Rome Has Spoken: The Most Contested Encyclical in the Modern Church | Immortale Dei

You’ve probably heard the Saint Michael Prayer. The part most people miss is that its origin story is bound up with a Pope who believed the Church was facing more than bad politics, and he answered with something sharper than commentary: Immortali Dei, Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical on how a nation should be ordered, what authority is, and why the state cannot pretend God is irrelevant without slowly hollowing itself out.

We walk through Leo’s core framework: two real powers established by God, the spiritual authority of the Church and the temporal authority of the state. That distinction is not a call for theocracy, but it is a direct challenge to the modern “religiously neutral” state. From natural law to public education to marriage, Leo argues that law and culture always point somewhere, and when they stop pointing toward truth, they don’t become neutral, they drift toward chaos. Along the way we dig into the thesis hypothesis approach, the idea that there’s an ideal political order, and there are also prudent concessions Catholics may accept when the ideal is impossible without greater harm.

That sets up the tension a lot of Catholics still feel today: Immortali Dei’s “error has no rights” versus Vatican II’s Dignitatis Humanae and the modern language of religious liberty. We lay out why this debate keeps splitting the Catholic world, and we test it against real life examples, including a clip of JD Vance explaining how he weighs papal criticism against his duties in civil office. If you’ve ever felt like you didn’t have the words to explain what went wrong in the modern West, Leo XIII gives you a vocabulary worth recovering.

Subscribe for the next installment as we move toward Rerum Novarum, and if this helped you, share it with a friend and leave a review so more people can find the series.

Transcript

The Saint Michael Prayer Origin

SPEAKER_03 0:31

If you have ever prayed the Saint Michael prayer, you have prayed words written by the Pope in this episode. And according to the tradition of the Church, he wrote them because of something he heard. On October the thirteenth, eighteen eighty-four, after offering Mass in the Vatican, Pope Leo XIII suddenly went pale. Witnesses say he collapsed at the foot of the altar, and he looked, for a moment, almost lifeless. When he recovered, he told them what he had heard a conversation between God and Satan, where Satan boasted that, given enough time and enough power, he could destroy the church. Then he heard our Lord grant the request and give Satan a sentry for the forces of hell to do their worst. Now this is of course private revelation and no one is bound to believe it. But here's what is not in dispute. Shortly after this mystical experience, Leo, who was convinced that the crisis around him was not merely political but also demonic, did something more than write a prayer. He sat down and wrote a constitution. Not a constitution for the church, but instead for the state. He called it Immortality Day.

Why Immortali Dei Hits So Hard

SPEAKER_02 2:30

I'm just look, I had a rough couple days, but um reading this encyclical was hard. Yeah. Uh well, first off, it was one of my favorites. Um by far, like one of my favorites. Like I was like, holy cow, because you think to like um Pope Paul the Sixth writing um uh Humani Vitae, and and you'll hear like modern Catholics be like, it was prophetic, it was prophetic. It was not a big thing. You go back and you read humani vita, and it's the weakest, like barely it's just I mean, it gets the point across, right? I guess. But when you read this encyclical, like almost everything uh Pope Leo the 13th wrote was prophetic, first off, like truly prophetic. And it's it's it makes me angry that he was never canonized. Um, if I ever have a blessed like Pius the Ninth. If I ever have a dire situation in my life, I will be praying to Pope Leo the 14th, uh 13th, Pope Leo the 13th for his intercession because like the the holiness just drips through his writing, you know, and and his aching for the church and his aching for the world. And everything he wrote was so prophetic, and it's just every single warning he gives in this encyclical was ignored, not just by the state, but by the church, and it's just it was it's rough, man, because I mean not just ignored, you could say potentially like even turned on its head over. Yeah, and it's like when when you read this one, you're like, man, I would I would die a happy martyr for this pope. You know, like I would I would lay down my life for this pope because he's just he's just he's just amazing, man. I don't know. It's uh I don't know. The hard part of this episode is going to be not to read the entire encyclical because it's just banger after banger paragraph and have the whole last four pages highlighted, I think. It's it's dude, it opens up talking about like Christian civilization or pagan civilization in the early church and how their punishment, you know, like and it's like, but if you if you if you if you believe that and you view that and say, yeah, God was giving the pagans their joke, because the the people had always said like the church was the cause of the fall of the Roman Empire, and he's like, Well, no, it the fall of the Roman Empire was a chastisement by God for their unfit, you know, for their for for their or persecuting the church, persecuting the church and for just being wicked pagans. And when you if you really believe that, then you have to see what's happening now as like we're on we're on course for another chastisement because of what we're doing, you know. But um, yeah, and that that vision that Leo had. It's just it just like just even the even the fact that like where do you know where the lore comes from? Like where where the legend comes from? The actual source for yeah, like is that does anybody ever know the source or is it when like did it was that like a post-consiliar uh trad thing, like where we invented it, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 6:01

Well, I mean, uh, so I yeah, I don't know where the story itself comes from. Um, I mean, he did write the Saint Michael prayers, right? And there's multiple, there's the shorter version for the laity and a couple longer versions for use in actual exorcism. So, like the pr the obviously the prayer exists, and he did write it and he mandated it being Sid Um after church. So, but uh as far as the reason we've been told for why the prayer was written, I I honestly don't know where that actual source directly comes from.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

I I remember when um when uh Taylor wrote Infiltration, he said he couldn't find original sources for it. Right. He couldn't find original sources for that, and he couldn't find original sources for the quote about them uh uh Pope Pius XII saying, uh I you know they I have I I see them tearing down the altars and thing, you know, whatever quote that was. That was the yeah, there's no he couldn't find sources for that one either. But um, yeah, it's just uh that yeah, this is a tough one. Um all right, so tonight on locals, we have so much stuff to do on locals tonight. Like we have to, we have I think we should play Leo's clip of what he said about the SSPX. Um we have, I think during this episode, maybe we play the Vance clip, Vance being asked about Pope Leo because it's kind of pertinent to like relations between church and state. But then we also have um there's so much drama going in the Ortho Bro world right now with like Jay Dyer stepping down and all that stuff. But there was an Orthodox priest I saw that's uh Stephen DeYoung. Yeah, he wrote about Father Stephen DeYoung, Father Josiah, whatever his name, Trenham, whatever his name is, uh Peugeot, and Jay Dyer. And he had some really interesting things to say, especially about Father Father Josiah's fake accent. It's kind of funny, it's kind of funny. Um, but yeah, so we're probably gonna all right. So we're gonna cover ortho controversy, um, Pope Pope Leo addressing the SSPX. Vance. What else? JD Vance, JD Vance, but maybe do here, but no, I have like a whole bunch of other like it's gonna be a packed local show tonight. So we'll try and get through this one in a in an hour if we can. We'll see how that goes because this uh this is I mean, all right, so and also we're doing rarum Navarum next, right, Rob.

SPEAKER_03 8:37

Yeah, yeah, unless you wanted to do Lib uh Libratas, but I I think I think it's time to hit I think it's time to hit Rare Mavarum.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Now, Rob Rob had suggested maybe breaking that into two episodes because this one I feel like should have been two episodes, probably.

SPEAKER_03 8:51

But rare, so this one is a little longer than the ones we've been doing, but not too bad. Rare Mavarum is about 20% longer than this one, but also like you know, to really get into rare Navarum, we're gonna have to talk about communism, socialism, capitalism, labor unions. You know, there's there's maybe not as much history, but there's a lot more context to talk about than what we've been doing. So we might have to do like a his history and context episode and then a whole separate episode on the actual encyclical.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Yeah, it's uh man. Well, either way, we're gonna do Rare Navarum next. So if you guys want to read up, that's where we're gonna go. Um, I have some news. I'm uh going to be bringing in Nick Knacks to my company tomorrow because all of the guys I work with suck and they all need a little bit of a pick-me-up. Uh, I lost my mind this morning on the job and screamed at everybody because they all suck. And tomorrow they're gonna have a little bit of nicotine to put a little pep in their step. So if you also would like to have a little nicotine and pep in your step, go to nicknack.com, use code AB25% for 25% off your first purchase, use code AB10 for 10% off all subsequent purchases. Nicknacks is a nicotine product, nicotine is an addictive substance, but that's going to be the point as I throw these at my men tomorrow if they piss me off.

SPEAKER_03 10:11

Well, so it's a good then that they uh Nick Knack emailed me today and said if we wanted to have them send us more, they would. So they're they're going to have to can can we put uh flavor requests in? Because I'm you just tell them what you want, what you want.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Yeah, tell them I mean I I I'm out of um what was it, tangerine that we loved? Well, no, no, no, no, no. I just like all the citrus ones, man. I do like all the citrus ones, but great. My favorite is my favorite. I'm out of that one, and uh, I would really, I would, I would like to get some more of those. So um Bobby says, uh, oh, yeah, so go to Nick now. And also, I may just beat all my men with my um Black Monk Rosary. So go to blackmonkrosary.com. Black Monk Rosary, first off, um, graduations are coming up. Great graduation presents, right?

