Michael Knowles Just Betrayed Catholic Teaching on Israel (Full LOCALS Show)

Somebody says “Just be normal about Israel,” and suddenly a huge question hides in plain sight: is this really only about foreign policy, or does it touch theology, biblical interpretation, and Catholic tradition in ways most people never examine? We take that challenge seriously, play the key clips that kicked this off, and then slow down the conversation so listeners can actually see the assumptions beneath the slogans.

We talk with Catholic State (Justin) and American Reform about the way modern Catholic media can present a safe, mainstream-friendly version of Catholicism that keeps Israel in a protected category. Along the way, we unpack the difference between a people and a political state, why “right to exist” is often an undefined phrase, and how older Catholic sources handled sovereignty in the Holy Land. We also react to a new Catholic open letter asking Pope Leo to clarify whether Catholics should see the State of Israel as a sign of God’s providence, and we explain why that question can’t be answered well without clear definitions.

Then we turn to the doctrinal flashpoints that keep reappearing in public arguments: Romans 9 to 11, covenant language, fulfillment theology, and how Nostra Aetate is interpreted in practice. We also touch eschatology and why end-times speculation can go off the rails if you don’t separate Catholic doctrine from theological opinion. Our goal is clarity without hysteria: careful sourcing, honest categories, and charity that doesn’t require intellectual surrender.

If this conversation helps you think more clearly, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review. What’s one phrase in the Israel debate you want us to define and challenge next?

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Transcript

Why Revisit Israel And Theology

SPEAKER_08 0:31

We had to go uh old school because I refuse to let Taffy's intro play tonight because I hated it. Um we got a special show for you guys tonight. I uh I had tried special show with a topic we've never done before. Well, the thing is, I it's important that we stay brushed up on our anti-Semitism, Rob.

SPEAKER_07 0:52

You can't let this stuff I thought it was like a bike. You just got in.

SPEAKER_08 0:57

It's not like riding a bike. You have to remember all the stuff so that you don't fall out of you know out of sync with it because it's been a few a few months, I think, since we've discussed this. And uh there's some stuff in the headlines. Uh, I saw there's two things I want to discuss tonight. One is obviously in the title, Michael Knowles has had some pretty ridiculous things to say, but I want to try and address those things uh properly from like a Catholic perspective. And then there's this new group that just sent a letter to Pope Leo. Um that is uh let's see, this this new group formed. Uh Catholic group asked Pope Leo to clarify church's stance on Israel, and they put this whole thing out. And I have a couple of clips of this guy that that is like the head of this group. He's been on, I think, with Tim Flanders, and I think he writes for I think he helped write the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible. I'm pretty sure he was a part of that. So I wanted to get American Reform and Catholic State on uh when Rob was in Florida, but some uh Michael Hitchbourne came on instead. So uh I thought tonight would be a good night to get you guys on. So how how are you guys doing? I'll start with uh Catholic State.

SPEAKER_04 2:13

Hey, what's up? Yeah, doing great. Just thanks to thanks you guys for letting me be here. Unfortunately, my camera's acting gay tonight, so um I had to put this pic up instead, but uh yeah, I'm happy to be here, man. Thank you guys. Probably the Massad attacking your camera every single time, man.

SPEAKER_07 2:32

Only Anthony's microphone was acting like that.

SPEAKER_08 2:35

American Reform. Oh, wait, is my oh you know what? The mic did it, did it reset, Rob?

SPEAKER_07 2:41

No, I was just making a joke that we don't want to hear you.

SPEAKER_08 2:44

Oh, no, no, but my mic reset. But I sound okay. All right, and then American Reform, who is if you guys are not following him on Twitter, he's like one of the uh one of the best resources for like pre-conciliar papal statements on this topic, papal statements and just magisterial statements on this topic. Um, yeah, welcome to you too, man.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

Thank you both for having me on. It's it's a real pleasure. And I was thinking that one day you're going to have me on to talk about perhaps race, but I'm happy we picked a less controversial topic in the mind of the public. So I'm excited

Guest Intros And Conversion Backgrounds

SPEAKER_03 3:20

to be here today and thank you again.

SPEAKER_08 3:22

Before we jump into it, um, Catholics, your name's Justin, right? Catholic State?

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 3:27

All right. So Justin, are you a convert? Are you a revert? Are you a cradle Catholic? What's your story? Like a quick synopsis. I don't want to do like conversion stories.

SPEAKER_04 3:35

Yeah, no, no, no, no. I I converted a little over eight years ago. Uh actually on Pentecost. I uh grew up in a Protestant family. My dad was Baptist, but he never practiced. My mom was Methodist, so I got I got baptized when I was like nine, and then my mom stopped going to church after my grandma died. But um, yeah, then like it was like I became an atheist when I was a teenager. Then in my 20s and 30s, I I was like just chasing women, so I didn't care. Um, but like then in my early 30s, I I I started like realizing that the world around me was degenerate, and I was a degenerate too. And I started like uh looking for Christ, and then um, you know, I went to different Protestant churches, and then I eventually my friend who was also an atheist came back into my life and said, uh, be Catholic because uh the Protestant churches are stupid and or they're all fake and gay and none of them are right. And um, lo and behold, he was right, and he also told me about the Jews and all that stuff. So uh he uh he red-pilled me on a lot of stuff, so here I am. What what year was that about? Uh eight years ago. That was two thousand that was right after Trump got elected, like late 2000 or 2016. No, no, no, that's 10 years ago. 2018, yeah. 2018.

SPEAKER_08 4:53

So you so you come into the church and you get you get red pilled on this topic, like right as you're jumping in.

SPEAKER_04 5:00

Oh yeah, I was I was red pilled. I was already primed and ready to go, though, because like I said, I was red pilled on a lot of things, like the you know, women and you know, all this other stuff. So it was really kind of like I was at this point where like I could see everything around me like was like the world was degenerate, and I was a big part of that. I was a degenerate man, and then I was like, okay, what is why is the why is why are things the way they are? What is what is the problem and what is the solution? So I was ready to see the problems and the solutions, and I found the solution was the Catholic Church, and then you know, the the on the opposite end, the problem comes from the synagogue. So I was I I I kind of accepted both truths pretty quickly because I was already I was already at that point. My friend just kind of came into my life and he just kind of tipped me over the edge, basically.

SPEAKER_08 5:52

Yeah, there's there's only there like a couple of years ago, I guess. Like there really was only a few people talking about this topic. You were one of the first channels that I caught on to talking about this stuff. So I was watching your your stuff from pretty early on, and I really did like when you started showing your face, and then unfortunately your camera crapped the bet on us tonight. But uh and then uh American Reform, you're also a convert, right?

SPEAKER_03 6:18

That's right, and I'll keep it short because I'm still trying to preserve my anonymity, but I am a convert, 27, married, I was raised Lutheran, standard conservative upbringing. I actually was a big fan of Daily Wire back in the day, watched it watched Ben Shapiro almost religiously and enjoyed Dennis Prager's fireside chat. And then it was actually Michael Knowles, of all people, watching his show in part helped me to convert. And

Daily Wire Catholicism And Israel

SPEAKER_03 6:45

so I have a great deal of respect for a lot of the things he does, but obviously he has a big blind spot on this issue.

SPEAKER_08 6:51

Yeah, that's the thing. I I like Knowles too, right? And um, this show isn't gonna just be like dunking on him. The the the point of of this episode is kind of the point of all of our conversations that have to do with the Daily Wire, in that I feel like they are presenting a kosher version of Catholicism that makes it seem like it's Orthodox, but in a way that makes it acceptable to support the state of Israel. So they separate the theology from the political and they try to act like you know, support supporting supporting the state of Israel is not a theological issue, and deep down it is definitely a theological issue, to the point where I actually don't like when people refer to this as like anti-Zionism. Because I think it saying anti saying you're anti-Zionist, and in a way I agree with the Jews in that you're kind of like cloaking anti-Semitism, you know what I mean? Like, not real anti-Semitism, because obviously not anti-Semitic, but it if you understand what Zionism is, you understand that this isn't just a political problem, this is a theological problem.

SPEAKER_04 8:03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:05

Um, it really is, and that if I if I may, it it obfuscates the real theological opposition between the true Israel, which is to say the Catholic Church, and then the faithless synagogue. And I'm sure we'll get into that, but it's it's really that obfuscation, and and Zionism is merely an outgrowth of rabbinical Talmudic Judaism. And so if you're only saying one without the other and not realizing what it proceeds from, you're you're missing the big part of the picture.

SPEAKER_08 8:34

Yeah, for sure. So part part of the inspiration for even doing this episode today was a couple of uh Twitter posts you had made where um you you pulled up a couple of things that Michael Knowles said.

SPEAKER_03 8:47

And that was the was this a recent episode of his yes, it was actually the episode he did yesterday that I happened to catch.

SPEAKER_08 8:54

Okay,

Sponsors And What We’re Testing

SPEAKER_08 8:55

all right. So, Rob, which um all right. Do we want to do sponsors first? Uh yeah, actually, uh I actually just found more tangerine knick-knacks in my drawer, which I'm super excited about because I thought I was out of these. So I found I'm out of my um I'm out of my grapefruit, which is my favorite, but tangerine is my second favorite. It's like uh I don't know if you oh never mind. I was gonna uh go into a stupid comedy bit, but um knick knack.com, go to knicknack.com. Nicknack is a nicotine product, it does contain nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive substance. If you go there, use code AB25. You will get 25% off your first purchase. Use code AB10 for 10% off subsequent purchases. I don't have a knick knack success story tonight. I will have one for next episode. Rob Connor caught me off guard here. Also, go to uh black monk rosaries. Uh black monk rosaries, they are if you're not playing praying black on your black monk rosary, you're not on the team. Go to blackmonkrosaries.com, use code AvoidingBabylon, and you will get 10% off a checkout. Uh Father's Day did just pass. It would have been a good gift for that.

SPEAKER_07 10:10

That's one way to sell them. Tell people how they missed out.

SPEAKER_08 10:14

Fourth of July. It's a great way to sell celebrate American reform. Get your Black Monk Rosary. Um okay, so Rob caught me off guard. You didn't know you were doing a show tonight. Are you kidding me? All right, all right, all right. Um, the problem with Knowles types is that they invert the relationship between politics and faith, simply put, they are not integralists. Okay, so we'll get into a lot of clips. Um, all right, so AR, what clip do you think we should start with?

SPEAKER_03 10:43

Let's start with the first one at the top of that thread.

SPEAKER_08 10:46

Okay, so that's the one with the because I sent them to Rob differently, probably. Rob, that's the yeah, the first one I sent to the right.

SPEAKER_07 10:54

Yeah, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_08 10:59

So this is Knowles on his show yesterday, and he was kind of presenting the all right, so American Reform's point is that he's presenting this dialectic where it's like um uh only the crazies are against Israel. And he starts he starts like sh showing the people who support Israel and pitting it almost like the same conversation we see in politics where it's Democrat versus Republican. So let's play the clip real quick and then we'll we'll do some commentary on it.

Knowles On “Being Normal”

SPEAKER_00 11:30

To Israel to see how they're gonna fight. So the narrative is one thing, but action I think is even more important.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

I have one request of people uh across the political spectrum, especially when it comes to the issue of Israel. Can we please be normal? Can we please be normal? Can anybody in politics just be normal? You can support the state of Israel as I do without being a total weirdo about it. It's possible. I know it seems like it's impossible. You either have to believe that Israel is the worst rogue state, puppeteer of all the nations, protocols of the elders of Zion, you know, uh occult, demonic monstrosity. You either have to believe that, especially if you're a podcaster, or you have to believe that Israel is the most blameless nation, the greatest state above all rules and order that we must all serve as slavishly as possible, and no one can ever criticize it. Those are the only two options that you're allowed to hold, I guess, in public life. But what I would suggest, humbly, is that you just be normal for like five seconds.

SPEAKER_08 12:33

The way the way I I do want to actually get to something about that, right? Because there is something about those of us who jump into this topic. We've talked about it on this show, where it seems like anybody who does touch on this topic, they just that's all they see is Israel behind every single thing. And it's it's a it's a delicate topic, right? Where it's kind of one of those things where once you start noticing, you start noticing it everywhere. So it's kind of hard for it to not become your whole personality where you're just ranting and raving about this stuff. So is he does he have a point about just being normal?

SPEAKER_04 13:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'll go.

SPEAKER_08 13:21

Um I think I think just so we don't have this happen every time. What we'll do is Catholic state, you'll go first every time, and then American Reform will come up right now.

