Rome Has Spoken: The Last Pope-King & the Council That Declared Him Infallible | Vatican I

Transcript

The Stormy Infallibility Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:32

On the morning of July eighteenth, eighteen seventy, in a thunderstorm so violent the bishops inside Saint Peter's Basilica could barely hear the words being read aloud, the Catholic Church declared the Pope of Rome to be infallible. Two months later, almost to the day, Italian troops blew a hole in the wall of Rome, and the thousand-year-old Papal State ceased to exist. This is the story of how one of the Church's most controversial dogmas was proclaimed in the exact moment the Pope lost his earthly kingdom.

Studio Updates And Next Shows

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Okay. A little little execution. A little explanation. Um I moved my studio, and my new studio is in progress of being set up. So I had my son had these like things on the wall that he used to keep his records on, and I had to find books that were thin enough. So I'm like, all right, I got a couple St. Anthony's books here. I got the Baltimore Catechism. That's what's going on. But I do have like a really nice avoiding Babylon sign coming. And that this this studio arrangement is going to be set up differently. Uh and the by by the next time uh I do a show. Uh Rob, you're going away, right? I am tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Um when do you get back? Uh next Tuesday night.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Do you think I won't be on the show Tuesday night, I'll be driving still, but do you think we could do the series on Thursday next week? Yes. So instead of doing it, so so next week's going to be a little bit of a changeup. We're going to do it Thursday next week. And I uh I'm going to possibly get Father Amato on uh Thursday night. Rob will be away, it'll just be me. I'm gonna possibly get Father Amato for Thursday. If he can't make it, I may just do a solo show and just have a locals call in and just like let people from locals come on or something. We'll figure that out. And then next Tuesday, while you're away, I think I'm gonna get Catholic State on to discuss the Benedictine College uh thing that happened. Okay, and also do some JQ stuff. So that's that's the plan going forward. Um, this episode, man, it made me want to go back and do the Council of Trent.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Yeah, we might, you know, there's a lot of things we could do once we kind of finish the the arc we're on.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Like we could like get get up to the council maybe and then backtrack some, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Right. Or yeah, that would be that would be one option. Another option would be like we're seeing how like Rome responded to all of these historical things we're talking about, right? It would be interesting to see how uh different peoples or different nations responded to them, right? Just you know, like uh you know, Spain, what Spain how it responded to like the Napoleonic Rev uh Wars and the French Revolution were three wars during the 1800s called the Carlist Wars that created uh a traditional sort of movement that was still around during the Spanish Civil War and that provided a lot of um force, a lot of forces to the nationalist side in that war. So I think there's a lot of cool stuff we could do.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Yeah, I dude, I kind of want to go back to earlier popes, like I want to go to Pope Galicius, like I picked the clip.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Um I think the problem's gonna be with that is that we don't have near the amount of writing from from previous popes, right? One because encyclicals didn't really exist, and and two, they're just earlier in history, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Uh well, the other thing is like this whole like lead up to Vatican I, I think in hindsight, we all look at it and especially because of the whole set of Acantist conversation that's going on, like people maybe in the modern day think that the Pope is reacting to something in the church, like to things in the church, which he is, don't get me wrong, but so much of this is about the conflict between church and state. And it's like you you going in and doing the research for this is when it really starts to hit home that you know, us quoting something from Vatican I to you know to a modernist or to a trad or like it's it's not it wasn't written for that argument, the argument was written in a completely different context, and it kind of gets you know re like rewired for for the modern arguments, but it just doesn't make sense in a lot of cases. But um, I threw up I threw in one clip, uh, the conflict between church and state from the fifth century, Rob. I want like just to see how far back this conflict goes. Because it's always been the problem. And the thing is, the church, especially in those early centuries, um the the church really saw the the prophecies in Daniel about the the uh Nebuchadnezzar's dream with the with the um with the statue, like the head of gold, the chest of silver, the the the you know, the bronze and the legs of iron, and then the the the leg the legs of iron and clay that crumble and become a mountain. They saw that as the Babylonian Empire, then the Persian Empire, then the Greek Empire, then the Roman Empire, and the Roman Empire crumbles and covers the earth. And they see the Roman Empire then becoming Christian and covering the earth, and they have this real sense of like there's one empire and it must cover the earth, and that's the dream of Christendom that kind of falls apart after the fall of Rome, and it kind of and they reworked their theology to understand it differently and through subsidiarity and things like that, but that really is the emphasis in those early centuries of Christianity. So just play that clip real quick because it kind of gets into that a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Many of the popes came from senatorial families, the born to lead civil servants of empire. Popes would not dare ascend St. Peter's throne without having their election ratified and approved by the emperor. This was the age-old custom.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

They continued to believe that the I don't I don't know if that's true.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

In the early, early centuries. This is like this is before this is Constantine era.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Yeah, that might be that maybe that one particular thing, but listen to where it goes.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Nothing can be changed unless it is handed down. Nothing should be changed. This was still Rome, but it was old Rome. Everything had changed. There was now a new Rome. The political center of the empire was now in the East. The new Rome was Constantinople. By the end of the fifth century, the emperor was making increasing claims to authority over the church. Pope Galasius, Roman-born, would have none of it. There are two powers by which this world is ruled: the sacred authority of bishops and the royal power. Of these, the responsibility of the bishops carries most weight.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

So that is the argument that starts getting set up in those early centuries, and there's this constant battle between between the temporal rulers and the and the and the pope and the church. And it kind of plays out throughout the centuries. And what we're dealing with in Vatican I is more of that that that figuring out, okay, what because the what I what I never really put together was that how much backlash um Pius got from the Marian dogmas. Like people really were like, what is this? What are you talking about? Like uh because he he basically said that you had to believe it as an article of faith essentially that if you you know if you don't believe Mary is the Immaculate Conception, you can't be Catholic.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

So it raised all these debates.

SPEAKER_02 10:09

Not maybe not within the church. I'm talking about from like from from the outside circles. That's from from everything I was checking out. That's what I was that's what I was getting from it.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

So he doesn't got more pushback for the syllabus than he did about the Immaculate Conception.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Oh yeah? Oh yeah. Um, okay, so where are you gonna where are you gonna start us off with the uh with the history board?

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Well,

Sponsor Reads And Locals Teasers

SPEAKER_01 10:33

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SPEAKER_02 11:49

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How Europe Cornered The Papacy

SPEAKER_02 13:59

the way. So where do you want to take us tonight, Rob?

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Okay, so uh if you've watched the first two episodes, you you basically know how we got here, but if you haven't, I'll just summarize it real quick. So 1832, uh Gregory the Seventh is basically looking at the wreckage of the French Revolution, the Napoleonic Wars, um, the upheavals in 1830. And um, you know, uh he's looking at the devastation left by liberal priests within the church who you know were trying to more or less baptize this new liberal secular order. And he answered all that with Murari Voss. Then in 1864, Pius IX, who we called the once liberal pope, um he uh he had watched his own prime minister get murdered in 1848 on the steps of his own palace. He uh and he issues quanticura and the syllabus of errors, and he condemns 80 uh propositions of the modern world uh by name. And so basically, after those after those two popes, well, this is still within Pius IX, but after those things, the world responds basically as you would have expected. Um, you know, all the secular forces in Europe, they didn't like try to engage the arguments or debate the theology, they basically just started mocking the Pope, legislating against the church, closing monasteries, seizing church property, um, and they kept quietly and methodically dismantling the papal states, basically one region at a time. So by 1864, which is uh um by 1864, that's when he issues Quanticurre and the Sylvus of Errors, he rules almost nothing by that point, Pius IX. Um by 1868, he basically had just the city of Rome itself, and even that he only had because France had a garrison of troops um inside of it, protecting it from the new kingdom of Italy. And basically the question that was hanging over Europe right at that point wasn't you know uh whether or not the Pope would lose the rest of the Papal States, basically the city of Rome. The question was when it was going to happen. Um so that's basically where we're at when Pius IX decides to call an ecumenical council. Now, what wait, what year is the council called? Uh it's called in 1868, like that's when he calls it, but it doesn't really happen until 1870.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Yeah, he's he starts like planning this earlier on, right? And there's the other thing I was looking into was the the the rivalry between Manning and Newman is is a really interesting one, too. Like I didn't I I thought they were just kind of like cordial uh adversaries, like you know, like they they're just thinking different sides of the argument. There was some real tension between those two guys, which is kind of interesting going going into this debate that that happens at the at this council and the way things uh pan out.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