SPEAKER_03 10:59

I got to uh pray the rosary on a black monk rosary this weekend at uh at my uncle's bedside a couple hours before he died. So oof. Well, and it was the it was the um luminous mysteries. I assume. Absolutely not, no. Come on, I was gonna say it was on the uh uh Memento Mori Rosary, so it was perfect.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Luminous mysteries for sure. No, all right. Go to uh black book rosaries and uh use code Avoiding Babylon to get 10% off at checkout. Bobby, this is uh actually a pretty cool comment because we're the new Rome waiting to be chastised. We made peace with the Persians and had a gladiator fight at the Emperor's Palace on his birthday. Uh Pope Leo actually talks about us defeating the Mohammedans in this encyclical. It's just such a wildly good encyclical, man. So, all right, Rob, why don't you take us through the historical context and then let's dig into this thing?

Leo XIII And Europe Under Siege

SPEAKER_03 11:56

Okay. So if uh all of you who've been with us through the series so far, you already know a lot about Leo the 13th, and you probably are starting to see kind of what he's doing with his pontificate. But just to remind anyone or catch anyone up, uh, in episode four, we did Attorney Patras. That's when Leo the Thirteenth rearmed the Catholic mind by bringing back Aquinas and rebuilding the church's intellectual foundation. That was kind of his first his first move. And the episode after that, episode five, we did Humanum Genus, where he names the enemy, the enemy, Freemasonry, and he pulls apart their whole philosophy and all the secret societies, and he shows the church how the city of man is being built around them. So that's his second move. And now, in this episode, and which uh in with Immortality Day comes out in 1885, comes his third move, and it's wasn't just enough to rebuild the Catholic mind and to name the enemy. Um, at some point, you have to answer the question that that enemy is forcing upon you, and the question is what's the alternative? Um, if the liberal, secular, religiously neutral state is wrong, and Leo the 13th had spent his entire pontificate arguing that it was, then what's right? You know, what does a nation look like when it's correct? And Immortality Day is Leo's answer. It is the most positive, most constructive document we've done in the entire series so far. You know, if episodes one and through one through three, um, you know, which was what Mirari Voss, uh, uh Quanticura and the syllabus, and then I forget what episode three was. But if those were the church getting knocked down, um, episodes four, five, and six here are the church getting back up. Um, and this is the one where the church, you know, basically says this is how how how it's supposed to be done, how states should be run. Um, but to understand why it had to be written, we have to kind of look back at the pressure Leo was under in 1885. By this point, he'd been a prisoner in the Vatican for 15 years. The Papal States were gone. Um, and across the you know, what was the Catholic world, the government after government were running the same Masonic playbook, basically, you know, with the playbook Humanum Genus just exposed. In France, the Third Republic was secularizing the nation, stripping the Catholic orders out of the schools, secularizing education top to bottom, driving the faith out of public life by law. In Italy, obviously, the state had seized Rome, but it continues to treat the church as best as just a private club. Um, in Germany, Bismarck's uh Kulturkampf had only just started to wind down after years of arresting arresting bishops and seminar closing seminaries. And uh underneath all of it ran, of course, the philosophy we've been talking about liberalism, not in like the American political sense, but as the like the total theory of society.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

And and and and essentially, like the the principles in which America was founded, like yeah, like all the things he's he's addressing are the principles in which America is founded, and the principles in which all of us who went to public school were taught were these amazing things like freedom of religion, freedom of speech, all these like all of these things, he sees that they will become the ruin of society, and he's just and when we're we're gonna talk a little bit about America uh prior to this encyclical.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

So, yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

I also think one of the documents we're Michael, we're gonna do this on locals tonight. We just said that. Sorry, go ahead, Rob.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

Yeah, um, I think one of the documents, one of the non-encyclical documents we should do is his um is his letter against Americanism. Yeah. Um, eventually. But anyways. Um, so liberalism is of course the doctrine that the people, you know, are the only source of authority. Um, all religions are equal before the state. Church and state must be separated, you know, and that God is basically a private hobby with no claim on public life. We've already talked about all this. Um, you know, and to us, as you just said, it it's it's what our world is is built on now. It's what it is just the world, but in a sense, it already was in 1885. In 1885, this was just simply progress, it was settled, it was obvious to them. It was the way they thought civilized modern nations were supposed to work. Um, and Leo looked at all that and called it, you know, what he believed it was, and he believed it was a lie about the nature of authority itself, and he set out to prove it in Immortality Day.

Two Powers Church And State

SPEAKER_03 16:38

Um, and the core teaching of Immortality Day is that there's two powers. Um, of course, Immortality Day is Latin for the Immortal God. It was issued on the Feast of All Saints Day in 1885, November 1st. Um, so this is uh what about a year, a year after his vision that his vision happens on October 13th, 1884, which is 33 years to the day before the miracle of the son of Adam. Oh wow, yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Um, so this is uh about a year after that, and he opens it not with a complaint, um, but with a vision of order. And his starting point is that all authority comes from God, not from the people, not from the consent of the governed, uh, from God alone. Um, and if all authority comes from God, then there's two authorities that God has established on earth, two perfect society uh societies, as Leo calls them. One, of course, is the church, which God established to govern the things of the soul, of eternity, of salvation, and the other is the state, which God established to govern the things of the body uh and of the temporal common good. So two powers, the spiritual and the temporal, both from God, both real, both with genuine authority in their own sphere. And you know, it it wasn't a call for theocracy. Leo's not saying that the Pope should run the government or that priests should be magistrates or anything about that. He explicitly draws the line that the church governs souls and the state governs civil affairs, and that each is supreme in its own domain, basically. Um but Leo says the state is not free to be neutral about God because the state authority comes from God, so that the state then has a duty to God. So a nation, just like a man, owes worship to its creator, and therefore a rightly ordered state must publicly recognize the true religion, protects the rights of the church, and order its laws as far as it prudently can toward the eternal destiny of its citizens. You know, Leo argues that a Christian nation is not a nation that just happens to have Christians in it, it's a nation that publicly acknowledges Christ as King in its laws, in its institutions and public.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

That's that's what that's what Leo's. I don't mean to jump in, but just to just to add some context. No, for sure. The um the in well, it's it's a premonition that Leo's having where he's seeing the got the world governments around him no longer recognizing Christ as king. Right. And he's and he's he's anticipating what that means for for for the world, right? And then you end up with like Pius the 10th ends up writing an encyclical about Christ the king and instituting the 11th, okay, instituting the feast of Christ the king because it gets so much worse by his time. But these are it's just a prophecy that that Leo is seeing about to unfold.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

Yeah, yeah. Um so so this, you know, the this ideal from Leo is is the thesis. Um and you know, but the moment you you say that, you know, what he believes out loud, whether now in 2026 or even back in 1885, every instinct that the modern world has trained into you screams that it's impossible, dangerous, or or even wrong. But Leo anticipated that reaction. And his answer to to that reaction is is potentially the most important and even controversial idea in the entire episode, even potentially more so than than what he lays out about the state. Um so so that you know, like like I said, Leo anticipated that that reaction that people are going to have. Um he was honest enough to face it. You know, he just he's describing the ideal state, ideal Catholic state. Um, but he's writing to a to a church that's scattered across um, you know, nations that are Protestant, pluralist, secular, or you know, openly hostile to the faith. You know, so he's writing to people in nations where the ideal isn't just unrealized, it's currently impossible.

SPEAKER_04 21:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

You know, so so what is the Catholic supposed to do in a country that will never most likely never be a confessional Catholic state? Are they supposed to pretend? Are they supposed to revolt? Are they supposed to just despair? And Leo's answer, and it's not just his answer, it had been worked on um for a couple decades prior to this. Um, by uh what was the funny French name Josh Charles said last episode? Dupin Lu. Oh uh Bishop Dupe. No, it was uh it was Dupin Lu. Dupin Lou. Yeah, it was um he he's one of the he's one of the uh the theologians that that were work was working on this, but um uh the the answer became known as the thesis hypothesis uh framework.

Thesis And Hypothesis Explained

SPEAKER_03 21:46

And it's it's uh it's really one of the kind of the cleanest, uh slickest pieces of of social doctrine the church has produced. And um the the rest of this, um honestly, probably the rest of the whole. Series of encyclicals we're going to do really depends on on people understanding it. Um, and and it's pretty simple. So the the thesis is the ideal, right? So it's what should be the unchanging norm. And in this context, it's the you know, it's a confessional Catholic state that recognizes the true religion, gives the church her rightful place, and who may even limit the public spread of grave religious error for the good of souls. Um the principle underneath all that is the whole the phrase, you know, error has no rights. Yeah, truth has rights, people have rights, but error itself, falsehood, has no positive claim on the public square that the state exists to serve the truth. Um, now, so that's the thesis, in at least in this context. The hypothesis is kind of the concession to reality, it's the prudent application of when the ideal cannot be achieved without causing even greater harm, you know, harm like civil war, um, harsh persecution, you know, complete anarchy and chaos. So, you know, in this sense, the hypothesis in a pluralistic or non-Catholic society is you know, the church tolerating religious liberty, you know, uh accepting a degree of separation between the church and state, not because it's ideal, but because it's the lesser evil at that point. You know, it's basically kind of the medicine for this the sixth situation.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

I was thinking about this in light of the council, uh, the second vatican council.