SPEAKER_04 13:29

Okay, yeah. I think there is some truth to what he's saying is as far as being normal, because there are people that like they go to to different extremes, like he said, like in fairness to Steelman his argument. Yeah, there is a certain normal, like there is no normalcy, but there it's framed in a way, the dialectic is framed in a way that there can't be normalcy, right? I mean, that's that's the problem. It's the dialectic is framed in a way that you can't do it because it's either it either seems that you have to have this position that theologically the the state of Israel has like some sort of theological. I mean, and that's what the Zionist movement was. It was a theological movement. They they were secularists, but they wanted to have they had this theological understanding that the Jews had a right to this land, right? So you have this one side of the dialectic that says you either believe that or you don't, right? And then from there, you can't you can't have this middle ground of like, well, I don't believe that they have the right to land, uh, right to the land because, but I do believe they have a right to exist. That doesn't even make sense, even from a natural law, a natural law point of view. Let's take theology out of it. The natural law point of view, no state has the quote unquote right to exist except for that it can protect itself militarily, right? It's it can protect protect itself politically and militarily, right? The reason the United States, quote unquote, has a right to exist, which it really doesn't, even though we're all Americans here, but even the only reason it does is because it can protect itself militarily and politically as a state. If it didn't, it wouldn't, it wouldn't exist, it would be get invaded, it would get destroyed, right? It would whether with from within or from without, right? And so, like with this for this framing, they're doing is they're they're creating this the this false dichotomy is that you have to believe that the Israel has a right to exist, but the only way you can believe it has a right to exist is if you have some sort of theological backing behind that. So if you if you frame if it's framed that way and it's inherently framed that way, you're going to get some extreme positions, right? And they're going to be related to the Jewish question. There's no way to there's no way to unpack this without without combining the two. Yeah.

unknown 15:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

Building on that, what Justin put there was was very good. And what you see is that Knowles is creating this false dichotomy between two different positions, and he takes what he claims is the moderate one, which is to say being generally neutral towards Israel, if not pro-Israel. And he says that he's pro-Israel. The problem with that is that he does not admit all of the positive theological data that actually militates against the very existence of a quote-unquote Jewish state in the Holy Land, which is distinct from the Jewish people going there and migrating. The issue with the Catholic Church and the Jews going there is they're having political control and sovereignty over the Holy Land. And that's what Pope St. Pius X maintained in his dialogue with Theodore Herzl. And so it's that positive theological opposition, which is informed by the witness doctrine of St. Augustine, where you have the Jews there being a they're wandering people perpetually dispersed, they're laboring under a curse, always protected, of course, from unjust reprisals and extraditious judicial violence. So that's that witness doctrine. It's a it's a protection, but it's also protection of Christian societies against their pernicious influence. And so that's the framework that Knowles does not bring into this conversation, which is why he claims that the moderate, ostensibly Catholic position is to be pro-Israel, but against the excesses, against the most radical excesses of Zionism. And so that's that false dialectic, and you can see it play out right here.

SPEAKER_08 17:21

Yeah, I've I've I've said I've come to the conclusion through like the different episodes we've done and studying this topic. Like, there's there's actually no way in which a Catholic can justify support of like morally, we cannot justify support for Israel in any shape or form, whether monetarily or that doesn't mean we want their we don't it doesn't mean we we want any kind of genocide or ethnic yeah, like nothing like that. We're not even not not even saying that you have to support anybody uh getting them out of the land. I just don't think we can support them having a state and most especially in uh that land there specifically. I I do wonder if after World War II they wanted to form some kind of a state that wasn't an ethno state. I don't know, I don't know, like could they have formed any kind of state outside of that land? I don't even know if they could have done that, but the fact that they're in Palestine like that, it's it has it has biblical implications, it has theological implications, especially when you start getting into Jesus when he says in Luke that the the land of the the the the Jerusalem will be trodden underfoot by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles will be there there was an autonomous Jewish oblast uh established in Siberia, but surprisingly, no one wanted to move there.

SPEAKER_07 18:51

No one wanted to move to Siberia.

SPEAKER_08 18:53

Well, that's that's part of the problem, right? Like the the way that they did come into the land had a lot to do with them bribing people to come in, and not even just the way they got people out, was they had to kind of force Jews to come in there because nobody even wanted to go there, nobody wanted to move into the middle of the desert in these Muslim lands, even when they started to form. So um, all right, so let's let's play the other clip too. I want to because I uh there's a ton of things I want to dive into on this topic. It's been a while since we talked about it, and you really do need to like refresh yourself on on the arguments because they're coming, they're coming out left and right the way, the way the conversation is happening in the public. And then we have uh this this letter that was sent to Pope Leo where there are now Catholic organizations like Hebrews for Catholics and the Phylos Project, who are not only battling so-called anti-Semitism, like they're actually arguing from a Catholic perspective that the Jews coming back into Israel is in some way a fulfillment of God's promises in a positive way, which is utterly insane.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

Anthony, if I may, just mention one thing before we go to the next clip, because what you said was spot on. The Jewish people did not cease to be a messianic people when they put our Lord on the cross. That has continued to the very present. And so the reason what you're seeing correctly, there are enormous theological implications for their being in the Holy Land, because we know that they are going to be the ones that are going to be ushering in the empire of Antichrist, whom they consider to be their messiahs. And so it all goes back to our Lord and the cross, his messianic dignity. And by their rejection of that, they are objectively striving, and Father Fehi has done obviously great work on this, but they are objectively striving to create this messianic global empire by which they rule over all the nations because they still think that they're God's chosen people.

SPEAKER_08 20:53

Yeah, in a way, them calling it Zionism was them showing their hand, right? Because if they didn't, if it wasn't called Zionism, they might be able to cloak it in just a political, a political, uh, whatever, a political party or a political state. But the fact that they even call it Zionism, it's because the theological implications of the promises that were given to David on Zion that have to do with God promising his Messiah who will gather his people on Zion for them to rule over the nations with an iron rod. And we know that that is fulfilled in Christ through the church, like the the the all the all the nations when Christ is lifted up on the cross, they all come to worship Christ, and they don't see that as fulfilled there. So they're looking for a carnal way of reading the scriptures where the Antichrist, their Messiah, will come and rule the nations with an iron rod. Not in that we'll all be Jewish, in that they will subjugate us under Jewish authority.

SPEAKER_04 21:58

Right. Yeah, that's exactly. What our Lord said in John 5 43 is like you're not going to receive me, Jesus Christ, you'll receive the Antichrist. And Second Thessalonians 2 says the same thing. And like, I think the thing that these Christian Zionists don't understand, like, yeah, they are helping bring uh bring upon the end times, they're helping bring upon this messianic, what they believe to be this messianic age, like American Reform was talking about. But this messianic age isn't going to be this thousand years, this millennium of peace or whatever. What they're bringing on is this Jewish antichrist who's going to persecute Christians. It's going to be like the ancient church where Christians are persecuted. Like the Noah Hide laws on paper look just kind of like almost like the Ten Commandments in a sense, but they're not. You have to deny the Son, Jesus Christ. And like a lot of modern Jews will deny this, but if you read their essentially what what's what they would consider to be like their church fathers and doctors, like Maimonides and others, they say that.

SPEAKER_08 23:50

Yeah, we saw this in recent videos coming out of Israel when they were going into Lebanon, they were destroying crucifixes and things like that, right? Like they they consider a crucifix idol worship. So it, I mean, it's it's gonna be hard to talk about this without getting into Noshra Tate and the idea that the modern hierarchy is presenting to us that Jews and Muslims worship the same god as us. So like we're going to have to get into that stuff. I want to definitely discuss eschatology with you guys and American Reform. You're the one who asked me or told me to read Cardinal Manning's book, uh the uh uh The Present Crisis of the Holy See. Um and his his whole thesis had to do with the Antichrist coming, and he kept because he he's writing in the 19th century, and he's trying to he's trying to see a situation where an antichrist figure could come and gather the people back into this land.

SPEAKER_07 24:49

He never like he didn't even go on a he's writing literally while Zionism is is being developed.

SPEAKER_08 24:56

So he he's seeing it and he's looking at it and going uh he could see a figure coming about that will then call the people in. I don't think he foresaw the people coming in before this figure came. So though those are things we're definitely gonna get to. All right, let's play, let's play the next clip.

SPEAKER_07 25:11

Is it the next clip in that thread?

SPEAKER_08 25:15

Yeah, like you gave there's like four things in that.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

Uh it should be the third reply in that same thread, Roger.

SPEAKER_08 25:21

Okay, yep, got it.

“Novel Theology” And The Missing Context

SPEAKER_02 25:31

And uh they they we we recognize that the leading anti-Israel voices are radical leftists, people like Greta Thunberg and all of the radical left going back many decades. You can you can just be normal about it. But the the less normal we are about it, the worse the situation is gonna get. That's that's basically my view. The the low but solid ground of alliances and international relations is gonna bode a lot better for the United States and the state of Israel. Uh the the hysterics and the insistence upon uh uh adopting novel theological stances that is only gonna help America's enemies and Israel's enemies for that matter.

SPEAKER_08 26:11

Okay, speaking of racial and errors, and um that's interesting that he calls them novel theological errors because like his position is a novel theological position. It's new in that um I I I think uh man, I don't want to, I don't want to say uh the I don't want to say it because I don't want to bring it up as if I'm I'm bringing something up with this person again, but um there was a there was a comment made on another show one time where there was a priest on there and he had said the reason the church couldn't support uh Israel moving back into the lamb is because um they hadn't had like uh enough time there and there was not and it's like no, actually, the church had always understood the theological significance of Jews gathering back into this land, that it has this theological implication, that when they're gathered back in, like when Rob and I went through the Romans 9 through 11 series, what we what we learned is that every single time God dispenses the the Jews from the land, right? Like he dispenses the Israelites from the land and he you he disperses you mean he disperses them from the land for a reason, and it's and they get dispersed amongst the Gentiles, and then he gathers back them back in. And the last time he gathered them back in was because Christ was coming. And the idea that they've been dispersed amongst the nations for 2,000 years, and now that they're gathering back in implies that God is going to use them for a purpose again, and that purpose is not because he's fulfilling some promise in Ezekiel and that it's a good thing, it's the purpose is the end of the world. In my I don't see any other way to see that.

SPEAKER_04 28:05

Yeah, I mean, you know, you're absolutely right. I mean, like people, these neo-Judaizers, as I call them, they always say, well, you know, like the saints do say, and the church fathers do say that in the end times it does seem like uh there is this uh opinion that the Jews will be gathered back in, you know, and but it's not a flattering thing, it's just it's not, it's they're being gathered in so they can build the like what American Reform and I we've been saying, they can build the Empire of Antichrist. That's why they're being gathered in, right? It's not so yeah, you know, you can look at maybe if you want to be hyper optimistic, you can look at it from a glass out full uh way and say, well, once the antichrist comes and does his uh persecution for three and a half years after that, Christ is gonna come. So that's the good news. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that that is the good news, but there's gonna be lots of persecution of Christians, and even if the Antichrist only uh has three and a half years that he actively rules, even up to that point, there's still going to be a lot of persecution of Christians and there's gonna be a lot of degeneracy. I mean, and that's what we've been seeing for the past century or so, is leading up to the empire of antichrist. We've seen like the the fall of Christendom and the the rise of heresy, and like as as the as the synagogue rises, the church falls, right? So we've seen a like a rise of heresy and apostasy and schism in the church as this as the as this synagogue has risen and as the empire of antichrist gets built. So yeah, in the end, everything is good, but until that happens, there's a lot of bad stuff, and we can't just be blind and stupid and and in a big bunch of idiots and act like that's not gonna happen until then.

SPEAKER_08 29:53

Yeah, and and on and on top of that, it's that's how the like the the dispensationalists see it, right? That they want the Jews to gather back in because they think that will hasten the coming of Christ. Like that's a yeah, that's a psychotic way to view this. That's yeah, like you're you're medieval.

SPEAKER_07 30:10

They think they're gonna be raptured. They don't think they're yeah, they do.

SPEAKER_08 30:13

That that's exactly what they think. Yeah, yeah. You're bringing about the reign of antichrist, you're not bringing about the return of Christ. So go ahead, go ahead, reform.

SPEAKER_03 30:22

No, two things because I want to give Justin props because that term that he coined, neo-Judaizers, it's perfect. And he had a recent video that covered St. Paul's epistle to the Romans, and he went over that. But when it comes to this idea of the conversion of the Jews at the end of the world, from what I can tell, that is the unanimous consensus of Catholic theologians. But what they omit, and this is really what it is, it's an omission. They omit that up until that point of conversion, there is going to be fundamental theological enmity between the true Israel, which is the Catholic Church, alone, to the exclusion of carnal Israel, which was cut off. When they rejected our Lord, they were cut off because they were unfaithful to the covenant. So that opposition is going to continue up until the very end of the world. And from the commentaries that I've read on the book of Apocalypse, it's going to be proximate to our Lord's second coming. So right before his second coming, you will see the preaching of Elias and Enoch, and they will be the ones to convert the Jews. So only up until that point will we see that.

SPEAKER_04 31:28

Yep, yep, exactly. That's exactly what's going to happen.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

And so I want to one last thing because Anthony mentioned towards the end of the 19th century, Cardinal Manning was horrified at the prospect of a large number of Jews gathering in the Holy Land. And so I just want to give one quote here. This is from Father Sylvester Barry. He wrote this in 1921. This is in an apocalypse of St. John. Three sentences real quick. He said, Quote, Antichrist will establish himself in Jerusalem where a great number of Jews will have gathered through some such movement as Zionism. The vast majority of Jews have ever clung to the belief that God will one day restore the kingdom of Israel through a messiah, an anointed one of the house of David. When Antichrist manifests himself to those in Jerusalem with his lying wonders, they will immediately proclaim him as their king and messiahs.

SPEAKER_08 32:33

Right. And all like all especially all the things that you were saying in that episode.

SPEAKER_04 34:01

But he was uh he was a disciple of um Irenaeus, who was um a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of Saint John the Apostle. But so it comes from the what I call the Johannine line of thinking, which is very like which is where a lot of the adversist Judais stuff comes from. But yeah, it is it is kind of the earliest tradition that the Antichrist will be a Danite. How they how how we would know that in practice, I would have no idea because people I've had thousands of comments that are just like, well, how do we know how would you how would we know that? Like, because the Danites either got dispersed or they got absorbed into Judea, right?

