SSPX Fallout and Catholic Infighting w/ Michael Hichborn

A single decision in Rome can light a fuse across the Catholic world, and that’s exactly what happens when the SSPX consecrations collide with papal warnings and a decree of excommunication. With Rob away at a family funeral, we take a hard look at why this moment is hitting so many people differently: some feel vindicated, some feel betrayed, and plenty feel stuck between the Catholic instinct to obey the Pope and the lived reality of deep Vatican confusion.

We walk through the core questions without pretending they’re easy. What makes a command lawful, and why does that matter even when Church leaders scandalize the faithful? Were the consecrations strategically avoidable, and what would a transparent, public negotiation with Rome have looked like? We also unpack the practical anxiety many Catholics feel about sacramental life, especially confession and marriage faculties, and why vague language and sloppy governance can “cast doubt” even when the underlying sacramental theology is sound.

From there, we zoom out to the bigger crisis: Vatican double standards, the post Vatican II revolution in Church culture, and the grim data showing widespread rejection of core Catholic beliefs. But we refuse to let outrage become the point. The deeper fight is for charity, sanity, and salvation. We talk frankly about why sedevacantism can poison the soul, why Catechism 675 helps frame the “mystery of iniquity,” and what it looks like to resist errors without jumping out of the Barque of Peter. If you’re trying to stay faithful in a time when everything feels like a battlefield, we end with a simple plan: stay awake, watch, and pray.

If this helped you, subscribe, share the episode with a friend who’s struggling, and leave a review so more Catholics can find it. What’s the clearest line you think Catholics should not cross right now?

Transcript

Cold Open And Rob’s Absence

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Ew gross.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

We discovered we discovered last episode that Taffy spends more making those intros than we make on YouTube.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

He's like paying tokens for those.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

I'm I'm looking at this going, when did you guys set up cameras to capture me last Saturday night?

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Oh man. So all right, so for anybody that doesn't know, Rob is off tonight. He is attending his uncle's funeral. Um, he's got some pretty wild battle stories that he had to endure while going there. So I'll I'll wait for him to come back and tell those. But he was texting me relentlessly today, just furious with some of the things that went on at this. Um, you know, when you're dealing with a funeral that you don't have any say in how things go at a you know a Novus Ordo parish, things always get a little dicey. So I'll I'll let Rob share what he's what he wants to share. But I posted a video of them singing on eagle's wings that Rob sent me today. It's pretty bad.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Um that was that was his uncle's funeral.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Yeah. Oh he was he was so he was just beside he was just like, I just want to get out of here. This is so terrible. But um, yeah, and we we bailed on doing a show Thursday because um the consecrations had just happened and we just spoke about the SSPX, like two shows in a row, and I was like, what are we gonna like? What are we going to just repeat the same things we had just said the past two episodes? So we figured we'd take a step back and let the dust settle a little bit and then maybe regroup this week and then revisit it. But Rob wasn't able to make it tonight, so I figured you would be a good person to have on.

SSPX Consecrations And Papal Authority

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Um, and just kind of watching the reaction in Tradland has been interesting because I didn't think this would be as big of a deal as it is. I kind of thought this would just be business as usual, but it seems to be affecting a lot of people, and a lot of people taking hard stances on it. What is your what is your takeaway from all this, Mike, Michael?

SPEAKER_02 3:30

From the SSPX stuff. So I'm I I have strong sympathies with the SSPX, very strong sympathies. I I always have. And the work that I've done over the last 15 years has only further increased my sympathies with the SSPX. Because the fact of the matter is there are horrible, horrible forces at work within the Vatican, within all sorts of chancery offices around the world, that are they're they're pushing something that is very clearly an anti-Christ agenda. Very clearly. Um but unless and until someone can prove that the Pope is that either the Pope is not the Pope, or that um there is a situation in which the Pope, you know, obviously there are times when you you're not required to obey the Pope on certain matters when it comes to uh, you know, if the Pope orders you to do something sinful, for instance. But when the Pope makes a lawful command and it does not violate faith or morals, I I I can't see how the consecrations are in any way licit and how the excommunications of the bishops, this doesn't extend to the to the rest of the SSPX, but I can't see how the excommunications of the bishops um were not valid, were not licit. Um there can be an argument, may maybe, maybe, mitigating the punishment, but it doesn't take away the validity of the excommunications themselves. And on top of that, I will add this when it comes to discussing the uh the canon laws of the church, at the end of the day, there is only one supreme judicial authority in the church, and that is the pope. And when it's the pope who has already judged, I don't know to whom anybody can appeal and say, Well, you know, we'll just wait this out, or we'll appeal to a higher authority. What higher authority? Who are you going to appeal to? So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Where he said, Um, I am begging you with the authority upon which I like with the authority given to me by Christ himself. Like it was like that line where he he's not just invoking his own human authority, like he's saying the entrusted to me as the successor of Peter by Christ himself. I implore you not to move forward with this. I might I'm paraphrasing there, I don't know if that's exactly what he said, but it was something along those lines. And I'm like, I just don't know how how somebody doesn't tremble at the thought of going against a command like that from the Pope.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