SPEAKER_03 23:34

Right, and this this will go right to it actually, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Like I was thinking about this in light of the second Vatican Council, and I was thinking, like, what would happen if Leo XIV came out talking like Leo the Thirteenth, right? Like it might cause total and utter chaos, you know. And I and I was thinking, like, when Paul VI lays down his papal tiara, that concession, like, is that what's going on here? Is it basically like this is the only way the church is going to be able to function in the post-World War II world, right? And but the the thing is, all it just kept coming back to was the men that are in the hierarchy today don't view the church the same way Leo XIII does. They don't see the church as the teacher of all humanity, they don't see the the church as the like the the the instructor of nations.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

It's simply the privilege route to them, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Yeah, it's the privileged way, or it's a or they even like like they still teach the Catholic faith, right? Like you you still still get the Catholic faith in that you're getting the sacraments and you're being taught about mortal sin and you're being taught about uh what holiness looks like, things like that. But they're no longer the the modern hierarchy no longer sees the church with the same vision that Leo the Thirteenth or any but any of the pre-Conciliar popes saw the church and her role in society and the world. So it's it's kind of jarring when you're reading some of these things by Leo because you're just like, man, this that's just a different, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:11

Yeah, you're supposed to say elder brother before me, but I think I just said it first. That's all right. Let them talk.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

Well, I just ignore them now.

SPEAKER_03 25:23

I don't even care. So the thesis in in this framework never changes, it's rooted in divine law, it's the permanent ideal. The hypothesis is a practical accommodation to messy you know reality. So toleration uh of other religions is not endorsement. Tolerating error isn't the same as saying error is good, it's saying that under these specific conditions, fighting it would cost more than just bearing it. Um, so what Leo does is he gives Catholics a way to live faithfully in a hostile secular world. What just happened to the commons?

SPEAKER_02 26:07

I put ocean and time out. Uh time out or forever? No, timeout. I gave him a timeout. No, I think you I think you oh, I banned him permanently again. I meant to just put him in timeout.

SPEAKER_03 26:25

Ocean, I ocean, I'll fix it after the video.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

You go too far every episode, Ocean. Eventually you get to me. I don't know. You're right. You got to me. See you later. You'll come back.

SPEAKER_03 26:35

This is an interesting theory. The laying down of the tiara was possibly the beginning of the hundred years that Jesus said he would give Satan.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

It was it was either then or it's 1947. Those are my two theories. Like, I I either think it's at that moment when Paul the Sixth does that or 1947, because 1947, so many things are happening in 1947.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

I mean, I've always I don't know. I guess I've always thought that it probably began right then and there, but the church in 1985 wasn't great, you know. Like, if that's when the hundred years ended, I mean, I are we better now than we were in 1985? No, that's why I thought the 80s were like the worst of the liturgy, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Like, well, okay, so we were talking about this a little bit earlier, too. Um, so like I you think um Leo, the uh Leo the 14th's writings are on par with like JP2, or you think they're even better than JP2's?

SPEAKER_03 27:36

Uh that's I mean, I'm JP2 is a lot of uh um what was it, phenomenology, right? Yeah, and I'm just that's it's it's always just with me, like too wishy-washy feely, you know, feely wheelie sort of.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

So like you you have a major, you have a major drop-off at the council, right? Like a major drop-off where I mean, at least you still do get Humani Vita after the council, which is like uh, you know, it's I mean it's it it it holds the line. Um JP2. I don't know, man. If if you read Veritatis Splendor, like he's at least like giving moral clarity in that, and he's like, you know, he's he's uh reaffirming moral principles in it. Um Benedict, I mean, got like these guys are all modernists, don't get me wrong, they're all modernists, all all of the post-conciliar popes are modernists, but Benedict at least like had a mind for theology, even if it was a little modernist. He at least was like a a theologian, so he knew how to how to write. But there is a severe drop off with Francis to the point where it's like scandalous, yeah. And then and then Leo comes, and Leo's not as scandalous as Francis, but it's the same thing, like it's now the same wishy-washy nonsense language that, like, yeah, all right, he's not he's not making exceptions for gay blessings, but it's still that same Tuco Fernandez.

SPEAKER_03 29:01

I was gonna say I think that's that's the common thread. That's the common thread, at least right now, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Yeah, yeah, maybe, but I I do think there was another significant drop off once the Francis papacy started that I like I I don't see I don't know. Uh whatever. Well, let's let's find out. I mean, I I I'm not saying Leo the 14th's gonna suddenly start writing Leo the Thirst. It's hard it's hard to defend anything after the council after reading some of these encyclicals with you, man. It's like I know, I know. This is it's just so like I as much as like I still don't think the settings are right, but I have a lot of empathy for their position because you're just like, what like man, this is such a drastic change.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

Yeah, it is. Um, where was I? Okay, yeah. So with the the the thesis hypothesis stuff, Leo gives Catholics a way to live faithfully in a really hostile world without ever conceding that the hostile secular world is right, you know. So he's he's he's telling Catholics you can obey the laws of a religiously neutral republic, you can be a good citizen of your nation. You and you can still hold, you know, that that this arrangement is is a wound, it's a concession to the fallen, you know, to a fallen age, and it's not the way God ultimately wants nations to be to to be ordered. And for like 80 years after this, that that whole framework is how Catholics understood the relationship between church and kin church and state. You know, it was the the standard framework. But

Vatican II And Religious Freedom Tension

SPEAKER_03 30:38

then came Vatican II and a document called Dignitatus Humanae. Um and you know, that's that the the question that dignitatus humane raises, you know, has been kind of tearing at the church ever since. Um, so you know, in 1965, the church promulgatus humane, which is the Declaration on Religious Freedom. And it based I didn't pull up the actual document, I'm not gonna read from it, but to summarize, it says, at least in like the common reading of today, that every human person more or less has a right to religious liberty, that no one should be forced to act against his conscience in religious matters, um, and that no one should be prevented from publicly practicing their religion within due limits. And even that the right should be recognized in a constant, you know, in the constitutional law of society.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

Or the Detroit Archbishop going to a mosque and praising Islam. Yeah, to say the least.

SPEAKER_03 31:40

Um now compare that to Leo the 13th. Immortali Dei says that the says that the ideal state may limit the public expression of religious error because error has no rights. Dignitas humane, many say, says the state should constitutionally protect the public expression of religion, including in practice false ones. So it's it's there's no small difference there. And you know, even to this day, to to a lot of faithful, intelligent Catholics, it looks like the church said one thing in 1885 and said the opposite thing in 1965. You know, and how you how you answer the question, did the did the teaching change, you know, as has really split the Catholic world since you know for the last 60 years. You know, you have the the traditionalist critique, you know, from men like uh Archbishop Lefebvre and Cardinal uh Ottaviani, um, you know, who who at least maybe not initially, but eventually came to say that the teachings seemed to change. Um, Leo XIII taught the social kingship of Christ, uh, whereas dignitatis humani seems to contradict it. You know, and and if the since the church cannot reverse her own solemn teaching, it seems like something there has gone gravely wrong. Um, you know, and it that's kind of if not this specific subject, this kind of problem is the the doctrinal engine of the entire traditionalist movement, you know, and if you push it to its extreme, you know, you you do get kind of the set of contism that we covered in the our Vatican I episode.

unknown 33:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:18

On the other hand, you have the the the content uh continuity reading, you know, from like Benedict, um, where he addresses it in his famous 2005 address on the human uh humanitarian continuity, you know, and they argue that the teaching kind of just it didn't reverse, that the principle didn't itself change. Error still has no right, but what changed was just the prudential application of the light of modern of the modern state. They say that uh dignitas humane is talking about immunity from coercion, basically a civil right not to be uh forced, you know, to to practice Catholicism. Which is a different question, they say, from whether error has a positive right to exist. Um, you know, they they in Leo Leo's own categories, some of them argue that the council just universalized the hypothesis that it recognized that in the modern world almost always religious liberty as a civil arrangement is the prudent, potentially even permanent application for the modern world. Um, you know, so it's it's uh it's obviously not a settled question, um, even to this day, and and there's a lot of unresolved tension in the church because of it.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Um but but what we do know is you can't really understand the crisis in the modern church without understanding this encyclical because it's kind of like I I just bought the um the catechism on modernism, and it's it's it's all based on like basically Leo the Thirteenth and you know um the syllabus of errors and all this, like it's it's just a catechism on modernism, so that you have a better way to understand how subtle some of these things are, like some of them are so subtle, and they just kind of infected everybody and everything, and even American Catholics, even Cerivicontists, are spewing modernism from like a modernist American point of view, and you know, it's um whether right or wrong, you know, continuity or or departure, like it it we do have to look at the world as it existed, like at the time of the second Vatican Council.

SPEAKER_03 35:39

And I'm sure we'll get there through this series, but like you know, when Leo's writing this in 1885, Europe, the Catholic Europe is crumbling. Yeah, and by the time of the 1960s, it's gone, you know, yeah, whereas the American Catholic Church is growing steadily, yeah. You know, in a word in a in a country, in a secular country with freedom of religion, you have the Catholic Church growing and thriving, whereas in Catholic Europe, Catholic Europe had collapsed. So I could see where where they're saying, hey, in this day and age, it is prudent to just always have religious liberty, to just, you know, yeah, because at least Catholics weren't being persecuted here.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

So they were they were viewing the revolution through the American lens instead of the French lens, right? That's I mean, we we've heard Benedict even say that. Like the French Revolution was all about persecuting the church and taking away the church's um privileges and trying to uh subdue the church, where the American uh revolution was kind of just like freedom of religion, everybody just do what they want, we won't bother you. The church, the state can't interfere with church matters, you know, the separation of church and state. Where Leo's lamenting the idea of the separation of church and state, but they're seeing the church flourish under these conditions of separation of church and state. I mean, I I I I can um like empathize with their perspective on it at that time, especially while the world is in total chaos in the 1960s. You have you know revolutions on the streets in America, JFK is assassinated. Like it's it's a wild time going on in in in the world. Well, that was years later, but still.