SPEAKER_08 34:42

That's why I even bring it up because in the way I've thought about it is not not that I know this, it's just that it's a possibility in my mind that because the the the ten northern tribes are so dispersed amongst the nations, they've basically become gentiles that somebody that we don't even know is from the tribe of Dan.

SPEAKER_07 35:02

Like he could be a Gentile that could be an evangelical dispensationalist property.

SPEAKER_08 35:07

Yeah, it could be a gentile that is really the antichrist, and then he kind of like then he presents himself as the Jewish Messiah. Like, I I I almost think it won't be simple for us to recognize the Antichrist, in other words, like it's not gonna just be like this formula where it's like, well, he's not Jewish, so that's definitely not him. Like, I think there's going to be something where we'll in hindsight, we're gonna go, holy cow, obviously this fit. But in when it's happening, just like all prophecy, you really don't understand it until it's fulfilled. That that's kind of the the the way I look at it. Like, I don't want to just have my mind set that it's definitely going to be a Jew that is gonna present themselves.

SPEAKER_04 35:46

Yeah, I mean, I I think that's fair. I mean, like, I think there's you know, a lot of people suggest like Trump, for instance. I don't I don't know if he fits. I mean, he doesn't have the uh the backing like you would think the antichrist is, he's got a lot of enemies, but it could be potentially somebody like that. That's a world figure that you know he became like the Jews they're not their whole religion is in non-sequitur, that's not very logical. And they they they like they would they would, I mean, the problem is with what you're saying would be the religious Jews, like the ultra-orthodox and orthodox, they're much more like they would not, I don't think they would recognize someone that's Jewish that that's not a practicing Jew, right? Yeah, that's yeah, that that would be my only response, the counter-argument to that.

SPEAKER_03 36:36

Now, I think there there is a problem if you present, and Justin, I think, present it the right way, but if you present it as definitive, I think that would be a problem that would be excessive in terms of the certitude. But I think it's more than likely, and in fact, probably more than that. And and the reason is that religious Jews themselves are extremely racial, they're hyper-fixated on that, and so they will never accept a messiah who presents himself to them who is not actually Jewish by blood. That's fundamentally what they care about because their religion now, this is another thing people don't really people might know, but they don't really appreciate it. So the temple is destroyed, the priesthood is gone, they can no longer offer sacrifice. So it is fundamentally and essentially a racial religion built around their chosenness, they see themselves as uniquely the chosen people of God, and so that's one of the fundamental dogmas of the Talmudic rabbinical Judaism. And so if there's a Gentile that comes, they're gonna reject him and they're not going to be persuaded by him, I think, in the slightest.

SPEAKER_08 37:37

Yeah, I th that that's a really good point. Yeah, yeah, they because he has to be accepted as the Jewish Messiah, right? Like that's that's how he's going to present himself. So it's for him to be accepted by them. I don't I don't think a gentile could come in and pull that off. Like he has to he has to be he has to yeah, he does have to be Jewish uh in in on the surface at least. Like he has to he has to be at least surface level Jewish. And and you know, there's yeah, this there's a lot of a lot a lot of because there's a lot of shadiness about what even is a Jew ethnically, anyway. So yeah, I guess I guess they could be from the tribe of Dan presenting themselves. Yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_04 38:22

I mean they it could it could here's an exception though. Here's an exception, like let's say like you know, like a Donald Donald Trump example, and I agree with everything American Reform just said, by the way, but like let's say like somebody was like Donald Trump or whatever, like he was a big you know leader and the Jews loved him, and then like he can't somehow came up with a like everybody thought he was a gentile, but let's say he took a DNA test and he found out he was genetically Jewish, that that would work, that would fit, right? Like that would be like because again, they're so hyper fixated on race. They are like their religion is like exactly like American Reform said, a racist religion. They're so hyper-fixated on race that if they found out like this person was Jewish, they might like now they they like the fact like of course there's the matrilineal line thing, and even some some of them are like has to be both matrilineal and patrilineal, like but if somebody can prove they're racially Jewish, they that might that might work.

SPEAKER_08 39:21

Yeah, I th I think look uh Trump, I don't think is the antichrist, but I do think he's he's a type, like he's he's acting on behalf of Jewish interests in a way where he's definitely drumming up messianic fervor in the Holy Land. So I mean I don't I don't I think he might be some kind of a a prefigurement or or a or a foreshadowing of him or something, but I yeah, I first off I think he's too old. He's too old and he's starting to get dementia, and uh yeah, I just don't see it being

A New Catholic Letter To The Pope

SPEAKER_08 39:57

him. But um, all right, I want to jump into this article um because there is there's this group that is presenting um a letter to to to Pope Leo, and I want to kind of go through some of this stuff because these are Catholics, supposed Catholics. Actually, before we even get to the article, Rob, I want to give you guys a little precursor of who this guy is that's presenting.

SPEAKER_07 40:19

And I put two clips in there, Rob, of the guy underneath the article.

SPEAKER_08 40:24

Yeah, so play them in order. The first one I sent. This guy is um this is the guy who who organized this group. He's a supposed Catholic, he's a convert, he wasn't evangelical, but he spent a ton of time in Israel, and he's kind of obsessed with this topic.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Friend for an evangelical. And maybe I can ease into that topic in a biographical way as well, because I as I was still living in Israel, I returned to the Catholic Church in 2001 and 2002, and one of my initial questions was what is the Catholic pos what is the Catholic position on Israel? And at this point, I had a great love for Israel, and so can I bring this love for Israel together with me in the Catholic Church? Is this compatible? Is this uh something I need to give up? Obviously, there were a lot of other questions related to that, but uh so I started reading um Catholic documents, I read the catechism, I read the trajectory of Catholic theology since the second Vatican Council. I went way further, of course, and I read about church history and the disturbing history of Jewish Christian relations. And and so looking at the catechism today and what uh nostra etate says, that's the uh the central document of the second Vatican Council on the church's relations with uh other religions. And uh, the church certainly has uh changed very much in her attitude towards the Jewish people, much more echoing St. Paul now Romans 9 to 11. The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Now, the church has been pretty prudent in affirming a theological role uh for Israel as a nation.

SPEAKER_08 42:12

St. Paul talking about the the the gifts and the calling and the promises are still are not revoked, right? And God never uh I have repeatedly warned Andre, the person in the clip, Josh, that the unanimous rejects it on various issues. He has ignored my warnings. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 42:34

He he he I've done the same thing. I've I've I've had run-ins with Andre before, and like I've I've tried to come up, try to approach him with all these the theological arguments. The only thing he's been able to do is just call me an anti-Semite and just blow me off. That's all he does. He's not he doesn't yeah, he doesn't have good faith when it comes to people like us.

SPEAKER_08 42:55

Not not in any way, right? And you can see he's coming in with this position that he wants to um approach this issue with before he even becomes Catholic. Like he's coming into the Catholic faith with this uh with this premise that he wants to figure out a way to make the you know these the this acceptable. And he's he's behind a lot a lot of the a lot of the uh Hebrew Catholic stuff and things like that. So it's yeah, it it is concerning. So this is this is the guy who uh came up with this article. You want to play, I think I put a second clip in there, right? You did, yep. Because that was pretty, pretty wild what he says in this one, too.

SPEAKER_03 43:37

Real quick, he's he's very well connected, and you'll notice that what he said glibly was disturbing history, was actually Catholic tradition. Yeah, so that's just a passing comment, but that's how we characterize this Catholic tradition. And I'm really grateful for Joshua Charles for saying that because you look at the patristics, and Justin has covered this too, and you go all the way up into the modern period, too, there is this unanimous. Consensus and that's just being ignored.

SPEAKER_08 44:02

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Glad to see Josh in the comments chiming in.

SPEAKER_07 44:07

Um, you know, I well, Josh is in the comments. I just want to say, Anthony, how absolutely despicable it was that you called him a pain in the ass in the last show. Stop. He is such a wonderful person. I cannot believe that you called him a pain in the ass.

SPEAKER_08 44:22

Stop it. Stop. Rob, stop calling the drama.

SPEAKER_07 44:29

Okay, are we ready for the next clip?

SPEAKER_01 44:35

The church recognized the state of Israel in 1993. So you might say it took him a while. And we know that if you go on the on social media and you follow traditionalist Catholics who are really holding the line of this old uh replacement theology, they're often going to quote Pope Pius X, who met with Theodore Herzl and said, We cannot support this movement of return back to the land. Now, the irony is that all these traditional Catholics, they're not citing the Magisterium, they're citing Herzl. So Herzl here is their authority. This is not an official teaching of the church, right? This is from Herzl's diaries. Um, but yeah, it took a while for the church because it's almost unavoidable this uh inter this interplay between theology and politics. At first, it's like, well, we can't support the Jews founding a state because now we're the true Israel, we're the new Israel, and and God is is done with the nation of Israel as a nation. But then the nation comes along and there's issues of international law.

SPEAKER_08 45:45

We don't say that God is done with Israel as a nation well at all. Like we're saying they are a witness people, and God still does have them. Yeah, they are still a part of salvation history in that they will be gathered back into the land at the end of time, and then Elias and Enoch will convert a segment of them at the end of time, right?

SPEAKER_07 46:07

We're not saying he's done with them, we're saying they're gonna usher in the Antichrist.

SPEAKER_08 46:10

Yes, they're going to usher in the end of times, but also not just that, uh it was something that um when we had um Sam Shemoon on, that was incredible what he pointed out, how Apocalypse 3 is flipping the prophecy in Isaiah on its head, where in Isaiah it says all the nations will come to gather and and bow at Israel's feet. And in the Apocalypse, John flips that around to say the synagogue will bow and recognize the church as the true Israel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:46

And and Justin, you can jump in right after this, and that's why you see that famous piece of artwork where you have the triumphant church and she's holding the sacraments, which were prefigured by the rites of the old law, and then you have the defeated synagogue, and she is blindfolded. That's the ecclesia e synagoga. And so that's an extremely important. Find that, Robin. What is it called? Ecclesia e- synagoga.

SPEAKER_04 47:10

Ecclesia at synagoga, yeah. Ecclesia, it's it's a statue of two women.

SPEAKER_03 47:15

Um and then one other thing, just before we go over to Justin, what Dr. Acosta omitted here, and this is a standard traditional position on this question: the status of Israel after the rejection of Christ until their eventual conversion. This is Cardinal Fallhaber wrote writing in 1934. He says, Quote, before the death of Christ, during the period between the calling of Abraham, the fullness of time, the people of Israel were the vehicle of divine revelation. After the death of Christ, Israel was dismissed from the service of revelation. She had not known the time of her visitation, she had repudiated and rejected the Lord's anointed, had driven him out of the city and nailed him to the cross. Last sentence here. Then the veil of the temple was rent, and with it the covenant between the Lord and his people, the daughters of Zion, received the bill of divorce. So that's what he omits, and that's Catholic tradition. You do have that expectation from St. Paul and unanimous consensus of the fathers of that eventual conversion, but in that interim period, Israel has been dismissed. She has been rejected. Not because God was unfaithful, of course not. That's blasphemous. It was because carnal Israel was, and what they expected of the Messiah was a temporal political ruler, a military figure, and they rejected our Lord who came in all humility, riding on a donkey in Jerusalem. And that's the tragedy of Israel. And Justin, if you want to pick up right from there, I just want to make that point.

SPEAKER_04 48:43

No, no, no, no, that's fine. Uh, if you don't mind, I want to talk a little bit about Dr. Andre for a second, um, if I can. So,

Supersessionism Fulfillment And Dogma

SPEAKER_04 48:50

Dr. Andre uh says supersessionism is a heresy, in case you guys uh he called it a heresy before. So here's the thing like what Josh Charles was saying is correct. It both uh the Council of Trent uh and the First Vatican Council say say that we must believe the faith, like the there's a consensus of the fathers on a matter of the faith as comes coming from scripture. We must hold that to be certain teaching, right? And when it comes to these these these things that we talk about, like American Reform and I talk about things like the enmity, the enmity of the Jews. Like I have every single church father and doctor on my website, Christ the King.info. Go to my website, you'll see all the church fathers and doctors there. I got them quoted, source and cited, scholaries, scholaries, citations. Um, as far as the enmity of the Jews, as far as the fact that the the Jews killed Christ, um, as far as the fact that the old covenant has been fulfilled and the new covenant has replaced it, you can call it supersessionism, fulfillmentful uh theology, whatever you want. All the church fathers hold that. Um, and as far as the you know, as far as these the the thing is about the land promises, that goes into denying supersessionism, right? And that's why Dr. Andre has to deny supersessionism because he has to essentially claim that what that's what these dispensationalists do. And Dr. Andre is a dispensationalist, just like he's a Christian Zionist. What they have to do is they have to claim that there is still some sort of old uh uh a fragment of the old covenant left. And this goes, speaking of certain Catholic teaching, this goes against the dogma proclaimed in Cantante Domino 1442 under Pope Eugene IV, which dogmatically said that the Mosaic law, all the ceremonies, circumcision, everything, all the promises of the of the old covenant have been fulfilled, completed in Christ, and in and all these the old fragments of the old covenant, the ceremonies, ceremonial law, judicial precepts, and even like the the mosaic law and everything are null and void, abrogated, they they can't be practiced without mortal sin, right? And that's that's dogma, and that's the problem with these neo-Judaizers, is they're denying the dogma of Florence, and they're also denying the unanimous consensus of the fathers on these matters, and that's why their theology is uh not only erroneous, it's dangerous and harmful to souls, and that's why people like me in American for reform have to push so harshly against it.