Right. And I I I'll also say this, and I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me, and that's fine. I look, there's plenty of room for us to agree and disagree on certain matters when it comes to this kind of thing, and and I think that we can all still walk away as good friends, uh, knowing that we are trying the best that we can in the time of crisis to save our souls and the souls of those around us. That's that's the law of the church, that's the uh the law of life. And if you're not living by that, then you've got a problem. But I think that the SSPX missed and and actually whiffed on a golden opportunity when Tuccio said, Hey, don't do these X, don't do these uh consecrations, let's talk. And a lot of people on the side of the SSPX say, well, it would have been a waste of time because they weren't allowed to talk about X, Y, or Z. But the minute Tuccio said, Hey, let's have a conversation, and he said so in public, this was a public invitation. Yeah, the public response should have been great. Here's our agenda for what we want to talk about, and you lay it all out. Now, what the SSPX put out with their declaration of faith, their credo, and all this kind of stuff, they were beautiful, well said, well written, perfect, no problems there. But why didn't you go ahead and say, and here are the problems that we have? Why didn't you go ahead and say, here's where we disagree and what needs to be hashed out and why we aren't moving forward, or why we can't move forward, or why we can't have a conversation, or what whatever it is you think that they won't talk to you about, air it out in public. And this is the difference between I think Americans and Europeans. Europeans play this diplomatic game and they want to sip their tea with their fingers in their air in the air, and and they want to be very nice and very congee can congenial and they want to have their their diplomatic relations and the way that they say things, and and that's all very nice. But uh, you know, I'm maybe I'm too American. I would walk in like a cowboy, flip some tables, and say, All right, fine, we're gonna have a conversation, and that conversation's gonna be over some brew, and we're going to have a tape recorder in the room to record the conversation, make sure everything is fully transparent, and uh, here's the agenda, we're gonna talk about these things, and you're going to answer these questions because these are the problems that we have. You know, if that's the way that they had approached it, I guarantee you that Tucho would have he would have backed down. He would have said, Well, uh, we don't uh we we can't uh have these conversations. Uh uh uh and that's where you push the advantage, but they don't think like that, and it drives me crazy.

Forcing Transparent Talks With Rome

SPEAKER_01 9:31

I I tell you, like the the whole thing is very confusing, right? Because you're it's like the Catholic instinct should be you want to be loyal to the Pope. You want like that's just it reminds me of what it must have been like for the people coming out of the council when they introduce the new mass, and you have the like the Catholics who are just going to mass their whole lives, and all of a sudden things start changing, and they're caught between this do you follow the Pope? Because the Pope is is you know, he's the Pope, right? Do you follow the Pope is giving his okay to this stuff? Do we stick with him? Because there's been countless situations throughout history where everybody who goes into schism, or everybody, whether it's the East or whether it's the Protestant Reformation, where everybody that leaves has their reasons and thinks they are justified in their conscience because what they see as this is clearly a violation. It's like the church has always been described as those who are in union with the bishops who are in union with the Pope. Like that is the church. And you know, to see a movement like this, it's like, yeah, there are clear things that they're bringing up that I 100% agree are major issues that need to be dealt with. But I don't know how you deal with those separated from the church, you know. It's I I don't know, I don't think it's an easy answer. I really don't. And I I I do understand why people are taking the side of the society, and I do understand why people are taking the side of the I I understand both arguments. I think they're both really good arguments.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

I just don't know how you hash that out and and well, to to play the side of the the SSPX for a moment, they don't see themselves as outside the church. Yeah, they see themselves as still having a conversation while inside the church, even though the Vatican is pretending that they're outside the church. That's that's their approach. And that, you know, okay, fine, there's a little bump in the road, but uh, you know, this is where the Vatican has kind of painted itself into a corner because what they do is they say, oh, well, you know, nobody is outside the church, we're all going to be saved eventually. Um, it doesn't really matter what you believe, except if you're an SSPXer and then you're going to hell because you're a schismatic and you're a damned schismatic. And that's the way they approach things. And and of course, the SSPX is going to look at this and say, You I can't take you seriously. I understand that. So when it comes to the the the approach, I saw somebody comment earlier. They said, um, you know, when I said they should have had that conversation and just said, okay, here's the agenda and here's the tape recorder. The response was, yeah, but that never would have happened. And my argument is make it not happen. You approach them and you put them in the corner and you make them have to pull back or have to reign.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

When are these conversations happening? When are we doing it? Let's do them publicly.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So you you force their hand instead of going ahead and walking away and saying, Oh, well, I've already had the conversation in my head, it's just never gonna happen. So we're just gonna walk away. That's dumb. I'm sorry, that's dumb. They should have forced the Vatican's hand because if the Vatican invites you to have a conversation, you say, Great, we're ready to have that conversation. Here's the agenda, and let's make sure that it's fully transparent. We'll have a tape recorder in the room so everybody knows what was discussed, and we'll we'll publish a uh a transcript afterwards. And then the Vatican says, Oh no, we don't want to do it that way. Well, then how would you like to do it? You explain it to us. So you're you're forcing their hand, and you do so every step of the way. You keep pushing to until you get the answers that that are clear and concise and absolute. But if the Vatican says we don't want to have clear answers, well, then you have your answer and you can parade that around and you can say this is the essence of the crisis, but instead they walked away. And I I really take issue with that.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Yeah, I'm ho uh yeah, you hope that some time goes by and these excommunications are lifted again. I mean, it happened before, but I don't think we're ever going to see another Benedict. I mean, not ever, but you know, I don't see a Benedict on the horizon. Like Benedict is the one who lifted the excommunications and tried to reopen talks with the society and stuff like that. And it's just, I don't know. This is it's kind of not and and and I'm watching the way the the people are reacting to people's positions on this too. Like I'm seeing everybody calling Taylor a grifter, right? They're like, Taylor's a grifter. He was on their side a few years ago, and now he's changing. I think it's like the opposite of grifting what he's doing. He spent the past 10 years building an audience sympathetic to the society, basically, right? During COVID, he's going to a society chapel, he's building an audience that is very sympathetic to this Unite the Clans idea. And this happens, and he comes out and basically alienates a significant portion of his audience by by taking a strong stance on it, you know. It's not even something I'm willing to do, but I'm for me, it's not about I'm not willing to do it. It's more like I'm I'm not sure, right? I still don't know. I know that I'm not a member of the SSPX. Like, I not I know I can't be a member of

Confession Faculties And Doubt

SPEAKER_01 15:00

it, but like I don't attend the chapel, right? And I am I'm just going to be honest, I don't think I would go to a a society priest for confession anymore because of this, right? Because confession requires the like local jurisdiction, it requires the local ordinary to give jurisdiction for that. Now, Francis is the one who it's so ah man.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

So Father Gerald Murray had a uh he he came out and and he was against the uh the uh consecrations, he made it very clear that uh if the if they went forward with the consecrations that they would be excommunicated latte sentencia, and you know he's he was very adamant about that. But then when the uh the decree of excommunication came out, and everybody said, Oh, well, see, the uh they can't officiate marriages, that's gonna be uh invalid, and and they can't hear confessions because that's now invalid. And he looked at the decree and he said, actually, that's not true. He said, It was the Pope that issued the decree that allows the SSPX to hear confessions and to validly convene marriages. It takes a pope now to undo that. It's it's not something that can be delegated, and it certainly can't be arrogated to a uh a footnote in a um in a decree of excommunication that has to do with individuals. What's that?

