The State of Tradistan w/ Catholic Esquire

One bad Mass can haunt you for years. So can one truly reverent one that finally makes the Catholic faith click.

We sit down with Catholic Esquire to trace the path a lot of serious Catholics have quietly taken: from lukewarm Novus Ordo parish life, to apologetics and “doing all the programs,” to the shock of realizing how much the liturgy forms what we believe about sin, sacrifice, and the Eucharist. We talk about the Traditional Latin Mass not as nostalgia, but as a place where the prayers and posture teach the faith with force and clarity.

COVID comes up as the accelerant. When parishes shut down Mass and delayed sacraments, many people stopped trusting the idea that everything was fine and started seeking a community that would protect a sacramental life. From drive-through confessions to Communion policies that felt irreverent, we unpack why 2020 pushed people “full trad” and why even defenders of the status quo still end up parish-shopping for reverence.

Then we go big: Vatican II, religious liberty, ecumenism, and the social kingship of Christ. We explore why these debates connect to the current Catholic crisis, why sedevacantism arguments keep growing, why the SSPX question won’t go away, and how online “trad wars” can destroy charity if we let them. If you’re trying to raise a family, keep the faith, and think clearly about authority, this conversation is for you.

Subscribe for more conversations like this, share it with a friend who’s wrestling with the same questions, and leave a review with the biggest point you disagreed with.

Transcript

Cold Open And Guest Welcome

SPEAKER_00 0:41

That's a good one, Tappy. The best intro you've ever had. Oh, you know what?

SPEAKER_02 0:48

I love how the cigarette just magically appeared in the he made you look like the the brother-in-law from Breaking Bad. I don't know how that happened.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

I like how this I like how the cigarette magically appeared in my mouth when I stood up. Did you notice that?

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Yeah, the AI is that the AI is still very glitchy. Um, well, Catholic Esquire, welcome to Avoiding Babylon. Dude, the first time I saw your stuff was um when Francis put the uh Sacred Heart encyclical out. So that was the first time I came across your stuff, and I and I've like paid attention to you ever since. I mean you've been on uh Ryan's channel together. I think were we on Stephen Cox's channel together too? Yeah, I think we were on both together, right? Yeah, um, and uh you and I I I just I don't know. You you seem like like like uh the kind of guy we would have a great time if we just got together and had a beer. Seem like a very normal, well-rounded man.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

I don't know about normal, but you know, maybe well-rounded, yeah. It's uh well I am Italian, uh you know, maybe that's why you think that my family's from southern Italy, and you know, they came over in the late 1800s, 1900s, and and uh, you know, now they and they've all been affected by Vatican II and all this modernism and stuff, and so it's just uh yeah, I mean, I think we have a lot in common. I I suspect.

Burnout Then Back To Sacraments

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Yeah, we both we both grew up in the same lukewarm mess, right? And then, yeah, and then later on in life, I mean, I don't I don't I I think we did touch on it lightly, I just forgot the details, but like I I wound up, it was probably around like 2016. I got like burnout from Francis after a Morris Letitia, and I left the sacraments for a little while. And man, the way things just come up in your life when you're not living a sacramental life, it was like God hit me over the head with a two by four to let me know I needed to get back to mass. So, like figuring out what that looked like, I came across the traditional Latin mass, and then and I found uh like a a place to to like live out my Catholic faith in a way that was secluded from the craziness. And I what what was your what was your like journey out of out of Nova Sordo land?

