Michael Knowles Just Betrayed Catholic Teaching on Israel

“Can we please be normal?” That’s the line we start from, because the Israel conversation rarely stays normal for long. We take a careful look at Michael Knowles’ comments and the broader conservative Catholic media instinct to treat the modern State of Israel as a purely political alliance, detached from theology. We don’t buy that split. When people invoke Scripture, prophecy, covenant language, or “God’s promises,” they are already doing theology, even if they call it foreign policy.

We’re joined by Catholic State (Justin) and American Reform to sort out the terms that constantly get blurred: Israel as a people, Israel as a land, and Israel as a modern nation-state. From there we dig into Romans 9–11, what Saint Paul actually means by “the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable,” and why Catholic fulfillment theology doesn’t fit comfortably with Christian Zionism or dispensationalism. We also discuss Vatican II language that’s often cited in online debates, plus earlier Catholic sources that shape how many traditional Catholics think about covenant, promise, and continuity.

The conversation turns to a newer pro-Israel Catholic advocacy effort asking the Pope to clarify whether the founding and endurance of the State of Israel should be read as a sign of providence. We explain why that question isn’t neutral, why “right to exist” can smuggle in theology, and how Catholics can reject sensationalism while still refusing a forced, two-option script. If you want a more precise, historically grounded way to think about Catholic teaching on Israel, the Holy Land, and political theology, this one will challenge you.

Subscribe for more long-form Catholic conversations, share this with a friend who argues about Israel online, and leave a review with your biggest unresolved question after listening.

Transcript

Setup And Guests

SPEAKER_05 0:31

We had to go uh old school because I refuse to let Taffy's intro play tonight because I hated it. Um we got a special show for you guys tonight. I uh I had tried special show with a topic we've never done before. Well, the thing is, I it's important that we stay brushed up on our anti-Semitism, Rob. You can't let this stuff I thought it was like a bike. You just hope that's not like riding a bike. You have to remember all the stuff so that you don't fall out of you know, out of sync with it because it's been a few a few months, I think, since we've discussed this. And uh there's some stuff in the headlines. Uh I saw there's two things I want to discuss tonight. One is obviously in the title, Michael Knowles has had some pretty ridiculous things to say, but I want to try and address those things uh properly from like a Catholic perspective. And then there's this new group that just sent a letter to Pope Leo. Um that is uh let's see, this this new group formed. Uh Catholic group asked Pope Leo to clarify church's stance on Israel, and they put this whole thing out. And I have a couple of clips of this guy that that is like the head of this group. He's been on, I think, with Tim Flanders, and I think he writes for I think he helped write the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible. I'm pretty sure he was a part of that. So I wanted to get American Reform and Catholic State on uh when Rob was in Florida, but some uh Michael Hitchbourne came on instead. So uh I thought tonight would be a good night to get you guys on. So how how are you guys doing? I'll start with uh Catholic State.

SPEAKER_07 2:13

Hey, what's up? Yeah, doing great. Just thanks to thanks you guys for letting me be here. Unfortunately, my camera's acting gay tonight, so um I had to put this pick up instead, but uh yeah, I'm happy to be here, man. Thank you guys. Pro probably the Massad attacking your camera every single time, man.

SPEAKER_04 2:32

Only Anthony's microphone was acting like that.

SPEAKER_05 2:35

American Reform. Oh, wait, is my oh you know what? The mic did it did it reset, Rob?

SPEAKER_04 2:41

No, I was just making a joke that we don't want to hear you.

SPEAKER_05 2:44

Oh, no, no, but my mic reset. But uh, and then American Reform, who is if you guys are not following him on Twitter, he's like one of the uh one of the best resources for like pre-consciliar papal statements on this topic, papal statements and just magisterial statements on this topic. Um, yeah, welcome to you too, man.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Thank you both for having me on. It's it's a real pleasure. And I was thinking that one day you're going to have me on to talk about perhaps race, but I'm happy we picked a less controversial topic in the mind of the public. So I'm excited to be here today and thank you again.

SPEAKER_05 3:22

Before we jump into it, um, Catholics, your name's Justin, right? Catholic State?

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:27

All right. So Justin, are you a convert? Are you a revert? Are you a cradle Catholic? What's your story? Like a quick synopsis. I don't want to do like conversion stories.

SPEAKER_07 3:35

Yeah, no, no, no, no. I I converted a little over eight years ago. Uh actually on Pentecost. I uh grew up in a Protestant family. My dad was Baptist, but he never practiced. My mom was Methodist, so I got I got baptized when I was like nine, and then my mom stopped going to church after my grandma died. But um, yeah, then like it was like I became an atheist when I was a teenager. Then in my 20s and 30s, I I was like just chasing women, so I didn't care. Um, but like then in my early 30s, I I I started like realizing that the world around me was degenerate, and I was a degenerate too. And I started like uh looking for Christ, and then um, you know, I went to different Protestant churches, and then I eventually my friend who was also an atheist came back into my life and said, uh, be Catholic because uh the Protestant churches are stupid and or they're all fake and gay, and none of them are right. And um, lo and behold, he was right, and he also told me about the Jews and all that stuff. So uh he uh he red pilled me on a lot of stuff. So here I am. What what year was that about? Uh eight years ago. That was two that was right after Trump got elected, like late 2000 or 2016. No, no, no, that's 10 years ago. 2018, yeah. 2018.

SPEAKER_05 4:53

So you so you come into the church and you get you get red pilled on this topic, like right as you're jumping in.

SPEAKER_07 5:00

Oh yeah, I was I was red pilled. I was already primed and ready to go, though, because like I said, I was red pilled on a lot of things, like the you know, women and you know, all this other stuff. So it was really kind of like I was at this point where like I could see everything around me like was like the world was degenerate, and I was a big part of that. I was a degenerate man, and then I was like, okay, what is why is the why why are things the way they are? What is what is the problem and what is the solution? So I was ready to see the problems and the solutions, and I found the solution was the Catholic Church, and then you know, the the on the opposite end, the problem comes from the synagogue. So I was I I I kind of accepted both truths pretty quickly because I was already I was already at that point. My friend just kind of came into my life and he just kind of tipped me over the edge, basically.

SPEAKER_05 5:52

Yeah, there's there's only there like a couple of years ago, I guess. Like there really was only a few people talking about this topic. You were one of the first channels that I caught on to talking about this stuff. So I was watching your your stuff from pretty early on, and I really did like when you started showing your face, and then unfortunately your camera crapped the bet on us tonight. But uh and then uh American Reform, you're also a convert, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:18

That's right, and I'll keep it short because I'm still trying to preserve my anonymity, but I am a convert, 27, married, I was raised Lutheran, standard conservative upbringing. I actually was a big fan of Daily Wire back in the day, watched it watched Ben Shapiro almost religiously and enjoyed Dennis Prager's fireside chat. And then it was actually Michael Knowles of all people, watching his show in part helped me to convert. And so I have a great deal of respect for a lot of the things he does, but obviously he has a big blind spot on this issue.

SPEAKER_05 6:51

Yeah, that's the thing. I I like Knowles too, right? And um, this show isn't gonna just be like dunking on him. The the the point of of this episode is kind of the point of all of our conversations that have to do with the Daily Wire, in that I feel like they are presenting a kosher version of Catholicism that makes it seem like it's orthodox, but in a way that makes it acceptable to support the state of Israel. So they separate the theology from the political and they try to act like you know, support supporting supporting the state of Israel is not a theological issue, and deep down it is definitely a theological issue, to the point where I actually don't like when people refer to this as like anti-Zionism. Because I think it saying anti saying you're anti-Zionist, in in a way I agree with the Jews in that you're kind of like cloaking anti-Semitism, you know what I mean? Like, not real anti-Semitism, because obviously not anti-Semitic, but it if you understand what Zionism is, you understand that this isn't just a political problem, this is a theological problem.

SPEAKER_07 8:03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Um, it really is, and that if I if I may, it it obfuscates the real theological opposition between the true Israel, which is to say the Catholic Church, and then the faithless synagogue. And I'm sure we'll get into that, but it's it's really that obfuscation, and and Zionism is merely an outgrowth of rabbinical Talmudic Judaism. And so if you're only saying one without the other and not realizing what it proceeds from, you're you're missing the big part of the picture.

SPEAKER_05 8:34

Yeah, for sure. So part part of the inspiration for even doing this episode today was a couple of uh Twitter posts you had made where um you you pulled up a couple of things that Michael Knowles said. And that was the was this a recent episode of his?