But you yeah, so you might know you might know more about about I mean I yeah, you might know more about their rivalry. I just know about like their you know what they were arguing and this the different sides they were on of the issue. So once we get to that, um once we're talking about that, you might have to step in there.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I because I I I did a little looking into them because I mean I I've never really read Newman, but I have read Cardinal Manning, and I'm more of a Manning guy. And the more I look into it, what's interesting, well, we'll get into it when we get over there, because it's it's actually I there's a I think there's a reason why I'm attracted more to him than than Newman. So we'll we'll we'll get to that at that

Why Pius IX Calls Vatican I

SPEAKER_02 17:46

point.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Um, okay, so why did Pius the Ninth call a council? So on June 29th, 1868, which is the feast of Saints Peter and Paul, um, Pius the Ninth did something that no Pope had done for 300 years, basically. At that point, he convokes an ecumenical council, and it's the first council since Trent had closed in 1563. So it's what it's 305 years.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

This is a big deal, right? Like it's been 300 years, and the way that they talk the longest period without an ecumenical council, and the way they talk about Trent in Vatican I is just like time after time after time, yeah. That's why I want to go back and maybe take a better look at Trent because Mike, I have such a cursory knowledge of it. It's like, oh, the Reformation happened, and then they call the you know, they called the council to squash out justification. Like that's the extent of my understanding of Trent, and I really kind of think there's probably way more meat to get into in that period.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

I think if we look, I think if we were to do and were to look at the historical context, not just of like the the Reformation, but like why the Reformation happened then and not in previous times, I think we would see that that the conflict of state versus church, uh especially of Christian state versus Christian church, really uh maybe doesn't start with uh the Reformation in Trent. But I I mean I think you could draw a pretty straight line from there to you know Vatican I. Like yeah, so I think that would be interesting to do.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

The other thing that ah man, I never, you know, I goof around about the Irish a lot, but the to the extent at which the Irish repelled Protestantism with Catholic England constantly pressuring them, like Catholic Ireland, they held their own for a long time, man. They they crumble after the council 400 years, basically, right? Of just constant pressure from England, and they held their own, man. It's uh you know I we definitely have to get back into that period. So all right, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Okay, so the council that that is convened has a pretty straightforward uh mandate at uh at the outset. There it's called basically to address the errors of the modern age. Um, the council was called to define what the church believed about faith, reason, uh, revelation, and the authority of the Holy See in a world that really didn't you know any longer recognize any of those things at all. Um, but uh beneath the surface there was definitely more going on. Uh Pius IX was basically calling a council because the syllabus of errors hadn't seemed to be enough. Um, you know, an encyclical, um even even one that contains the syllabus of errors, um, it can be argued with, right? It can be dismissed as just one Pope's opinion. Um, but a solemn decree of an ecumenical council with bishops bishops from all over the world gathered in union with the successor of Peter, um, that carries a really a different kind of weight, you know, a weight that that's really truly binding. Um and Pius IX, you know, at this point, he he's no longer just trying to teach the modern world anymore through an encyclical. He, you know, he's really trying to bind the uh the modern world to the modern church by using an ecumenical council. Um but before, you know, uh before the the church has to you know fight against the rest of the modern world, uh part of this council is really about settling a war that had been simmering inside the church for about 200 years at this point.

Gallicanism Versus Rome Loyalty

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Um and on one side of that war you had the Gallicans, and that name comes from Gaul, you know, the old name for France. Um and so what happened, what how that started in sixteen eighty two under Louis the Fourteenth. Um and Louis the Fourteenth is like Uh he he's he when you think of uh of an absolute monarch, Louis the Fourteenth is is like the stereotype of that. You know, he's called the Sun King. Um and you know, absolute monarchy was was was not really it wasn't a Catholic invention, it was a Protestant invention, right? You under Henry the Eighth, um but you had France uh and other Catholic monarchs eventually uh adapt um you know adopt absolute monarchy so they could increase their own power. So Louis XIV is is an absolute monarch in the the the worst sense of the word. Um and in 1682 he signs what are called the Gallican Articles. And basically these documents um more or less say that the Pope's authority stops at the border of France when it comes to civil and secular matters. The articles declare that the Pope's authority is subject to the decisions of an ecumenical council, so kind of put the pope under the authority of councils. The documents declare that the exercise of papal authority must be regulated by the canons of the church, and that the pope must respect the the customs of local churches, like of national churches. Finally, the articles uh the the Gallican articles said that even in matters of faith, the Pope's decisions and teachings were not irreformable unless they were confirmed by the consent of the universal church. Um let me go down here. Uh in this wasn't really a fringe position necessarily. So, because for two centuries, like from that up until Vatican I, Gallicanism was, or you know, what even if it wasn't always French in nature, Gallicanism was the default assumption of basically most of like the the Catholic nations in Europe.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Different Catholic just just for um the passing, the like the length of time information takes to travel alone.

unknown 24:03

Right?

SPEAKER_02 24:03

You think about it like a put the pope makes a decree in Rome. By the time that information even gets to the outside church, like you there was way more autonomy in uh amongst local bishops, like it's it's an anomaly, the situation in the church of the modern era, where the pope says, like we we see every single thing the pope does, and we know exactly what's going on in Rome. This is this is like uh insane to consider that in this time period. The the telegraph is just being invented, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Yeah, one of my uh this comment says poor Bosway got swept up in Gallicanism. But uh Bishop Bosway is um I've done his Advent and Lent and meditations on the channel, really, really good stuff. But he he was he was a Gallican, yeah. Um and other other otherwise was a very solid bishop, solid Catholic. Um, so Gallicanism is is not fringe at this point. The kings loved it, national governments loved it. It you know, that sort of theology lets them control the church inside their borders while still being, you know, at least nominally Catholic.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Now on the other side of the controversy were the ultramontanes, and ultra ultramontane, ultramontanism, um, it means beyond the mountains, um which those mountains just were they're the Alps, the Swiss Alps, right? Like so you know, to the rest of Europe, Italy, and Rome was they were beyond the Alps. So to be ultramontane was to be loyal to Rome. And they argued the opposite of everything uh of what Gallicanism stood for. So they said that the Pope holds universal, immediate, and supreme jurisdiction over the entire church. The Pope's not just a first among equals, you know, he's not just a referee among bishops. Um, so they really saw that the Pope was the visible head of the church with real authority and had that re you know, exercise that real authority over every baptized Catholic on the planet. Um, so why does this matter? Why does this fight, why does this controversy matter in 1869? Uh, well, you know, the secular forces in Europe were tearing down the papal states, the revolutionaries, nationalists, and liberal governments of Italy, France, and Prussia, um, they're all counting on you know, on Gallicanism, basically. They're counting on a church that could be carved up, nationalized, and controlled um by these different nations. They basically envisioned uh a neutered church where every nation had its own little like pseudo-pope, and the man in Rome was just a figurehead. So, Vatican I, part of what Vatican I was called for, was to settle that question forever.

Americanism And Church Politics

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Now we're gonna start getting into Manning and Newman.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

So, yeah. Well, the thing, the interesting thing about Manning and Newman. This is a good question. Uh, do you see pull that up? Yeah, do you see connections between Gallicanism and Americanism as the latter downstream of the former? Well, go ahead. You you jump at that.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Yes and no. Um, Americanism doesn't necessarily say like the American president should control the church or or things of that nature, but it is saying that we should compromise our Catholic faith, our Catholic beliefs, um, in order to basically go along to get along, right? That we should put um you know, um yeah, that we should put our American identity before a Catholic identity. So in that sense, yeah, yeah, it's definitely downstream of Gallicanism, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Yeah, like what's happening in this council is going to actually set up like the big debate in the church for the 20th century. And you're gonna have some so especially in like South America, like because at this time, South American countries are like the they're just starting to develop their huh? Nothing. Did I miss something? No, why? Oh my um, the South American countries are just developing their Catholic identity down there, and down there they're way more ultramontane than they are in Europe. Like Europe is having this revolt against the papacy, but it really kind of does set up the the the battles going forward in the in the in the centuries preceding it. So but between Manning and Newman, what I found really interesting, especially in the conversation we had recently on this show, is Newman is kind of seen as this highly intellectual Catholicism that's in like the universities and stuff like that. And Manning is fighting for a more middle class, lower class educational system, while Manning is fighting for like the the the you know the university system, and it's kind of like pitting this high intellectual Catholicism versus cultural Catholicism in a way. And it's interesting because they're both converts, yeah. They're both English converts, they're both converts set set in in England 10 years after they even allow Catholicism to be legal in England. So it's it's like these two figures are such interesting characters when you get into them.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Yeah, yeah. And uh I'd actually never heard of Manning before uh before you recently started reading him. Me, me. Um, so Newman is the one you always hear about. Newman is, you know, uh obviously um a saint and and now doctor of the church. Um, but Manning, I'm I'm finding really interesting, and I'm gonna have to read what you've read and and read more of him.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