SPEAKER_01 16:26

I hope that's correct, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:28

Like for me, it's the thing. It's like you know, this is the problem, and and I posted this on X. If it weren't for incompetence, the revolutionists in the in the Vatican would have no competency at all. Yeah, and and that's really where it is. Tucho, he uh in in writing this decree, and in fact, in writing anything that he's written, has proved himself to be a great revolutionist and a lousy theologian and a lousy canon lawyer. The the man couldn't think his way through through a basic theological textbook uh that touches on very basic things. He doesn't want to speak in absolutes, he doesn't want to give any kind of total decree on on what the uh the church says one way or the other. So when it comes to uh when it comes to understanding what his role is, I don't think he even really knows. He he's more interested in writing these these graphic pornographic books for for uh the theologian students.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

That's the thing, like like that's what's so crazy. Like we are we are going on the word of these men who you know are just so despicable, and you and you're like, I just I just keep even okay. So look, I know I know you said that. I know Father Gerald Murray saying said that. I know Michael uh Matt Matt Gasper's saying, correct. Since a Pope, since Francis granted the faculties for confession, only Leo can revoke those faculties, and such revocation needs to be explicit. But I I'm just I'm not even it's not even that I believe that they're invalid or anything, it's that they they they did cast doubt. Oh, sure, sure. Like they they they did the the work of casting doubt in people's minds, and the and that's the most horrific thing about this to me is that there are tons of people who just go to the society because it's the the the best option they have to be Catholic. And they're not um they're not they don't they don't they don't have a schismatic mindset or anything like that, they're just going there because that's the best option they have to raise their family in the faith, and they're just doing that. Now, for someone like that, like their the validity of of their confessions are cast into that. I don't I don't know. It's just I I just hate the whole situation.

Revolutionaries Running The Machinery

SPEAKER_02 18:50

Once again, this is how you have to understand this is how revolutionists work. If you've followed the history of revolution since the French Revolution, what happens is you get a bunch of people who have no experience in governing whatsoever. They don't understand how laws work, they don't understand how how economy works, they don't understand any of it. And they go in, they take over a government, they execute everybody who is already there, you know, whether it's you know, physical execution or they throw them in prison or they exile them or whatever it is. They take over and then they put their buddies in key positions. And they say, okay, Frank, you're gonna take over this position because I need someone who's loyal to me who will go ahead and do what I want them to do. Uh, you don't actually have to know what you're supposed to be doing, just make sure that all the what whatever the machinery is, make sure all the people are doing the stuff right and and you report to me and you do what I tell you. And as long as Frank is loyal, well, that's great. He's gonna do a good job there in that position. Then you put Joe over here, and then you put Bill over there. And all of those revolutionists, they're running the machinery of the church or the machinery of the government, but they have no idea how the how the government runs. Uh if you've if you understand a mutiny, okay?

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

A mutiny on board a ship, you know what happens? The mutineers take over the ship. They think that they understand how a ship is supposed to be run, but the fact of the matter is the guys that take over only understand the job that they ever had. They don't know what it takes to command a ship, they don't know what it takes to lead or how to navigate because it was the captain that was navigating. Now they've got to figure it out on their own and they don't know where they're supposed to go. So this is this is how revolution works. And it it takes over. Uh, everybody cheers and says, Hey, we've got we've got control and command now. Now what? And then they don't know what to do, and they turn to whoever the leader of the revolution was. He doesn't actually know how to navigate or or point in in the right direction or or send control signals over to the other ship. He doesn't understand all this. So now he's stuck too, and he has to make it up on as he goes. That's where we are in the church. We had revolutionists take over the church, and now they've put people into key positions that have no idea how the how the church is supposed to run or what the apparatus is supposed to do. And they're they're floundering. Tucho is floundering, Roach is floundering. Uh, we have this stupid, insipid dicastri called the the Dicastri for Integral Human Development, which is effectively the Catholic campaign for human development on steroids. And what are they doing? They're out there parading a bunch of communists in the middle of the Vatican and saying, hey, isn't this wonderful? We want these popular movements that are a bunch of commies. They're a bunch of devil worshiping commies, by the way. And uh, we're gonna bring them in and we want the church to be more integrated with them because that's great. Uh except it's not.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

This is this is actually how how I see it, how how it happened. It was like they got a couple of uh especially. During the the revolutionary years in the 60s, they had several men in high positions of power who were clearly gay, who elevated other gay men to positions of power, and they and it became a gay club. Right now, now you think too. It was probably, you know, a place where they could go and live a chaste life, something like that. What happens during the sexual revolution is these men are acting out on it. You hear about it happening in the seminaries, they're watching filth in the seminaries. But once you have men in positions of power who are with this proclivity, they then find out what other men have this proclivity and they elevate them. And then those are the guys who get us. And we essentially have a bunch of gays running the church at this point. Like that's that's where we're at now because of that. But this is why I still think the Holy Spirit is protecting the church, because if it was up to these men, they wouldn't have women priests in, they would have gay marriage passed through. I really do think the Holy Spirit is still protecting the church from them crossing these boundaries. It's like even when Francis was in the ultimate revolutionary, all the things he wanted to do, even with um with allowing this the civilly divorced and remarried to receive, he had to put it in some footnote. He couldn't actually make it like he was challenging. You know, it had to be some eighth eighth footnote in this paragraph of the Amoris Letiti. He couldn't actually get it done because I don't think I think I think he'd be struck dead before he could.