SPEAKER_08 51:32

Well, there's also something prophetic in that the first heresy was Judaizing and the last heresy will be the same, right? And the whole the whole idea that um that we aren't supersessionists is absurd because the Jews, as part of their punishment, Christ comes and he tells the Pharisees, you have filled up God's cup of wrath, and you have one generation to repent. And if you don't repent, not one stone will stand on top of another. And their dispersion amongst the nations is the same as Cain's dispersion. They they walk around the earth without a land, without a home, with the mark of Cain on them to show that they are descendants of Cain. And the whole point is from Genesis 3:15 that there will be enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent, and Cain is the seed of the serpent, right? So they're dispersed amongst the nations for this period. There's nothing salvific about anything, they are absolutely cursed. It is God's judgment that comes upon them. When the Romans come in and destroy the temple, that is God's wrath and God's punishment. So even like the shady language that the that Noshratate uses by saying that we are not allowed to say that the Jews are a curse, it's like it if you believe that the old covenant is still valid, what they are under are the curses of the old covenant because they have not obeyed that covenant. So even by saying that God has not revoked his covenant, it's like, oh, if they still have a covenant with God, they have broken it and they are under the curses of those covenant, right?

SPEAKER_04 53:07

And that that was exactly the point I was making in my um the not dialogue debate, but dialogue with Gideon Lazar here recently was that um it that he essentially his point was that the fact that they're cursed, and he actually admits that they're cursed. We I don't know if you guys saw the dialogue, but he says the the fact that they're cursed, he believes he believes that means they're still in a covenant. And I was like, I was like, no, no, what that means is they broke the covenant. That's that's the whole point. The covenant is a contract, that is the terms for breaking the covenant, and God is eternal, so the the terms and conditions will be applied as long as the c as the contract is still broken, and like and this is what the church fathers have always said, but like the unfortunately, we're we're living in a world where people like you're not hearing this from the pulpit, you're not hearing this from the the Vatican, so people don't realize that this is what the church has always taught about these things. Supersessionism is essentially dogmatic, even if the word supersessionism wasn't uh defined dogmatically in Florence itself.

SPEAKER_08 54:16

What's too what's super interesting is that even in the we did the show discussing Scott Hahn and Gavin uh Gavin Ashenden, their conversation, and even in that conversation, like Scott Hahn is the most normie Catholic in like the in the in the in the you know in the mainstream, and even he says, like Jews that are under the old covenant, it's like being in a burning house, is how he described it. Like you're in a house that is on fire, you need to convert and come back.

SPEAKER_03 54:46

That is a good analogy, and to underscore the importance of Florence, obviously that's a dogmatic decree, but as recently as Mystic Corpus, and this is Pope Pius XII, in 1943, he taught definitively that the old law expired the moment the side of Jesus Christ, our Lord, was pierced, and then the new covenant was established in his blood. And so to suggest that the old covenant remains irrevocable as a path to salvation to God, the Father, as if you could have the Father without the Son, that is actually denying Catholic dogma. The old covenant was made void at the death of Christ, and theologians teach that with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, it became deadly to observe. That was a divine sign from God that his judgment was against Israel because of their unfaithfulness.

SPEAKER_04 55:40

Here's the distinctions. Here's the distinctions because the the promises, Romans 11 29 does say the promises and gifts and the callings are to are are irrevocable, right? Here's the distinction. Paul is not saying that the covenant is uh the covenant to the Jews is irrevocable. He's saying that the promises are irrevocable and they're fulfilled in Christ Jesus. So if the Jews, and this is the point I was making to Gideon Lazar, if the Jews want to receive the promises, they can. They merely have to convert to Catholicism. That's the good news. The evangelium, the gospel.

SPEAKER_08 56:20

What Paul is saying there is, I am a Jew. Of course, the promise is not revoked, I have received the promise. Amen. Yes, yes, right. Like Paul is saying, I am a Jew from the tribe of Benjamin. I have, of course, the promises are not revoked. I have received the promises, they are fulfilled in Christ. Of course, they haven't been revoked, I've received them. And the first Christians do start out as Jews. Peter is preaching on Pentecost to the Jews, telling them, you who killed the prophets, you who crucified the Messiah, the promises are for you, and they all get baptized, right? So like this idea that there's anything salvific about the old covenant is absurd. Now, I will say, like Joshua Charles said here, like the Jews are still a covenantal people in that um like in the sense that God has made promises of of to their nation, right? Like there are still things that need to be fulfilled to these people. It's just nothing to do with them being um it's it's it's all apocalyptic. Like, like all of those promises are about the eschaton and about the end of time, and it's about them finally recognizing that they did kill their messiah, right?

SPEAKER_03 57:39

The same Saint Paul in the epistle to the Romans, where he talks about his love for his his countrymen, carnal Israel, he also gives a warning to us. I mean, we're all Gentiles here. He says, Do not boast, because you were grafted into the tree, and so that's why you can't present this teaching in an incomplete way, which is done by these neo-Judaizers. They don't mention that Jews are enemies for the sake of the gospel. But then the other thing, too, is that you do have certain what you might call radical or unchristian anti-Semites who are actually reveling in the idea that obviously we are in the church now and we have the election that once belonged to the Israel of the Old Testament. So that's that that dual warning, that moderate Catholic view, and it's not this false dichotomy constructed by Jews who ostensibly have converted or neo-Judaizers and these

Romans 11 Humility And Real Charity

SPEAKER_03 58:30

types.

SPEAKER_08 58:30

Yeah, exactly. If you go if you go back to uh the time before Christ, right, you have when the 10 when the 10 northern tribes break off, they start getting into idolatry, and then God punishes them and sends in the Assyrians to destroy them and they get dispersed, right? And the southern tribe of Judah is arrogant, and they're like, Well, we have the temple and they're acting arrogant, and God sends the Babylonians in to destroy them too. Like that that lesson is there for us as well, where I think that's what Paul is saying. Like, don't get haughty and don't get too proud because God can cut us off the same way he did. Because I think God resists the proud even when they're right, you know, like that that that's that's kind of an important thing to recognize. And that's why I think what American Reform said there is actually really important. That and and we also have to make sure that we don't develop a real hatred of Jews, like this is we're discussing all of this in theological terms because we're just trying to understand the story and the way it plays out.

SPEAKER_04 59:30

Yeah, no, you're exact absolutely right. I think I think it's really under important to understand Romans 11, like even in the context of Romans 9 through 11, but like Romans 11 starts out the first two verses talking about how St. Paul talking, how he's a Jew from the tribe of Benjamin, saying, Look, God did not reject the Jews, right? Because the Jews were the ones that were denied the Messiah. God did not reject the Jews, the Jews denied the Messiah, and then the middle part of Romans 11, he brings up the olive tree, which is a throwback to Jeremiah's and um Isaiah's and others, where he's like talks about how the people of God, Israel, are an olive tree. You know, the root, of course, is Jesus Christ, and then the like the the main the the the main branches that come off the Christ are the prophets and the patriarchs and the Jews of the flesh that believe, like the old testament Jews and even like the apostles and stuff like that. But then the Jews that don't believe have been broken off of this olive tree, right? And this has been a blessing to us Gentiles that they've been broken off so that we can be broke grafted in, right? It's kind of like how the the angels that fell out of the sky and into hell was a blessing to us so we can be saved now, right? Same thing. So we shouldn't boast against these Jews that that um have broken themselves off of the covenant. We should have pity for them. We should try to help them and love them and want them to come back in. And that's why, you know, when it he gets to Romans 11 25 through through 26, he this is the prophecy that in the end times they will see the light, the veil will be lifted off of their eyes and they will see the light. But until then, like he says in Romans 11 28, they are enemies for our sake, they are our enemies, but they're still beloved. And going back to what Josh was saying, Josh Charles was saying, they are still loved and they still are going to be loved as a people, and God wants them to be come back into the the olive tree and to convert, and they will on the end of the and the end of time, but until they come back in, they're broken off, right? So that promise is still there, but it's still in the covenant that exists in true Israel, which is the church, through Christ Jesus, right? So the promise exists, the covenant is there, but they're outside of the covenant until they convert, if that makes any sense. And let me tell you something else, though.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:57

Like the the the standard for a Catholic is even way higher than it is for a Jew, right? So like every time we commit mortal sin, like we say the Jews rejected the covenant because they reject the messiah. Every time we choose mortal sin, we reject God. Like you're you're doing that. Now we have a way to to fix that relationship through the sacrament through the sacraments, but it is essentially you are every it is a form of idolatry anytime you commit a mortal sin because you're choosing something else other than God. So like we have a uh a higher standard for us as Catholics than even the Jews do. So um uh this

Third Temple Questions And Competing Views

SPEAKER_08 1:02:35

is a good question. Josh is asking before we get into that article. Uh, because I saw uh we we saw uh Father Ripper was on a few different uh shows where he was, I think it was Tucker or it was on Sean uh whatever uh Sean Ryan. Sean Ryan show where he said that there's absolutely no chance a third temple will be built. Wrong. Um I'm not sure what I'm not sure where I stand on that. I I think there may be at least an attempt at a third temple or something like that, but I don't I'm not sure that that's okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:06

So here's the thing that is funny because that talk came out around the same time I did my video on the antichrist. There are so in fairness to Father Rippiger, there are two common opinions of the church fathers here. There's one common opinion that, like the one that Father Ripper holds that, like, and it's still consistent with 2 Thessalonians 2, where it, you know, he says that the Antichrist, the man of lawlessness, will rule from the temple of God. Um, that the the Catholic Church will be the temple that the Antichrist rolls from, right? But there is an older trans uh tradition from the uh Ante Nicene Fathers uh that comes again from the Johannine line, from um, you know, like Irenaeus, uh and uh Hippolytus and others that say that the third temple will be rebuilt and the Antichrist will rule from the third temple. So, from a Catholic perspective, you know, it is it is up in the air. Either the third temple will be rebuilt, but it will only be rebuilt by the antichrist, right? Because like it failed when you know the Julian the apostate tried to rebuild it. So it will only be rebuilt by the Antichrist, and then you will know if it's rebuilt by the Antichrist, and he rolls from there that that's the Antichrist. But the other go ahead.

SPEAKER_08 1:04:26

Well, the other with the two the the other two opinions in that if the if the church is the new Israel and we are the new temple, right? Like like the church is the new temple, it it is understandable how an interpretation can be brought that the antichrist will rule from the new temple or like seat himself in the place of of the new temple.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:48

Yeah. I mean, and it could be it could be a an analogy for something else. It could be like uh, you know, like he's like uh a huge United Nations building or something like that. So we we you know there could be an analogous reading as well, but like the the the two traditions are either the main traditions, or either it's going to be he's actually gonna be re rebuilding the third temple, or it will be the Catholic Church that has essentially at least apostasized from the top down, uh, at the end of the time at the end times.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:18

An analogy like an Abrahamic house of prayer.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:23

Well, uh, and and even this needs a caveat because Father Riviger did say from the church fathers I've read. He didn't say there's a unanimous consensus of the church fathers that I've read. So I don't want to, you know, he said that. Yeah, yeah, they give him credit. He said that. Yeah. Um, all right, let's get into this article

Reading The Article And Key Claims

SPEAKER_08 1:05:40

a little bit. Let's try to go through some of the points here because this is kind of kind of craziness. And this is this is what worries me and in the whole idea of this kosher Catholicism being presented because you see guys like Knowles and Matt Frad, and uh what's what's that girl they have over there? Uh Simone Catholicism. No, the the girl was her name, Abigail or something. Are you thinking of Abby Shapiro? No, I'm not. The girl at the Daily Wire. Isabel Brown? Isabel Brown. There you go. Isabel Brown. Um, there so like it's like the Daily Wire has hired a bunch of Catholics, and I think that is very intentional. I don't think yeah, they have uh Matt Walsh, Matt Frad, Michael Knowles, and Isabel Brown, right? That that is a very intentional thing that they're doing because they're trying to present this version of Catholicism where it's acceptable to support the state of Israel or at least remain neutral. Like Matt Walsh kind of remains neutral and he just doesn't talk about it. And he's like, that's an acceptable position where you just don't even talk about it and pretend that every single thing that's happening in the world right now is not because like every every everything that we're seeing happen in the world right now is because of Israel antagonizing things. So uh the article starts Catholic group asked Pope Leo to clarify church's stance on Israel. Should Catholics interpret the creation and enduring existence of the state of Israel as a sign of God's providence, or should they not? Catholic voices for Israel ask Pope Leo in an open letter. So Catholic Voices for Israel is asking why do they always do that and repeat the whole thing they just said? In an open letter addressed to Pope Leo on June 22nd, the group's co-founders, Andrei Villanueve and Father Antoine Levy, are asking the Holy Father to answer the question: Should Catholics interpret the creation and enduring existence of the state of Israel as a sign of God's providence, or should they not?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:33

Now, even that would like yes, not the state of Israel, but like I don't I don't well, here's where I'd I'd say you'd have to make the distinction between God's wise will and his permissive will. So in his wise will, you have the perpetual dispersion of the Jews and their being subject to Christian princes as a witness people, preserved until the end of time, preserved just like Cain, you talked about him before, and that typology where he was marked in a special way. Well, the same is true of the Jews, and that's why the Catholic Church, in her wisdom, introduced all of those types of legislation to mark Jews in a special way and to set them apart from Christian society, not only to protect our societies from their pernicious influence, but to protect them. But that's what he he doesn't mention there.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:27

Yeah, he's not he's not clarified. Now, now I I I know American Reform has a different position on like I I know you you hold a different position than I do, but I would say even with the mess that the current hierarchy is in, like Pope Francis made a point to call that priest in Gaza every night, right? Pope Leo even sees the atrocities happening in Palestine right now. Like this guy is still, even with the mess that the current hierarchy is in, this guy is shooting for something that will I do not see happening. Um, okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:05

Can I make a distinction real quick? I also see uh the Gideon Lazars in the chat too. So I want to uh say something here. So, like, okay, so it is going along with what American Reform is saying, there is a difference between God's permissive will and God's active will, right? He active wanting actively wanting something. So God, everything in the world that happens happens because it happens according to God's permissive will, even like rape and murder and horrible things happens according to God's permissive will. We can't get past, we can't get around that as Catholic theologians. But however, just because going along with that, just because something has historically happened doesn't mean that that was God's act of will, that that was God's desire, that's what he wanted. It just means it at least happened according to his permissive will. So if something that happened, like that the Zionists have moved into Palestine and made a state in 1948, can we say that that happened according to God's permissive will? Yeah, but it doesn't mean that it was God's act of will that that that this this happened, and that's what we're arguing against. Not that it happened, but it it was God's act of will that it happened.