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Yes, it was actually the episode he did yesterday that I happened to catch.

SPEAKER_05 8:54

Okay,

Sponsors And Why Daily Wire

SPEAKER_05 8:55

all right. So, Rob, which um all right two sponsors first. Uh yeah, actually, uh I actually just found more tangerine knick-knacks in my drawer, which I'm super excited about because I thought I was out of these. So I found I'm out of my um I'm out of my grapefruit, which is my favorite, but tangerine is my second favorite. It's like uh I don't know if you oh never mind. I was gonna uh go into a stupid comedy bit, but um knick knack.com, go to knicknack.com. Nicknack is a nicotine product, it does contain nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive substance. If you go there, use code AB25%. You will get 25% off your first purchase. Use code AB10 for 10% off subsequent purchases. I don't have a Knickknack success story tonight. I will have one for next episode. Rob Connor caught me off guard here. Also, go to uh Black Monk Rosaries. Uh Black Monk Rosaries, they are if you're not playing praying black on your Black Monk Rosary, you're not on the team. Go to blackmonkrosaries.com, use code avoidingbabble on, and you will get 10% off a checkout. Uh Father's Day did just pass. It would have been a good gift for that.

SPEAKER_04 10:10

That's one way to sell them.

SPEAKER_05 10:14

Fourth of July. It's a great way to sell celebrate American reform. Get your Black Monk Rosary. Um okay, Rob caught me off guard. You didn't know you were doing a show tonight. Are you kidding me? All right, all right, all right. Um, the problem with Knowles types is that they invert the relationship between politics and faith. Simply put, they are not integralists. Okay, so we'll get into a lot of stuff. Um, all right, so AR,

Knowles Clip And Be Normal

SPEAKER_05 10:40

what clip do you think we should start with?

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Let's start with the first one at the top of that thread.

SPEAKER_05 10:46

Okay, so that's the one with the because I sent them to Rob differently, probably. Rob, that's the yeah, so the first one I sent to the Yeah, yeah, okay. So this is Knowles on his show yesterday, and he was kind of presenting the all right, so American Reform's point is that he's presenting this dialectic where it's like um uh only the crazies are against Israel. And he starts he starts like sh showing the people who support Israel and pitting it almost like the same conversation we see in politics where it's Democrat versus Republican. So let's play the clip real quick and then we'll we'll do some commentary on it to Israel to see how they're gonna fight.

SPEAKER_07 11:32

So the narrative is one thing, but action I think is even more important.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

I have one request of people uh across the political spectrum, especially when it comes to the issue of Israel. Can we please be normal? Can we please be normal? Can anybody in politics just be normal? You can support the state of Israel as I do without being a total weirdo about it. It's possible. I know it seems like it's impossible. You either have to believe that Israel is the worst rogue state, puppeteer of all the nations, protocols of the elders of Zion, you know, uh occult, demonic monstrosity. You either have to believe that, especially if you're a podcaster, or you have to believe that Israel is the most blameless nation, the greatest state above all rules and order that we must all serve as slavishly as possible, and no one can ever criticize it. Those are the only two options that you're allowed to hold, I guess, in public life. But what I would suggest, humbly, is that you just be normal for like five seconds. No, wait, wait.

SPEAKER_05 12:35

I do want to actually get to something about that, right? Because there is something about those of us who jump into this topic. We've talked about it on this show, where it seems like anybody who does touch on this topic, they just that's all they see is Israel behind every single thing. And it's it's a it's a delicate topic, right? Where it's kind of one of those things where once you start noticing, you start noticing it everywhere. So it's kind of hard for it to not become your whole personality where you're just ranting and raving about this stuff. So is he does he have a point about just being normal? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 13:20

Yeah, I'll go.

SPEAKER_05 13:21

Uh I think I think just so we don't have this happen every time. What we'll do is Catholic state, you'll go first every time, and then American reform will come up right now.

SPEAKER_07 13:29

Okay, yeah. I think there is some truth to what he's saying is as far as being normal, because there are people that like they go to to different extremes, like he said, like in fairness to steel man his argument. Yeah, there is a certain normal, like there is no normal, but there it's framed in a way, the dialectic is framed in a way that there can't be normalcy, right? I mean, that's that's the problem. It's the dialectic is framed in a way that you can't do it because it's either it either seems that you have to have this position that theologically the the state of Israel has like some sort of theological. I mean, and that's what the Zionist movement was. It was a theological movement. They they were secularists, but they wanted to have they had this theological understanding that the Jews had a right to this land, right? So you have this one side of the dialectic that says you either believe that or you don't, right? And then from there, you can't you can't have this middle ground of like, well, I don't believe that they have the right to land, uh right to the land, because but I do believe they have a right to exist. That doesn't even make sense, even from a natural law, a natural law point of view. Let's take theology out of it. The natural law point of view, no state has the quote unquote right to exist except for that it can protect itself militarily, right? It's it can protect protect itself politically and militarily, right? The reason the United States, quote unquote, has a right to exist, which it really doesn't, even though we're all Americans here, but even the only reason it does is because it can protect itself militarily and politically as a state. If it didn't, it wouldn't, it wouldn't exist, it would be get invaded, it would get destroyed, right? It would whether with from within or from without, right? And so, like with this for this framing, they're doing is they're they're creating this the this false dichotomy is that you have to believe that the Israel has a right to exist, but the only way you can believe it has a right to exist is if you have some sort of theological backing behind that. So if you if you frame if it's framed that way and it's inherently framed that way, you're going to get some extreme positions, right? And they're going to be related to the Jewish question. There's no way to there's no way to unpack this without without combining the two.

SPEAKER_06 15:47

Yeah.

unknown 15:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Building on that, what Justin put there was was very good. And what you see is that Knowles is creating this false dichotomy between two different positions, and he takes what he claims is the moderate one, which is to say being generally neutral towards Israel, if not pro-Israel. And he says that he's pro-Israel. The problem with that is that he does not admit all of the positive theological data that actually militates against the very existence of a quote-unquote Jewish state in the Holy Land, which is distinct from the Jewish people going there and migrating. The issue with the Catholic Church and the Jews going there is they're having political control and sovereignty over the Holy Land. And that's what Pope St. Pius X maintained in his dialogue with Theodore Herzl. And so it's that positive theological opposition, which is informed by the witness doctrine of St. Augustine, where you have the Jews there being a they're a wandering people perpetually dispersed, they're laboring under a curse, always protected, of course, from unjust reprisals and extrajudicial judicial violence. So that's that witness doctrine. It's a protection, but it's also protection of Christian societies against their pernicious influence. And so that's the framework that Knowles does not bring into this conversation, which is why he claims that the moderate, ostensibly Catholic position is to be pro-Israel, but against the excesses, against the most radical excesses of Zionism. And so that's that false dialectic, and you can see it play out right here.

SPEAKER_05 17:21

Yeah, I've I've I've said I've come to the conclusion through like the different episodes we've done and studying this topic. Like, there's there's

Is Israel Political Or Theological

SPEAKER_05 17:30

actually no way in which a Catholic can justify support of like morally, we cannot justify support for Israel in any shape or form, whether monetarily or that doesn't mean we want their we don't it doesn't mean we we want any kind of genocide or ethnic yeah, like nothing like that. We're not even not not even saying that you have to support anybody uh getting them out of the land. I just don't think we can support them having a state and most especially in uh that land there specifically. I I do wonder if after World War II they wanted to form some kind of a state that wasn't an ethno state. I don't know, I don't know, like could they have formed any kind of state outside of that land? I don't even know if they could have done that, but the fact that they're in Palestine like that, it's it has it has biblical implications, it has theological implications, especially when you start getting into Jesus when he says in Luke that the the land of the the the the jerusalem will be trodden underfoot by the gentiles until the time of the gentiles will be there there was an autonomous Jewish oblast uh established in Siberia, but surprisingly, no one wanted to move there. No one wanted to move to Siberia. Well, that's that's part of the problem, right? Like the the way that they did come into the land had a lot to do with them bribing people to come in, and not even just the way they got people out, was they had to kind of force Jews to come in there because nobody even wanted to go there, nobody wanted to move into the middle of the desert in these Muslim lands, even when they started to form. So um, all right, so let's let's play the other clip too. I want to because I uh there's a ton of things I want to dive into on this topic. It's been a while since we talked about it, and you really do need to like refresh yourself on on the arguments because they're coming, they're coming out left and right the way the way the conversation is happening in the public. And then we have uh this this letter that was sent to Pope Leo where there are now Catholic organizations like Hebrews for Catholics and the Phylos Project, who are not only battling so-called anti-Semitism, like they're actually arguing from a Catholic perspective that the Jews coming back into Israel is in some way a fulfillment of God's promises in a positive way, which is utterly insane.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Anthony, if I may, just mention one thing before we go to the next clip, because what you said was spot on. The Jewish people did not cease to be a messianic people when they put our Lord on the cross. That has continued to the very present. And so the reason what you're seeing correctly, there are enormous theological implications for their being in the Holy Land, because we know that they are going to be the ones that are going to be ushering in the empire of Antichrist, whom they consider to be their Messiahs. And so it all goes back to our Lord and the cross, his messianic dignity. And by their rejection of that, they are objectively striving, and Father Fahi has done obviously great work on this, but they are objectively striving to create this messianic global empire by which they rule over all the nations because they still think that they're God's chosen people.