Vatican Double Standards And Communion Claims

SPEAKER_02 23:53

Yeah, well, we have here uh one one commenter, Anthony and Michael, please help me with this. How is the papacy okay with the Anglican church and not with the SSPX? How is that dynamic different? And and you know what? That's that's essentially the same question I've been asking. Um I don't understand how the how the uh the Vatican can turn around and say, Well, we're we're actually in communion with Protestants. Uh wasn't it it was either Pope Leo or or it was Pope Francis, one of the two. I think it was actually Pope Leo who said um we're already in communion when he was talking to a bunch of Protestants. Well, if that's the case, then what's the purpose of of evangelization? What's what what's the point of trying to bring them into the fullness of the church? And if that's the case, then what does excommunication mean at all? So I I I don't get it. I I don't understand this pussyfooting around and and trying to uh uh play patty cake with a bunch of proddies and then say, you know, if you're trying to hold to the teachings of the church as they've been held for 2,000 years, somehow you're out. Uh look. But that's just it.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

It's it's because if you do hold to the traditional teachings of the church, you believe in extra ecclesia nulla sales, and if you believe that, then you can't have the humanism. So they almost have to excommunicate the trash, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:15

What a logical fallacy. Think about what you just said. Yeah, you don't believe in ex ecclesia nullosalos, uh, or you you believe in execlesia nullusalis. So you believe that those who are outside the church are are now um no longer going to heaven. So that's not with the program that we want, which allows for people who are not in communion with the church to go to heaven. So therefore, now that you are against our program, you're outside the church and you're going to hell. Yeah, except that you, the church person, believes that that's not I know it's absurd.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

It's it's a it's a nonsensical position that they take, but but that is how they see it, right? They do see it as the like the trads are the obstacle to unity because it's a false unity, like you the one of the scariest things during the Francis papacy was this idea of communion with these other groups and actually having intercommunion um liturgies with non-Catholics, and it's like that would be mass sacrilege on a level that you would think that God would have to strike us, like like you would just to to allow that many people to eat and drink the Lord without like I you would just think that like I mean it's I don't know. You think I mean there's such mass sacrilege going on already, though, because the majority of people that are going to mass don't actually even believe the Catholic faith. It is it has become this social club. It's just look, it it's for guys like us and the people watching the show, like this is the stuff that breaks our heart, right? Like you're looking at, especially when you go back and you see for anybody who studied church history and you saw what the church was capable of doing, the church, when it was at at its at its best, was able to transform the pagan world, like to go in, and as the Roman Empire is collapsing, you have Pope Gregory the Great stepping up and taking over the functions of the Roman Empire, essentially, and giving grain to the poor and getting the aqueducts running again, and he like the church literally becomes the new Rome, which is how like the papal states develop and stuff. Like the Papal States developed because the Pope was filling the function of the Roman Emperor in the West, because the Roman Empire moves to the east, the barbarians come in, and everything's falling apart in the Western Roman Empire, and the Pope Pope Gregory was like super wealthy, he donates all his all his uh wealth to the church, he gets elected Pope, he's like horrified by it, but then he goes and he steps up and he becomes the Roman Emperor essentially, but without an army, and he just threw acts of charity and he fixes everything. And when the church is at its best, that's what it does. And when the barbarians come in, they convert the barbarians, right? Because they're so like taken back by what what what they're witnessing, and ever since I mean, I don't know, we've been we because Rob and I have been going through these papal encyclicals from basically after um, like basically the 18th and 19th century popes going, you know, going from Gregory the 16th, now we're in Leo the 13th, and just seeing these men fighting against liberalism and communism and all the things that the modern church holds up as good, right? Like religious liberty and all this stuff. They're warning us that these are the things that are going to lead to the downfall of your society, they're going to lead to the downfall of everything. And now the modern church holds those things up as the ultimate good, and it's just it's a contradiction that some people are seeing, and they're just like, This doesn't equate, this isn't. And some people come to the conclusion that this is that the church is defected or something's so broken that they have to go and form these other communities. Like, I understand why people come to that conclusion.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

I just it's a scandal. What they're doing is a scandal. Um, you know, you can you can commit scandal without losing your authority. That's that's entirely possible. It happened, it's happened over and over and over throughout the history of the church. I mean, for crying out loud, uh our Lord told Peter himself, you are a scandal to me. So even Peter, the very first pope, was a scandal. So don't there's there's nothing there about that. But I there are two comments here I want to address real quick. Drew Black says, Michael, are you a schismatic? Do you believe the Pope has this authority? I am not a schismatic, and and I'm certainly not a uh a sede vacantist. I I believe that the Pope is the Pope, and I believe that he has authority to do what he did. And I I think I'm pretty sure I said that at the very beginning, that he did have the authority to enact excommunications. But there is a proper approach in some respects, like with the um the validity of the marriages and the con the confessions, there's there's a proper approach that has to be conducted in order to make sure that something is clearly taught or clearly decreed. And if he doesn't follow the formula, well, then it's not necessarily uh a decree because he there are some things that he can't simply delegate, he there are some things he has to do himself. Um, so no, I'm not a schismatic, and yes, I do believe the Pope has authority. And I do want to address Fed Calderon, who said, Whoa, whoa, I'm a proddy and I like you, Michael. So yeah, no offense. Well, what when I talk about proddies, I'm talking from the position of the church.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Fed's barely Protestant, don't worry. Fed is barely Protestant. He's been going to Latin mass once a month, he's meeting with a deacon now. He's like, he's so on his way. He's I I give him like a few months before he's but he'll he'll maybe maybe not this coming Easter, but the one after he'll definitely be in the church.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

So I I want to I want to address something that you said though, because you were talking about the the incongruity of what we're seeing in the church, how they're I mean, for crying out loud, we've got traditionus custodus, which stole the traditional Latin mass from uh quite honestly millions of Catholics around the world. You have um it also took the uh the other traditional rights away from traditional Catholics, and you have this clampdown on uh on what traditional Catholics, faithful Catholics believe and are professing, and they're telling us to shut up. And at the same time, they've got this synod on synodality pushing LGBTQ XYZ, whatever. They've got um the they're pushing women's ordination, they're put and these are in official church documents, official church documents that are written in crayon font, by the way. So, you know, there there's the there is definitely an incongruity going