SPEAKER_08 1:10:17

But what if God is allowing it specifically because the fullness of time has you know what I mean? Like, I I don't know if that that needs a further qualification there, because in some sense, God prevented them from gathering for 2,000 years, and for him, like it might be a not just well, yeah, no, it would still be his permissive will, he's allowing them to gather back in, but it was no matter what, it will still serve his purpose in the end, right? Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:46

Right. The antichrist will serve his purpose, but it's still the antichrist, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:50

And that's and that's where obviously God's mind is not going to be known to us, but that's where it can actually work for his glory. Now, that's not to say that we shouldn't oppose this correct project of Jewish control and political sovereignty in the in the Holy Land, which I know we all agree on that. Yeah, but that's that's what people don't get. And the one thing I want to draw to is there was actually an indication in a decision that Pope Pius XI approved in 1928. So this is his suppression of Amichi Israel, which was this ecumenical, phyllo-Semitic, Judaizing group. And when he condemned unchristian forms of anti-Semitism, he also said that, quote, the Catholic Church has always been accustomed to pray for the Jewish people who were the depository of divine promises up until the arrival of Jesus Christ, notwithstanding their subsequent blindness, or rather, because of this blindness. And that's something that you won't hear the so-called Hebrew Catholics talk about today, the current blindness of the Jews, and that when our Lord was put on the cross, they ceased to be the bearer of divine revelation, and all of and the prerogatives of that Israel of the Old Testament transferred and were fulfilled in the true Israel, which is the Catholic Church, which is spiritual principally.

SPEAKER_08 1:12:11

I also do see God allowing a hardness of heart to come over the church at this time, right? Like there's there's still um I mean, you see it in our hierarchy everywhere. Like God is allowing a hardness of heart to happen, even within the church that that is going to also play into this end times scenario where um, like when we were going through Ticonius, Ticonius said, just like our Lord, like the church will be delivered up to the authorities in the church. So, like, there's going to be I mean, this is obviously my own personal interpretation, but I see some way where the synagogue colludes with the hierarchy and they persecute the faithful, and that's because that's what happened to our Lord, and we have to follow him in his passion, death, and resurrection.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:03

Anthony, you've got to read the plot against the church that was distributed in 1962 to all of the council fathers. That's good. You'd get a lot out of that book, and it's you'll you'll see things that things are really starting to change with that.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:17

It's on my website.

SPEAKER_08 1:13:18

Um, okay, so

Luke 21 And End Times Speculation

SPEAKER_08 1:13:20

also, yeah, this is good. Yeah. So I mean, this is uh Luke 21, 24. If you want to bring it up, Rob, this is where Christ says Jerusalem will be trodden underfoot until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. Yeah. Um, like I I don't I don't know how any of these conversations happen without the the eschatological implications of it, you know. So like Rob Rob Robin Rob and I have always kind of like disagreed about like is this a type of end times? Is it the end times? But even when we get into this topic, Rob's like, yeah, I don't know, man. The fact that the Jews are back in Jerusalem kind of well.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:59

I mean no, I I I I still don't think it's the end times, right? I just don't. I don't I don't see how you can escape it because I do think well the majority of the world's Jews still still are not in Israel. I mean, I don't think that's true. You can't you can't say necessarily that the that that they've all been gathered back in, but I mean who knows what percent is required, right? But yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_08 1:14:25

I just I don't think it's the answer. What do you what do you guys make of it?

SPEAKER_04 1:14:28

So here's my here's my can I say something real quick? Um one thing is like uh I know Gideon's in the chat, like I want to make something clear of what we're not saying, just because we're saying that Christian Zionism and dispensationalism aren't consistent with the the church teaching, like the fact that of the matter that Jews have existed, have lived in the in the Palestinian region for over 2,000 years since Christ is not disputed. I know Gideon brought up before, like, well, you know, uh Augustine even says uh points out in his city of God that Jews live in the Palestinian region, right? And like Abraham and some people point out that Abraham's covenant is different than the Mosaic covenant and different than the Noah covenant, etc. Right, but all covenants, old covenants were fulfilled in Christ's. Uh and as far as uh Jews living in the Palestinian region, there's nobody's trying to kick Jews out, or that's not what we're arguing. We're arguing the the argument is whether or not Jews have a theological entitlement to say this is their land and this is the the land of their people, and uh uh and they're the people of God that can build a temple and worship their God in this land. And we're saying no, because that has all been fulfilled and completed in Christ, right? So that's really what we're saying here. And as far as um, you know, uh, yeah, so the land promise is really a non-factor when it comes down to it, because they can live there, they just don't have the entitlement, the spiritual entitlement there, right? They can own land just like anybody else, they just don't have a spiritual entitlement.

SPEAKER_08 1:16:09

Yeah, I think that's like the main point. Like, there's no they don't have a right to exist any more than anybody else has a right to exist, they don't have and it's and specifically, I like what what Andre is saying here that this is like they they have a divine right to this land because it's some spiritual promise to God that he gave to Abraham that's being fulfilled right now. I think it's the exact opposite of of that. Um, all right, so let's let's continue on. So while the pair note that the church's reticence to pronounce on the theological meaning of the state of Israel has served a real purpose, they proceed to express concerns over a number of Catholic commentators who they contend have interpreted this silence as a formal dismissal of the very possibility of ascribing any theological resonance to the founding of the state of Israel and to its enduring existence. Yes, I would be one of those commentators. Um the church is and and look, the thing is, I like I like Gideon. I'm friends with Gideon. I have a lot of private conversations with him. Like he would be the the the uh one one person I would feel comfortable having this conversation with. Um I like I I know I know Gideon uh is trying to work through this stuff himself, so it's you know, I'm not I don't say that as in in in any kind of a negative way. So the the church's silence regarding Israel's right to exist, a reluctance to go beyond mere political recognition, on par with that, extended to the still incoate state of Palestine in 2013, gives ground to all those Catholic voices that wish to lend this lend this campaign of denigration, the authority of the church's own name, the letter manifests.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:50

Well, here you see an equivocation from Dr. Andre when he talks about Israel's right to exist. Is he referring to the nation of Israel, which is to say a physiological union, a people, or is he talking about the state, the political entity of Israel? So Catholic theology militates against the latter, but not the former. And this is the same distinction that was actually maintained by Pope St. Pius X in 1903 in that meeting with Theodore Herzl, where he actually said, and this is the godfather of the Zionist movement, he said, if you do come here, we're not exactly happy about that, but we will be willing to baptize you and we want you to convert into the church. So there wasn't that complete opposition to that, even mass Jewish migration back into the Holy Land. But he was clear about that, they could not have sovereignty and political control, which is distinct from the Jewish migration there.

SPEAKER_08 1:18:46

That's what has to be distinguished because yeah, I think they they could even reside in that land if it was under a uh a Christian ruler or something like that. They would always have a right to exist and safety, they would always have that right.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:03

Like the the issue that the church had was we can't we can't like lend um we can't recognize their political legitimacy, and this was continued. I I did a lot of research into this. This was continued by Pope Benedict XV, Pope Pius X, and even Pope Pius XII, who made the same distinction in one of his delegates. And there was there was agitation in the United States where they were talking about bringing Jews to the Holy Land, and they said, Okay, we can tolerate that, but we cannot tolerate a Jewish state because of the implications of that. So that is that distinction, and that's something that Dr. Andre is not going to make. And to most people, they go, Of course, Israel has a right to exist, but what they're thinking about are the Jewish people, and that's an equivocal term. We're talking about the Jewish state and their political sovereignty, and so they smuggle that in, and most people miss that.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:56

Yeah, again, from a natural laws point of view, no state has a right to exist, it only has the right to exist in as much as it can protect itself. I mean, but a people, they you know, people are even not a non-sovereign people, of course, uh uh from a Catholic pers perspective, we don't believe in genocide or anything like that, right? So this is this is where this equivocation gets it it it's it's he's making an argument that is just uh go ahead.

Moving The Rest To Locals

SPEAKER_08 1:20:29

Well, well, actually, what I'm gonna say is what I'm gonna say is usually like I I say we're gonna go to locals and switch topics, but I do want to go to locals tonight and maybe we'll get to some things that we wouldn't feel comfortable saying on YouTube, but we're we're gonna continue this discussion over there. I definitely want to get you guys back on um on the YouTube side also, but we're going to for anybody that's not subscribed to our locals, we have to do right by our locals subscribers because last episode with Nancy Charles, we did not give them locals content, and these people pay for it. So we did an hour and 20 minutes over here. So if you guys would like to hear the rest of the discussion, please follow us over there. Um, yes, you do need to pay for that, Gary. Uh, our local side is where we actually, you know, we actually have uh we we're a little more free to talk over there, and we uh we get into some some better stuff over there. So if you guys want to hear the rest of this conversation, jump over to our locals. We'll see you guys on the other side. Robbie got a video or a song to take us out or something.

SPEAKER_07 1:21:27

Uh uh Yeah, give me a second here.

SPEAKER_08 1:21:30

Um wait, wait, wait, before we go, whoa, whoa. You guys, where can people find you? Yeah, so Catholic State, you have a YouTube channel and you're also on X, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:21:40

Yep, yep. My YouTube channel, you can just go at the Catholic State or Christ the King is my ministry. My website is Christ the King.info, and you can find all my links and especially on my website, go to Christ the King.info. You'll see I have a whole section, all the church fathers, doctors, magisterium, everything you could want about the Jewish question is on my website.

SPEAKER_08 1:22:00

Uh and Catholic State, like just go check his videos out. They're they're usually short to the point, and he's got a ton of knowledge. Like, I've learned a ton watching your channel, man. Very, very grateful for what you get, what you do. Thank you. Um, American Reform, I know you're on X. Do you have anything else you uh yes?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:16

And I just want to reiterate thank you again for having me on. I really appreciate it, both you and Rob. And if you're interested in finding more about my work, research, my commentary, my analysis, you can go to my Substack. That's at the Journal of American Reform, or you can find me on X at American Reform. And thank you so much.

SPEAKER_08 1:22:36

Yeah, no, we'll definitely we're gonna get you guys back on YouTube again. I just we gotta we have to give stuff for our local guys. They literally keep the lights on over here for us.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:44

So we should probably read Patrick Super Chat.

SPEAKER_08 1:22:47

Oh, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we have to do this before we go. So, why do you think the conversion of the pagan world by the martyrs at the start of Christendom was so successful, but not the soup uh suppression of the of Protestant Protestantism and modernism by the saints of the Reformation and the and these popes in the encyclical series?

SPEAKER_07 1:23:06

I would say Protestantism was actually being pretty success successfully uh repressed up until the Enlightenment. Now, why why did why why things failed so bad against the Enlightenment? Uh I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_08 1:23:23

I I just think that we're watching um we're watching the story play out, and the story has to come to a conclusion, and it's just taken like the the beauty of what Christendom built has taken them 500 plus years to destroy. Like that's how solid the foundation of Christendom was. That even once they destroyed the once they destroyed uh church and state relations and they pushed through all the insanity of the modern world and the enlightenment, it still can't totally destroy what foundation is there from Christian civilization in the Catholic Church before the Reformation.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:07

Yeah, I agree with that. It's basically what's been happening for the past several hundred years. It's the destruction of the Chris Christendom and the rise of the synagogue. And it it's not a quick process, it's a very slow and and arduous process that that what you were saying earlier has to happen to fulfill the end time prophecy, but it's not something we should celebrate. It's just it is what it is.

SPEAKER_08 1:24:29

Yeah, and all things will work for the glory of God in the end. And just the the the same way Catholics used to see things on a multi-generational, like building a cathedral and would take four or five hundred years. I think the synagogue has seen their destruction of Christendom in the same way. They're like, let's think hundreds of years out and how we could take this thing down, and we're just seeing it start to unravel now in our time. So, all right, we're going over to locals, guys. We will see you on the other side. Take us out, Rob.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:03

Come to the peace of heaven and earth. Come to the table of penalty. God will provide all the knee here at the table of penalty.