SPEAKER_03 37:23

Um, yeah, and and it's important to realize like Immortality Day sets in motion a lot of things, it kind of starts a chain reaction that runs through the next hundred years. You know, three years after this, uh Leo Paul uh promulgates his encyclical uh libertas, which is kind of a deeper treatment of human liberty, where he defines true fear freedom against like the false liberal version of freedom. And that encyclical with Immortality Day kind of becomes the the backbone of Catholic political philosophy for the next you know 80 to 100 years. Three years after that, in 1891, comes Rerum Navarum, which we'll talk about next time. You know, so that's his encyclical on capital labor, the rights of workers, and that launches modern Catholic social teaching as we know it. Um and Rerum Navarum stands on the foundation that Immortalide lays the you know the conviction that a society owes its order to God, not just um you know, not just on economic markets or or political majorities. And then after that, you know, in 1899, he issues a letter called Testum uh Benevol Benevolentia, which addresses the church in the United States and the the uh heresy of uh Americanism, you know, and the question underneath that is is exactly the the thesis hypothesis question we're talking about. You know, is the American model, the separation of church and state, religious liberty for all, is it merely a tolerable hypothesis? Or, you know, or at some as some American Catholics were starting to teach, it has the actual thesis, you know, the actual ideal, better than what Leo describes in Immortality Day. Um, and in in that letter in 1899, he says more or less that the American arrangement may be a workable accommodation, um, but don't don't mistake that accommodation for the ideal, basically. Um so yeah, every thread, whether it's in libertas, rare novarum, the Americanism controversy, um, the social kingship of Christ that Pius XI uh, you know, um later crowns with the feast of Christ the King in 1920, the collision of Vatican II, every single one of those comes back to to Immortal Immortality Day here.

SPEAKER_02 39:54

Um yeah, so that's basically it.

Reading Immortali Dei Line By Line

SPEAKER_02 40:01

It's interesting, especially when he's talking about the revolutions in the 16th century and stuff. Like he's lamenting the the revolutions that happened in Europe. Like you could see his heart is broken over what happened in Europe.

SPEAKER_03 40:18

So I think we're ready to get into the encyclical itself.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

Yeah, let's do it because this one's a doozy. So, oh man, I gotta go all the way back to the beginning. Um, the first thing I that jumped out at me was um it's right right in the beginning in paragraph two, um, where he says, From the very beginning, Christians were harassed by slanderous accusations of this nature, and on that account were held up to hatred and execration for being, so they were called, enemies of the empire. The Christian religion was moreover commonly charged with being the cause of the calamities that so frequently befell the state. Whereas, in very truth, just punishment was being awarded to guilty nations by an avenging God. Like you'd never hear a Pope talk like just punishments were being avenged uh or being uh uh what did he actually say? Is that uh the uh in very true just punishment was being awarded to guilty nations by an avenging god. And like I was saying earlier, like if you believe that is what is causing the empire to fall, the Roman Empire to fall, what does that imply for us? Because like that's that's that's where I get my apocalypticism from is not it's not a black pill, it's in that I believe the story, like I believe in God, and I believe God punishes us when we are are guilty of idol worship and we betrayed him. So I just I don't see how we uh how we could avoid it.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

I mean, I I think it's I think you could very I think you could make a very good case that World War I and World War II, which in essence is is largely the same conflict, that those wars were a punishment for the for for the world failing to you know to to heed the warnings that in these encyclicals we've read.

SPEAKER_02 42:15

Yeah, I definitely don't disagree, but where where the problem comes in is that it doesn't lead to repentance and a return to God. No, no, it doesn't, which means that a deeper and harsher chastisement is on the horizon. It has to be one so harsh that we wear sackcloth and ash and beg God's mercy and repent for our sins. Um I I I I tried not to highlight too much until paragraph five. So if you have anything in between.

SPEAKER_03 42:44

Yeah, just the end of two I have. Many indeed are they who have tried to work out a plan of civil society based on doctrines other than those approved by the Catholic Church. Nay, in these later days, a novel conception of law has begun here and there to gain increase in influence, the outcome, as it is maintained, of an age arrived at full stature, and the result of progressive liberty. But though endeavors of various kinds have been ventured on, it is clear that no better mode has been devised for the building up and ruling the state than that which is the necessary growth of the teachings of the gospel. We deem it therefore of the highest moment and a strict duty of our apostolic office to contrast with the lessons taught by Christ, the novel theories now advanced touching the state. By this means we cherish hope that the bright shining of the truth may scatter the mist of error and doubt, so that one and all may see clearly the imperious law of life, which they are bound to follow and obey.

SPEAKER_04 43:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

Oh man. Um, in in uh go ahead. Well, before you get to five, I had one more thing marked as as important. Um, as no society can hold together unless someone be overall. Directing all to strive earnestly for the common good, everybody politic must have a ruling authority. This authority, no less than society itself, has its source in nature, and has consequently God for its author. Hence it follows that all public power must proceed from God, for God alone is the true and supreme Lord of the world. Everything without exception must be subject to Him and must serve Him, so that whosoever holds the right to govern holds it from one soul and single source, namely God, the sovereign ruler of all.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

You see, he's starting to see that they're not even following natural law, right? Yeah, like he's they're not even following natural law anymore, and it's just like like these are the seeds for the feast of Christ the King to be instituted down the road. Like it's you just see it's already. I mean, bro, this is before abortion, this is before uh uh even even contraception. This is this is he just sees rampant immorality, and he sees these governments trying to make laws that are contrary to the natural law. And he's like, You get you you all you leaders, like you need to recognize that God is the source and author of all of authority, and you're governing in his name, man. Like, because people like this idea of oh, we're a we're a government formed by the people for the people, you know, for the people and by the people, like he's saying that is wicked, like to have a government formed by the people for the people is wicked because then it just becomes mob rule and consent of the governed, and he's not saying that things like republics are inherently bad.

SPEAKER_03 45:45

Matter of fact, the the very next sentence he says the right to rule is not necessarily, however, bound up with any special mode of government, it may take this or that form, provided only that it be of a nature of the government. Rulers must bear must ever bear in mind that God is the paramount ruler of the world, it must set him before themselves as their exam. So he's saying, if you want a republic, so you know that's okay. If you want a monarchy, whatever, as long as whoever is ruling the nation understands that God is truly the ruler of the world.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Yeah, yeah. And and like I said, this is before 90% of the horrific things were put into law, like to actual, I mean, it's before gay marriage, before contraception, before abortion, before any of like the big, big doozies that come down the road. So,

Authority Obedience And Real Accountability

SPEAKER_02 46:37

um, all right. So then in paragraph five, I saw I highlighted uh, but if those who are in authority are in authority rule unjustly, if they govern overbearingly or arrogantly, and if their measures prove hurtful to the people, they must remember that Almighty God will one day bring them to account. Like this was so good. More strictly in proportion to the sacredness of their office and preeminence of their dignity, the mighty shall be mightily tormented. Then truly will the majesty of the law meet with the dutiful and willing homage of the people when they are convinced that their rulers hold authority from God and feel that it is a matter of justice and duty to obey them. Like this is and this goes to the church authorities too, but Leo can't see that yet. Like he doesn't he doesn't see that this is going to end there, also. They are convinced that their rulers hold authority from God and feel that it is a matter of justice and duty to obey them and to show them reverence and fealty, united to a love not unlike that which children show their parents. Let every soul be subject to higher powers to despise legitimate authority in whomever whomsoever it is vested is unlawful as a rebellion against the divine will, and whoever resists that rushes willfully to destruction. This is this is why I'm hesitant to even really like all the stuff with our own hierarchy. So you have to tread so cautiously when when even criticizing them and calling this one out and calling that one out because it's rebellion against the divine will, and whoever resists that rushes willfully to destruction.

SPEAKER_03 48:15

Well, and just two sentences later, he says to gat cast aside obedience and by popular violence to incite to revolt is therefore treason, not against man only, but against God. Yeah, it's a hard one, right? Like it's well, even even talking about our own, like obviously, yeah, the church, but even talking about like our own our own nations, you know, like like to despise legitimate authority, like is our current government, and I don't just mean like the Trump administration, I mean like our current form of government, does it hold legitimate authority?

SPEAKER_02 48:54

Yeah, if so, you know, like so every four years we have a civil war essentially, right? Like we're in civil war every four years when an election comes around. But no, you're right. Like I had a um, I had a guy that watches our show uh reach out to me recently, and he was like, I'm I'm kind of struggling with all the Trump stuff because we're very critical of Trump. And he's like, like even King Henry, um even uh Thomas um what the heck is his name? Thomas Moore. Thomas More when when when he's going against King Henry VIII, it's like King Henry's doing these horrific things, and he still is like, no, my king, I love you. I would never, you know, and it's like we like we do even, you know, the you think about the way we talk about Biden and we talk about Trump, and it's like they're not we we talk that way because we know they actually don't get their authority from God, like they're just awful rulers that we have.