SPEAKER_05 20:53

Yeah, in a way, them calling it Zionism was them showing their hand, right? Because if they didn't, if it wasn't called Zionism, they might be able to cloak it in just a political, a political, uh, whatever, a political party or a political state. But the fact that they even call it Zionism, it's because the theological implications of the promises that were given to David on Zion that have to do with God promising his Messiah who will gather his people on Zion for them to rule over the nations with an iron rod. And we know that that is fulfilled in Christ through the church. Like the the the the all the all the nations, when Christ is lifted up on the cross, they all come to worship Christ, and they don't see that as fulfilled there. So they're looking for a carnal way of reading the scriptures where the Antichrist, their Messiah, will come and rule the nations with an iron rod. Not in that we'll all be Jewish, in that they will subjugate us under Jewish authority.

SPEAKER_07 21:58

Right. Yeah, that's exactly. What our Lord said in John 5 43 is like you're not going to receive me, Jesus Christ, you'll receive the Antichrist. And Second Thessalonians 2 says the same thing. And like, I think the thing that these Christian Zionists don't understand, like, yeah, they are helping bring uh bring upon the end times, they're helping bring upon this messianic, what they believe to be this messianic age, like American Reform was talking about. But this messianic age isn't going to be this thousand years, this millennium of peace or whatever. What they're bringing on is this Jewish antichrist who's going to persecute Christians. It's going to be like the ancient church where Christians are persecuted. They're going to bring upon what are called the Noahide laws. And I know you guys have probably heard this, but in case your viewers haven't heard, one of the main like the Noahide laws on paper look just kind of like almost like the Ten Commandments in a sense, but they're not. You have to deny the Son, Jesus Christ. And like a lot of modern Jews will deny this, but if you read their essentially what what's what they would consider to be like their church fathers and doctors, like Maimonides and others, they say that. In the end times, that it will be illegal for Christians to publicly worship Christ and they will be um beheaded.

SPEAKER_05 23:50

Yeah, we saw this in recent videos coming out of Israel when they were going into Lebanon, they were destroying crucifixes and things like that, right? Like they they consider a crucifix idol worship. So it, I mean, it's it's gonna be hard to talk about this without getting into Noshrahatate and the idea that the modern hierarchy is presenting to us that Jews and Muslims worship the same god as us. So, like we're going to have to get into that stuff. I want to definitely discuss eschatology with you guys and American Reform. You're the one who asked me or told me to read Cardinal Manning's book, uh the uh uh The Present Crisis of the Holy See. Um and his his whole thesis had to do with the Antichrist coming, and he kept because he he's writing in the 19th century, and he's trying to he's trying to see a situation where an antichrist figure could come and gather the people back into this land.

SPEAKER_04 24:49

He like he didn't even he's writing literally while Zionism is is being developed.

SPEAKER_05 24:55

So he he's seeing it and he's looking at it and going he can see a figure coming about that will then call the people in. I don't think he foresaw the people coming in before this figure came. So those are things we're definitely gonna get to. All right, let's play, let's play the next clip.

SPEAKER_04 25:12

Is it the next clip in that thread?

SPEAKER_05 25:15

Yeah, like you gave there's like four things in that uh it should be the third reply in that same thread, right? Okay, yep, got it.

End Times And Christian Zionism

SPEAKER_02 25:31

And uh they they we we recognize that the leading anti-Israel voices are radical leftists, people like Greeta Thunberg and all of the radical left going back many decades. You can you can just be normal about it. But the the less normal we are about it, the worse the situation is gonna get. That's that's basically my view. The the low but solid ground of alliances and international relations is gonna bode a lot better for the United States and the state of Israel. Uh the the hysterics and the insistence upon uh uh adopting novel theological stances that is only gonna help America's enemies and Israel's enemies for that matter.

SPEAKER_05 26:11

Okay, speaking of racial and errors, and um that's interesting that he calls them novel theological errors because like his position is a novel theological position. It's new in that um I I I think uh man, I don't want to I don't want to say uh the I don't want to say because I don't want to bring it up as if I'm I'm bringing something up with this person again, but um there was a there was a comment made on another show one time where there was a priest on there, and he had said the reason the church couldn't support uh Israel moving back into the lamb is because um they hadn't had like uh enough time there and there was not and it's like no, actually, the church had always understood the theological significance of Jews gathering back into this land, that it has this theological implication, that when they're gathered back in, like when Rob and I went through the Romans 9 through 11 series, what we what we learned is that every single time God dispenses the the Jews from the land, right? Like he dispenses the Israelites from the land and he you he disperses you mean he disperses them from the land for a reason, and it's and they get dispersed amongst the Gentiles, and then he gathers back them back in. And the last time he gathered them back in was because Christ was coming. And the idea that they've been dispersed amongst the nations for 2,000 years, and now that they're gathering back in, implies that God is going to use them for a purpose again, and that purpose is not because he's fulfilling some promise in Ezekiel and that it's a good thing, it's the purpose is the end of the world. I don't see any other way to see that.

SPEAKER_07 28:05

Yeah, I mean, you know, you're absolutely right. I mean, like people, these neo-Judaizers, as I call them, they always say, well, you know, like the saints do say, and the church fathers do say that in the end times it does seem like uh there is this uh opinion that the Jews will be gathered back in, you know, and but it's not a flattering thing, it's just it's not, it's they're being gathered in so they can build the like what American Reform and I we've been saying, they can build the Empire of Antichrist, that's why they're being gathered in, right? It's not so yeah, you know, you could look at maybe if you want to be hyper optimistic, you can look at it from a glass outfull uh way and say, well, once the antichrist comes and does his uh persecution for three and a half years after that, Christ is gonna come. So that's the good news. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that that is the good news, but there's gonna be lots of persecution of Christians, and even if the Antichrist only uh has three and a half years that he actively rules, even up to that point, there's still going to be a lot of persecution of Christians, and there's gonna be a lot of degeneracy. I mean, and that's what we've been seeing for the past century or so as leading up to the empire of antichrist. We've seen like the the fall of Christendom and the the rise of heresy, and like as as the as the synagogue rises, the church falls, right? So we've seen a like a rise of heresy and apostasy and schism in the church as this as the as this synagogue has risen and as the empire of antichrist gets built. So yeah, in the end, everything is good, but until that happens, there's a lot of bad stuff, and we can't just be blind and stupid and and in a big bunch of idiots and act like that's not gonna happen until then.

SPEAKER_05 29:53

Yeah, and and on and on top of that, it's that's how the like the the dispensationalists see it, right? That they want the Jews to gather back in because they think that will hasten the coming of Christ. Like that's uh yeah that's a psychotic way to view this. That's yeah, like you're you're medieval.

SPEAKER_04 30:10

They think they're gonna be raptured, they don't think they're yeah, they do.

SPEAKER_05 30:13

That that's exactly what they think, yeah. Yeah, and you're bringing about the reign of antichrist, you're not bringing about the return of Christ. So go ahead, go ahead, reform.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

No, two things because I want to give Justin props because that term that he coined, Neo-Judaizers, it's perfect. And he had a recent video that covered St. Paul's epistle to the Romans, and he went over that. But when it comes to this idea of the conversion of the Jews at the end of the world, from what I can tell, that is the unanimous consensus of Catholic theologians. But what they omit, and this is really what it is, it's an omission. They omit that up until that point of conversion, there is going to be fundamental theological enmity between the true Israel, which is the Catholic Church, alone, to the exclusion of carnal Israel, which was cut off. When they rejected our Lord, they were cut off because they were unfaithful to the covenant. So that opposition is going to continue up until the very end of the world. And from the commentaries that I've read on the book of Apocalypse, it's going to be proximate to our Lord's second coming. So right before his second coming, you will see the preaching of Elias and Enoch, and they will be the ones to convert the Jews. So only up until that point will we see that.