Surveys Show A Collapsing Catholic Mind

SPEAKER_02 32:06

on. And to your point about how faithful Catholics or many Catholics that are going up there and receiving communion or do so sacrilegiously, I do I want to go through a few uh numbers that I wrote about in my last newsletter. In 2024, Pew Research conducted a survey of Catholics in six South American countries in the United States asking about support for artificial birth control and women's ordination to the priesthood. And according to the results of the survey of all seven countries, an average of 76% said that the church should permit the use of artificial birth control. Furthermore, the average of all seven countries said that 65% believe that the Catholic Church should allow women to be ordained as priests. That's more than half. Um, you have a situation where the Catholic Campaign for Human Development has distributed an estimated $280 million to Marxist pro-abortion, pro-LGBT, and contraceptive spreading court uh organizations since its founding in 1969. In 2019, a poll conducted by the Public Religion Research Institute found that 68% of U.S. Catholics are, quote, more supportive of transgender rights. And the poll averaged support for rights like uh transgender serving the military, being allowed to use their preferred bathrooms, and serving as elementary school teachers. And then in 2023 to 2024, religion landscape studies uh conducted a poll that showed that 74% of Catholics in the United States believe that homosexuality should be accepted by society, which is up 16 points from the 58% indicated in 2007. And the same study indicates that 70% of Catholics support same-sex marriage, which is up 13 points from uh the numbers indicated in 2014.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

So did you see this? Did you see this? Um, real quick, I want to I just want to say something. Um uh well, two things. Yes, we do have sponsors for this show. I'm gonna get to the sponsors in a second. Uh second, tonight on locals. Uh somebody wrote uh somebody wrote an article about Father Maudsley that we're gonna discuss on locals tonight. That uh I've been thinking about for a couple of days whether I was going to address it or not. Um, but I I mean I've I've really really been thinking about it and what I should do with it. Um, but I I I I think that I think it was calumny what was said about him. So I'm going to address it. And um, so if you guys want to join us on locals tonight, that's gonna be our local show. Um, but this here says Catholics were asked if a fellow Catholic could do or believe the following things and still be a good Catholic. Share who said yes. So if 80% of Catholics said you could be a good Catholic even if you don't go to mass. 83% of Catholics said you could still be a good Catholic if you're using birth control. Uh 64% of Catholics said you could still be a good Catholic if you're not following the teaching on abortion. 45% said you could still be a Catholic if you reject transubstantiation, and uh 34% you can said you can reject the resurrection and still be a good Catholic. These are insane numbers. Yep. Like you're talking uh, and if you go through the I was actually surprised at how um little how how little the numbers have changed, though. It's kind of interesting, right?

SPEAKER_02 35:32

This is from um uh what's the first figure from what year?

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Oh, figure out um 87.

SPEAKER_02 35:41

I think those oh yeah, about 87, I think is the years. Okay, so 87 to 2017.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

So it started in 87, it was 72 percent, it went up to 80 percent. Everything went up, which is crazy because I mean you would it's just nuts, but it was you know, it did culminate during the Francis pontificate. So, yeah, it's like it's it's going along with every every single stat you were just talking about.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

So, you know, that's and that's that's really kind of the problem, and and this this points to the SSPX's point, which is there is a crisis, and there's absolutely a crisis, and instead of focusing on the problems that are gonna lead souls to hell, what are they looking at? Well, we need to have more inclusivity with women, we need to give women more positions of authority within the church because we just don't have enough there. Uh what? How is that gonna fix anything for one thing? Second of all, whose soul is that gonna save? Thirdly, uh, how are you gonna focus on this and have nothing to say about those who are out there parading through the streets with hammer and sickle flags saying that we need to have a communist revolution to implement impose socialist ideologies throughout the country? Uh I don't understand how they can look at how can they possibly look in the mirror and take themselves seriously? And how are we supposed to take them seriously when they approach things that

Vatican II Fallout And Trad Backlash

SPEAKER_02 37:05

way?

SPEAKER_01 37:05

It's it's crazy because um you you look at the trad movement and you part of because I see like a lot of the normie Catholics have a lot of hostility towards Trads, and you see them they think that all we're doing is sowing disunity, and all we're doing is uh criticizing the Pope, and people are gonna leave the church because of the things we're saying. But a lot of these people are new Catholics or they're young Catholics, and they've only had an experience of Pope Francis, maybe they converted under Pope Francis, and they don't like they don't it it's almost like they they've never really read anything from before the council, so they don't really see how disjointed some of this stuff stuff really is. But what it what it comes down to to me, it's not like it's like it's not the trad sowing this disunity, it's the things that are coming out of the Vatican, like the craziness. Like, are we supposed to not say anything? Are we supposed to just go along with it because the Vatican's doing it? I don't understand what we're supposed to do. I mean, there was clearly a revolution at the second Vatican Council.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Yeah, that's very obvious.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Like, there's a there was a revolution that happened at the second Vatican Council.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

Well, and that revolution clearly happened from the very moments the council was it was announced. They had schemas set up for the council that were gorgeous, that would have actually handled a lot of the problems that are taking place now. But instead, the Germans went in and said, We don't want this, we want to get rid of this so that we can talk about the revolution that we want to have in the church.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

Benedict was at the forefront of it. Benedict, when he was Cardinal Ratzinger. I mean, he was Bishop Ratzinger or Father Ratzinger during the council. He was one of the purities. Yeah, and it's like the uh the thing is that council should have addressed the sexual revolution, that council should have addressed communism, that council should have addressed a number of issues that were facing the because the council should be called to to like to face the challenges that are being faced during that time when it's being called, right? When when you go back to Trent, they're facing the Protestant Reformation. When you go to Vatican I, they're dealing with the state trying to throw the church out of every, you know, you're dealing with all these different uh states are trying to overtake the church's power, right? They're trying to uh uh what's what's the proper wording for it? Like they're trying to uh basically like take like have authority inside the church, like and separate the the temporal from from the spiritual. So the church is addressing that and they're putting a clarity on what the Roman pontiff's role and authority is, so they hammer out people's infallibility and things like that. Then you come to Vatican II, and there's all these insane challenges that are facing the culture. You have technological revolution happening, you have the sexual revolution happening, you have communist revolutions happening. That's what the church should have addressed during that, and they just dropped the ball completely.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