SPEAKER_09 1:25:28

Where says headsitors are friends. I wait too well tender. Okay. That's enough of that.

SPEAKER_08 1:25:38

We America Reform, we did that for you since you never endured the Novus Ordo, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's well I did. I did.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:44

Oh, you did. Yeah, I saw the Paulus Fathers too. One of the most liberal orders, too.

SPEAKER_08 1:25:49

Oh my goodness, that's why you went the way you did.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:53

No, no, not not quite, but I did experience it.

SPEAKER_08 1:25:57

Um yeah, I uh I I I do want to get into like theories you guys have about um like I've had Dr. Deep State on, and he's like um he he's really into like think talking about like Kabbalah and like some of the crazy um spectacle of everything. So maybe we could get into that too. But you guys want to finish continue with this article just because there's still there's still some to it.

Why “Catholic Zionism” Sparks Pushback

SPEAKER_08 1:26:24

So uh in his founding statement for Zion's sake, a Catholic appeal in support of Israel, the recently formed Catholic voices for Israel cause calls for Catholic Zionism to be oh man, just that it is such an moronic term. That I kind of want to talk about that a little bit, like this this cloaking of the term of Zionism, because like uh we saw that with like Carrie Prajon Bowler when she was coming around, and you saw how messy that whole thing got because she based the whole thing on religious freedom, and like this encyclical series has really shown us like the just the filth of of the of the Enlightenment, and she's cloaking the whole thing in religious freedom, and she's teaming up with Muslims, and it's all about Zionism, and it's like I feel like we need to stop cloaking our language in this anti-Zionism stuff, and we need to just start actually talking about the things we talked about tonight.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:20

I agree, I agree. I mean, it's more it's like, are you for the Jews or are you against the Jews? That's really the question, you know. I mean, if you're if you're against the Jews, then you're anti-Zionists and you're anti-Hollywood and you're anti-pornography and you're anti-uh feminism and you're anti-all this other crap. But if you're for the Jews, then you're probably for all that other crap.

SPEAKER_08 1:27:44

Yeah, that's the irony of Knowles, right? Knowles is talking about like supporting the state of Israel in the way he does. It's like you're supporting this, like when you get into all of these wicked ideologies and the LGBT stuff like that, all stems from the synagogue.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:00

Well, here's the thing, and and maybe your viewers don't know about this. This is a little bit of inside baseball. And again, I like Michael Knowles. He's a Catholic, and he's obviously misguided on a lot of these subjects, but I think he's of goodwill. His wife is Jewish. She converted. Yes, his wife is actually ethnically Jewish. Now she converted to Catholicism, but think about that. His in-laws are Jews. Okay. And he went to Yale, which is a university that is filled with Jews. And his entire career began in Hollywood. He's friends with Claven, who's a Jew. His wife is a Jew by blood. Now that's what Knowles is coming in with. And so he has that baggage from his wife, which explains, in my view, and this doesn't excuse it, don't get me wrong, it doesn't excuse it, but explains his sensitivity on the issue. But I also think he's at fault, though, for taking the Jewish money of Ben Shapiro, and that's purchases silence. The same thing with Matt Frad. Right when Matt Frad signed with the Daily Wire, and Matt Frad does he does some good work, but what that ensured is that his silence on these very important issues, like you guys, you have the courage to speak out, and it's not even popular. Matt Frad won't speak out because his silence has been purchased. And so that's that's what a lot of people don't realize is that these people have real human lives, they have connections, and they don't want to offend like their in-laws or maybe their wife. Like that's that's like the reality for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_08 1:29:27

Because I really think if Knowles didn't have that baggage, I think he'd be phenomenal on this subject because he's good, he's really good on other subjects, and I think this subject is just he it it destroys him. Like he can't even really think through it logically because of that. I had no idea that that was the subject.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:45

I didn't know either. He told me that uh, I guess some more insider knowledge. Apparently, he was also in a Jewish fraternity at Yale as well. Yeah, I've heard that.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:58

Uh yeah, and it's actually funny. You can find this clip on X. So there was a Daily Wire backstage event, and Ben Shapiro laughs at Michael Knowles and he says, Are Jewish wives? And it's like, and and Michael chuckled right after that. It was just like a passing comment, and that's how people found out that his wife, her her maiden name is Mahler, and she's she's a converted too, so she's a Catholic, but ethnically she's Jewish.

SPEAKER_08 1:30:23

Yeah, and the thing is, I think it's similar to uh even Gideon with something like that, where he has Jewish family, right? And that's gotta be a tricky spot to be in. You become Catholic, and I know he was like nominally Jewish growing up, but like all of a sudden you're in this world with I mean, the the the only there's really no other force that has resisted Jewish power like the Catholic Church. So they do have this history of resisting Jewish power for 2,000 years, and then all of a sudden you become Catholic and you have this Jewish family you have to contend with.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:02

Yeah, I mean, I I I understand it. I try to sympathize with people like this. Like, I just I made my video today, like I released my video today contra Trent Horn for like the bazillion time. But I mean it it it only it only goes so far though, like okay, yeah, I get it. Trent, your dad was a Jew, but like, you know, like these people are they're they're lying, they are just and completely complicit through silence.

SPEAKER_08 1:31:30

It's not what even what they do say, it's what they don't say. Um, because I had made this point about Frad when Frad was joining the Daily Wire, like Frad was never going to be the Jewish question guy, even if he didn't go there, like he just wasn't going to be that guy. But now that he is there, he's definitely not going to go near certain guests. He's not going to get like it's just it's basically um putting him in a in a box where and and and he has that notoriety and seal of approval from the mainstream church, and now he's working at the Daily Wire, so that kind of gives cover to the things, the filth that Ben Shapiro spews.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:12

And think about this the second order effects. So now he has a bigger platform than, say, Dr. Scott Hahn. And so if Dr. Hahn wants to go on his program, Frad sets the Overton window, which is in part informed by Ben Shapiro.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:29

And so that's that's really the tragedy of it. It's someone like Dr. Hahn, who might actually be trending in the right direction. He's thinking about things more deeply, he's diving into tradition. He's actually going to be uh thwarted in many ways by someone like Frad because he's at the Daily Wire and he doesn't allow them overton window to shift.

Incentives Networks And Media Silence

SPEAKER_08 1:32:51

Hahn disappoints me more than all of them because I learned so much of this stuff from him. Like I know he knows. It's not, you know what I mean? Like he he I like all of the all of the parables are set up to show how the Jews are going to reject him and the and the and the covenant is going to go out to the Gentiles. Like, I learned all of that from him. I learned the whole Romans 9 through 11 thing, I learned from him. So I know he knows better. So in some ways, it's like heartbreaking to me that because it it could it, I understand him not wanting to speak out against the hierarchy because of um like Catholic, uh, just just Catholic sensibilities, you don't speak out against the Pope, but speaking out against the synagogue, I feel like is a duty of every Catholic who uh understands this topic.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:44

Yeah, yeah. I well, I think a lot of times too, it's like you got to follow the money. I mean, like with what happened last year when we exposed of the Philos project, the Philos Catholic group. I mean, it was it was Jew, it was like James Bond villain-esque Jew, Paul Singer, that was that was funding this this company. Of course, of course, uh they're gonna be pro-Israel, pro-Jew, right? And you look at like EWTN and Catholic answers. I mean, I've looked I've looked into some of their connections. I mean, they're a little bit tenuous, so I I didn't make like some of the posts like I did that was as obvious as the five feelers project, but there's still Jewish connections as far as their funding goes. And it's like, okay, they're not going to like with the same thing with Shapiro, they're not going to bite the hand that feeds them. They're there's they're serving two masters, right? And it's like our Lord says, if you serve two masters, you're gonna hate love one and hate the other, and you're gonna love mammon, and you're gonna hate and you're gonna hate the the truth of the Catholic Church. And that's that's really the bottom line with these people. It's like they, unless everything is fully Catholic from the top down, there's going to be like this this, you know, this dissonance, and then they're going to side with where the money's coming from. Dude, I've even seen it in the trad world. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:35:02

Yeah, I've seen it in the trad world, which is kind of crazy to me. Like, it is totally fine to go off on Pope Leo and and that stuff, but you are not allowed to go near the Jewish question, like not in any real sense. Like, you'll see like Catholics for Catholics speaking out against Zionism and stuff, but like they won't go near like the substance of it, none of them will. And like uh, when I went down to uh like they they brought me to go meet a bunch of like donors and they hated me, man. The donors, oh, they hated me, and I was like, I was like, that's fine. I'm like, I like in my mind, I'm like, you guys, fine, I get it, you guys aren't on board, but their audiences are old, man, and that whole thing is just going to die off. Like, we are one of the only traditional Catholic shows that's speaking to younger guys, yes, and that's where you know, I don't want to tell tales out of school, but this is a public comment that Dr.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:05

Kwazneski made. He said at Pelican Plus, he assures people there will be absolutely no anti-Semitism. So it's like yeah, he has that uh privately too. Yeah, but but but going to that point, this is another thing you guys may have seen. And I wrote an article on this at integrity. Monsi Alvarado, she was previously the head of EWTN.

SPEAKER_08 1:36:29

Yeah, she was just made the Vatican spokeswoman, and like we all saw that video that I posted of her, and she's like, dude, I am so mad that we did our show on her before you did. I know I'm like, dude, we did our show on it, and then your article came out the next day, and I'm like, how did we wait? Oh my gosh, man, this guy had so much dirt on her that I didn't know about. It would have been so good to have that.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:57

No, you guys, you guys did a good job, and I actually have a question for you because to all your viewers, they've been doing a really good job with these counter-revolutionary, anti-liberal papal encyclicals.

Anti Liberal Encyclicals And Vatican II Build Up

SPEAKER_03 1:37:10

So I've and I've loved Rob's like historical frame at the start of every one. Thank you. I I have a question for you guys. What has been like the most eye-opening one for you?

SPEAKER_08 1:37:20

If you guys want to each go um right off the bat, like realizing how submersed I am in the Americanist worldview and and learning that everything, like every like I kind of started to know this stuff, like with because I I really got to give it to Lefebvre bringing up the religious liberty issue. Yeah, um, but if it wasn't for him, I would have never looked back to even to to think on this series really deeply, but just understanding how problematic religious liberty is and freedom of speech, and basically all the principles America was founded on are the very things the popes were telling us this is going to lead to the ruin of your world. Yeah. And and not just that, and then the church now is like, these are the good things, and it's like every freaking pope was telling you, don't do this, don't do this, and then now it's like this is what you should do.

SPEAKER_07 1:38:19

Yeah, yeah. The church in the last 80 years took everything the church said not to do, and we're like, Well, let's just give it all a try. I'll it's it's shocking stuff, man. I I think for me, like the the overall like history I I have known for a long time, you know, and honestly, like the 19th century in Europe was one of my favorite periods of history to study, but I had never taken that history and like mapped it out to the encyclicals that were written. Like, obviously, I knew like most that uh like uh Pius IX and Leo the Thirteenth wrote encyclicals of this nature, but one, I wasn't aware like how specific and and almost prophetic they were, but then two, I I hadn't you know looked to see when those encyclicals were written and what was actually happening in history, like you know, like the the actual events that these encyclicals were written directly, you know, in response to directly, I think was really cool for me to see.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:19

No, it's great. I I hope you guys keep that up. And and what's the next one that you guys are covering?

SPEAKER_08 1:39:26

But no, dude, also Americ uh American Reform, like the Cardinal Manning book, because I you sent it to me, like you sent me the PDF version of it and stuff, dude. I was enthralled by that book.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:36

Like I got no, it's it's great, like that helped clarify my thinking a lot. And there's another one I just got my hands on and I've been reading through it. I'll send it to you after this.

SPEAKER_08 1:39:48

Yeah, if you have like books like that where I could sit and get them done in like three, four hours, especially. Like I got through Cardinal Manning's book in three, four hours, and it was just like I felt like light bulbs were just going off every sentence I read.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:01

I just had that happen with me, and this one's only like 40 pages long, and it was written at the very end of the 19th century. And again, it's on the book of apocalypse, which I think is like a mutual interest of ours.

SPEAKER_08 1:40:13

What's what another thing that's interesting is I was because I watched Stephen Cox's show with um uh Sister Lucy Truth. Yes, that guy, and um he was talking about those pre-conciliar popes that were going through their encyclicals, and he's like, Look, they were saying amazing things, but they were kind of not doing the things they were saying, like they were allowing these, like it's not it's not like Vatican II came in a vacuum, like it's not that it really didn't. It's like these guys were saying amazing things, but then allowing these subversives to gain power within the church. It so in one hand, they're you're like, Oh my gosh, these popes are amazing, and on the other, you're like, Yeah, but look at what they're doing behind the scenes, they're allowing this stuff to go on.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:56

I think it's kind of like uh the analogy I would think of it is like they were like on the beach and they were seeing a tsunami coming, and they were like, Hey everybody, a tsunami a tsunami's coming, but like there's really it's the tsunami's coming. I mean, like you're trying to fuck it high ground, but that tsunami's coming, man.