SPEAKER_07 31:28

Yep, yep, exactly. That's exactly what's going to happen.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

And so I want to one last thing because Anthony mentioned towards the end of the 19th century, Cardinal Manning was horrified at the prospect of a large number of Jews gathering in the Holy Land. And so I just want to give one quote here. This is from Father Sylvester Barry. He wrote this in 1921. This is in the apocalypse of St. John, three sentences real quick. He said, Quote, Antichrist will establish himself in Jerusalem where a great number of Jews will have gathered through some such movement as Zionism. The vast majority of Jews have ever clung to the belief that God will one day restore the kingdom of Israel through a messiah, an anointed one of the house of David. When Antichrist manifests himself to those in Jerusalem with his lying wonders, they will immediately proclaim him as their king and messiahs.

SPEAKER_05 32:22

So, all right, so this is this is interesting. So uh uh Justin, you did an episode a few weeks, a few months back, I think it was, where you went through how the Antichrist will be Jewish, right? And part of part of what Rob and I were doing was like breaking down the 12 tribes. And all like all especially all the things that you were saying in that episode, it's like uh you were pointing out some really awesome things, like how um uh uh it's the antichrist is going to come from the tribe of Dan, right? So like when when when in the apocalypse, when it talks about like the the 12 tribes coming home, they leave the tribe of Dan out of it, and there's all there's all these different um prefigurements in scripture to show that the antichrist will actually be from the tribe of Dan, which would make him an Israelite, but that but not from the tribe of Judah, but he would present himself as from the tribe of Judah, right?

SPEAKER_07 33:19

Right, right. Well, I mean, but from from the church father understanding, like this whole distinction between Danites and Judahites being, you know, from the church father understanding, they would both be Jews. The church fathers, the church fathers did not have like this modernist, and I've seen it a lot in my comment section, this modernist thing of trying to break the Israelites and the Jews apart. They just they just said the Jews, right? So their understanding was uh yeah, and that does come from um it comes from Hippolytus, who was the uh he was actually a an antipope, believe it or not, but uh he he became a saint, but he was uh he was a disciple of um Irenaeus, who was uh um a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of Saint John the Apostle. But so it comes from the what I call the Johannine line of thinking, which is very like what which is where a lot of the adversist Judais stuff comes from. But yeah, it is it is kind of the earliest tradition that the antichrist will be a Danite. How they how how we would know that in practice, I would have no idea because people I've had thousands of comments that are just like, well, how do we know how would you how would we know that? Like, because the Danites either got dispersed or they got absorbed into Judea, right?

SPEAKER_05 34:42

That's why I even bring it up because in the way I've thought about it is not not that I know this, it's just that it's a possibility in my mind that because the the the ten northern tribes are so dispersed amongst the nations, they've basically become gentiles. That somebody that we don't even know is from the tribe of Dan.

SPEAKER_04 35:02

Like he could be a Gentile that could be an evangelical dispensationalist property.

SPEAKER_05 35:07

Yeah, it could be a gentile that is really the antichrist, and then he kind of like then he presents himself as the Jewish Messiah. Like, I I I I almost think it won't be simple for us to recognize the Antichrist, in other words. Like, it's not gonna just be like this formula where it's like, well, he's not Jewish, so that's definitely not him. Like, I think there's going to be something where we'll in hindsight, we're gonna go, holy cow, obviously this fit. But in when it's happening, just like all prophecy, you really don't understand it until it's fulfilled. That that's kind of the the the way I look at it. Like, I don't want to just have my mind set that it's definitely going to be a Jew that is gonna present themselves.

SPEAKER_07 35:47

Yeah, I mean, I I think that's fair. I mean, like, I think there's you know, a lot of people suggest like Trump, for instance. I don't I don't know if he fits. I mean, he doesn't have the uh the backing like you would think the antichrist is, he's got a lot of enemies, but it could be potentially somebody like that. That's a world figure that you know he became like the Jews they're not their whole religion is in non-sequitur, that's not very logical. And they they they like they would they would, I mean, the problem is with what you're saying would be the religious Jews, like the ultra-orthodox and orthodox, they're much more like they would not, I don't think they would recognize someone that's Jewish, that's not a practicing Jew, right? Yeah, that's yeah, that that would be my only response, the counter-argument to that.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Now, I think there there is a problem if you present, and Justin, I think, present it the right way, but if you present it as definitive, I think that would be a problem that would be excessive in terms of the certitude. But I think it's more than likely, and in fact, probably more than that. And and the reason is that religious Jews themselves are extremely racial, they're hyper-fixated on that, and so they will never accept a messiah who presents himself to them who is not actually Jewish by blood. That's fundamentally what they care about because their religion now, this is another thing people don't really people might know, but they don't really appreciate it. So the temple is destroyed, the priesthood is gone, they can no longer offer sacrifice. So it is fundamentally and essentially a racial religion built around their chosenness. They see themselves as uniquely the chosen people of God, and so that's one of the fundamental dogmas of the Talmudic rabbinical Judaism. And so if there's a Gentile that comes, they're gonna reject him and they're not going to be persuaded by him, I think, in the slightest.

SPEAKER_05 37:37

Yeah, I th that that's a really good point. Yeah, yeah, they because he has to be accepted as the Jewish Messiah, right? Like that's that's how he's going to present himself. So it's for him to be accepted by them. I don't I don't think a gentile could come in and pull that off. Like he has to he has to be he has to yeah, he does have to be Jewish uh in in on the surface at least. Like he has to he has to be at least surface level Jewish. And and you know, there's yeah, this there's a lot of a lot a lot of because there's a lot of shadiness about what even is a Jew ethnically, anyway. So yeah, I guess I guess they could be from the tribe of Dan presenting themselves. Yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_07 38:22

I mean they could it could here's an exception though. Here's an exception, like let's say like you know, like a Donald Donald Trump example, and I agree with everything American Reform just said, by the way. But like let's say like somebody was like Donald Trump or whatever, like he was a big you know leader and the Jews loved him, and then like he came somehow came up with a like everybody thought he was a gentile, but let's say he took a DNA test and he found out he was genetically Jewish, that that would work, that would fit, right? Like that would be like because again, they're so hyper fixated on race. They are like their religion is like exactly like American Reform said, a racist religion. They're so hyper-fixated on race that if they found out like this person was Jewish, they might like now. They they like the fact, like of course, there's the matrilineal line thing, and even some some of them are like has to be both matrilineal and patrilineal, like, but if somebody can prove they're racially Jewish, they that might that might work.

SPEAKER_05 39:21

Yeah, I th I think look uh Trump, I don't think is the antichrist, but I do think he's he's a type, like he's he's acting on behalf of Jewish interests in a way where he's definitely drumming up messianic fervor in the Holy Land. So I mean, I don't I don't I think he might be some kind of a a a prefigurement or or a or a foreshadowing of him or something, but I yeah, I first off I think he's too old.

Andre Acosta And Vatican II Debate

SPEAKER_05 39:51

He's too old. He's starting to get dementia, and uh yeah, I just don't see it being him. But um, all right, I want to jump into this article um because there is this group that is presenting um a letter to to to Pope Leo, and I want to kind of go through some of this stuff because these are Catholics, supposed Catholics. Actually, before we even get to the article, Rob, I want to give you guys a little precursor of who this guy is that's presenting it.

SPEAKER_04 40:19

I put two clips in there, Rob, of the guy underneath the article.

SPEAKER_05 40:24

Yeah, so play them in order, the first one I sent. This guy is um this is the guy who who organized this group. He's a supposed Catholic, he's a convert, he wasn't evangelical, but he spent a ton of time in Israel, and he's kind of obsessed with this topic.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Oh, an evangelical. And maybe I can ease into that topic in a biographical way as well, because I as I was still living in Israel, I returned to the Catholic Church in 2001 and 2002, and one of my initial questions was what is the Catholic position position on Israel? And at this point, I had a great love for Israel. And so, can I bring this love for Israel together with me in the Catholic Church? Is this compatible? Is this uh something I need to give up? Obviously, there were a lot of other questions related to that, but uh so I started reading um Catholic documents, I read the catechism, I read the trajectory of Catholic theology since the second Vatican Council. I went way further, of course, and I read about church history and the disturbing history of Jewish Christian relations. And and so looking at the catechism today and what uh Nostra Etate says, that's the uh the central document of the Second Vatican Council on the church's relations with uh other religions. And uh, the church certainly has uh changed very much in her attitude towards the Jewish people, much more echoing St. Paul now, Romans 9 to 11. The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Now, the church has been pretty prudent in affirming a theological role uh for Israel as a nation.