Yeah, no, you're you're absolutely right. You know, it's you pointed out that um one of the problems now is that we've got we've got confusion coming from the Vatican. The Vatican is has basically thrown all sorts of things into chaos, uh, compounded or compacted by you know the SSPX coming out and and moving forward with consecrations when they were told not to. So now you've got this this weird dual uh issue going

Charity As The Missing Proof

SPEAKER_02 40:43

on. And with the decree, you've got tons of Catholics pointing fingers at each other, yelling at each other, just saying the most horrible, terrible things to each other. And I I'll tell you, uh I try not to engage it. I I will say what I think, and I'm I'm happy to just kind of sit and rest on my words. And if somebody wants to have a conversation with me, we can have a conversation. But I'm paying no attention to any of the vitriol and the spit back and forth and the accusations and the shouting and everything else. There's no sense in it. And and it reminds me of the letter that Tertullian wrote, where he was, it was his apologia. And and what he said, I want to read to you what he said. He was talking about Christians, Christians in the uh the first century of the church. He said, For they are not taken thence and spent on feasts and drinking bouts and eating houses, but to support and bury people, to support to supply the wants of boys and girls destitute of means and parents, and of old persons confined now to the house, such too as have suffered shipwreck. And if there if there happen to be any in the mines or banished to the islands or shut up in the prisons, for nothing but their fidelity to the cause of God's church, they become the nurslings of their confession. But it is mainly the deeds of a love so noble that lead many to put the a brand upon us. See, they say, how they love one another, for themselves are animated by mutual hatred. They are uh how they are ready to even die for one another, for they themselves will will sooner put to death, and they are angry with us too, because we call each other brethren, for we are for no other reason, as I think, than because among themselves, names of consanguin consanguinity consanguinity are assumed in mere pretense of affection, but we are your brethren, brethren as well, by the law of our common mother nature, though you are hardly men because br because brothers so unkind. And and so this is difficult language, but what he's saying is that Christians are said of by pagans, say of the Christians, see how they love one another, see how they love each other, see how they treat one another, and they support one another. It was the pagans who recognized that in the Christians, and that was one of the reasons why they converted. And what he's pointing out is that the pagans would say that of us because they don't treat each other well, they don't support one another, they don't encourage one another in in the good. And and here we have in the church not just a rebellion at the top, but now a revolution among ourselves, and we're all fighting, we're all pointing fingers, and and which one of us is actually encouraging somebody else in the in the salvation of their own soul?

SPEAKER_01 43:47

This is this is why I draw the line of sedevacontism. Like, I want nothing to do with the Setees because I do think the Sede's have a vile spirit amongst them. They're not trying to figure out the the the crisis, they're just if you don't agree with. them you're part of the novosordo sect like part part of the thing that upset me with the homily that the priest who was consecrated gave where he was like the the the modernist church um destroys all sources of grace it's it it's it's a desert like some of the things he said were just like so so vitriolic and it's just like I man like it it's hard to say that they're not separating themselves out as the true church in some of the some of those things you know so that's a little worrisome and um yeah Matt I I do want to get to this too like how do we unite the clans at this point because like if if especially with this this seems like this dividing line's coming in like I don't know it's just it's a it's a it's a hard it's a

Why Sedevacantism Warps The Soul

SPEAKER_01 45:00

hard one for me. Yeah but I I draw the line instead of a contism for sure. Like I think something happens to a person when they decide that Leo's not the Pope that I mean people that people that I was good friends with that I've watched when they come to that conclusion no longer want to speak to me anymore because I didn't come to that same conclusion. And it's like a recent thing they came to and then all of a sudden they just want to all they want to do they just are obsessed with the novus ordo sect and the novus ordo child and it's like that's where their brain goes it's not it's not I don't see how it's spiritually healthy in any bought into the Hegelian materialist dialectic just like the left did and that's really the problem.

SPEAKER_02 45:43

The whole purpose of revolution and and this is something that's lost on most people they don't understand Marx and they don't understand revolution they think revolution is all about a power grab. That's not really the point. The point of revolution is to take your eyes off of Christ and to take your thoughts away from salvation that's the point of revolution and with a revolutionary spirit what happens is you wind up arguing the issues to the exclusion of salvation and then you lose your your your charity uh our Lord said in Matthew 18 uh in those days charity will grow cold yeah and here we here we are at the point where charity is not just cold it's frozen and people don't have charity for one another they're they're willing to say some of the most terrible things about each other without really thinking about the consequences. Look you can disagree with somebody and you can think that they're wrong and that's fine but you're not going to do anything to save their soul one lick if all you're gonna do is point a finger at them and tell them either they're stupid or hateful or evil or or some other thing. What you need to do is say you have a soul to be saved just as I do. And I'm afraid for your soul because you have crossed a line I can't follow.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

And and if you think that I'm going to lose my soul because of the position I've taken well then let's have a conversation because I think that if if you are really inspired by the zeal for the salvation my soul then then we should have that conversation. You should be talking to me not as if I'm a child and not with put downs but with an encouragement that says I am afraid for your soul and I love you for who you are. I love you for the soul that God desires you to be that's that's the what I found over here.