SPEAKER_03 49:56

One one of the more difficult uh I guess threads running through my entire life um was coming to terms with my father. You know, the the the history he and I had together, our relationship, um, and stuff like that. Like I spent a good portion of my life um despising him, you know. Yeah. And um, and it took a lot to it took a lot to get over. I mean, it took him basically being you know on his deathbed the last few months to really start to get over that and come to terms with the fact that whatever he had or had not done throughout his life and throughout his role as my father, like he was still um my father. And there there is there is a heavy duty there, you know, on both on both ends, and whether or not he had lived up to his, um, it really had nothing to do with whether or not I was going to live up to that's a hard that's a hard one. My duty, and and I'm starting to see that more and more with um with with others in authority in our society, you know. I it I think the the encyclical talks about, you know, uh united to a love, not unlike that which children show their parents. You know, that should be how we view um state and church authority.

SPEAKER_02 51:16

It's hard, man. It's really hard when you got when you got when you got the rulers we have, but even just to flip on its head what you went through with your father, like one day you'll be in that position and you're gonna make a ton of mistakes as a father. Yeah, you know, like you and I are going to make a ton of mistakes as fathers.

SPEAKER_03 51:33

And and I I've started to realize that as a father, you know, starting starting to wonder what little things am I doing or not doing now that are my kids gonna hold against me until they become parents and realize.

SPEAKER_02 51:44

Yeah, and and like every little thing you do is imprinting something in them, you know, and and like when I was I remember having blowouts with my wife, and the kids witnessed them, and you don't know what that does to them. But and and then especially because the conversation came up um recently about somebody in our comments had said uh there's this new thing where um kit kids are going no contact with their parents, right? And I like I've never been in that situation. I'm from a big Italian family. We have blowouts, we fight with each other, but we all make up after. But the thought of my kids going no contact with me because of some mistake I made is like it's really hard. But it's a it's something out of my realm. But I also know that there's some toxic relationships that you have to go no contact with because they're just poisonous, you know? So it's like, but but to your point about like being a father, like you'll one day be judged by the kind of father you are. Your father had to go face his judgment for the kind of father he was, but we still have the duty to honor and love our parents, regardless of what they did. Like, we have to, in the best of our ability, honor our mother and father because it's a commandment from God. Oh, it's a hard one. Um, all right, the next one I have is in chapter six, or paragraph six.

SPEAKER_03 53:01

You have anything before no, we basically read up to that.

SPEAKER_02 53:06

Yeah, uh, since then, no one is allowed to be remiss in the service due to God, and since the chief duty of all men is to cling to religion in both its reaching and practice, reaching and practice, not such religion as they may have preference for, but the religion which God enjoins and which certain and most clear marks show to be the only one true religion, it is a public crime to act as though there were no God. So too, it is a sin for the state not to have care for religion as a something beyond its scope, or as of no practical benefit, or as of many forms of religion to adopt that one which chimes in with the fancy. For we are all bound absolutely to worship God in that way which he has shown to be of his will. All who rule, therefore, would hold and honor the holy name of God, and one of their chief duties must be in the faith be to favor religion, to protect it, to shield it under the credit and sanction of the laws, and neither to organize nor enact any measure that may compromise its safety. This is uh this is the bounding duty of rulers to the people over whom they rule. For one and all, they for one and all are we destined by our birth and adoption to enjoy when this frail and fleeting life is ended, a supreme and final good in heaven, and to the attainment of this very endeavor should be directed. Like I I don't know. I I read that and I was thinking more of the church, like they have a duty. The the the the willingness that the hierarchy had to just play loose and and free with this the the rites and the sacraments and the liturgies of the church during that council, it really is just just heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_03 54:56

We got the Australian watching us.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

You want to know I was freaking me out? Me and Rob both got the same play button. Mine looks like the size of a credit card, and Rob's looks like it's gigantic. It's not right.

SPEAKER_03 55:09

Yeah, that's just gotta be perspective.

SPEAKER_02 55:11

It's gotta be perspective. Did you see I ordered the other one? The second one, right? Yeah, yeah. That's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, I should, I should have ordered the second one. I kind of like the other one better. You can order as many as you want forever, but um, yeah, I still gotta figure out better light. Rob sent me a light, but the light's like 400 bucks or something. I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna just make you people see my red face for a little longer. I'll get it. Just not yet. We gotta build our savings back up. We kind of blew the savings on my new studio.

SPEAKER_03 55:41

So yeah, it looks, I think it looks good. I think it's gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_02 55:46

The studio looks great. It's the lighting that I have to tweak and and figure out. Like I have to, I just have to figure it out. Whatever. We've done this conversation 19 times. But um, where uh where do you have highlighted next? Because I tried not to highlight too much because the thing is so long, right? So I jumped pretty far down after that. I went to 20.

SPEAKER_03 56:04

Um, oh, you went to 20. Yeah, let's see if I have anything that I marked as particularly important. I have a lot highlighted before 20, but let's see if I have it. This is kind of funny.

SPEAKER_02 56:16

The play button size is proportionable to how much each person does. Yes, Rob Rob does the majority of work, therefore his play button is bigger.

SPEAKER_03 56:28

Okay, so uh in 17, um, he actually talks about marriage, and I thought it was um he says domestic society acquires that firmness and solidity so needful to it from the holiness of marriage,

Marriage Family And Christian Civilization

SPEAKER_03 56:45

one and indissoluble, wherein the rights and duty of a husband and wife are controlled with wise justice and equity. Due honor is assured to the woman, the authority of the husband is conformed to the pattern afforded by the authority of God, the power of the father is tempered by a due regard for the dignity of the mother and her offspring, and the best possible provision is made for the guardianship, welfare, and education of the children.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Yeah, the the the in chapter 20 is basically covering those same themes. Um and it's because like we take for granted that this is the the moral order we live under. That husbands are good to their wives, that wives are good to their husbands, that fathers are good to their children. Like we take that for granted. That was not the way of the Roman. Like the Roman citizen treated his wife like a piece of property. His slaves of his yeah, his children, he had the right to kill his children. They were his children, they were his property. He was if if a child disobeyed him, he was that he had the right to kill his own child. So, like, we take for granted this idea of what a family looks like and and the duties of a father and a husband to his wife and children, and the duties of a wife to her husband. Like, this is and it's starting to fall apart before our eyes right now because we're losing that perspective of what Christian family looks like because we live in a dispreved world. But in in 20, it also says, Women, uh, women thou dost subject to their husbands in chaste and faithful obedience, not for the not for the gratifying of their lust. Talking about women and their lust.

SPEAKER_03 58:23

Women, women thou if only because this is from St. Augustine. If only he had heard of book talk.

SPEAKER_02 58:29

Yeah. Uh yeah, so this is from Augustine. Women uh thou dost subject to their husbands in chaste and faithful obedience, not for the gratifying of their lust, but for bringing forth children and for having a share in the family concerns. Thou dost set husbands over their wives, not not that they may be that may they may, oh man, not that they may play false to false to the weaker sex, but according to the requirements of sincere affection. Like sincere affection for your wife is a big thing, right? Like this would this your wife is not just your property. You should you should do this because you have a sincere affection for her. Thou dost subject children to their parents in a kind of free service, and dost establish parents over their children with a benign rule. Thou joinest together not in society only, but in the sort of brotherhood, citizen with citizen, nation with nation, and the whole race of men, by reminding them of their common parentage. Thou teachest kings to look to the interests of their people, and dost admonish the people to be submissive to their kings. With all care dost thou teach all to whom honor is due, and affection and reverence, and fear, consolation, and admonition and exhortation, and discipline, and reproach and punishment. He's talking about the church. This is what the church has taught us. And you really don't like man, the the atheists of today and and the you know the people who think nothing of Christianity, they all get to live in the spoils of men who were subdued by the Christian faith. They take for granted that that the even even like the when you go back to the Me Too movement, right? Like the whole thing was based on debauchery and you know, but it came back to Christian principles where women were angry that men didn't act like Christian men. It was like it's like you guys, you guys had the sexual revolution, you wanted free love. But uh, but regardless, it wasn't just him, though. It's it's it was this backlash from women who were angry that they were taken advantage of. It's like you guys set this, you guys set this system up. You wanted free love, you wanted to just have sex without consequence, and then when men behave like barbarians, because that's what happens when you get rid of Christian morality, when men acted like pagans, now all of a sudden you want to cry about and you want to hold them to some morality that you told them not to uphold anymore. So now these women are mad that these men weren't gentlemen. Like, screw you, you chose these rules, you wanted to play in this in this mud. Um do you have next? Uh 21.