SPEAKER_05 42:12

St. Paul talking about the the the gifts and the calling and the promises are still are not revoked, right? And God never uh I have repeatedly warned Andre, the person in the clip, Josh, that the unanimous rejects it on various issues. He has ignored my warnings. Wow.

SPEAKER_07 42:34

He he he I've done the same thing. I've I've I've had run-ins with Andre before, and like I've I've tried to come up, try to approach him with all these the theological arguments. The only thing he's been able to do is just call me an anti-Semite and just blow me off. That's all he does. He's not he doesn't yeah, he doesn't have good faith when it comes to people like us.

SPEAKER_05 42:55

Not not in any way, right? And you can see he's coming in with this position that he wants to um approach this issue with before he even becomes Catholic. Like he's coming into the Catholic faith with this uh with this premise that he wants to figure out a way to make you know these the this acceptable. And he's he's behind a lot a lot of the a lot of the uh Hebrew Catholic stuff and things like that. So it's yeah, it it is concerning. So this is this is the guy who uh came up with this article. You want to play, I think I put a second clip in there, right? You did, yeah. Because that was pretty pretty wild what he says in this one, too.

SPEAKER_00 43:38

Real quick, he's he's very well connected, and you'll notice that what he said glibly was disturbing history, was actually Catholic tradition. Yeah, so that's just a passing comment, but that's how he characterizes Catholic tradition. And I'm really grateful for Joshua Charles for saying that because you look at the patristics, and Justin has covered this too, and you go all the way up into the modern period, too, there is this unanimous. Consensus and that's just being ignored.

SPEAKER_05 44:03

Yep. Yeah. Glad to see Josh in the comments chiming in.

SPEAKER_04 44:07

Um, you know, I while Josh is in the comments. I just want to say, Anthony, how absolutely despicable it was that you called him a pain in the ass in the last show. Stop. He is such a wonderful person. I cannot believe it. You called him a pain in the ass.

SPEAKER_05 44:23

Stop it. Stop. Rob, stop causing drama.

SPEAKER_04 44:29

Okay, are we ready for the next clip?

SPEAKER_01 44:35

The church recognized the state of Israel in 1993. So you might say it took him a while. And we know that if you go on the on social media and you follow traditionalist Catholics who are really holding the line of this old uh replacement theology, they're often going to quote Pope Pius X, who met with Theodore Herzl and said we cannot support this movement of return back to the land. Now the irony is that all these traditional Catholics, they're not citing the Magisterian, they're citing Herzl. So Herzl here is their authority. This is not an official teaching of the church, right? This is from Herzl's diaries. Um, but yeah, it took a while for the church because it's almost unavoidable this uh inter this interplay between theology and politics. At first, it's like, well, we can't support the Jews founding a state because now we're the true Israel, we're the new Israel, and and God is is done with the nation of Israel as a nation. But then the nation comes along and there's issues of international lines.

SPEAKER_05 45:45

We don't say that God is done with Israel as a nation well at all. Like we're saying they are a witness people, and God still does have them. Yeah, they are still a part of salvation history in that they will be gathered back into the land at the end of time, and then Elias and Enoch will convert a segment of them at the end of time, right?

SPEAKER_04 46:07

We're not saying he's done with them, we're saying they're gonna usher in the Antichrist.

SPEAKER_05 46:10

Yes, they're going to usher in the end of times, but also not just that, uh it was something that um when we had um Sam Shemoon on, that was incredible what he pointed out. How Apocalypse III is flipping the prophecy in Isaiah on its head, where in Isaiah it says, all the nations will come to gather and and bow at Israel's feet. And in the Apocalypse, John flips that around to say the synagogue will bow and recognize the church as the true Israel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

And and Justin, you can jump in right after this, and that's why you see that famous piece of artwork where you have the triumphant church and she's holding the sacraments, which were prefigured by the rites of the old law, and then you have the defeated synagogue, and she is blindfolded. That's the Ecclesia e synagoga. And so that's an extremely important.

SPEAKER_07 47:06

If you can find that, what is it called? Ecclesia Ecclesia, it's synagoga. Yeah, ecclesia. It's it's a statue of two women.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Um and then one other thing, just before we go over to Justin, what Dr. Acosta omitted here, and this is a standard traditional position on this question, the status of Israel after the rejection of Christ until their eventual conversion. This is Cardinal Fallhaber wrote writing in 1934. He says, quote, before the death of Christ, during the period between the calling

Supersessionism Florence And Romans 11

SPEAKER_00 47:40

of Abraham, the fullness of time, the people of Israel were the vehicle of divine revelation. After the death of Christ, Israel was dismissed from the service of revelation. She had not known the time of her visitation, she had repudiated and rejected the Lord's anointed, had driven him out of the city and nailed him to the cross. Last sentence here. Then the veil of the temple was rent, and with it the covenant between the Lord and his people, the daughters of Zion, received the bill of divorce. So that's what he omits, and that's Catholic tradition. You do have that expectation from Saint Paul and unanimous consensus of the fathers of that eventual conversion. But in that interim period, Israel has been dismissed. She has been rejected. Not because God was unfaithful, of course not, and that's blasphemous. It was because carnal Israel was, and what they expected of the Messiah was a temporal political ruler, a military figure, and they rejected our Lord who came in all humility, riding on a donkey in Jerusalem. And that's the tragedy of Israel. And Justin, if you want to pick up right from there, I just want to make that point.

SPEAKER_07 48:43

No, no, no, no, that's fine. Uh, if you don't mind, I want to talk a little bit about Dr. Andre for a second. Um, if I can. So, Dr. Andre uh says supersessionism is a heresy, in case you guys uh he he called it a heresy before. So here's the thing like what Josh Charles was saying is correct. It both uh the Council of Trent uh and the First Vatican Council say that we must believe the faith, like there's a consensus of the fathers on a matter of the faith as comes coming from scripture. We must hold that to be certain teaching, right? And when it comes to these these these things that we talk about, like American Reform and I talk about things like the enmity, the enmity of the Jews. Like I have every single church father and doctor on my website, ChristtheKing.info. Go to my website, you'll see all the church fathers and doctors there. I got them quoted, source incited, scholaries, scholaries, citations. Um, as far as the enmity of the Jews, as far as the fact that the the Jews killed Christ, um, as far as the fact that the old covenant has been fulfilled and the new covenant has replaced it. You can call it supersessionism, fulfillmentful uh theology, whatever you want. All the church fathers hold that. Um, and as far as the you know, as far as these the the thing is about the land promises, that goes into denying supersessionism, right? And that's why Dr. Andre has to deny supersessionism because he has to essentially claim that what that's what these dispensationalists do. And Dr. Andre is a dispensationalist, just like he's a Christian Zionist. What they have to do is they have to claim that there is still some sort of old uh uh a fragment of the old covenant left. And this goes, speaking of certain Catholic teaching, this goes against the dogma proclaimed in Cantante Domino 1442 under Pope Eugene IV, which dogmatically said that the Mosaic law, all the ceremonies, circumcision, everything, all the promises of the of the old covenant have been fulfilled, completed in Christ, and and all these the old fragments of the old covenant, the ceremonies, ceremonial law, judicial precepts, and even like the the mosaic law and everything are null and void, abrogated, they they can't be practiced without mortal sin, right? And that's that's dogma, and that's the problem with these neo-Judaizers, is they're denying the dogma of Florence, and they're also denying the unanimous consensus of the fathers on these matters, and that's why their theology is uh not only erroneous, it's dangerous and harmful to souls, and that's why people like me in American for reform have to push so harshly against it.

SPEAKER_05 51:32

Well, there's also something prophetic in that the first heresy was Judaizing and the last heresy will be the same, right? And the whole the whole idea that um that we aren't supersessionists is absurd because the Jews, as part of their punishment, Christ comes and he tells the Pharisees, you have filled up God's cup of wrath, and you have one generation to repent. And if you don't repent, not one stone will stand on top of another. And their dispersion amongst the nations is the same as Cain's dispersion. They they walk around the earth without a land, without a home, with the mark of Cain on them to show that they are descendants of Cain. And the whole point is from Genesis 3:15 that there will be enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. And Cain is the seed of the serpent, right? So they're dispersed amongst the nations for this period. There's nothing salvific about anything, they are absolutely cursed. It is God's judgment that comes upon them. When the Romans come in and destroy the temple, that is God's wrath and God's punishment. So even like the shady language that the that Noshr Tate uses by saying that we are not allowed to say that the Jews are accursed, it's like it if you believe that the old covenant is still valid, what they are under are the curses of the old covenant because they have not obeyed that covenant. So even by saying that God has not revoked his covenant, it's like, oh, if they still have a covenant with God, they have broken it and they are under the curses of those covenant, right?