SPEAKER_01 47:31

Look at how this has fixed my life because I'll have great price right like I I found that that's why like when I when I came to uh when I started attending the traditional liturgy and I start start studying traditional Catholicism like it transformed my my home life it transformed my spiritual life it transformed everything.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

So that was like this thing that I wanted to give to others right I'm I just see something dark in people that come to the conclusion that the church basically affected you know because they can be they can become so blinded with anger that they become self-righteous to the point of saying I'm right and you're wrong and your wrong idea is damnable and I'm not gonna touch it because I will then be infected with your damnable idea. And and that's that's not the right way to think if if you think in terms of love if you think in terms of salvation first of all coming to the conclusion of set of contism isn't going to save a single person's soul. No it's not now you can say this ideology is right or wrong this particular uh moral thinking is right or wrong and in that case yes we should have a conversation about those things because morality does indeed set a path for a soul to go to heaven or hell and right theology actually can set the path for for which direction you're gonna go also but when it comes to the governance of the church having a discussion about who's in charge and and and you know that's not first of all it's not our job.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

It's not our it's not our position to think that we have the right disposit the the right to say well I don't think that this person's the pope anymore and therefore I don't have to follow him well instead of saying we don't have to follow him you should be saying there are certain lines that the pope himself can't even cross and then make a determination based on that instead of saying well he's just not the Pope anymore and make it so easy to just walk away is it possible to believe Leo and the Pope Leo is the Pope and the DDF is wrong to pronounce the excommunications just like King Saul was wrong to hunt down David but was still king and David still obeyed David still obeyed Saul right David was still his loyal servant like uh first Peter 2 18 servants be subject to your masters with all fear not only to the good and gentle but also the froard for this is thankworthy if for conscience towards God a man endures so sorrows suffering wrongfully for what glory is it if committing sin and being buffeted for it you endure but if doing well you suffer patiently this is thankworthy before God. Like you have to obey unjust rulers too and let you know in all things but sin.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

Yeah and and let's let's make this point and take the analogy further king Saul was rejected by God as king and what happened he went Samuel went up to him and said you've been rejected as as king and Saul got on his knees and he begged him for forgiveness and he said please don't reject me and he reached out and he grabbed the uh the mantle uh that saul wore or that samuel wore and it tore it tore signifying the break just like the the uh tapestry in the temple tore so it's it's symbolic of his losing his kingship he was no longer king at that point and he begged Samuel to go down and make sacrifice with him with the people so that the people wouldn't know that he'd been rejected by God as king so Samuel paused for a moment and he said okay fine I'll go down with you and I'll make sacrifice and I won't tell anybody that you've been rejected as king. So Saul was no longer king and he had the appearance of the kingship. In fact Samuel helped maintain the ruse that he was still king but then he went out and he found Daniel and or David rather and he anointed David and so therefore David was the rightful king after that point. But it didn't come until after Saul had been rejected by God as king and then even there David maintained the ruse. He he called him the king he knew he was anointed he knew he was the king but he wasn't going to stand up and go against Saul. He allowed Saul to remain in the position that he he had usurped so if David's not going to rise up who are we to what position do we have and in fact there were others there in in David's camp who said hey we should go out and kill him and David said if you do that I will kill you this is a good question.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

Do you think this could be the first schism among the next if the Sonatal church changes magisterial teachings like something like James Martin stuff then what look at the direction the church is going.

Catechism 675 And The False Church

SPEAKER_01 52:33

See I still think they will push to do that as far as they can but I still think the Holy Spirit protects the church and the church can't like I still think the church can't defect. And I also think we are dealing like I think this is the mystery of iniquity. I think we are living through the catechism paragraph 675. Like I really think that's where we are right now. And people uh hang on let me actually pull it up like I want to pull this up like this is this is what where I think we are right now. Before Christ's second coming the church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the mystery of iniquity in the form of a religious deception offering man an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist a pseudo messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and is and of his Messiah come in the flesh. The Antichrist deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of mil millenarianism especially the in the intrinsically perverse political form of a secular messianism so that's going to be eventually the antichrist is going to come and there's going to be a political thing but this deception that's going to come it's going to be this religious deception a pseudo messianism presenting I mean if you I I bring it up all the time but Ticonius talks about the mystery of iniquity is that the mystery of evil grows within the church and that even the leaders of the church will disguise themselves as Christ and they will say things that like like this whole thing with immigration and caring for the poor and it sounds it's sound it's like it's like my sheep know my voice right like because the a shepherd the reason Jesus talks about that is because shepherds in those days would go and disguise their voices because the sheep actually did know their shepherd's voice. So while the sheep were sleeping and the shepherd would fall asleep somebody would come in disguise their voice as that shepherd and try and lure his sheep out. That's what you're going to have is false shepherds mimicking something that sounds like pseudo-messianism trying to lure us away and away from tradition away from what we know to be true but that doesn't mean that they don't have the the rightful authority to pronounce judgment in things like an excommunication or things like that. It's just we have to flee the mystery of iniquity.

SPEAKER_02 55:28

I want to read to you this came from a flyer that the AUSCP the heretical association of us Catholic priests put out um I collected this from one of their annual assemblies a number of years ago and what it says is very very telling this is this this is a direct quote this is what they said quote theologian Herman Popmeyer views our Vatican II era as quote an unfinished building site end quote similar to the building of a new St. Peter's basilica during the 1500s construction began with the laying of a foundation and erection of pillars and walls around the old basilica of Constantine that prepared the way for roof and dome to complete the new outer structure that took decades. Meanwhile the old church stayed in place conditioning the progress of the new once the external structure was complete the old basilica was removed similarly Popmeyer sees Vatican II as designing a new church to develop around the existing one the council's 16 documents laid a new foundation the four constitutions on liturgy church revelation and church in the modern world are the new pillars consolidating and finishing a renewed church inside and out continues. Like St. Peter's in the works of previous councils it is a work of centuries much remains to be done we are all part of the renewal team this divine project building up the people of God for our era is the challenge of our time AUSCP's mission is to help us all respond to that challenge by working together as one and building a structure on top of the structure.