Um yeah, what well what comes out is because most people, especially after the council, people think Newman actually wins it out, right? Especially with this collegiality, but like the things of like collegiality and synodality, like when you take it from what it was originally intended in the early centuries of the church, is nothing like what they're doing now, like even in the slightest bit. No, no, it's not, like not even remotely close to what like collegiality meant in the early centuries of the church. But most people do assume that Newman went out, especially now he's being canonized. Like you probably never see Manning canonized, but Manning is an ultramontanist, like Manning is pushing for papal infallibility, and and and Newman's against it.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Newman wants well, I I think I think there's a lot of misconception around that. There's a nuance to that, right? Yeah, Newman is seen as being against Vatican I, against papal infallibility, but in and we'll get into it uh a little bit deeper, but when Newman reads the final draft uh of of Pastor Eternus, he he accepts it without hesitation, like immediately. Um, I think what would when people think he was against it, what he was against was uh he had a fear that they were gonna go way farther with it than yeah than they actually did. So I think we'll see.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

Yeah, they like you think about like how they actually define papal infallibility. It's like when like it's it's that the pope can settle controversy without convening a council, essentially. Like, if there's something that comes up, the pope can speak from the chair and say, Mary is the Immaculate Conception, and the church needs to accept that, and it he doesn't need to convene a council to to clarify or declare a dogma. It's just saying that Peter in in his unique authority speaks with that authority. Now, this isn't something new that comes up in Vatican I, this is something that was believed throughout the ages, it's it's what leads to conflict between east and west. Like, this is this is not some new thing that they invented Vatican I. It's more like, hey, let's put down on paper and clarify what the church has always believed.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Yep, yep. Yeah. So like when I when I say that Vatican I declares this or that, like it no, it wasn't invented out of thin air in 1870. Um they're just decl, you know, they're they're declaring it to be dogma at that point.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

But yeah, it's the same thing with every single thing the church has always done, right? Even with transubstantiation, even with with everything. The church always like, you know, there's some some there's some something coming up to dispute what the church has always thought, and the church convenes something and either calls a council or the pope will clarify it.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Yep. Okay, so Manning vs. Newman.

Manning And Newman Clash

SPEAKER_01 32:41

So the council opens on uh December 8th, 1869, which is the feast of the Immaculate Conception, and there's somewhere between 700 and 750 bishops um in the transept of St. Peter's fort. Um, so the fight of over papal authority found its two most famous champions in uh, and we already touched on this, but of all places England, which like you said, this is shortly after Catholicism's even uh legalized in England.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

Um, so it's it's it is uh interesting that that the two like Rob did Manning Manning thought the most pressing issue facing the church in England was was alcohol consumption, right? Because Manning is on the ground with um England at that time. I don't know. I I just know he was involved with all all these movements to like get like I I think there was like desperation and in in in the like people were you know the world is like essentially in chaos and people are turning to drinking, and he's on the ground with the pet with the more lower class where Manning is up in these high echelons of society and and Manning's like no no no I'm telling you this is what's going on. Like we need to we need to speak to these people about over consuming alcohol, you know.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Well, I mean, you know, uh like this is the I'm not gonna I don't know. This is the era of things like uh Oliver Twist, you know, like like England is the the cities in England are are dirty, you know, everything's covered in coal dust and smoke and grime. You know, you have uh not only uh men and women but children working in factories, you know. Uh yeah, I would drink that away too.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

You think you think about like during World War II, like they had like a period where the smog got so bad in in the UK, like they couldn't even go outside. People were dying from breathing in the fumes from all these coal factories and things like that. I don't know how early how much earlier on that goes, but yes, the air it was worse in the 1800s than World War II, I'll tell you that. I'm sure. So it's like the era of industrialization, they're coming up with these coal plants and stuff like that, and there's absolutely no regulation on environmental stuff, you know, and it's just like this cloud of crap covering the entire place. So, yeah, you're probably right. People are destitute, people are, you know, you you're you you got away from the aristocracy and things like that. Now you're getting into the modern era where people have, you know, there's a middle class being formed and people are falling behind.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

Yeah. Um, so uh Manning and Newman. So they're both converts from Anglicanism. They're uh um Manning is the Archbishop of Westminster, and he's an aggressive ultramontane. He didn't just think that like papal infallibility was was true. He thought the the need to declare it was urgent. You know, he sees that the church is under siege from rationalism and liberalism. Um, and he thought that that the best course of action was to centralize authority uh into the Pope, and that that was the best way to survive, basically. Um, so he wanted the infallibility uh defined, defined clearly, and defined like right now. Um John Henry Newman, on the other hand, um, you know, he did believe in the doctrine as it ended up being declared. He believed the Pope was infallible, but he he was what they what what were is called an inopportunist. So he thought that defining it at that particular moment in that particular climate and with that particular faction of Ultramontanes in the driver's seat was a disaster waiting to happen. He worried that the Ultramontines would push um push through a definition that was so broad, so sweeping, and so you know, utterly different from how the popes had actually exercised the authority because like he did believe the pope was invalid. He thought the pope had this authority, but he thought they were were gonna push something that was so, like I said, so different from how the popes had usually acted that it would split the church, you know, would completely completely alienate the Orthodox forever.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

He would slam the door on any Anglicans looking at he was he was super concerned with the ecumenism, like because he is a convert and he comes in, he's very worried, like he's very concerned with ecumenism and and like proper humanism, like in the good sense of it, yes. Not not the nonsense ecumanism you see now, like the proper humanism, where he really does want to see the unification of east and west, and he wants to see possibility of you know the Anglican communion reforming its ways and coming back. He's he sees like uh the English coming back into union with Rome on the horizon. And the last thing the English want to hear is about papal authority. Like there's so the English are it's so ingrained in them. Like you even look at a guy like C. S. Lewis, like C. S. Lewis has such a Catholic mind, right? And he's just so adamant, he's a Church of England guy, you know. Like they had this pride about not being papists. The the whole idea of the Roman Catholic Church, we're gonna get into that when we get into the definition of the church, right? Like the idea of the Roman Catholic Church comes from the it was like an English uh, you know, the Romanists, the papist, like that it was an insult meant to Catholics, like oh, the the Romans, and it it it's something they end up.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

It was basically a a way for them to to point uh to declare that Catholics weren't patriotic in a sense, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Yeah, loyal loyal to Rome over their their own over the crown, you know, and that's always been the argument since Henry VIII. It's like Henry the Eighth, think about what he puts those bishops through, like those bishops have to take an oath swearing fealty to him over the Pope and stuff. It's it's a long-running thing. So, yeah, so that's where that's where Newman's concerns are coming from. It's not some liberal thing. He he's looking at it from a proper uh for perspective of humanism.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Yeah, he he's worried that that defining infallibility at this point would confuse confuse the faithful. Um, and he wasn't wrong to worry, and I think we see that with the current strain of ultramontanism. Um, but he was wrong about he was worried, he was worried about the wrong things with the outcome. Like, because like I said, when the final wording came down for uh Pastor Eternus, it was way more moderate than what what um everyone in Manning's ultramontane faction was pushing for. Um and when he when he read the final text, he he accepted it right away without hesitation. Um, so now we get into kind of the a little bit of the history of the two documents themselves.