Christendom And The Revolt Of Liberalism

SPEAKER_03 1:01:20

I highlighted the whole of 21 and yeah, yeah. So uh there was once a time when states were governed by the philosophy of the gospel. Then it was that the power and divine virtue of Christian wisdom had diffused itself throughout the laws, institutions, and morals of the people, permeating all ranks and relations of civil society. Then, too, the religion instituted by Jesus Christ, established firmly in befitting dignity, flourished everywhere by the favor of princes and the legitimate protection of magistrates. And church and state were happily united and conquered in friendly interchange of good offices. He's he's describing Christendom here, basically.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:02

Yeah, that's why that's why I said earlier, like he was lamenting the fall of Christendom. Like he's like, when things like when when the church is is playing her proper role and the state is playing its proper role, they the the the state upholds the church because the church disciplines the children, and that makes the rule of government so much more peaceful because the church is keeping people. Oh my gosh, it happened again. Don't worry, somebody will turn it back on. Um, yeah, you see. I still hear you, it's just my my my lights went out.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:34

The state constituted in this wise, uh constituted in this wise, bore fruits important beyond all expectation, whose remembrance is still is still and always will be in renown, witnessed to as they are by countless proofs which can never be blotted out or ever obscured by any craft of any enemies. Christian Europe has subdued barbarous nations and changed them from a savage to a civilized condition, from superstition to true worship. It victoriously rolled back the tide of Mohammedan conquest, retained the headship of civilization, stood forth in the front rank as the leader and teacher of all, in every branch of national culture, bestowed on the world the gift of true and many-sided liberty, and most wisely founded various numerous institutions for the solace of human suffering. And if we inquire how he was able to bring about so altered a condition of things, the answer is beyond all question, in large measure, through religion, under whose auspices so many great undertakings were set on foot, through whose aid they were brought to completion.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:48

Alright, you're gonna have to hang on because I I can't believe it.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:50

Okay, I have a lot okay, I'll just keep reading because I have it all highlighted. A similar state of things would certainly have continued had the agreement of the two powers been lasting. More important results even might have been justly looked for. Had obedience waited upon the authority, teaching, and counsels of the church, and had this submission been specially marked by greater and more unswerving loyalty, for that should be regarded in the light of an ever-changeless law which No of Chartres wrote to Pope Pascal Pascal II. When kingdom and priesthood are at one, in complete accord, the world is well ruled, and the church flourishes and bring forth abundant fruit. But when they are at variance, not only smaller interest not only smaller interests prosper not, but even things of greatest moment fall into deplorable decay. Can you can you not coming back up?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:55

Alright, it might take a second for my uh thing to boot back up. Okay. Yeah, sorry. Where where are you up to now?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:04

Uh I I just finished 22.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:07

Okay, because in 23, I had I have to f it's I have like nine things running on one outlet right now, and she must have turned on the vacuum or something. Um, but that harmful and deplorable passion for innovation, which was aroused in the 16th century, through first, this is like he's getting into the the dark reformation, you know. But that harmful and deplorable passion for innovation, which was aroused in the 16th century, threw first of all into confusion the Christian religion, and next, by natural consequence, invaded the precincts of philosophy, whence it spread amongst all classes of society from this source as from the fountainhead burst forth all those later tenets of unbridled license, which in the midst of the terrible upheavals of the last century were wildly conceived and boldly proclaimed as the principles and foundation of that new conception of. Law, which was not merely previously unknown, but was at variance on many points, not only with the Christian, not only the with not only the Christian, but even the natural law. Like he's talking about America, essentially. Like these are all the principles in which America is not just America, obviously, but like the things that we hold as like sacrosanct in our country are the very things that he's saying are going to like lead to confusion in the Christian religion, um, and by natural consequence invade invade the precincts of philosophy, which then will lead us to no longer obey even the natural law, which is exactly what happened. Yep. Um yeah, like I I even kept going. Like amongst these principles, the main one lays down that as all men are alike by race and nature, so in like manner, all are equal in the control of their life, that each one is so far his own master as to be in no sense under the rule of any other individual, that each is free to think on every subject just as he may choose and do whatever he may like to do, that no man has any right to rule over other men in a society grounded upon such maxims, all government is nothing more nor less than the will of the people, and the people being under the power of itself alone is alone its own ruler. Like that's a government by the people for the people. It's crazy how these things you think as an American are good, and then you're reading the Pope trying to trying to show you where this stuff is going to lead. It's going to lead to chaos and and men no longer following the natural law. Yep. Um, what'd you have next? Oh, I'll just uh just a lot. It is, yeah. I tried to skip as much as I could because it's so good.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:00

Um, like what what did you just uh Okay, you just did 24. Like I have 25, 26, 27 is the next one I have all highlighted. Okay, let's read 27

When The State Claims Church Territory

SPEAKER_03 1:08:11

then. Um now when the state rests on foundations like those just named, and for the time being they are greatly in favor, it readily appears into what and how unrightful a position the church is driven. For when the management of public business is in harmony with doctrines of such a kind, the Catholic religion is allowed a standing in civil society equal only or inferior to societies alien from it. No regard is paid to the laws of the church, and she who, by the order and commission of Jesus Christ, has the due duty of teaching all nations, finds herself forbidden to take any part in the instruction of the people. With reference to matters that are of twofold jurisdiction, they who administer the civil power lay down the law of at their own will, and in matters that appertain to religion defiantly put aside the most sacred decrees of the church. They claim jurisdiction over the marriages of Catholics, even over the bond as well as the unity and the indissolu indissolubility of matrimony. They lay hands on the goods of the clergy.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:14

I want to stop you there. Like our our man, there's so much there. Um because we in America, like you never thought anything of like the state recognizing marriage, but the state also then takes this duty that they could go, oh well, we're just gonna give you a divorce. Where the church is the church is like, no, no, no, that's like the marriage is our realm. You don't you don't get to have a say over marriage, marriage is our realm. And the the government is basically like, well, you know, the church does what it does, but we're gonna give you a decree of divorce. And the church sees that where this is where this is heading. And I I yeah, there's never I never thought about this stuff. Like, so do you think the church do you think the state should have any say in marriage, or do you think it should just be totally given back to the to this to the religious realm?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:16

I don't think there should even be marriage licenses, to be honest. Like it should be yeah, it really should be the realm realm of the church.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:27

I mean, but I suppose But like there is a good when the chur when the state recognizes a marriage, yeah and gives tax benefits to a family and things like that. Like, I I I see a benefit in that. Like, you do want the state to recognize the benefits and goods of marriage, but what happens is then the state gets involved and they're like, Well, we'll call anything a marriage. So I like the average person looking 20 25 years ago would have never thought anything of this stuff. Maybe, maybe go back before no fault divorce or something, you know, like you know, before 1970 or whatever. And you're like, no, no, no, it's good that the state recognizes marriage, then all of a sudden they give no fault divorce, and then all of a sudden they're they're recognizing uh same-sex marriage. Next thing you know, they're punishing men for their wives filing for divorce when the wife is the one who cheated. Like, there's the you know, there's things that the state did to absolutely destroy marriage and the covenant, yeah. Um, yeah, wait, so I was saying that word had a good comment. So, like, like it's good to encourage marriage, but with how much the state has screwed up marriage, encouraging divorce and screwing over men, I'll pass on the tax breaks.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:41

Yeah, it's yeah, well, the the thing uh so Joe Joe Diodotti says, could you imagine the state recognizing baptisms? Currently, no, that would right because it'd be crazy to think that, but I mean, as as Joshua Charles talked about during the last episode, that was how you became a citizen of a Christian nation was through baptism. You know, you weren't really a citizen unless you were a baptized, you know, Catholic.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:08

So in in France, you can't get married in the church until you have a government wedding, which is not a valid wedding. So, like the church wedding isn't licit or legal on its own. It's like, but that's in America, too. Like America, you could get married in a church, but you need a government witness there. Like, if you just went and got married in a church, it wouldn't be a legal marriage. Right. Appreciate you, man. Thank you. It you know what it is, it's a it's a it's a it's it's an in-depth series, it's an in-depth look at this stuff, and we're trying to do something that's of substance and still pertaining to the Catholic faith. And we're we're dealing with the current crisis by looking back at the things that were coming down the pike. These shows are never going to be huge. They're we just don't care. Like, I honestly, I'm at a point where I don't care if they're big, I just I'm I'm enjoying it.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:58

Like like five to ten years from now, like our our our usual episodes where we're talking about whatever was going on at the time won't matter, you know, they won't mean anything. But this series will always hopefully mean yeah, it's an evergreen series.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:13

You could send it if you got a long car ride and you want to, you know, if you don't have time to sit and watch it live, it's like if you got a long car ride, it's a good one to throw on for a two-hour car ride or something. So um, the next one I had highlighted was like uh 31. So I don't know if you had anything in between there. Um it's just so it's just so dense and packed, like you could literally read the entire encyclical. It's like we're trying to give you guys the highlights and uh some of the things that like popped out to us because it we know it's hard to sit and read an encyclical, but the some of this stuff is just so good, and you're just like, man, like the the popes before the council saw this stuff coming, and then all of a sudden they have this council, and it's like uh John the 23rd's like, Oh, enough with the prophets of doom.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:57

It's like, no, bring back the prophets of doom, man. Uh, this is there, there is a specific playlist for this already set up on the channel. Um, I for the link is in the description, so just click on the playlist link and it will it should play them all.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:11

Yeah, if you're checking this one out now and you didn't watch the last one, like Joshua Charles jumped on halfway through the last one, like after the historical section, Josh jumped on with us and we discussed Freemasonry and secret societies and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:24

So um, so I have I have 31 highlighted as well, especially the last sentence. Um, I I the last sentence you could say is kind of like TLM versus novas ordo sort of thing. And 31.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:42

Yeah, so if you want to read it, literally highlighted the same thing, and I put it in a different color than the beginning of 31. You want to read the whole thing? So I I basically like the beginning of it, I highlighted in yellow, and then like I cut it in half, and then I skipped a couple sentences and I highlighted the rest in green. But um, the sovereignty of the people, however, uh, and this without any reference to God is held to reside in a multitude, which is doubtless a doctrine exceedingly well calculated to flatter and to inflame many passions. That's important, like the sovereignty of the people, and you know that it's meant to inflame passions.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:16

Well, they're they're bribing you with your own vote, basically.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:20

Yeah, and and and that's that's yeah, and it also makes like selling offices of the state like you know, like a thing, but it it it inflames passions against each other, so you're no longer seeing you're like think about the the you know the division between Republicans and Democrats, you know. It's it's kind of crazy, and and uh um so you were drawing in your book like a prot girly. Yeah, with different colors. Well, no, so me and Rob have this app uh called Voice Voice Note, or is that what it's called?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:55