SPEAKER_01 57:17

Yep building a false church on they're literally putting out saying they want to build the ape of the church.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

Yep they just said there and if you read Anne Catherine Emmerich she talks about how the they're building the the revolutionists were trying to build a church around the existing structure of the church and they were trying to pull down the old walls uh I mean this is this is prophecy playing itself out right before our eyes so what we have to realize is the revolutionists have have made their plans known to us we can watch them as they're working we can see who they are because they're putting forth ideas that are completely inimical to actually the the actual teachings of the Catholic Church so yes we have to resist those who are trying to destroy things there we have to resist those who are trying to institute some kind of new church I mean do you realize the song that they put together back in those days uh for the call to action con conference the title of the song was Sing a New Church. They wanted to sing a new church into being and and the one of the frames is let us bring the gifts that differ and in splendid varying ways sing a new church into being one in faith and love and praise this is their anthem they want to create a new church they want to make a new church in their own image and likeness so you know yes there is a revolution and it's going on but that revolution is going on in the belly of the church it's going on in the bark of Peter and if you jump out well now you're jumping into the world and you're leaving the bark. You can't leave the bark. You have to fight to take it back.

SPEAKER_01 59:02

Cyril of Jerusalem said this uh we who are of the church seek the church's sign. The savior says and then many will fall away and will betray one another and will hate one another in Matthew 24. And uh Cyril says if you should hear of bishops in conflict with bishops clergy against clergy and flock against flock even unto blood do not be troubled it has been prophesied fix your attention not on the events themselves but on the fact that they have been foretold that is almost word for word what our lady of akita said.

Stay Awake Watch And Pray

SPEAKER_02 59:33

Yep bishop against bishop and clergy against clergy and Cyril of Jerusalem is prophesying that about the end of the world and our Lady of Akita comes and tells them you're about to walk embark on a time you're gonna see a deluge greater than the time of the flood right and you're gonna see bishop against bishop and and and clergy against clergy so my my advice and and I kind of want to rest on this my advice to everybody is to follow the same instructions that our Lord gave to the apostles the night of the passion stay awake and watch and pray that was it three instructions stay awake watch and pray so our Lord was the one who was enduring the passion and the the apostles they were agitated because our Lord was agitated because he was concerned because he was upset they saw his bloody sweat and they they didn't know what to make of it. They were they were you know they didn't understand what was going on and of course then the uh the soldiers appeared and Peter started a kerfuffle and and decided to get into a fight with them but the fact of the matter is there were three instructions stay awake watch and pray and we have to pay attention to what's going on we have to make sure that our children aren't being indoctrinated in this false doctrine that's being erected around us and and we know exactly what that false doctrine is anything pushing LGBT ideologies pushing women's ordination pushing I mean avoid the communion in the hand avoid the eucharistic the extreme you know the extraordinary eucharistic ministers at church avoid all of those innovations that have popped up into the church try and instruct your children to receive reverently to be present in the mass and to understand that their prayers as they're participating in the mass mentally is a full participation. They don't have to be part of the you know glad handing that goes on in the middle of mass and and if you can avoid it avoid those stupid and sipid prayers that came from the 60s and 70s. My gosh those are sick so there are things that we can do and and there are ways that we should be avoiding the stuff that's going on in the church the revolution in the church without having to be too concerned and too worried about the revolution itself because the structure of the church is a little bit outside of our grasp we don't have the ability to effect change there. So if you get agitated by this stuff of course you're gonna get mad at your neighbor and you're gonna get mad at the people around you don't do that. Don't fall for it it's a devil's trick so stay loyal stay faithful to all of the core teachings of the church really get to know them understand them read the church fathers to your children they'll get it they'll understand it's not hard so stay there and and I I think that paying too much attention to the fighting and the the back and forth and and getting agitated is it it's only going to draw you further down into that trap as well and and I I say avoid it avoid Babylon.

Sponsors Locals And Closing

SPEAKER_01 1:02:47

Yeah I think that's a good way to to to to wrap this up and rest on that I want to throw uh shout out to our sponsors before we go and also on locals tonight we're gonna discuss this father maudsley article I'm going to defend my friend Father Maudsley against this I think I think it's calumny and I think it's a pretty I think it's a pretty gross accusation being thrown at him so we're gonna see it in the comments that's not actually Father James Martin SJ is it it can't no no no excommunicated um yeah so if you guys can go to uh knicknack.com uh use code ab25 for 25% off your first purchase code ab10 for 10% off subsequent purchases knick knack is they're knicknack lozenges for those of you who like pouches or zin or anything like that switch over to Knickknacks they're awesome uh knick knacks is a nicotine product it is an addictive substance it is not a smoking cessation device but it certainly does help with quitting smoking so I don't care if we're allowed to say that I say it uh also go to black monk rosaries get 10% off an amazing black monk rosary by going to blackmonkrosaries.com use code avoidingbabylon and get 10% off your black monk rosary black monk rosaries are serious man they weigh like 12 pounds each they're very good for weaponry uh things like that so if you ever gotta hurt someone uh is there any super chats I missed let me just double check and see uh somebody said behold the fruits of Vatican II uh this one I think we missed uh no they find out in blackmail the one we were talking about the gay priests elevating gay priests um and then obedience to pope in terms of immigration in europe I know many on the right are beginning to see the church as the problem I think I think the the the church's um stance on immigration is one of the most dangerous things it is playing with right now I just do it it's like you they're they're allowing yeah by knickknacks get you a wife bobby bobby's uh marrying my sister michael bobby bobby i met in italy uh when i went to italy on pilgrimage and uh we uh we we hit it off so well he's basically become part of my family he will be my brother-in-law by year's end it looks like so that's the other thing we're gonna be planning Bobby's uh bachelor party I wonder if we can do something where uh we throw it up to the public if anybody wants to come I don't know what we're doing yet we'll figure it out it won't be anything raunchy don't worry but uh all right so we're gonna go over to the other side we're gonna discuss the Father Mosey thing also there's uh something about uh a woman coming out saying that her 28 year old son still lives at home with her and I'm interested to see your parenting strategy on something like that because of the of the way the economy is now what your thoughts are on allowing your children to live in in your home to a stage that late so maybe we'll talk about that too. All right guys I'm not Rob so I'm just gonna start killing feeds uh and if you guys are not on locals you're not gonna see the remainder of this show but that is uh where we discuss the things we don't like to discuss on YouTube. We will see you guys next time okay YouTube is