Dei Filius On Faith And Reason

SPEAKER_01 39:41

Um so and then we'll get into why it ended early, and then we'll actually get jump into this text.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Well, look, there's only two two documents, two documents coming from this council, and then the council gets kind of abruptly stopped. Not ended, like not properly ended, it just gets abruptly stopped. But there's some really good like some really good stuff in those two documents.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

So I'll I'll quickly go through uh a little bit. We'll go through the text of the two documents after all the history, but so the first document comes down uh April 24th of 1870, and it's it's Dei Philius of the Son of God, and it's about faith, reason, revelation. Um, it condemns rationalism, pantheism, materialism, naturalism, basically all the philosophical engines of the modern world. Um, it affirmed that God can be known by reason, it affirms divine revelation is real, affirms that faith and reason um are both gifts from the same creator, and it passed unanimously. Um, and then they turned to the document that everyone had really been waiting for. Um, you know, the one that Manning was pushing for from the beginning, and the one that Newman was begging for them to delay, and that's Pastor Eternus. So Pastor Eternus, um, they gather for the final vote for it on July 18th of 1870. And on July 18th, a thunderstorm breaks over Rome that is so violent that contemporary accounts described the basilica going completely dark in the middle of the reading of the document, no lights coming in through the windows. Lightning strikes the dome of St. Peter's Basilica during the reading of Pastor Eternus. And uh the bishops could barely hear that barely hear them reading it um over the rain and thunder. Now, when the votes finally taken, um like I said at the beginning of this, 700 to 750 bishops were there. Um when the votes finally taken, 533 vote in favor, with two, only two voting against. Um now you'll notice the discrepancy of the math there, right? Yeah. That's because um now I don't know how many bishops were there when Pastor Eternus was begun, but the day before the final vote, 60 bishops, most of them being German, Austrian, French, and a few Americans, l left the city. Um because they would they they didn't want to vote against it, but they couldn't support it.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

Um they did so they wanted to be at abstentions, basically.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

Basically, basically, yeah. Um so but even if all 60 have voted against it, you'd have 533 versus about 62. Um but so so Pastor Eternus passes, and that's the that's the document that you know says the Popez full supreme.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

We need your because when we get into Pastor Eternus, man, it's like I because the the set of a contest will use Vatican One to hit you over the head like with a club, and it's like dude, I think it's I think it's a club against them. Yes, that's my point. Like, it is so hard to square the sede position with Vatican One, which is I just find it funny because the Sede's are the ones who usually look because I've really never read Pastor Returnus before we before we decided to get in. It was a couple of weeks before we started the series where I started understanding like um uh just the uh the perpetuity of this of the petrine office, things like that, that are just man, you got I don't know how you square that, and even some of the stuff Taylor's been bringing up, right? Like Taylor's been bringing some stuff on on X bringing up some good arguments, yeah. Um go ahead, I didn't mean to cut you off.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

So, yeah, so Pastor Ternus, um, and we'll get into it deeper, but it says the Pope has full supreme immediate immediate jurisdiction over the church, and that when he speaks ex catheter, in other words, in his office as universal pastor, on matter, face, or moral, binding the whole church, he's preserved from error. So, you know. What the definition doesn't say is that it doesn't say the Pope's impeccable or that every word out of his mouth is infallible. It doesn't say that his personal opinions, his interviews, his off-the-cuff comments, you know, it doesn't say that any of those are protected. So the conditions are very very narrow and specific. And that can kind of be seen as Newman's victory inside of Manning's victory of having the infallibility declared. So in the end, they kind of do both um win. Gallicanism at this point is dead. The question of where authority lives in the church is is answered. So at this point, the Pope's never been more powerful in terms of like dogma and doctrine.

Pastor Aeternus Passes In Thunder

SPEAKER_01 44:49

But then at that exact same point, or actually the day after, France declares war on Prussia. And this war had been brewing for months, and it's actually the the war really is engineered uh by Otto von Bismarck, who's the Prussian chancellor. Um and he's actually a really interesting guy to study. He he's like the the stereotypical manipulative politician, but in like uh I don't know, he he he manipulates this whole war. He actually uh gets France to declare war um using what uh what is called the Ems dispatch. Um he basically takes uh um the the the German um uh the the Prussian king, the Prussian Emperor, um sends him uh sends him a dispatch telling him of how a French uh diplomat comes up to him um and and asks him something and how he responds. And bit Bismarck edits edit edits it down to make it look like a very short um kind of angry interaction on both sides, and that's what he publishes to to the the press. So you have all the Prussians um wanting war because they think the French diplomat uh snubbed their king. You have the French you have the French wanting war because you know the the Prussian king uh snubs the diplomat, the French diplomat, when really it wasn't like that at all. Yeah, but it gets France to declare war on Prussia. Um, so it baits Napoleon III into this conflict, and it's it's a trap. Uh Prussia was ready. Prussia um they they were experts in uh in planning and in logistics and in like troop transportation via railway railways and things like this. They were able to to mobilize their entire army before France was was able to hardly get anyone gathered. So even though France had better um better rifles, uh better field guns, um, things like that.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

Like they're they're they're the better equipped army.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Right. They they have they have uh better technology in many cases. They had uh they had more troops, and actually they had better trained troops, whereas Prussia was dealing mostly with conscripts still. Uh Prussia was able to get all their forces to battle way quicker than um than France. So uh it it's it's largely considered one of the most catastrophic and unexpected military collapses in European history. Um so that so the war is declared on July 19th, um, but uh it's basically over by September 1st. So on September 1st at the Battle of Sedan, the Prussian army encircles Napoleon III, um, and he surrenders and is captured uh by by Prussia. And uh within 48 hours, the the second French Empire has collapsed.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

Um this is interesting because I I never knew I never knew how the whole like so this this isn't this is this is how Napoleon is defeated?

SPEAKER_01 48:05

Napoleon the third.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

Oh, Napoleon the third, okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Yeah, not Napoleon, but Napoleon the Third is he's the same Napoleon that um he he's involved with all the revolutions of 1848.

SPEAKER_03 48:17

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

So he's been in power quite a quite a bit at this point. Um, but he is like kind of the last of the the Bonaparte um dynasty, if you if you will, yeah. Yeah, um, so this quick collapse means one thing for pious in in Rome. The French garrison that had been protecting Rome from the Kingdom of Italy gets recalled back to France, right? Um, so for the first time in 20 years, the Pope has no army uh protecting the remnants of the Papal States. So the Kingdom of Italy, which had been waiting for this, uh moved within weeks. So uh the um the the war between France and Prussia is over September 1st. Um on September 20th, Italian troops breached the Aurelian walls at a place called Porta Pia. There was some resistance, but it was mostly symbolic. Casualties were minimal. Um, but by nightfall of the 20th, the Italian flag is flying over uh the Pope's palace, flying over Rome. Um for the first time since 756.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

When does the Swiss Guard become the Papal Guard?

SPEAKER_01 49:34

Uh that that's more in the 1500s.

SPEAKER_02 49:37

So but they're more just like a symbolic role. Well but they're not like the like the like the French have to guard the papacy, right? So the Swiss Guard is what? Just like uh an honorary thing.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

Well, no, the the but there's only a few hundred of them, and they're meant to protect the person of the Pope himself.

SPEAKER_02 49:54

Person of the Pope, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

So Pius had no military forces outside of his personal guard, no.

SPEAKER_02 50:02

Yeah, they're like the um uh uh Secret Service. Secret Service, yeah. Yeah, like the papal secret service, don't you? Yeah, dude, I you know what it is, it's like I like I don't know anything. Uh if we weren't doing the series, like I don't, you know, I I never like studied this period in history, so it's you you're learning we're learning about these things as we go, so it's super interesting, man.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

Yeah, um yeah, the Swiss guard really gained prominence in um oh, I think it's 1527, um, when Rome is attacked by Charles V, the Holy Roman Emperor. The Holy Roman Emperor, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:44

And and um which is when the King Henry VIII thing is going on, right? Like that's that whole period. While while so, like the look, we'd love to believe that the Pope was just standing on on moral grounds of why why Henry could not divorce Catherine of Aragon. But the truth of the matter is, if he wasn't being held captive by Charles V, who was her cousin or her uncle, one of the two, like wasn't held captive because this the attack by Charles the Fifth is is years after, like a few years after.

SPEAKER_01 51:18

But I mean, yeah, the worry was that he didn't want to piss off Charles V. Charles V, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:25

And it's like he because the Pope had granted annulments, you know, like it was it was something only the Pope could do during this period, is the Pope could grant an annulment. And you think to yourself, you're like, Man, if he would have just granted that annulment, we would have never lost England and stuff. But no, there was so much of that's why we really do need to, we do need to go back. I we we definitely need to go back. We need to jump into the two.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

I think we need to finish off like this in the Yeah, yeah. We're gonna finish this up to the end. Yeah, I think we need to continue church history in general.

SPEAKER_02 51:57

I want to do church history. I want to stick with the I'm gonna stick with this history series, man. Like, I think we should just once a week stick with it. And um, maybe we will jump to the reformation after this this era is done, and then uh, and then I want to do early church stuff, man. I want to go, I want to go back and study Julian the apostate when he tries to rebuild the temple, and maybe we'll do the thing, like you said, there's not much we're not gonna have people encyclicals to read. We're not people bulls, there might be stuff like that during during that period, but we're not gonna have this segment. Like, we just did 50 minutes on history, but Rob, we only need to do a history segment. Like, we're about now we're about to jump in before we do Pastor Eternist, though, Rob, I think we should do the decrees. Well, so which one do you want to handle first?