SPEAKER_07 53:07

And that that was exactly the point I was making in my um the not dialogue debate, but dialogue with Gideon Lazar here recently was that um it that he essentially his point was that the fact that they're cursed, and he actually admits that they're cursed. We I don't know if you guys saw the dialogue, but he says the the fact that they're cursed, he believes he believes that means they're still in a covenant. And I was like, I was like, no, no, what that means is they broke the covenant. That's that's the whole point. The covenant is a contract, that is the terms for breaking the covenant, and God is eternal. So the the terms and conditions will be applied as long as the c as the contract is still broken, and like, and then this is what the church fathers have always said, but like the unfortunately, we're we're living in a world where people like you're not hearing this from the pulpit, you're not hearing this from the the Vatican, so people don't realize that this is what the church has always taught about these things. Supersessionism is essentially dogmatic, even if the word supersessionism wasn't uh defined dogmatically in Florence itself.

SPEAKER_05 54:16

What's super what's super interesting is that even in the we did the show discussing Scott Hahn and Gavin uh Gavin Ashenden, their conversation, and even in that conversation, like Scott Hahn is the most normy Catholic in like the in the in the in the you know in the mainstream. And even he says, like Jews that are under the old covenant, it's like being in a burning house, is how he described it. Like you're in a house that is on fire, you need to convert and come back.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

That is a good analogy, and to underscore the importance of Florence, obviously that's a dogmatic decree, but as recently as Mystici Corporis, and this is Pope Pius XII, in 1943, he taught definitively that the old law expired the moment the side of Jesus Christ, our Lord, was pierced, and then the new covenant was established in his blood. And so to suggest that the old covenant remains irrevocable as a path to salvation to God, the Father, as if you could have the Father without the Son, that is actually denying Catholic dogma. The old covenant was made void at the death of Christ, and theologians teach that with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, it became deadly to observe. That was a divine sign from God that his judgment was against Israel because of their unfaithfulness.

SPEAKER_07 55:40

Here's the distinctions. Here's the distinctions because the the promises, Romans 11, 29 does say the promises and gifts and the callings are to are irrevocable, right? Here's the distinction. Paul is not saying that the covenant is uh the covenant to the Jews is irrevocable. He's saying that the promises are irrevocable and they're fulfilled in Christ Jesus. So if the Jews, and this is the point I was making to Gideon Lazar, if the Jews want to receive the promises, they can. They merely have to convert to Catholicism. That's the good news. The evangelium, the gospel.

SPEAKER_05 56:20

What Paul is saying there is, I am a Jew. Of course, the promise is not revoked. I have received the promise. Amen. Yes, yes. Like Paul is saying, I am a Jew from the tribe of Benjamin. I have, of course, the promises are not revoked. I have received the promises, they are fulfilled in Christ. Of course, they haven't been revoked. I've received them. And the first Christians do start out as Jews. Pre Peter is preaching on Pentecost to the Jews, telling them, you who killed the prophets, you who crucified the Messiah, the promises are for you. And they all get baptized, right? So like this idea that there's anything salvific about the old covenant is absurd. Now, I will say, like Joshua Charles said here, like the Jews are still a covenantal people in that um, like in the sense that God has made promises of of to their nation, right? Like there are still things that need to be fulfilled to these people. It's just nothing to do with them being um it's it's it's all apocalyptic. Like, like all of those promises are about the eschaton and about the end of time, and it's about them finally recognizing that they did kill their messiah.

SPEAKER_00 57:38

Right. The same Saint Paul in the epistle to the Romans, where he talks about his love for his his countrymen, carnal Israel, he also gives a warning to us. I mean, we're all Gentiles here. He says, Do not boast, because you were grafted into the tree. And so that's why you can't present this teaching in an incomplete way, which is done by these neo-Judaizers. They don't mention that Jews are enemies for the sake of the gospel. But then the other thing, too, is that you do have certain what you might call radical or unchristian anti-Semites who are actually reveling in the idea that obviously we are in the church now and we have the election that once belonged to the Israel of the Old Testament. So that's that that dual warning, that moderate Catholic view, and it's not this false dichotomy constructed by Jews who ostensibly have converted or neo-Judaizers and these types.

SPEAKER_05 58:30

Yeah, exactly. If you go back to uh the time before Christ, right, you have when the 10 when the 10 northern tribes break off, they start getting into idolatry, and then God punishes them and sends in the Assyrians to destroy them and they get dispersed, right? And the southern tribe of Judah is arrogant, and they're like, Well, we have the temple, and they're acting arrogant, and God sends the Babylonians in to destroy them too. Like that that lesson is there for us as well, where I think that's what Paul is saying. Like, don't get haughty and don't get too proud because God can cut us off the same way he did. Because I think God resists the proud even when they're right, you know, like that that that's that's kind of an important thing to recognize. And that's why I think what American Reform said there is actually really important. That and and we also have to make sure that we don't develop a real hatred of Jews. Like, this is we're discussing all of this in theological terms because we're just trying to understand the story and the way it plays out.

SPEAKER_07 59:30

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I think I think it's really under important to understand Romans 11, like even in the context of Romans 9 through 11, but like Romans 11 starts out the first two verses talking about how St. Paul talking, how he's a Jew from the tribe of Benjamin, saying, Look, God did not reject the Jews, right? Because the Jews were the ones that were denied the Messiah. God did not reject the Jews, the Jews denied the Messiah, and then the middle part of Romans 11, he brings up the olive tree, which is a throwback to Jeremiah's and um Isaiah's and others, where he's like talks about how the people of God, Israel, are an olive tree. You know, the root, of course, is Jesus Christ, and then the like the the main the the the main branches that come off the Christ are the prophets and the patriarchs and the Jews of the flesh that believe, like the Old Testament Jews and even like the apostles and stuff like that. But then the Jews that don't believe have been broken off of this olive tree, right? And this has been a blessing to us Gentiles that they've been broken off so that we can be brought grafted in, right? It's kind of like how the the angels that fell out of the sky and into hell was a blessing to us so we can be saved now, right? Same thing. So we shouldn't boast against these Jews that that um have broken themselves off of the covenant. We should have pity for them. We should try to help them and love them and want them to come back in. And that's why, you know, when it he gets to Romans 11 25 through through 26, he this is the prophecy that in the end times they will see the light, the veil will be lifted off of their eyes and they will see the light. But until then, like he says in Romans 11 28, they are enemies for our sake, they are our enemies, but they're still beloved. And going back to what Josh was saying, Josh Charles was saying, they are still loved and they still are going to be loved as a people. And God wants them to be come back into the olive tree and to convert, and they will on the end of the and the end of time, but until they come back in, they're broken off, right? So that promise is still there, but it's still in the covenant that exists in true Israel, which is the church, through Christ Jesus, right? So the promise exists, the covenant is there, but they're outside of the covenant until they convert, if that makes any sense. And let me tell you something else, though.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:57

Like the the the standard for a Catholic is even way higher than it is for a Jew, right? So, like every time we commit mortal sin, like we say the Jews rejected the covenant because they reject the Messiah. Every time we choose mortal sin, we reject God. Like you're you're doing that. Now we have a way to to fix that relationship through the sacrament, through the sacraments, but it is essentially you are every it is a form of idolatry anytime you commit a mortal sin because you're choosing something else other than God. So like we have a uh a higher standard for us as Catholics than even the Jews do. So um uh this is a good question Josh is asking before we get into that article. Uh, because I saw uh we we saw uh Father Rippiger was on a few different uh shows where he was I think it was Tucker or it was on Sean or whatever uh Sean Ryan show where he said that there's absolutely no chance a third temple will be built. Wrong. Um I'm not sure what I'm not sure where I stand on that. I I think there may be at least an attempt at a third temple or something like that, but I don't I'm not sure that that's okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:06