SPEAKER_08 1:41:16

There's no there's no way to build a wall to stop it. Like, we're gonna we're gonna tell you guys about what's coming, but like they and in some it's not all Vatican II.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:26

Like, I mean, at the end of the day, it is Vatican II, but that's what you actually start to appreciate when you study things before because you're right to make that distinction. So, in the doctrinal order, they're perfect, and the encyclicals are teaching true things, but when you look at the practical order and the decisions that were made, and the weakness and the promotion of these types, like Pope Pius XII made Cardinal Bea a confessor of his, and he's this radical ecumenist, and this is all before the council, and Pope Pius XI, too. He's basically, you know, don't take this the wrong way, but he's putting the knife in the back of all the counter-revolutionary movements, so like that he was exactly right about that, and you see actually the crisis is building, it's building, it's reaching a fever pitch, and then it's coming out at Vatican II. That's a coming out party. But you guys have have found out that like it began a century late earlier.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:20

But you know, obviously they were they were definitely bad actors of Vatican II, but I think one thing I've come to appreciate is that for the most part, the vast majority of those men, like like you've said that they they the church had been fighting this stuff for 150 years, nothing had really worked, in you know, they had just gone through two world wars, and I think so many of them were just like, Well, let's try something like done everything else.

SPEAKER_08 1:42:47

Yeah, they tried almost make it making like some kind of peace with some of these things, right? Like they tried to like like like, all right, well, we don't have Catholic monarchies anymore, so let's you know, let's give warnings about this stuff, but like they do have to make treaties with these governments to ensure that their priests aren't being killed and things like that, and it it's like uh there's just yeah, man, it it's this it's this whole onslaught of stuff coming at them, and they just they are impotent to stop it.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:19

Well, you gotta follow the money too. Pope uh Gregory the 16th was the first Pope that uh started dealing with the Rothschilds because like the the they needed the papal states were uh facing financial collapse. So, what do they do? They turn to the Rothschilds, turn to the Jews, and they've been dealing with the five Vatican Bank has been dealing with the Rothschilds since then. Yeah, so follow the money. Why can't they criticize the Jews? Oh, there you go. Like, I mean, if you look at my website, like, and I know American Reform's seen it probably multiple times, but you see all these teachings against the Jews, and then you get to the 19th century and everything, and then everything just starts like there's some there people talking about it, but the popes, even even you know, the Pope Leo the 13th, and like they just don't really talk about it so much anymore, and it just kind of starts going away.

SPEAKER_08 1:44:07

That was the interesting thing about even speaking with um with uh um what's his oh my gosh, why am I blanking on him? Um Dr.

SPEAKER_07 1:44:17

D shape.

SPEAKER_08 1:44:18

No, Father uh Modsley. Yes, Father Modsley. Oh my gosh, you blanked on Father Modsley. I was literally just blocking him on Alex Poe's show yesterday. Oh, Father Maudsley's great. Oh, he's amazing, but what okay, so like you're asking what I've no all right. So there's a couple of things. Like some trads really have this idea that if we just fixed the liturgy and had a good pope, everything would be fixed. We had a good liturgy and a good pope 150 years ago and didn't do it, right? Like, and then when when Maudsley started talking about Pius XII get making these concessions to little things to the synagogue, like no longer kneeling or kneeling at the time when you pray for the Jews, and he's like, No, we didn't used to do that, and it's like this little concession that you don't think much of, it's like this subliminal thing that you're just going about, but it really is the synagogue working its way into the church from back in the freaking 1700s at the time of the Enlightenment. Because what happens at the Reformation is you lose the church's authority in the state, and there's all these revolutions going on, and the Jews just take advantage of it. I mean, they just they're a very like they're they're wise as serpents, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:31

They they weaponized the Holocaust mythology because it was Jules Isaac who approached Pope Pius XII, and he was the one who said, Are you able to make these certain kinds of changes? And unfortunately, you know, that happened. But the other thing, a lot of even many trads don't get this. A revolution happened in the very first year of the council in 1962. So Pope John XXIII he calls the council and he taps Cardinal Ottaviani, who's this stalwart character, he's the head of the holy office, to draft all of the schema for the council. And they thought it was going to be real quick a couple months, they vote on all the schema drafted by Cardinal Ottaviani and all of the Roman theologians, Ruffini, all these kinds of types. What happened is that every single one of those documents was thrown out in 1962 by all these radical Ryan theologians that came in. So they started from scratch, say for Sacrosanctum Concilium. That was the only schema that survived. Every other schema, and you can find these online. Like if you guys want to just have your mind blown, you can look up the original schema on church-state relations, and this is what dignitatis eventually became. And you can read it. It is a standard pre-conciliar treatment of church-state relations. Like it sounds like it's not authoritative, obviously, but it sounds as if the church was teaching this again. That was scrapped, and then they went with dignitatus humane.

SPEAKER_08 1:46:59

Like crazy. I would hope Trads at least know that lore. Like, like that's that's stuff I learned when I was like coming in. Like, even Taylor Marshall used to talk about that stuff, like like even when the TNT show was going on back in 2017. That's when I kind of went through all that stuff. But even still, I hadn't like dug in and read the stuff, right? I was just listening to podcasts on it, and then eventually I got to a point where I was like, I want to actually read Noshratate and see what it says. And I was like, Holy crap, this is a nightmare, you know? And it's uh it's like, yeah, I think that trads have this idea that like everything was perfect before the council, and it really wasn't. There's the it's it it they have a hard time, especially like uh guys like Novus Ordo Watch and and those guys, like they don't like to discuss the JQ really. Like they almost think it's like a um, it's like you're getting us distracted from the real issue here. And it's like, no, these issues are so interconnected, like you cannot separate the synagogue's infiltration from the entire trajectory from the Protestant Reformation to today. That is this whole thing is the project of the synagogue, and I see it as that. So I don't so much see it as like everything's great in the Catholic world, and then the council comes and it changes everything. I see this as the Protestant Reformation is the origin, and we're watching it, and it just like you said, it was the coming out party at the council, and the council should have tackled things like communism and the sexual revolution and all the craziness that was happening in the culture, and instead they were like, Let's deal with World War II and let's just make peace with everybody because everybody thinks we're the reason that Hitler

Trad Online Debates And Missing Topics

SPEAKER_08 1:48:40

killed the Jews.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:41

Yeah, I'm gonna say something pretty pr provocative here. Um, so getting ready to clip. Yes, yes. Um, speaking of dialectics and um satanic plots, yeah, modernism is comes from Satan, obviously. I also think this not every not every trad, but the online trad movement, I do think it's part of a satanic dialectic. I do think it's part of a problem. And like I say this because I've I mean there's a lot like you were saying earlier, there's a lot of these trad ink. Me and Dr. Deep State uh call it trad ink. There's a lot of these people that they will talk about all this stuff, but they won't talk about the Jewish question. It's all liturgy, liturgy, liturgy, uh papal politics, uh Vatican politics, but they won't talk about the Jewish question. And so I'm not saying like I love the don't get me wrong, I love the Latin Mass and all that stuff, but I think the online trad movement is a controlled operation, or even if it's not like di controlled, at least these people are aware that they're controlled up as diabolic diabolically controlled up because these people like you know, even when I went on uh what was his name? Um Tim Flanders. Like he's still he's still trying to push like he's Gideon, like okay, we're friends with Gideon and everything too. But like well, Tim Flanders, you know he was a messianic Jew for Yeah, he was a Messianic Jew. Yeah, he was a Messianic Jew.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:14

That's what people don't want to talk about. So he's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:19

Yeah, and Vulture. Holy shit, that makes so much sense. No. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and a lot of these people like that are considered trads, you know, like the what is the guy the he's uh ink British guy that runs the the the trad uh uh no no mark who is it mark lambert, yeah. Some who not not Mark Lambert, it was he was uh he's he's a theologian or whatever, but anyways, like these guys like they they write everything they write is phylosemitic and for pro-Israel, pro-Zionist, or it's like you're talking about the death penalty guy.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:56

Uh oh no, you're talking about I know you're you're talking about Dr. Shaw. Dr. Shaw jumped off society, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. Did you guys did you guys remember this? Dr. Shaw was and actually Taylor Marshall corrected him, thankfully. Like, Dr. Shaw was complaining that the Talmud was burned by King St. Louis the Ninth. And Dr. Marshall is like, this is a Catholic saint. Like, what are you doing counter signaling him? And Dr. Shaw's like, No, this is anti-Semitic.

SPEAKER_08 1:51:27

It's like, what did I got? I have a Dr. Shaw story that'll that is hilarious. He uh, so Catherine from Catholic Unscripted interviewed Father Maudsley, yes, and they then like they caught so much crap for having him on. Like Gavin Ashenden ends up leaving the show because he is so like he is still not the bank account. Yeah, he is a Phylos maniac, Ashington. Ashon, which is which sucks because I kind of like the guy at first, and then all of a sudden this stuff comes out, right? And so Catherine interviews Father Maudsley, and like they they caught so much grief for it that they're like, all right, let's try to balance it out a little, and we'll have Dr. Shaw on, and like, you know, yeah, we'll we'll try to get something because look, you think it's bad here. The thing with with Catholic unscripted is they have a lot of connections to like the Catholic media world, they have a lot of connections to the English bishops, like they're even though their show is on par with us viewer-wise, they have like a more higher prominence and like um like visibility than us. Yeah, they caught so much pressure for having him on, so they get Shaw on, and as this show opens, the opening minute, he lambasts them and demands they take that episode down. And Catherine was just like, um, all right, that was awkward. I'm not taking the episode down, though. You know, it was just such an awkward exchange. If you go back and you watch the beginning minute of that episode when they interviewed him, it was just so awkward. That guy sucks.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:10

He sucks.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:12

I think that's I mean, these people are fake trads, though. That's the point. They're they they call themselves trad, but like you I don't care if you love the Novus Ordo, if you deny that the Jews killed Christ, that there's enmity between uh Christians and the Jews, that like supersessionism is the teaching of the church. You're you're either if not a material heretic, you're approximate to a material heretic, and you're not a trad. So quit calling yourself a trad.

SPEAKER_08 1:53:37

Yeah, like I you can't separate this issue from the liturgy, uh, in my opinion. Like these two issues are one and the same. And it's like, look, we may we may even disagree, like, like you're you're probably less trad than me. America reforms more trad than me, but the fact is, like, we are all recognizing this is the root issue, and you may come to like a different outcome and your conclusion on it and stuff like that. But as long as you recognize like the root of the issue, there's ways for us to talk about it and say, Okay, well, like, all right, you came to a different conclusion than I did here and that. Like, you um, uh Justin, you watched my episode where I was like lambasting Nick Cavazzo's, you know, and I was like, that episode was me just kind of telling the younger guys, like, dude, you guys gotta stop pitching, man. Like, you guys have to stop, you have to stop complaining about stuff like I know they're taking your altar rails out, go kneel on the floor, like just man up a little bit.

Living Through The Church’s Crisis

SPEAKER_08 1:54:30

And and like the the saints were having mass and catacombs, they were gonna get burned and become Roman candles at one time, and we're complaining because some bishop doesn't like the Latin mass. It's like, I don't know what what you guys thought you signed up for when you became Catholic. This is what it means.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:47

Yeah, I mean, they don't know uh people don't understand this. Uh and me and Doug on on his Dr. Deep State locals have been talking about this a lot, but to be a Catholic is to suffer with the church. I mean, that's that's that that's what Christ did on the cross. He suffered, he showed us how to be Catholic, you have to suffer with the church. There's a passion in the church right now, whether or not you think it's the end of the world, you know, you don't have to be like Rob. You can say, Okay, maybe we come out of the passion and we're you know another thousand years, but there is a passion in the church right now, whatever you want to do. Oh, Rob will even say that, right?

SPEAKER_07 1:55:23

I think they're heading into the minor chastisement.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, maybe it's a minor chastisement, maybe it's it, you don't, we don't know, but it at least there's a passion right now, and you have to you have to be able to understand that, right? And if you don't, then you're just yeah, I I I I I hate it in my chats. I get these people from multiple ends. I've get I get one extreme where somebody's like they're like me, they're in the the visible church, right? You know, um, and then you know, they will go off and they will go on attack mode with on anybody that's SSPX or SSPV or SETA or whatever, and then I get these like these diamond bros type set of iconists that do the same thing, and they're just attacking each other all the time. And I'm like, look, everybody, like you know, like like you said, I believe I've come to the correct conclusion, but can't we just all admit that there's a passion in the church right now and things are confusing, and at least try to have some empathy and compassion and charity and humility? Isn't that what the church is always taught?

SPEAKER_08 1:56:26

You know, and like it's I'll I'll say this though, like American reform is like one of the few people who like we know we clearly come to a different conclusion on this, but it's like he he's like, All right, I just came to a different conclusion. We could talk about the things we agree on, but American reform, you also have like the most reasonable set a position.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:45

Well, thank you. And um, I don't I don't call him, I'm just a Catholic, so and I see you guys as Catholics too, and we have we have a very different view on the crisis in the church and whether or not the sea is is vacant or not. But but thank you for that.

SPEAKER_08 1:57:00

Even even your even your position on the sea is vacant is not this correct, like it's not strict, it's not strict set of a contism.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:08

It's correct, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:57:09

That's why I say like your your the way you've explained it to me, I'm like, oh all right, that at least at least I could because it it doesn't like get rid of the perpetual successors and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:20

So correct. And so that's that's one of the reasons, you know, personally, I I don't think the set of a contest position is tenable because you run into problems with preserving apostolicity, among other things, and then the other thing too is that they have recourse to the heretical pope question, and I don't I don't think that's been settled by the authority of the church, and so they they can't actually get the requisite certitude they need to make their conclusion. But you know, obviously I'm very sympathetic to them and I see things very similarly. In fact, I would argue that like in the practical order, pretty much all of us, and and I've seen this in your shows too. In the practical order, we are pretty much doing the same thing where oh yeah, we're adhering to Catholicism as it was taught and received up until the second Vatican Council, and then after Vatican II, when something's in continuity with tradition, we'll accept it, and if it's not, we'll reject it. So I think like all four of us, even though we have different views, we're we're basically all doing the same thing. It's just whose theoretical justification for their actions is correct.