SPEAKER_01 52:49

Um, I mean, I was just gonna go through the documents like we've been doing with the encyclicals. Oh, thank you all.

SPEAKER_02 53:00

Okay, so but the even in the introduction to the decrees, though. Um, yeah, for sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 53:06

Um, but but before we do that, just to finish wrap this

Rome Falls And Vatican I Suspends

SPEAKER_01 53:10

up, yeah. So uh September 20th, uh Rome's captured. Pius refuses to surrender, he calls himself the prisoner of the Vatican. Um every pope after him for 59 years would be a prisoner of the Vatican, basically. October 20th, 1870, he issues a bull uh post quam dia munere, which indefinitely suspends Vatican I. Uh it's never reconvened. The remaining schemata, which includes a planned document on the role of bishops, which would have potentially balanced the definition of papal authority, those the remaining schemata were never voted upon. The council is only formally closed, uh de jure in 1960 by John the 23rd. By John the 23rd, right before Vatican II.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

Yeah. So on like the eve of the council.

Tip Jar And Why It Matters

SPEAKER_02 54:01

Um to this, real quick, um, Rob also set up uh donate button on the website because look, we have what do we have, 300 people in here right now, 225 people in here right now.

SPEAKER_01 54:11

Like half of what we're like, come on.

SPEAKER_02 54:14

These show look the the the those of you who are watching this, like you guys are you guys are hardcore and you want to actually learn some stuff. These shows don't do that well. So if you guys want to help, because I mean we're we're spending um we're spending Rob is doing a lot of freaking work on these. He sends me um a historical summary to read, he sends me the documents, and then I try a seven-page script basically for this. Yeah, and then I I try to do as much outside research to try to have little tidbits to add into Rob. I mean, Rob's giving the bulk of the show here, and then I try to just have some tidbits of information that might be interesting and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 54:52

The um I guess before we close out, after we do these, we'll we'll go through the So what Anthony's trying to say is if you can donate, uh, and it's not really a donation, right? We're not a nonprofit, but if you can tip us a little, yeah, yeah. It's a tip go to uh avoidingbabylon.com and there on the front page there'll be an area where you can tip us or uh scan the QR code in the corner right now.

SPEAKER_02 55:18

Yeah. So okay, so like right from the introduction of the decrees, um you you see um let me pull it up here. Uh whether we're talking about trend, I should have freaking highlighted on the right.

SPEAKER_01 55:38

Let me just get my device on. Uh so the actual like the introduction here.

SPEAKER_02 55:54

Yeah, the introduction, like they were they were talking about Trent and calling Trent like this the holy the holy council of Trent.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

They were like, I'm trying to Well, are you you're not talking about the intro like the introduction at the very top? You're talking about you're talking about the first session?

SPEAKER_02 56:12

Yeah, I think it's at the first session. Let me see. Okay, so yeah, here it is. Okay, now now this redemptive providence appears very clearly in unnumbered benefits, but most especially it is manifested in the advantages which have been secured for the Christian world by ecumenical councils, among which the council of Trent requires special mention, celebrated though it was in evil days. Like there's there's so much about Trent, and that's that's session three, but um I was gonna say you you I have a lot highlighted in the two sessions before go go all right. I have my my main highlighting is in set uh session two and session three.

SPEAKER_01 56:53

Okay, well, so I I I highlighted just the beginning decree of opening of the council, just from the way it um the way it speaks, like like why they're doing this, and he and it says, um uh pious uh bishop, servant of the servants of God, with the approval of the sacred council for the everlasting record, most reverend fathers, is it your pleasure that to praise and gl uh to the praise and glory of the holy and undivided trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, for the increase and exaltation of the holy of the Catholic faith and religion, for the uprooting of current errors, for the reformation of the clergy and the Christian people, and for the common peace and conquered of all, the holy ecumenical Vatican Council should be open and be declared to have been opened. They all reply, yes. I mean, just I I haven't read like of the decrees of Vatican II. Like I've read Lumen Gentium and and and um Nastriotate, but like I haven't read the opening, but I I imagine the opening of Vatican II isn't like that.

SPEAKER_02 57:59

No, definitely not, it's just such a different time period, man. It's so different. It's like um man,

Trent Echoes In Vatican I Text

SPEAKER_02 58:10

all right. So I mean, I have stuff in session two. Do you have anything in session one that you want to get to?

SPEAKER_01 58:14

Uh nothing else in session one.

SPEAKER_02 58:17

All right, so session two, um, there's there's a bunch of stuff that all of us would obviously know. Um, and you like obviously basically it kind of goes through the creed, right? But then in article nine, I guess it would be article nine or something. It's like, I firmly hold that purgatory exists, and that souls are detained there are helped by uh and that's and the souls detained there are helped by the suffrages of the faithful. Likewise that the saints reigning with Christ are to be honored and prayed to, and that they offer prayers to God on our behalf, and that their relics should be venerated. I resolutely assert that images of Christ, the ever Virgin Mary, mother of God, and likewise those of other saints are to be kept and retained, and that due honor and reverence is to be shown for them. I affirm that the power of indulgences was left by Christ in the church, and that their use is eminently beneficial to the Christian people. First off, the the um sacred images, we are so desensitized to sacred images, especially you go to a funeral, they hand you a holy card, you go everywhere you go, there's just this like barrage of sacred images. But before the printing press, especially, um, sacred images were something that were sacred, right? And I mean, I've had I've had holy cards from funerals that you know they kind of just get thrown in a desk drawer or something like that. Like, we're not supposed to treat sacred images like they're just any image, and there's even ways to dispose of sacred things if you if you if you don't have uh use for them anymore, you're not supposed to just throw sacred images in the garbage. And our desensitization to sacred images has led to the profanation of pornographic image, right? Like like being desensitized to the sacred has led to the profane and and people thinking nothing of images. And yeah, I just I did even just like I affirm the power of indulgences was left by Christ in the church, and the church today treats indulgences kind of like oh, this goofy thing, like all right, go, you know, we'll give you an indulgence if you do this thing. But indulgences were a very serious thing, and especially because they were so contested in the Reformation, yeah. Um, in session three, I had some.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:34

I don't know if you want to so I actually have the rest of session two highlighted, it's not too much. It says so it's starting at 13. I acknowledge the holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Yes, I should have had that highlighted the mother and mistress of all the churches. I think that's um I mean those of us who are uh Latin Catholics, I think we kind of take that uh for granted. Um but especially the Eastern churches, right? That I think they almost pride themselves on not being Roman, but no, they are Roman. They are Roman, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:11

Especially, especially look the clip we played at the beginning of the show that the the empire moves to the east, right? Like Constantine moves the empire to Constantinople, that's why it's called Constantinople. Constantine moves it to the east, so even the eastern churches are Roman, right? So even without that, they are all under Rome, yeah. Yeah, like there, but but there's something about that Danielic image of the two legs being east and west. And Dr. Alan Femester gets into that book and the iron scepter of the son of man. So if you guys ever somebody was asking about good books to read, it's not really about this time period, but the Iron Scepter of the Son of Man by Dr. Alan Femister is a phenomenal book. If you want to understand it's so good, man, there's so much in that. But this decree right here, right? I acknowledge the holy Catholic, apostolic, and Roman Church. So the the phrase apostolic was added in because there's there's this insult from the English specifically about oh, the Roman church, the Roman church that we were talking about earlier. But there's something so important about understanding we are the Roman church, but also the apostolic church, because the Anglican communion is claiming that they're really the Roman church because they have it's that uh the the branch theory that they have or whatever, right? And that's what Calvin Robinson was trying to claim his apostolic ministry was from this branch theory and stuff like that. I don't want to knock Calvin Robinson or anything, I'm just saying that's you know, that's it's an improper way to see it, but it this is the holy Catholic, apostolic, and Roman Church.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:53

Um that are that are Roman communists.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:57