So here's the thing. He that is funny because that talk came out around the same time I did my video on the Antichrist. There are so in fairness to Father Ripper, there are two common opinions of the church fathers here. There's one common opinion that, like the one that Father Ripper holds that, like, and it's still consistent with 2 Thessalonians 2, where it you know he says that the Antichrist, the man of lawlessness, will roll from the temple of God. Um, that the the Catholic Church will be the temple that the Antichrist rules from, right? But there is an older trans uh tradition from the uh Ante Nicene Fathers uh that comes again from the Johannine line from um you know, like Irenaeus, uh and uh Hippolytus and others that say that the third temple will be rebuilt and the Antichrist will rule from the third temple. So, from a Catholic perspective, you know, it is it is up in the air. Either the third temple will be rebuilt, but it will only be rebuilt by the antichrist, right? Because like it failed when you know the Julian the apostate tried to rebuild it. So it will only be rebuilt by the antichrist, and then you will know if it's rebuilt by the antichrist, and he rolls from there that that's the antichrist. But the other go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:25

It well, the other with the two the the other two opinions in that if the if the church is the new Israel and we are the new temple, right? Like like the church is the new temple, it it is understandable how an interpretation can be brought that the antichrist will rule from the new temple or like seat himself in the place of of the new temple.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:48

Yeah. I mean, and it could be it could be an analogy for something else. It could be like uh, you know, like he's like uh a huge United Nations building or something like that. So we we you know there could be an analogous reading as well, but like the the the two traditions are either the main traditions are either it's going to be he's actually gonna be re- rebuilding the third temple, or it will be the Catholic Church that has essentially at least apostatized from the top down, uh at the end of the time at the end times.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:18

An analogy like an Abrahamic house of prayer.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:23

Well, uh, and and even this needs a caveat because Father Riviger did say from the church fathers I've read. He didn't say there's a unanimous consensus of the church fathers that I've read. So I don't want you know he said that. Yeah, yeah, they give him credit. He said that. Yeah. Um, all right, let's get into this article a little bit. Let's try to go through some of the points here because this is kind of kind of craziness. And this is this is what worries me, and and the whole idea of this kosher Catholicism being presented, because you see guys like Knowles and Matt Frad, and uh what's what's that girl they have over there? Uh Simone Ricardo. No, the the girl was her name, Abigail or something. Are you thinking of Abby Shapiro? No, I'm not. The girl at the Daily Wire. Isabel Brown? Isabel Brown. There you go. Isabel Brown. Um, there so like it's like the Daily Wire has hired a bunch of Catholics, and I think that is very intentional. I don't think yet that uh Matt Walsh, Matt Frad, Michael Knowles, and Isabel Brown, right? That that is a very intentional thing that they're doing because they're trying to present this version of Catholicism where it's acceptable to support the state of Israel or at least remain neutral. Like Matt Walsh kind of remains neutral and he just doesn't talk about it. And he's like, that's an acceptable position where you just don't even talk about it and pretend that every single thing that's happening in the world right now is not because like every every everything that we're seeing happen in the world right now is because of Israel antagonizing things. So uh the article starts Catholic group asks Pope Leo to clarify church's stance on Israel. Should Catholics interpret the creation and enduring existence of the state of Israel as a sign of God's providence, or should they not? Catholic voices for Israel asks Pope Leo in an open letter. So Catholic Voices for Israel is asking why do they always do that and repeat the whole thing they just said? In an open letter addressed to Pope Leo on June 22nd, the group's co-founders, Andre Villanueve and Father Antoine Levy, are asking the Holy Father to answer the question: Should Catholics interpret the creation and enduring existence of the state of Israel as a sign of God's providence, or should they not?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:33

Now, even that would like yes, not the state of Israel, but like I don't I don't well, here's where I'd I'd say you'd have to make the distinction between God's wise will and his permissive will. So in his wise will, you have the perpetual dispersion of the Jews and their being subject to Christian princes as a witness people, preserved until the end of time, preserved just like Cain, you talked about him before, and that typology where he was marked in a special way. Well, the same is true of the Jews, and that's why the Catholic Church, in her wisdom, introduced all of those types of legislation to mark Jews in a special way and to set them apart from Christian society, not only to protect our societies from their pernicious influence, but to protect them. But that's what he he doesn't mention there.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:27

Yeah, he's not he's not clarifying. Now, now I I I know American Reform has a different position on like I I know you you hold a different position than I do, but I would say even with the mess that the current hierarchy is in, like Pope Francis made a point to call that priest in Gaza every night, right? Pope Leo even sees the atrocities happening in Palestine right now. Like this guy is still, even with the mess that the current hierarchy is in, this guy is shooting for something that will I do not see happening. Um, okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:05

Can I can I make a distinction real quick? Oh I also see uh the Gideon Lazars in the chat too. So I want to uh say something here. So, like, okay, so it is going along with what American Reform is saying, there is a difference between God's permissive will and God's active will, right? He active wanting actively wanting something. So God, everything in the world that happens happens because it happens according to God's permissive will, even like rape and murder and horrible things happens according to God's permissive will. We can't get past, we can't get around that as Catholic theologians. But however, just because going along with that, just because something has historically happened doesn't mean that that was God's act of will, that that was God's desire, that's what he wanted. It just means it at least happened according to his permissive will. So if something that happened, like that the Zionists have moved into Palestine and made a state in 1948, can we say that that happened according to God's permissive will? Yeah, but it doesn't mean that it was God's act of will that that that this this happened, and that's what we're arguing against. Not that it happened, but it it was God's active will that it happened.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:17

But what if God is allowing it specifically because the fullness of time has you know what I mean? Like, I don't know if that that needs a further qualification there, because in some sense, God prevented them from gathering for 2,000 years, and for him, like it might be a not just well, yeah, no, it would still be his permissive will. He's allowing them to gather back in, but it was no matter what, it will still serve his purpose in the end.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:45

Right, right, right, right, right. The antichrist will serve his purpose, but it's still the antichrist, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:50

And that's and that's where obviously God's mind is is not going to be known to us, but that's where it can actually work for his glory. Now, that's not to say that we shouldn't oppose this correct project of Jewish control and political sovereignty in the in the Holy Land, which I know we all agree on that. Yeah, but that's that's what people don't get. And the one thing I want to draw to is there was actually an indication in a decision that Pope Pius XI approved in 1928. So this is his suppression of Amichi Israel, which was this ecumenical, phylosemitic, Judaizing group. And when he condemned unchristian forms of anti-Semitism, he also said that, quote, the Catholic Church has always been accustomed to pray for the Jewish people who were the depository of divine promises up until the arrival of Jesus Christ, notwithstanding their subsequent blindness, or rather, because of this blindness. And that's something that you won't hear the so-called Hebrew Catholics talk about today, the current blindness of the Jews, and that when our Lord was put on the cross, they ceased to be the bearer of divine revelation, and all of and the prerogatives of that Israel of the Old Testament transferred and were fulfilled in the true Israel, which is the Catholic Church, which is spiritual principally.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:10

Yeah. I I also do see God allowing a hardness of heart to come over the church at this time, right? Like there's there's still um I mean, you see it in our hierarchy everywhere. Like God is allowing a hardness of heart to happen, even within the church, that that is going to also play into this end times scenario where um, like when we were going through Ticonius, Ticonius said,

Third Temple Questions And Prophecy

SPEAKER_05 1:12:40

just like our Lord, like the church will be delivered up to the authorities in the church. So, like, there's going to be I mean, this is obviously my own personal interpretation, but I see some way where the synagogue colludes with the hierarchy and they persecute the faithful, and that's because that's what happened to our Lord, and we have to follow him in his passion, death, and resurrection.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:03

Anthony, you've got to read the plot against the church that was distributed in 1962 to all of the council fathers. That's good. You'd get a lot out of that book, and it's you'll you'll see things that things are really starting to change with that.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:17

It's on my website.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:19

Um, okay, so also, yeah, this is good. Yeah. So I mean, this is Luke 21, 24. If you want to bring it up, Rob, this is where Christ says Jerusalem will be trodden underfoot until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. Yeah. Um, like I I don't I don't know how any of these conversations happen without the the eschatological implications of it, you know. So like Rob Rob, Rob and Rob and I have always kind of like disagreed about like, is this a type of end times? Is it the end times? But even when we get into this topic, Rob's like, yeah, I don't know, man. The fact that the Jews are back in Jerusalem kind of well.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:59

I mean no, I I I I still don't think it's the end times, right? It's his own. I don't I don't see how you can escape it because I do think well the majority of the world's Jews still still are not in Israel. I mean, I don't think you can't you can't say necessarily that the that that they've all been gathered back in, but I mean who knows what percent is required, right? But yeah, I don't know. I just I don't think it's the answer.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:26

What do you what do you guys make of it?