SPEAKER_08 1:58:25

Yeah, and that that's that's just it, these are all theories, like that's like all of us have theories because there's no definitive way to answer these things right now, right? So my my my position isn't like I I'm very sympathetic to sedes. My my issue comes in when they when they say like orders are no longer valid, and I'm like, well, wait a minute, the church actually has the authority to change the way the sacraments are done, like the church does have the right to do I we're not fans of what the church did within certain aspects, correct?

SPEAKER_03 1:58:59

So so actually let me let me just tease that out real quick. If you let's just say for the sake of argument that Paul the Sixth did not have pontifical authority, so that's that's my argument. If he didn't have pontifical authority when he goes to establish new rights for ordination and consecration, if he doesn't have the authority of Christ, then there's no guarantee that those rights are certain certainly valid. So if you accept that original original premise, which I know you guys reject, but like it follows logically from that that the new rights would be at minimum doubtful if he doesn't have the authority of Christ. So that would be the one of the arguments, but Rob is right too, that like and Anthony, you're actually you're right too. Like the Pope can change the right, provided it's only accidental. And and Rob is right too, that there can't be a change in the essential form. Right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:59:50

Yeah, it's a tough look, these are all tough questions, and I don't think there's any way to actually answer them. So I think all of us, like you said, are just doing our best to live out our Catholic faith to the best of our ability at the moment, and it's just it's a tough time, man. It's uh yeah, I think I think I think I think people need to have a little bit of um like grace towards others who come to a different conclusion and just kind of be like, all right, like we don't see eye to eye on that, but we all do believe the Catholic faith, and we're all just you know trying to make sense of this insanity as it comes.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:24

Amen to that. That's exactly how I see it too, man.

SPEAKER_08 2:00:28

Um is there anything you guys want to touch on before uh before we get out of here? Because I I know you both have so much like knowledge on subjects, and if the like I'm not always I'm not always good at like getting to the to something of substance. Is there like anything that I I missed in the in the uh conversation?

SPEAKER_04 2:00:50

Trying to think. I mean, the only thing we didn't really we didn't really resolve was the fact that you know it is the it does seem to be the case that like again with God's permissive will, this stuff is happening, and like these these some some of these people are saying, well, it's happening, so these are these are some uh these are um God's providence. This is leading to the end gathering of the Jews, and like this is also a sign that the church is basically uh the power in the church is is dying, which is but uh yeah, I mean that's it's just it's it's true, it's it's a true thing to say, but it's at the same time, it's like well, we we don't celebrate that. We we gotta push back.

SPEAKER_08 2:01:36

I see it, I really do see it as the hierarchy in documents like no shoot and all these Assisi meetings they're doing in Rome. Like, I see that as the church basically telling us, hey, we're no longer uh converting the pagans, like we're welcoming them into Rome. Like the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, guys. I don't have to tell you the Jews are back in Israel, we're no longer preaching the gospel to the to the pagans.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:00

The catacomb is gone.

SPEAKER_08 2:02:02

That's it. Like, that's how I see it.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:03

I mean, like Catacon has left the building, you're you're on your own, the Antichrist is coming.

SPEAKER_08 2:02:09

And it comes down to like I do see the modern hierarchy as the Sanhedrin. Like, that's that's I see these men as the Sanhedrin, like like they're these men agreed. They honor me with their lips, but my my my I am far from their hearts, you know, like these men are the modern Sanhedrin. So it's I don't know. That's just I'm just like trying to get through my life and and be Catholic the best I can while they're over here destroying people's souls.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:42

I I've got two final things, and I want to be respectful of your time. The first thing, I don't know if you guys saw this, but I had a back and forth with Dr. Jones over Nostratate, and what I was doing was interpreting Nostratate in light of John Paul II and some of his private speeches. And I think I think I got the better of him. I don't know if you guys okay. Then the other Justin, I don't know if you saw that.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:09

I did not, no.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:11

Okay, the other thing, too, and this is more for Anthony and Rob, because I wrote a very long essay on this when when Trent Horn covered Carrie Prejean Bowler, you know, I'm not a huge fan of her, but he covered her, and what I did is I put together, I think in a very

What We’d Cover Next And Wrap

SPEAKER_03 2:03:30

scholarly way, all of the opposition of the popes up until the second Vatican Council against political Zionism. Like there's a lot of a lot of things that people don't realize that like Pius XI decreed in a magisterial capacity, or Pius XII in one of his representatives. One of his representatives made the statement. Like, I'll send you guys this essay after that, but I think there's like that's I would I would bring this forward towards my position is that like something fundamentally did change with Nostre Tate, and especially in light of what has happened since.

SPEAKER_08 2:04:05

Oh no, I would I would agree with that for sure. Like something has fundamentally changed. I I think it and I think it was Jewish subversion into the hierarchy. Like, I feel like that is why I I I can't see it as anything but apocalyptic because I see this as a collusion between our own hierarchy and the synagogue, and that's why I see them as the Sanhedrin. Like, I I don't know, that's just that's the way I see it all. The thing with Carrie Pajan Bowler wasn't even like the Zionism stuff. It's that I don't want a woman out, like I just like this woman is annoying, and you're right, the religious freedom.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:46

Like, think about how she's framing it, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:04:48

But she's an annoying woman, like I don't know.

SPEAKER_08 2:04:51

I guess like every other annoying woman, and she's just her voice annoyed me everything. So I was just like, I don't know, something was just so off-putting about her. And I I was watching all the trads, like, get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich. Yeah, but like I mean, not that mean, but like, yeah, like go like go home. Where's your husband? Why are you talking? Like, why are you even on this religious freedom path? What are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 2:05:18

Anthony, that's why I like you. You have that you have that old world sensibility.

SPEAKER_08 2:05:22

Yeah, it's just dude, it was crazy to me to watch like all these other Catholics in the trads were like, You gotta support Carrie Persian. I'm like, I can't in principle, like, not because I disagree with her, like, I can't I agree with the thing she's saying, but like, come on, guys, like, what are we doing here?

SPEAKER_07 2:05:38

I didn't even really agree with the thing she was saying.

SPEAKER_08 2:05:41

Some of some of the stuff she said was great, but then some of the stuff was just like like the when she started going into the religious freedom stuff, and then talking about how there's other Muslims on this channel in this panel that we are for. I'm like, Yeah, just go home.

SPEAKER_07 2:05:54

The reason she believes what she believes is what I have a problem with, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_08 2:05:59

Yeah, like but you um reform. Maybe we will do a show on race with you, though.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:06

Okay. I have a sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_08 2:06:10

No, I was gonna say that's a that's a that's a tricky topic, and I like I want to understand that one properly because like the church is universal, but like, but but like we're also watching like the destruction of our country because of allowing to come into stuff. Like, I I want to know what the what the historical teaching from the church was on that because no matter how much you think you know, there's like you have you're always posting things that popes have said in the past, and I'm like, holy cow, man, the popes were freaking pretty awesome, especially the slavery issue, things like that.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:44

Well, that's where you know I don't want to toot my own horn, but I mean, I have a study that's coming out next month, and I I would be more than happy to come on and talk about it and explain how, of course, there's university universality within Catholicism, but that doesn't come at the expense of the particularity, and so that's why the the supernatural unity of all of mankind that we have in the Catholic Church, we still have the individual nations, we still have the individual races, and we have the solidarity. And I have the quotes, I mean, like Pope Pius XI talked about a true, proper, healthy racism. That's an exact quote from him, and he he he talked about how certain races have more gifts than others, and and the races that have more, more will be expected of them, of course. And so that's where I'd be more than happy to come on and we can we can talk about that and actually draw out some of these distinctions because there are real excesses to be avoided. And this is actually the one point you were asking earlier about what we didn't mention about the Jewish question. Like, if if men like us aren't in the conversation, you do have some very fringe kook people that are that are genuinely hateful because they're going to be the only ones calling out the problem, and the solution that they have is not Christian, and so they they might diagnose the problem, same thing with the racial question, too. Like we need men like this in the room talking about these things in a reasonable way. We don't care about the liberal taboos, we don't care about the Jewish taboos, but we're also not going to go into these extreme views that are outside the bounds of morality, and so if they shut us out, like they have no idea what's coming up, or or if we shut ourselves out, which I see as more likely that if we as Catholics forbid ourselves from talking about Judaism for and forbid ourselves from talking about race and nations, then you will leave it to the secular world to um to deal with the backlash that's coming, and that's gonna end very badly.

SPEAKER_04 2:08:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 2:08:44

Part of part of what I didn't like with the Carrie Prajon stuff was the way some people were framing, and then like when you get guys going off the rails and just going the Zio, this, the Zion. And I'm like, these are the people, like, especially someone like Candace Owens and stuff. It's like these people are useful tools of the Jews to just write everyone off with valid criticism as crazy conspiracy theorists, nut cases, and it's like that's why we've always tried to handle this conversation in theological terms and not even get into the conspiracy stuff, but it it's it's important that people are doing that because you don't want to just get written off like your Jake freaking shields, you know.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:23

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's I mean that's the problem with like Nazism and and and like that's that's why the holo Holocaust is such a it's it's it was so perni it's so pernicious just because of the fact that for 80 years we we've been it's been weaponized for us to not be able to talk about this stuff, right? Yeah, I mean that's that is the the spiritual damage that it's done and that Nazism has done, right? I mean, like, yeah, was Hitler right about stuff? Yeah, he was right about stuff. He was right about the communists and about the capitalists and about the the Jewish problem, but his the solutions were like American Reform said were not Christian Christian solutions, and then that just that set the whole conversation back on race and the Jewish question 80 years. So now we're we're picking up the pieces, and it's it just when these people come to my communities, these not these these Nazi tards, man. I just just click, delete them.

SPEAKER_08 2:10:20

Well, even to what Rob was say, like I see violence on the horizon between race races, like there's going to be racial conflict coming soon. And if people like adults, like reform said, if we don't have adults in the room speaking about this stuff in a way that shows charity and love, but still shows like there's a there's very good reasons why you can't have just the mixing of the races and we can't be the melting pot. Like you you do need these distinctions and and it's got to be handled properly. Yep. No, that's exactly right. Um, all right. So maybe that'll yeah, that'll be our next uh the next time we get you on. That's uh we didn't we never covered the Baron stuff getting into the JP2 Institute or anything. That would have been fun to talk about, but it was just like the principal laid out. The brand the principle Barron laid out. It's like, oh, why don't you apply that to everything else too?

SPEAKER_03 2:11:08

You know, did you see that essay I just published on that question?

SPEAKER_08 2:11:13

No, yeah, I gotta I gotta start reading your sub stack, man. Is it a substack or on on uh and on integrity?

SPEAKER_03 2:11:19

This is on integrity. I'll I'll send it to you after.

SPEAKER_08 2:11:22

Yeah, send it to me. That's the other thing. We forgot to promote integrity when you were on the YouTube side. So yeah, if you guys, if you guys aren't reading uh reform stuff, he's he's he publishes over at uh integrity with Stephen Cox. Um all right, yeah, all right. It's getting late. We'll wrap this one up. This was fun, guys. It was like an easy show to do. I was very happy to get you guys good.

SPEAKER_04 2:11:43

Yeah, thank you guys.

SPEAKER_08 2:11:44

So thank you guys very much. We'll do a part two soon. Uh Justin, would you want to join us for the race conversation?

SPEAKER_04 2:11:50

Um probably not your wheelhouse, right? Well, I I mean, like you can do it with American reform. Like, I was a part, like I was it dabbled in like the uh what it was it, the alt right stuff. And that I might just I might just be get too obnoxious. I've I've got some personal problems just because I created like a group, uh like a men's group in real life to talk about the you know, we would get together once a month, talk about the Jewish question and race stuff, and it basically got co-opted and turned into like a Nazi group. Oh my gosh. Yeah, like they like like and like I dared to just say, hey, you know, somebody in the group asked, like, okay, what did what are your thoughts about Nazism, Hitler? I'm like, well, here's where Nazis and Hitler were right, and here were they they were wrong, and I was just being objective, like we're talking about here. And I basically got kicked out of my own group because I wasn't Nazi enough for them. So I might get I might get too pissed off and just start, you know, slamming Nazis. People are spurs, man.

SPEAKER_08 2:12:47

All right, so all right, so reform, we'll do that with you. But Justin, if you come up with like if you have like something specific you want to do with us, man, just shoot, just shoot me a DM or something, just let me know.

SPEAKER_03 2:12:56

Justin, you have to you have to show your face. Come on.

SPEAKER_08 2:13:01

Yeah, we'll get that camera, we'll get that camera fix for the next time.

SPEAKER_04 2:13:05

Camera fixed next time.

SPEAKER_08 2:13:07

Um all right, all right, guys. We will see you guys on Thursday. Not sure what we're doing yet, but we'll figure something out.

SPEAKER_04 2:13:13

Okay, talk to you later.

SPEAKER_08 2:13:15

It was nice meeting both of you guys for the first time. Yeah, thanks guys. All right, take us out, Robert.