Um, but not just that, Rob, the church and mother and mistress of all the churches actually because look, the big debate that I've been seeing in the last couple of days, especially from guys like Stephen Cox and others against what Taylor Marshall was saying, because look, the Sede position is essentially that Vatican II instituted a new religion. And Stephen Cox said, How can it not be a new because I said it's I said, Look, there oh man, I actually have to find the tweet because I I know what I I know what when you're I commented on it. Yeah, you did. And I said, um uh okay, I actually found it. Okay. Uh all right, so Stephen Cox said the back cover of Taylor Marshall's book, Infiltration, in 2019, verse what the what he said on X Today, and uh it says in the mid-19th century, Clint this is Taylor's book, in the mid-19th century, clandestine societies populated modernists and Marxists, populated by modernists and Marxists, hatched a plan to subvert the church from within, their goal to change her doctrine, her liturgy, her mission. And then uh Stephen said, Vatican II does not teach a new religion. I said, they clearly did hatch a plot to subvert the church, they succeeded in many areas. This does not mean they succeeded in starting a new religion, nor does it mean the see of Peter is vacant or occupied by an anti-pope. And then Stephen said, How can the same religion have a different ecclesiology? Because ecclesiology is not the religion, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

And the the church before the most two ecclesiologies before Vatican I Gallica. Well, this is what I'm saying, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:34

So the church and mother and mistress of all the churches kind of insinuates that like the Vatican II kind of played on that where it says the church of Christ subsists in the Roman Catholic Church, right? Like, like Vatican I is kind of saying that, right? The church, the Holy Roman Catholic Apostolic Church is the mother and mistress of all churches, and then Vatican II is saying the Church of Christ subsists in the Roman Catholic Church. I mean, and I'm not saying it's the same thing, and I know the ecclesiology is definitely changed after Vatican II, but I also do not think that constitutes a new religion. Agreed. By any church with the imagination. And I've had I've had interactions with uh American Reform. He's definitely watching. He he watches these shows.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

Um yeah, he he liked the last one a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:22

Yeah, no, and I and I love him. I want to actually have a conversation. Maybe I'll have him on with Catholic State or something, but um he he was he was saying how religious liberty, I think it was religious liberty, I'm pretty sure. Uh, because I said, what errors does does the council teach that could lead you to hell? And he pointed out religious liberty. And I said, No, believing in religious liberty will not lead you to hell. Religious liberty will lead to the downfall of your nation, though.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:49

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:50

Like, like it could lead to a a a poor, a really bad understanding of Christ the king, like understanding uh The social kingship of Christ and that could lead to the downfall of your nation. But if you personally believe in religious liberty, you're not going to hell. It's not a mortal sin to believe in religious liberty. So, no, the church has not taught anything from the council or beyond that you are required to believe that will not that will lead you to hell. Like I'm sorry, you will not convince me that the church has taught something in Vatican II that will lead you to hell.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:24

I think plus Vatican II isn't saying that you have to believe the Mormons or you know, the Mormons have a right to have a temple in Salt Lake City or something.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:33

No, they're they're yeah, they're seeing religious liberty in an American context, to be honest, and and they're seeing it in, you know, well, everybody should just, you know, God they're they're seeing it from the position of God doesn't force himself on you, and every person has to have the freedom of to choose, which is in in a respect true, right? Like we don't force conversions, we don't force baptism. Every person has the right to this is the this is what hell is hell is you reject God. So it's a it's a conversation I'd be willing to have with those guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:06

And and even if um, I mean there there is a reason why Lefebvre was able to sign the documents to yeah, to uh vote on and accept and sign to sign the document. The problem there there are problems with the documents, but it it it's more in that the church since then, in in the hierarchy of the church, especially, hasn't used them to to teach what the church has normally taught. Correct. But like you said, that that doesn't mean that those documents create a new religion. It means we've had a lot of terrible bishops, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:46

Yeah, look, I think I mean, especially going through this series, you're seeing the you're seeing the evil ideologies that are popping up, and they're working their way into the church. And the Pope and the bishops, the good bishops of this time are doing everything they can to fight these forces that are without that are that are outside the church. But as Rob has showed the past two past three episodes, the last two, we had a very specific priest who was inside the church pushing these things, right? And the things that he's pushing then are eventually like you're looking at Bishop Barron, who is now talking to Dave Rubin. And Baron's now seen as a conservative bishop, as a conservative bishop. Like this is how this is how far this ideology is.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:29

Whereas Lamonet probably would have been crapping himself that a bishop was talking with a homosexual.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:37

Like we wish for a Lamine right now, right? Like that guy, that guy would be a rad trad. Are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:44

Um, um I did have I did have the next part highlighted, especially because you had mentioned Trent. So, right after uh it says mother and mistress of all churches, it says, likewise, all other all other things which has been transmitted, defined, and declared by the sacred canons and the ecumenical councils, especially the sacred Trent, I accept unhesitatingly and profess in the same way. Uh, of course, my Kindle just went to sleep.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:11

Whatever is to the contrary, and whatever heresies have been condemned, rejected, anathematized by the church. I too condemn, reject, and anathematize. But like Trent is really seen as like the pinnacle of Catholicism, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:28

They don't want to say like a super council, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:31

Because it is it's it's like the pinnacle of the Catholic faith when you get to Trent, right? Trent hammers out justification and such clarity, and all of the Protestant heresies that popped up, Trent really does find they they they they clarify every single one and they give everybody the tools, the apologetic tools to combat the Protestant heresies, which then leads to um uh what's his name? Uh oh man, uh uh Saint uh oh man, what the heck? Who writes against Protestantism so well?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:13

Well, you have Francis de Sales.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:15

Francis de Sales, like Saint Francis de Sales is is coming right in that period, and you have like you have the apologetic the apologetic tools necessary to combat the Protestant errors, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:27

Right, which I mean up until the Enlightenment, um, the church, the the so-called Counter-Reformation, which began before the actual Reformation, but the church um using Trent, using orders like uh like the Jesuits, Jesuits, yeah, they'd almost converted all of Europe back to Catholicism.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:47

Yeah, they definitely they stopped the Protestant Reformation in its tracks because it was it was progressing everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:53

Yeah, uh France at one point had you know half a million uh uh I'm gonna butcher the pronunciation, uh, Huguenots, yeah, Huguenots, whatever you want to call them.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:03

It was Huguenots, but yeah, it's the Huguenots too.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:05

But you know, by by before the Enlightenment begins, they have a couple thousand at most.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:12

Yeah, you know, yeah, they're fighting Jansenism during this time and everything. It's kind of it's kind of crazy going what's going on in France, like that, especially uh when you're coming up to like the French Revolution and stuff. There's a whole bunch of crazy stuff happening over in France.

Vatican II Arguments And Religious Liberty

SPEAKER_02 1:11:28

So um in uh in session three, the dogmatic constitution on the Catholic faith, um pious bishop servant of the servants of God with approval of the sacred council for an everlasting record. So the son of God, redeemer of the Deus Philius. Just oh, okay, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:45

Well, yeah, so um, yeah, it its title is Dogumatic Constitution of Catholic faith, but it takes its it's takes its well other title from Son of the Son of God, so Deius Philius.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:59

So the Son of God, Redeemer of the human race, our Lord Jesus Christ, promised when about when about to return to his heavenly father that he would be with his church militant upon earth all days, even to the end of the world. Hence, never at any time has he ceased to stand by his beloved bride, assisting her when she teaches, blessing her in her labors, and bringing her help when she is in danger. Now, this redemptive providence appears very clearly in unnumbered benefits, but most especially is it manifested in the advantages which have been secured for the Christian world by ecumenical councils, among which the Council of Trent requires special mention. Celebrated through it was uh celebrated though it was in evil days.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:41

Um the the that is something very important, right? That Christ promises to be with his church until the end of days, like even in the tumultuous time we are in right now. We like I've talked about this before about the importance of Eucharistic miracles, even in the novus order, right? Because Eucharistic miracles tend to happen when there's an issue of unbelief, right? Like they tend to happen when a priest maybe doubts whether his consecration is is really transforming the body and blood transforming it into the body and blood of Christ. I think that Eucharistic miracles in the Novus Ordo are for trads who are questioning the craziness in the church right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:32

That you can you can still rest with me, me too, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:36

Like you can rest with confidence that Christ is still truly present with his church in the current priesthood, in the current, in the current liturgy, with all the changes that came from the council. We still have Eucharistic miracles, you still have Saint Wilhelmina, whose incorruptible body. She was she was you know a novusordo uh nun. Like you you still have Christ truly present with his church because he promised us the Holy Spirit will be with us until the end. So, like the the that's another thing that this this whole council really just I mean, I don't I don't the sedes have some really good like theories and theses and things like that, but that's all they are theories and things that it's they're trying to make sense of the of the crisis as well. I just I can't go along with with where they go with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:27

And we'll get um later in in the documents we'll it talks especially about um about miracles, so we'll I'll make sure to bring that up. Um, do you have anything highlighted before number five here in Dave's feelings? I have all of five highlighted, so I have uh four through at least ten all highlighted, but maybe as well just go through it.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:50