SPEAKER_07 1:14:28

So here's my here's my can I say something real quick? Um one thing is like uh I know Gideon's in the chat, like I want to make something clear of what we're not saying. Just because we're saying that Christian Zionism and dispensationalism aren't consistent with the the church teaching, like the fact that of the matter that Jews have existed, have lived in the in the Palestinian region for over 2,000 years since Christ is not disputed. I know Gideon brought up before, like, well, you know, uh Augustine even says uh points out in the city of God that Jews live in the Palestinian region, right? And like Abraham and some people point out that Abraham's covenant is different than the Mosaic covenant and different than the Noah covenant, etc. Right. But all covenants, old covenants were fulfilled in Christ's. Uh, and as far as uh Jews living in the Palestinian region, there's nobody's trying to kick Jews out, or that's not what we're arguing. We're arguing the the argument is whether or not Jews have a theological entitlement to say this is their land, and this is the the land of their people, and uh uh uh and they're the people of God that can build a temple and worship their God and this land. And we're saying no, because that has all been fulfilled and completed in Christ, right? So that's really what we're saying here, and as far as um you know uh yeah, so the land promise is really a non-factor when it comes down to it, because they can live there, they just don't have the entitlement, the spiritual entitlement there, right? They can own land just like anybody else, they just don't have a spiritual entitlement.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:09

Yeah, I think that's like the main point. Like, there's no they don't have a right to exist any more than anybody else has a right to exist, they don't have and and it's and specifically, I like what what Andre is saying here that this is like they they have a divine right to this land because it's some spiritual promise to God that he gave to Abraham that's being fulfilled right now. I think it's the exact opposite of of that. Um, all right, so let's let's continue on. So while the pair note that the church's reticence to pronounce on the theological meaning of the state of Israel has served a real purpose, they proceed to express concerns over a number of Catholic commentators who they contend have interpreted this silence as a formal dismissal of the very possibility of ascribing any theological resonance to the founding of the state of Israel and to its enduring existence. Yes, I would be one of those commentators. Um the church is and and and look, the thing is, I like I like Gideon. I'm I'm friends with Gideon. I have a lot of private conversations with him. Like he would be the the the uh one one person I would feel comfortable having this conversation with. Um I like I I know I know Gideon uh is trying to work through this stuff himself. So it's you know, I'm not I don't say that as in in in any kind of a negative way. So the the church's silence regarding Israel's right to exist, a reluctance to go beyond mere political recognition, on par with that, extended to the still incoate state of Palestine in 2013, gives ground to all those Catholic voices that wish to lend this lend this campaign of denigration, the authority of the church's own name, the letter manifests.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:50

Well, here you see an equivocation from Dr. Andre when he talks about Israel's right to exist. Is he referring to the nation of Israel, which is to say a physiological union, a people, or is he talking about the state, the political entity of Israel? So Catholic theology militates against the latter, but not the former. And this is the same distinction that was actually maintained by Pope St. Pius X in 1903 in that meeting with Theodore Herzl, where he actually said, and this is the godfather of the Zionist movement, he said, if you do come here, we're not exactly happy about that, but we will be willing to baptize you and we want you to convert into the church. So there wasn't that complete opposition to that, even mass Jewish migration back into the Holy Land. But he was clear about that they could not have sovereignty and political control, which is distinct from the Jewish migration there.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:46

That's what has to be distinguished because yeah, I think they they could

Letter To Pope And Right To Exist

SPEAKER_05 1:18:50

even reside in that land if it was under a uh a Christian ruler or something like that. They would always have a right to exist in safety, they would always have that right.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:03

Like the the issue that the church had was we can't we can't like lend um we can't recognize their political legitimacy, and this was continued. I I did a lot of research into this. This was continued by Pope Benedict XV, Pope Pius X, and even Pope Pius XII, who made the same distinction in one of his delegates. And there was there was agitation in the United States where they were talking about bringing Jews to the Holy Land. And they said, okay, we can tolerate that, but we cannot tolerate a Jewish state because of the implications of that. So that is that distinction, and that's something that Dr. Andre is not going to make. And to most people, they go, Of course, Israel has a right to exist, but what they're thinking about are the Jewish people, and that's an equivocal term. We're talking about the Jewish state and their political sovereignty, and so they smuggle that in, and most people miss that.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:56

Yeah, again, from a natural laws point of view, no state has a right to exist, it only has the right to exist in as much as it can protect itself. I mean, but a people, they you know, people are even not a non-sovereign people, of course. Uh from a Catholic pers perspective, we don't believe in genocide or anything like that, right? So this is this is where this equivocation gets it, it's it's he's making an argument that is just uh go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:29

Well, well, actually, what I'm gonna say is what I'm gonna say is usually like I I say we're gonna go to locals and switch topics, but I do want to go to locals tonight and maybe we'll get to some things that we wouldn't

Locals Guest Plugs And Wrap

SPEAKER_05 1:20:40

feel comfortable saying on YouTube, but we're we're gonna continue this discussion over there. I definitely want to get you guys back on um on the YouTube side also, but we're going to for anybody that's not subscribed to our locals, we have to do right by our locals subscribers because last episode with Nancy Charles, we did not give them locals content, and these people pay for it. So we did an hour and 20 minutes over here. So if you guys would like to hear the rest of the discussion, please follow us over there. Um, yes, you do need to pay for that, Gary. Uh our local side is where we actually, you know, we actually have uh we we're a little more free to talk over there, and we uh we get into some some better stuff over there. So if you guys want to hear the rest of this conversation, jump over to our locals. We'll see you guys on the other side. Robbie got a video or a song to take us out or something.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:27

Uh yeah, give me a second here.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:30

Um wait, wait, wait, before we go, whoa, whoa. You guys, where can people find you? Yeah, so Catholic State, you have a YouTube channel and you're also on X, right?

SPEAKER_07 1:21:40

Yep, yep. My YouTube channel, you can just go at the Catholic State or Christ the King is my ministry. My website is Christ the King.info, and you can find all my links and especially on my website, go to Christ the King.info. You'll see I have a whole section, all the church fathers, doctors, magisterium, everything you could want about the Jewish question is on my website.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:00

Uh, and Catholic State, like just go check his videos out. They're they're usually short to the point, and he's got a ton of knowledge. Like, I've learned a ton watching your channel, man. Very, very grateful for what you get, what you do. Thank you. Um, American Reform, I know you're on X. Do you have anything else you uh Yes?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:16

And I just want to reiterate thank you again for having me on. I really appreciate it, both you and Rob. And if you're interested in finding more about my work, research, my commentary, my analysis, you can go to my Substack. That's at the Journal of American Reform, or you can find me on X at American Reform. And thank you so much.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:36

Yeah, no, we'll definitely we're gonna get you guys back on YouTube again. I just we gotta we have to give stuff for our local guys. They literally keep the lights on over here for us.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:44

So we should probably read Patrick's super chat.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:47

Oh, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we have to do this before we go. So, why do you think the conversion of the pagan world by the martyrs at the start of Christendom was so successful, but not the soup uh suppression of the of Protestant Protestantism and modernism by the saints of the Reformation and the and these popes in the encyclical series?

SPEAKER_04 1:23:06

I would say Protestantism was actually being pretty success successfully uh repressed up until the Enlightenment. Now, why why did why why things fail so bad against the Enlightenment, uh I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:23

I I just think that we're watching um we're watching the story play out, and the story has to come to a conclusion, and it's just taken like the the beauty of what Christendom built has taken them 500 plus years to destroy. Like that's how solid the foundation of Christendom was. That even once they destroyed the once they destroyed uh church and state relations and they pushed through all the insanity of the modern world and the enlightenment, it still can't totally destroy what foundation is there from Christian civilization in the Catholic Church before the Reformation.

SPEAKER_07 1:24:07

Yeah, I agree with that. It's basically what's been happening for the past several hundred years. It's the destruction of the Chris Christendom and the rise of the synagogue. And it it's not a quick process, it's a very slow and and arduous process that that what you were saying earlier has to happen to fulfill the end-time prophecy, but it's not something we should celebrate. It's just it is what it is.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:29

Yeah, and all things will work for the glory of God in the end. And just the the the same way Catholics used to see things on a multi-generational, like building a cathedral and would take four or five hundred years. I think the synagogue has seen their destruction of Christendom in the same way. They're like, let's think hundreds of years out and how we could take this thing down, and we're just seeing it start to unravel now in our time. So, all right, we're going over to locals, guys. We will see you on the other side. Take us out, Rob.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:02

Come to the peace of heaven and earth. Come to the table of heaven. God will provide all the king. We're at the table of sit at my table.