I I I actually don't.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:56

I I've been reading them, but I've been well, I listen to the audio of them on my way home from work, and then because I I want to listen to it first, and then I go back and I and I reread it and it lets you highlight it and stuff. So uh so where I went next is indeed from the prevalence of this teaching, which is you know the the sovereignty of the people, uh indeed, from the prevalence of this teaching, things have come to such a pass that may hold as an axiom of civil jurisprudence that seditions may be rightfully fostered. For the opinion prevails that princes are nothing more than delegates chosen to carry out the will of the people, once it necessarily follows that all things are as changeable as the will of the people, so the so that risk of public disturbance is ever hanging over our heads. I mean, we see this even with Trump when he didn't follow his campaign promises, how crazy everybody went, you know. Um to hold, therefore, that there is no difference in matters of religion between forms that are unlike each other and even contrary to each other, most clearly leads in leads in the end to the rejection of all religion in both theory and practice. So, like the idea that um you believe what you believe, I believe what I believe, what it ends in the rejection of all religion. And it ends in A. And the same, and this is the same thing as atheism, however, it may differ if differ in it from name. Men who really believe in the okay, god this next part as you were.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:27

This is what I hadn't agreed. I I like this.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:32

Men who really believe in the existence of God must, in order to be consistent with themselves and to avoid absurd conclusions, understand that differing modes of divine worship involving dissimilarity and conflict, even on most important points, cannot all be equally probably or equally probable, equally good, and equally acceptable to God. That was like, which is why they are freaking not budging with the SSPX, which is why you they had to uh give us traditionus custodis, because you can't have those two things being upheld as two two two forms of the same right, right? Like like Benedict's is the extraordinary form and the ordinary form. Like you can't, because when you put them side by side, one is a is basically a mockery of the other, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:24

Yeah, yeah. I mean, he says differing modes of worship involving dissimilarity cannot be equally good. I mean, it's just logical. If they're not the same, they can't be equal. It's just how it works.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:41

It's just it's like oh man, it was a that was uh so too. The liberty of thinking and of publishing, whatsoever each one likes without any hindrance, is not in it in itself an advantage over which society can wisely rejoice. So, like freedom of the press is not something you should be praising. I mean, it can work good in some cases, but then in others, it's like book burning should happen. There should be a list of banned books that Catholics should not read because they're poisonous, they destroy your soul. On the contrary, it is the fountainhead and origin of many evils. Liberty is a power perfecting man and hence should have truth and goodness for its object, but the character of goodness and truth cannot be changed, be changed at option. These remain ever one in this. Can you imagine like a can you imagine Pope Leo the 14th talking like this?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:33

I I I can't, yeah, I can't imagine any Pope besides the council or any probably for the next 80 years talking like this.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:42

These remain ever one and the same and are no less unchangeable than nature itself. If the mind assents to false opinions and the will chooses and follows after what is wrong, neither can attain its native fullness, but both must fall from their native dignity into an abyss of corruption. Like this is it's this is a prophecy. It's a it's a legitimate prophecy. Um, whatever, therefore, is opposed to virtue and truth may not be rightly brought temptingly before the eye of man, much less sanctioned by the favor and protection of the law. A well-spent life is the only way to heaven, whither all are bound. And on this account, the state is acting against the laws and dictates of nature whenever it permits the license of opinion and of action to lead minds astray from truth and souls away from the practice of virtue. To exclude the church founded by God Himself from life, from laws, from the education of youth, from domestic society is a grave and fatal error. A state from which religion is banished can never well regulate, can never be well regulated. And already perhaps more than is desirable is known of the nature and tendency of the so-called civil philosophy of life and morals. Like he's just saying, like it can't, it, it can't, it's not gonna be well. Like our our fate in America is destruction because of the principles we're founded on. Like there, there's no way around that. It's it's it's not a it's not, you know, you can't put a can't put a timestamp on it, but it is bound for destruction because of the principles our country was founded on.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:19

I think we have a crazy prod in the comments.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:22

Please be smart, stop talking to demonic spirits, pretending to be the Lord Jesus Christ. Oh, we I also for Thursday's show, I have I found a Protestant podcast losing it over Father Ripperger.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:35

Oh, that's gonna be good.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:36

And we're gonna cut clips and we're gonna go over that on Thursday, I think, because it is just hilarious. These guys think that the intelligence agencies, the CIA, were all founded by the Knights of Malta.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:47

I'm like, wait, which are the the Knights of Malta, the Knights of uh the Knights Hospitaler from the Crusades.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:55

They think the Roman Catholic Church is in charge of the American Intel agencies. It's like they think Rome is the Jews, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:03

No, no, no. You you guys got it backwards. The CIA is the boss of the of the of at least of Vatican II, probably.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:11

Yeah, there's a lot going on there, but um uh all right. So, what do you got next? I got 34.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:18

Um, that's funny.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:20

You you and I highlighted almost the exact opposite paragraphs, which is good because that means you got an insight from something, and and I got an insight from I know, but it means we have the whole ding thing to talk about. I know it is it is going to make this difficult, but well, I got between I don't I got 34 because he highlights Mirari Voss, and and I was just reading this paragraph to my wife earlier because um well, whatever. You read yours and I'll and I'll get it.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:50

Well, no, I don't have anything till 36, so you go.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:53

Okay, so 34 is doctrines such as these, which cannot be approved by human reason and most seriously affect the whole civil order. Our predecessor, the Roman pontiffs, uh, well aware of what their apostolic office required of them, have never allowed to pass uncondemned. Thus, Gregory the 16th and his encyclical, Morari Voss, dated 1832, August 15th, invade with weighty words against the sophism of the sophisms, which sophisms, which even at this time were being publicly inculcated, namely that no preference should be shown for any particular form of worship, that it is right for individuals to form their own personal judgments about religion, that each man's conscience is his sole and all-sufficing guide, and that it is lawful for every man to publish his own views, whatever they may be, and even conspire against the state. On the question of the separation of church and state, the same pontiff writes also nor can we hope for happier results either for religion or for the civil government from the wishes of those who desire that the church be separated from the state and the concord between the secular and ecclesiastical authority be dissolved. So I was explaining to my wife how these are such American principles, right? Yeah. That freedom of religion and everybody has a right to their own conscience, to the point where even our own hierarchy will say things about freedom of conscience, like, look, your conscience is the pro the primordial Christ, which you know is true, but the way they use it, it's like you know, somebody within with without a properly formed conscience can not be sinning, even though they're doing something horrific if they are following their conscience. And it's it's a vile thing to think. But the Leo is pointing out that this is actually going to lead to the destruction of your society. Oh man, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on. It is clear that these men who yearn for a shameless liberty live in dread of an agreement which has always been fraught with good and advantageous alike to the sacred and civil interests, to the like effect, also as occasion presented itself to Pius IX brand publicly many false opinions which were gaining ground and like all of this stuff. This is this is before the the communist revolutions really take hold, right? So, like Rare Novarum is written in response to those communist revolutions, but he sees it on the horizon, not in response.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:20

When the the first communist revolution is until you know 1917. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:26

But he sees the idea, but it's it's written in response to you know Marx and Engels Communist Manifesto, which had been so the revolutions haven't happened yet, but these ideas are popping up, and he's starting to see that like like he sees this is just going to be calamity upon a calamity, and it's just going to just it's going to end in ash, all of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:46

Mm-hmm. Um, did you have anything before 36? No.

Voting Public Duty And The Vance Clip

SPEAKER_03 1:25:52

So on Twitter earlier today, I I made the the quip that Leo the 13th might convince me that I should actually vote again. Um, and that's because he says here, neither is it blameworthy in itself in any manner for the people to have a share greater or less in the government. For at certain times and under certain laws, um, such participation may not only be of benefit to the citizens, but may even be of obligation.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:21

So, okay, so I think I think he's assuming that elections aren't rigged. Yeah, right. He's assuming elections aren't rigged, right? But he's also looking back to how Christendom formed in the first place. Yeah, and the way Christendom forms in the first place is the church does her thing, converts souls, and those souls actually like rot, like you eventually get people of power who are in the Senate and they are in these positions of of civil authority, who now have a formed Catholic conscience, and they get to start adjusting the way things go. So I think he's almost looking at it in respect to, yeah, look, if you're a Catholic and you can have a role in civil government, that's actually a good thing because it can bring about good fruits, just like it did in the early church, as Christendom is being formed in seed form, you know. Um this is probably a good time to play the clip of Vance when they ask him about his um disagreements with Pope Leo.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:26

Right now, you think?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:27

Yeah, I think this is a perfect time to do that. Okay, let me find it real quick. This is kind of what Leo the 13th is talking about, right? Like it, like um, neither is it blameworthy in itself in any manner for the people to have a share, have a share greater or less in the government, right? So now we have a Catholic vice president, but he's in disagreement with the Pope to some degree. But the way Vance handles this goes to this encyclical, really. Like Vance is able to just kind of write off the Pope. Go, uh, look, I know I think. The you know the Pope does his thing, and you know, we do our thing, we have separate roles, and and it's only that way because Vatican II made it thus. Like it's only that way because Vatican II made it that way. But there was a time where if you were a Catholic, I'm sorry, you were subject to the Roman pontiff.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:17