Uh, I mean, we're at an hour of 15 already, though.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:53

Yeah, let's let's do five because of Trent. Um, so yeah, you you say five.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:59

Okay, everybody knows that those heresies condemned by the fathers of Trent, like I'm telling you, Trent is so important. Yes, those heresies condemned by the fathers of Trent, which rejected the divine magisterium of the church and allowed religious questions to be a matter for the judgment of each individual, have gradually collapsed into a multiplicity of sects, either at variance or in agreement with one another. And by this means, a good many people have had all faith in Christ destroyed. Even uh, indeed, even the Holy Bible itself, which they at one time claimed to be the sole source and judge uh and judge of the Christian faith, is no longer held to even be divine, but they begin to assimilate it to the inventions of myth.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:40

Man, that they just that those two paragraphs destroyed.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:43

Right there, just talking about like this is why Protestantism has devolved into 40,000 different sets. You guys believe that only the Bible was to be the sole source of faith, and yet even but all that did was leave it to you guys to believe it was myth, and and and to leave it to the individuals, kind of like all of the things, all that's what's crazy. Like, all of this stuff that we've been talking about these past two episodes, every single one of these things find their origin in the Protestant Reformation, every single one of them. There's not a single one that doesn't start with Luther going, Here I stand, whatever the hell he says over there. I can go no more, or whatever, and nine nailing his 95 thesis to the wall. It's all him just going, I reject your authority. And that's it's it's all it comes down to. Um, thereupon there came into being and spread far and wide throughout the world that doctrine of rationalism and naturalism, utterly opposed to the Christian religion, since this is of supernatural origin, which spares no effort to bring it about that Christ, who alone is our Lord and Savior, is shut out from the minds of people and the moral life of nations. This is, I mean, getting to the social kingship of Christ. Thus, they would establish what they call the rule of simple reason or nature, the abandonment and rejection of the Christian religion and the denial of God and his Christ has plunged the minds of many into the abyss of pantheism, materialism, and atheism. And the consequence is that they strive to destroy rational nature itself, to deny any criterion of what is right and just, and to overthrow the very foundations of human society. Everything we're seeing in our world today comes down to this. Like, even the stuff with AI, none of them even consider is this good for humanity? Is this good? The things they're playing with in biology right now, playing around with genetics and all these different things. None of them recognize Christ as king, none of them think they have to submit themselves to the social kingship of Christ, even surrogacy, surrogacy isn't about it's witchcraft for the child, it's it's witchcraft. Yeah, it's witchcraft. I'm I'm sorry, I didn't mean to talk over you.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:52

I was just saying like surrogacy, the the the bringing about of a child through a natural means isn't about what's best for the child, it's about what what do I want?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:03

Yeah, it's it turns a child into a commodity, it's something well oh man, dude. I went down a rabbit hole today. On whatever, we'll do that on the other side. Um, uh, with this impiety spreading in every direction, it has come about, alas, that many, even among the children of the Catholic Church, have strayed from the path of genuine piety. And as the truth was gradually diluted in them, their Catholic sensibility was weakened, led away by diverse and strange teachings and confusing nature and grace, human knowledge and the divine faith. Man, this whole council, like I we gotta get to past returnus, though, Rob.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:41

I know. Um we have to. Hold on. Let me see here.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:47

Like, there's so much we could we could do a whole show just going through this.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:51

Yeah, we could. Um I just want to see if there's anything really good left here in Deus Philius I want to do. Um, so hold on, yeah, there's a couple things, but um so at the end of chapter two in Deus Philius and number eight, it says, uh, since the decree on the interpretation of holy scripture, profitably made by the Council of Trent, with the intention of constraining rash speculation, has been wrongly interpreted by some, we renew that decree and declare its meaning to be as follows that in matters of faith and morals belonging as they do to the establishing of Christian doctrine, that meaning of holy scripture must be held to be true or must be held to be the true one which Holy Mother Church held and holds, since it is her right to judge of the true meaning interpretation of holy scripture. In consequence, it is not permissible for anyone to interpret holy scripture in a sense contrary to this, or indeed against the unanimous consent of the fathers.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:08

Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:09

We we gotta get the pastor's heart.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:11

Hold on, hold on, hold on. In chapter three, there's something about miracles. Hold on.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:15

Oh, okay, okay, fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:17

So uh number four uh in chapter three. In order that the submission of our faith should be in accordance with reason, it was God's will that there should be linked to the internal assistance of the Holy Spirit, external indications of his revelation, that is to that is to say, divine acts, and first and foremost, miracles and prophecies, which clearly demonstrating as they do the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God are the most certain signs of revelation and are suited to the understanding of all.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:49

That's an important thing to understand. So if Martin Luther was correct, grand miracles would have accompanied him. If set of a contest were correct, yes, grand miracles would accompany them. So, yes, there would be Eucharistic miracles, and they'll say, Well, no, there's no lack of faith, but there is on my part, I I lack faith in it. So to get someone like me to go because the thing that is keeping me united to the bishop of Rome and the bishops, even though I see that some of the wicked things they're doing, is the miracles that accompany them because God always does provide proof of his of his existence, and miracles have always accompanied the church.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:33

I mean, as as much as I reg on uh Carlo Cutis, the novus ordo is able to produce a 16-year-old that has a couple of miracles attributed to him. Why can't the sedes? Unless, of course, they have nothing to do with the holy Catholic Church.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:47

Well, I say all the time, like like I don't if you want to produce if you want to prove set of contism to me, show me your saints. Like that is yeah, show me your saints, and I don't even mean like some great miracles and stuff, like show me the holy, show me the holy ones, like I and I'll and I'll see you.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:04

And later, I forget if it's in Deus Filius or Pastor Eternus, but it talks about indications of the church, and uh, I'll tell you right now, I the set is I know meet none of them, so we'll get to that, but

Miracles Unity And Credibility Claims

SPEAKER_01 1:22:17

so all right, so now now Pastor Eternus. Actually, it isn't Deus Fulius, hold on. I I know, I know we need to get to Pastor Eternus, but number 12. The church herself, by of re um by of reason, by or I'm sorry, the church herself, by reason of her astonishing propagation, her outstanding holiness, and her inexhaustible fertility and every kind of goodness, by her Catholic unity and her unconquerable stability, is a kind of great and perpetual motive of credibility and the incontrable controvertible evidence of her own divine mission. So, in other words, to have incontrovertible evidence of your own divine mission, you need propagation, holiness, goodness, unity, stability. I don't think the CEDEs have any of those.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:12

Any of that. No, and look, it goes, and that kind of goes to that quote. It's like uh any institution run by such imbecilic whatever, it can never, it can never last 2,000 years. Like that in itself, that it's run by such imbecilic buffoons and wicked men, and the thing still standing after 2,000 years, that in itself is an apologetic. Like that is in itself a miracle and and a and a and a proof of the reality of divine assistance, even especially since all the craziness since the council.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:48

Um, yeah, um, I think that everything is.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:51

No, no, not only do they not have unity and stability, that it's an like the what's crazy is they'll talk about the changing of the ecclesiology of Vatican II, and it's like, what is the setting ecclesiology? Like, do you know how it's depends on which setting you talk about? Dude, dude, this the setting ecclesiology is oh, I'm home by myself, there's no bishops left. Like, what are you talking about? There's no like some of them don't even believe anybody has valid orders, and part of Pastor Eternist kind of actually addresses that, if I remember right. Yeah, we're gonna all right. We have to get to this. So yeah, all right, Pastor Eternist.

Perpetual Successors And Sede Critique

SPEAKER_02 1:24:23

Now, look, on on the all right, so chapter one is the on the institution of and of of the apostolic primacy of Peter. We all understand that one. Um, but chapter two on the permanence of the primacy of blessed Peter in the Roman pontiffs. Okay, this is an important one. That which our Lord Jesus Christ, the Prince of Shepherds and Great Shepherd of the Sheep, established in the Blessed Apostle Peter for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the church, must of necessity remain forever. By Christ's authority in the church, which founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:02

Wait, we're okay. Yep, I see where you're at. Yeah, how do you get around that? I said I I wrote in in the in my notes here that I mean that's opposed to all the like the home aloneers. Yeah, that there should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:20

Yeah, pastors and shepherds. Okay, so for no one can be in doubt, indeed, it was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and forever he lives and presides and exercises judgment in his successors, the bishops of the Holy Roman See, which he founded and consecrated with his blood. Therefore, whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself the primacy of Peter over the whole church. So that so what the truth has ordained or has ordained stands firm and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted and does not abandon that guidance of the church which he once received. For this reason, it has always been necessary for every church, that is to say, the faithful throughout the world, to be in agreement with the Roman Church because of its preeminent authority, in consequence of being joined as members to the head with that sea from which the rights of sacred communion flow to all, they will grow together into the structure of a single body. Look, the thing is where are you right now? Uh I mean, I'm reading Pastor Eternus off the uh uh Vatican website.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:44

Okay, but what part?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:46

Uh chapter that was chapter two, paragraph four. Okay, perfect. Um look, this is um uh I just lost my my my train of thought. Um shoot. Sorry. It's okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:07

Uh I mean so so with within that within chapter two there, I mean it says blessed Peter Blessed Peter perseveres in the rock like strength he was granted granted and does not abandon that guidance of the church which he once received. I mean, how how do Set is how does how do Setes not dishonor Saint Peter?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:30

Yeah, and right this is where I was they're claiming he no longer so okay, so there are abandoned there man, I I do you know what it is? There's a few different set a positions, so I don't want to just kind of lump them all together.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:44

Right?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:44

Yeah, there's like there's a set a position where it holds that like Leo is the I don't know, like he holds you wanna know what it's quite it's kind of wild, it's kind of like like Benedict trying to divide it's it's kind of like this it's like benedict trying to divide the ministerium from the musterium like whatever like that's actually how some sede see it it's like well he holds like he oh he holds the office of peter but not the not the ministry of peter that's actually it's kind of wild like that is the sede position that the way benedict saw it like Benedict's Benedict kind of implied that there was a ministry of peter and an office of peter and he tried to separate the two and that's kind of one of the sede positions like but it's all conspiracy stuff and I can't you know I just can't get on board with it but this is also the reason Saint Catherine of Siena like people always bring up how Saint Catherine went up against the Pope it's like she went up against the Pope during the Avignon papacy papacy and she did it in private letters for she did it in private letters but it's it's also because she sees the bishop of Rome leaving the Roman see as a major problem right and this is what Cardinal Manning is getting at also and Cardinal Manning's saying if the bishop of Rome leaves the Roman see and there's no there's no if the bishop of Rome is not in this in the city of Rome that is what will give rise to the antichrist he Manning is not saying there will be no pope he's saying if the bishop of Rome is is removed from Rome that is what will give rise to the antichrist and that's that's kind of Cardinal Manning's whole thesis in the present crisis of the Holy See which I still think like while you're on this trip if you're sitting you know sitting pool sock one day or something you could get that down in like two three hours.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:35

So okay like all the other stuff in past returns is kind of like did you read number five there of chapter two um therefore if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the Lord himself that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole church or that the Roman Pontus is not the successor of Blessed Peter in this primacy let him be anathema. Like yes the number of times that that Pastor Turnus says permanent permanent perpetual like I I I know that I know sets will claim like well it's just a it's just a a long set of a conte period or you know uh like that an an uh anathema doesn't say that you know it doesn't apply during like a the set of a cante of a normal pope this is just you know there's nothing saying a set of a cante can't be this long but it's like after a certain time the nature of a set of a cante period does change with time right like a 70 year set of a conte period is not the same as the two year nine month longest set of a conte period on record just by its very nature.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:45

Taylor Marshall pointed out like yeah yeah like it's it at that point you we're almost at two generations two generations and it and they're not just saying the chair of Peter is vacant their claim is that all ordinate like they change the look here's the thing their claim is that all ordinations since that council are invalid like they change the formulation or even if that's not then since yeah since the novus order. Yes like the novus order they change the formulation now here's the thing the church has the authority to change the formula the formula has not it's not like up until like if you go to the second third century now look I understand that is um what do they call that antiquating or something like that whatever it's like antiquarian like I antiquarianism like they they they they will claim like oh we're receiving in the hymn because that's what they did in the early centuries of the church the thing is they actually did do that in the early centuries of the church it was before the church some places yeah I'm just saying like that was before the church like started to deeply understand like what what they were doing like the the the things the church develops over time they did for a reason so but the church still does have the authority to change the disciplines and the formulations of things that's what like part of what Trent is doing is saying okay this is valid in the mass this isn't valid in the mass like the church and especially under the chair of Peter they have the authority to change the formulation so yeah we may not like that they change the way the sacraments are performed but the church does have the authority to change those things and I do wish they still did the uh the exorcisms when they do baptism and I still like I don't know there's no reason I drive four hours for that yeah and I do wish that the church still did those things but the fact that they changed those things does not mean those things are invalid at this point. Yeah um yeah now look this is the thing is I because I there were years where we were doing this show especially early on in the show where there was like this like oh don't talk to the side of a contest man they'll they'll rope you into a corner but like the more I study these arguments like I'm watching I'm watching Stephen Cox and I'm watching these guys and I'm watching their arguments their arguments aren't convincing and I like these guys this isn't a knock to Stephen Cox isn't it but I know you don't but I do it's not a knock to these guys like I I I like Kevin Davis I like Mario I like all these guys I think we're all dealing with a crisis and I think they're coming to a different conclusion than me but I listen to the arguments and I don't find them convincing and it's not because I haven't studied them like I'm I'm watching them argue the I'm watching them argue with Taylor and I'm saying Taylor's argument is more convincing than theirs.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:42

Way more so right and like he's yeah um so I've been listening some uh Joe Heshmeier uh the past week or so and he actually had um he had a good point and it wasn't he wasn't talking about the set of conscious but it applies very much so to um discussions with them he was he was saying how when when Christ uh was in conversations with the Pharisees right if you notice Christ didn't didn't argue theology with the Pharisees right he he didn't respond to their arguments he he he performed a miracle yeah right you know like he was saying it doesn't matter what what you think or say I'm the son of God and here's a miracle yeah you know it's it's it's almost like that was said yeah they're they're arguing theology they're gonna like the like the Pharisees are going you can't do this on the Sabbath and Jesus is like see his withered hand I'm God here you go like see his withered hand don't tell me what I could do on the Sabbath like yeah to to a certain extent we don't need a we don't need to argue all the you know individual points the set of conscience bring up it's it's the book of job where are your if you are the church of God where are your miracles it's the book of job rob like you go to the book of job all his friends are arguing correct theology and job's just like I don't know what to tell you man like I don't know what to tell you and that's kind of what what with the the the mess we're in today it's um I'm I'm just like I see that Christ is still with his church and I and I stay with his church.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:24

I don't know and I see every time people break away I am too tan for this stream I was cooking in the sun all weekend um I'm gonna come back so sun burnt from Florida yeah I will look like a lobster we used to sell um all right so we're gonna go we're gonna wrap this at 135 and we're gonna go over to locals because Rob doesn't have to get get packing and stuff but I want to give you guys some good stuff on locals.

Closing Thanks And Move To Locals

SPEAKER_02 1:35:52

So we're going to head over there to all of you if you enjoy this please like subscribe share these shows guys like that's actually the best thing you could do share these shows because you got to beat the algorithm um second thing to do is to go is to scan this and go to avoidingbabble.com and donate money throw a tip but uh yeah sharing the show if you can't afford to throw us a tip share the show with people tell tell people it's you know it's a a fun way you know you sound like my wife and the thing is my wife she's telling me my wife will tell me to put sunscreen on and I'm so stubborn I'm like who do you think you're telling what to do?

SPEAKER_01 1:36:30

Do not tell me what to do and then I can it makes me less likely to do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:35

Just don't tell me what to do. I don't like it. Don't tell me what to do um all right so we're gonna go over the locals uh we got a couple things over there we're gonna I'm not no I'm not going to take Christopher West's side that's not what I'm going to do but I want to get into the Wagner video today. Uh I want to talk about uh Chud the Builder and DOJ those are the three topics for locals but we're gonna do we're gonna do the Wagner stuff first because it's like man you guys are you guys I'm like every time I watch these young guys talking about like sex on sex I'm just like thank god I marry my high school sweetheart like I'm so glad I never had to deal with the dating world like oh my gosh man if I ever had to do dating apps and stuff I don't know what I would do thank goodness if yeah if my wife were to die I would hire some sort of nanny for the kids until they were all grown and then I would become a monk because yeah save it for locals I'll we'll talk about that what would we do if our wives died there there is no way this can go wrong for us none what would I do if my wife died oh man all right we're gonna go over to locals guys join us over there uh yeah share the show tell everybody how how fun it is over here and we'll see you guys on the other side