How do you process Pope Leo's criticisms of the administration, you know, on war and you know, have the treatment of migrants?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:26

So the way that I think about it, first of all, you know, I do think that the media, not saying you, but the media often tries to treat the Pope as this sort of far-left guy, where he said it's reasonable for a nation to have borders, it's reasonable for nation to enforce its borders. Yes, he has said some critical things, but the way that I take it is I try to listen and I try to understand, I try to understand the perspective, but fundamentally, the job that I have is to apply moral principles to the problems that exist. I certainly think the Pope is going to have interesting views on that. I certainly take those views under consideration, but it's not my job to sort of say, well, just because the Pope disagrees with me, I'm gonna do something different for the American people. I think he has his role, I have my role, the president has his role, and the pope's role is as a preacher of the gospel, certainly an important moral voice, but I think somebody where you've got to you gotta you gotta weigh everything, you gotta say, absolutely, we can treat people humanly, we can also have a border. Part of my job is to balance those things. I think part of the Pope's job is to remind us. I'm sorry, but like Vatican II, this is he's just following Vatican II, and I don't think so.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:31

I I think everything he said there is pretty much in line with this encyclical. I I really do. I he he because the the the the two the two powers, you know, that the church, the church and the state are are have the authority in their spheres, right? And yeah, the church has the authority to teach on faith and morals, yeah. And yes, the state is is bound to to to follow that and and and believe in those faith and morals, but the state is the one that has the authority to apply those faith and morals.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:07

When talking about an issue of morality, like like I'm not saying JD Vance should be just subject to the Roman pontiff and just do whatever he says. I'm just saying the the way he's like, well, the Pope is the preacher of the gospel.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:21

His attitude is is a little flippant for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:23

It's a little, it's a little flippant of who the who the Pope is, who the Roman pontiff is. And he's like, oh, you know, he's kind of just like you know, he's a preacher of the gospel, you know. No, he's the Roman pontiff in reality, right? And his words should hold more weight, but they've made it where the Pope is kind of playing this political game and he's not, you know, it's it's just it the it's it's it's led to a degradation of the papacy in general.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:51

The council since the council. There's just a degradation in in the office of the papacy, and it's sad because I think JD Vance, like, I mean, I I can't I can't tell if he's genuine or if he but I mean he's a smart guy, right? Like he he gives good answers, and like especially when talking about like the the the order of uh the order of charity and stuff like that. Like he he's a smart guy. He's not you know, I don't know how much he believes the stuff or if he's using it as a skin skin shoot to get elected to stuff, but yeah, he it's um he's an interesting character. So I mean if they're all right, so here's the thing, we're at an hour and a half, and I think we should I don't know if you have something like big highlighted, but look, you're not gonna get through this whole thing, and I I think it's almost brutal to do that to everybody.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:42

Yeah, I do uh I had one I had one thing that I I kind of tweeted earlier that um if you ever want to just destroy uh a left cast or or liberal catholic uh position on anything, that this is what I would go with. Leo says it is unlawful to follow one line of conduct in private life and another in public, respecting privately the authority of the church, but publicly rejecting it. For this would amount to joining together good and evil, and to putting man in conflict with himself, whereas he ought always to be consistent, never in the least point nor in any condition of life to swerve from Christian virtue.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:26

Yeah, I mean look, I I'll say this.

What This Changes For Catholics Today

SPEAKER_02 1:32:29

Um It's it's been hard to read these encyclicals in light of the current situation, but they're also really informative, and they've I I've I've learned a lot about some of my own um improper views. Like like I've had I've had many incorrect views by growing up in America and being raised in the public school system, and like because I I I love certain uh like even learning the Catholic faith, like you learn certain apologetic arguments and you learn church history, but to actually understand like what our philosophical lens should be and understanding the the the modern errors, it it's I don't know, it's it's been pretty it's been pretty important for me.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:24

Yeah, you know, you're right where it's it's hard to read the sort of things we used to hear from the our popes. Um and compared to what we hear now, there is definitely a sense of uh discontinuity there. But on the other hand, like uh I wouldn't say it um it is somewhat in a weird way comforting to also realize like the our the the crisis of the modern age isn't as modern or new as we like to think it is, yeah. You know, like like yes, the what the the way the church has handled things since 1960 is way different than how they were handling it in 1860, but they were both fighting against this the same struggles in in in a sense it's made me realize uh that at least for the vast majority of of of the churchmen at Vatican II, uh they probably really were doing what they thought they you know because they they saw us uh a century of how the the church had handled it, and it just didn't work for whatever reason, right? You know, Leo the 13th is as amazing as this encyclical was, it didn't stop the march of liberalism.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:45

What what I'll tell you what it's giving me an appreciation for is Marshall's thesis, infiltration, infiltration, infiltration. I mean, this stuff has you know, it's not it's not some drastic thing that happened at the council. No, it's it was a slow infiltration of the church, and it's just gotten so pervasive in the minds of men, and it it's less an infiltration of people.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:11

I mean, sure, there are obviously bad actors, but it is definitely it's it's more of an infiltration of a worldview of an idea of a worldview of philosophy.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:19

I yeah, 100%. It's just this pervasive toxic poison that has infected the minds of all of us, all of us like we're not exempt from it. We're learning this stuff as we're going, going, holy crap, I didn't even know this stuff was bad. And it's all because we didn't listen to the warnings of the popes who came before. So it's it's been really good. We're gonna jump into uh uh rarum Navarum next. Um, we'll we'll see how that one goes because hour and a half is a long time for these shows. So maybe we'll break that one into uh two hour-long episodes.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:53

Yeah. Plus, it will give us at a future date the ability to splice them together and release it when we don't want to do another actual episode. Make a super cut of it later.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:06

All

Locals Teaser Sponsors And Next Steps

SPEAKER_02 1:36:07

right. So here's what we got in locals. Um I I I would I would totally be up for debating this. Some woman said, Married women, have you ever said yes to sex because you didn't want to deal with his moodiness if you said no? And I thought that was an interesting one because married men, have you ever said yes to something because you didn't want to deal with your wife's moodiness if you said no? And I think that that could be an interesting conversation we could do. We have the ortho, we have the orthobro wars going on where we have this father uh Emmanuel Lamelson, uh, him going off on on uh like Jay Dyer, Father Josiah, Father Stephen DeYoung. He's kind of mocking American Orthodoxy because American Orthodoxy is kind of absurd.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:57

It's so it's too good, to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:01

It's just a it's just it's I don't know. Like I I would never be tempted to go that way.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:07

It's American Protestants Protestantism with smells and bells. That's it. It's American liberalism in pretty vestments.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:18

They have the same rejection of authority the Protestants have against their own higher their own hierarchy. I'm sorry, the hiccups, guys. Um I got Zen hiccups right now. Or uh Zen, you traitor. Um, then we got I want to do Leo doing the SSPX thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:40

Um, all right, so we're going over to locals, guys. Jump over to locals.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:43

Let me get the link for everyone. How would Ant know what it how Italy is doing in the World Cup? How are they doing in the World Cup? I don't know. I don't know how America's doing in the World Cup.

unknown 1:37:56

I have no idea.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:57

All I've been watching is how the Scots Love America.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:01

Do they been watching those videos on Twitter? No, but I've been seeing like the Venezuelans fighting the Ecuadorians and all that crap.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:08

Oh my World Cup and your Twitter's still about race wars.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:13

That's all they want.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:14

My World Cup is watching a Scottish guy go into a Buckeys.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:18

The South American wars are hilarious to me because I work with all guys from different South American countries and they all hate each other. And it's all racial. Like it's they like I'm telling you, the the Hondurans hate the Ecuadorians, and the they all just hate each other. Um all right, so yeah, we're gonna go over to the other side. We're gonna do SSPX, we're gonna do ortho bro drama, and um next episode we have Protestants going after Father Rippiger, and we're gonna mock them mercilessly.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:51

Uh send them to uh Robert at avoidingbabylon.com and I'll read over them.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:57

Robert, not Rob. Because I've given your I've given your email addresses Rob at avoiding Babylon. It's Robert at Avoiding Babylon.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:04

Or team, team at avoidingbabylon.com. You got a taffy outro? No, he's he's making one for what what are we doing? What are we doing Thursday? Is Nancy Charles coming on this Thursday or next? Oh, she is, yes, we're getting Nancy on Thursday. Okay, so Taffy, Taffy, careful, careful now. This careful, but you have to make a Nancy Charles intro somehow. Now careful, because we love Nancy. So it would be best just to do one making fun of her brother. I think. I think that's safest.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:37

Oh, we're gonna get we're gonna get her to spill the tea on Josh. I'm gonna go Nancy. I know you think you wanted to talk about like what it's like to to be under the car. How was he as a 10-year-old Josh? We wanted to know what kind of what kind of an a-hole is he to work for.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:54

That's right. She does work for him. Can you imagine how much of a perfectionist he is?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:59

Oh, he is the bossiest perfectionist on earth. That poor girl. He's gotta be a drama queen, right? Oh my gosh, you have no idea. Oh my goodness. I can't imagine what that poor girl goes through. All right, we'll see you guys on the other side. Uh, what am I gonna put? That's like oh Jamie, you suck. I'm sorry. Like hit the post, man. Like that's like the out.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:23

Uh man, I don't know. Just some Enoch on. We did the Asian one, right? We already did that one. That was funny. Uh we can't do Enoch because then he'll get part of the cut. We'll just do this.