SPEAKER_00 3:02

It was much it was much more gradual because uh about the same time, 2015, 2016, 17, I was all I was a hundred percent in my Nova Sordo man. I was I was like I was the I I was teaching RCIA, I was uh I was like one of the marriage prep people, I would teach marriage prep. I would um I never I I never was a uh uh a minister of holy communion. I I never did that, I never felt comfortable with that. But other than that, I was I'd go to all the Bible studies, I listen to Catholic answers every day, I'd turn it on the radio, and and uh I I bought all the books. I mean, I had all the books that still I still have them all. I mean, so and it would but it was very gradual when I got introduced to the traditional Latin Mass. And even then, I was like, what is this? This is kind of weird, and all of a sudden, and all of a sudden for me, um, well, a couple things. Father Dave Nix kind of introduced me to the Latin Mass, but then he also introduced me to traditional Catholic YouTube, and I started listening to some people like Father Wolf.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Yeah, um, how great of Father Wolf sermons, right? Father Wolf sermons like Census Fidellium. I don't like the treasure trove that was on Census Fidelion for those of us who were just discovering tradition.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Yeah, that was a big one for me. He did a series, um, he did a couple different series I started getting into, and I just started opening my eyes, and then I started just buying different books. And so then I started reading some of the older books, the pre-Vatican II books, and that kind of stuff. And all of a sudden it just it just opened my eyes. And then COVID hit. And that's when that's when I went fullbore. I had to go to uh find traditional parish only. They were shutting down the the sacraments at the at the Novasoto parish. When I was in RCIA, I got in fight with the boomer lady who ran it because she was all excited. Well, excited, like, oh, don't worry, we're gonna, we we don't we spent eight months with these people who want to get their sacraments, and they're just gonna have to wait, but it's okay because it's more important that we wait till we can gather together. And I said to myself, wait a second, no, it's not, it's more important for the salvation of their souls that they get baptized. And I and I made a big deal about it in the in the class, and everybody you know turned on me and they're like, haven't you ever heard of baptism of desire? We can't gather together, we're gonna wait till the bishop says we can get together. And I said, you know what? I quit, I'm out, and I that's when I completely went to traditional at mass. I've only been to two Novusardo masses since that time, and those were both funerals.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Yeah, well, my my last one. I mean, look, I've I've gone to one for like events or something. Like I there was like just no other option. And like I've you know, if we if we were away somewhere or something, but the um the the craziest one for me was my I my oldest in the uh diocesan uh CCD program, even though like we were going to the Latin Mass already, I just the Latin Mass parish was so far away, I couldn't like drive an hour and a half to bring my kid to religion, you know? And I had him in the local CCD program, and the day he made his confirmation was during COVID, and we were just starting to get back into the church during this time. And I go to the priest and I'm like, listen, I've raised my kids to never receive on the hand. Are you okay if if they receive on the tongue? And he said, No. And I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. And then I watched three people go up fiddling with their masks, drop the host on the on the ground, three people in one mass. And I said, That like, no way. That's like you asked for a sign from God. That was it. COVID was such a wild time. So many people discovered tradition during COVID because the novice order shut down. I mean, I remember doing drive-through confessions. Yeah, um, we didn't remember like you would just like do a drive. It was so weird. We had to like, I because I took my whole family and they all had to get out of the car, and I'd pull up in the car next to the priest, and I'd get out, and my kid would have to go in.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

And it was just such a bizarre time, man. Uh it was it was it was nuts, but yeah, you're right. That's when uh that's when there was a huge influx and interest and tradition started starting at that point because so you weren't listening to like TNT when that when that was going on in like 2016, 2017, like with the McCarrick stuff.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

Like, what where were you at during the McCarrick stuff? Were you just not paying attention to it?

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Oh, oh yeah, I mean, I was paying attention to it, but it was like, you know, I was just like, well, you know, uh there's always, you know, bad, bad priests, just like there's bad teachers, and there's bad everybody else, and you know, I I didn't want to listen. I I just didn't it didn't scandalize me like it should have, probably. And um, and so I was, you know, I was I was into it. I mean, I was like I said, I was really into the apologetics and I teach apologetics class at the church, and but um yeah, that's when I but that gave me a good foundation because when I started reading some of the stuff that came before, I knew the stuff they were teaching now. Yeah, I knew the Vatican II stuff really well, and so then I'm like, wait a second, that's not what we're what we're teaching these people in the RCIA class.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Um, and then the first time you read the first time you read an encyclical, like a pre-conciliar encyclical from a pope, you're just like, wait a minute. Oh, this is different.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

They write clearly, you can understand them, the words that are used, and it's like it's just um, I don't know, it's just it's you compare it to what you get now, it's it's just night and day.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

So yeah, it's um it is interesting because I've I mean I've been like paying attention to the trad movement since like 2016. And when I came back, and I like I mean you I gotta give credit to Taylor Marshall because he put out that that challenge during Advent and he said, I challenge anybody, just do four Latin masses in a row during Advent. And I'll always love him for that because it changed my life. It was like because the first one I went, I felt a little out of place. It was a little like I was like, what the heck is going on here? By the fourth one, yeah, when I went back to the Novus Ordo, I felt out of place. I was like, This is bizarre, like I didn't I didn't feel at home anymore. So yeah, and it but the thing is that I I have a bit of nostalgia for Francis now because under Francis, it was like the trad movement had this common enemy, and it's not supposed to be the Pope, it's so bizarre, right? Like it's such a weird thing that the Pope is the enemy, but he did have this way of just putting out the most outlandish stuff that everybody could get together and be like, This is insane! I can't believe what's coming out of Rome. And then yeah, well, I'll I'll I'll let you jump in if you got if you got a couple of things.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Well, no, I was I was gonna agree with you. I mean, I think that I think that Francis covered up a lot of the otherwise internal and divisions within the the trad movement, but they were always there, but because everybody disliked him so much for one reason or another, um there and I think a lot of that got covered over. I was like, I was like a lot of other people with him too, though. I mean, I I actually wrote an article defending him once for a political a political party newspaper. Because I used to be involved in politics before all of this. This is why I'm not afraid to to to deal with this kind of stuff publicly, because I used to do the same thing when I was a Tea Party guy. When I was, you know, super rah-rah tea party. I was kind of a libertarian guy. That was me. So when Francis gets elected in 2013, you know, I was saying, well, he's kind of a hippie, you know, he's just a hippie from South America. What do you expect? You were a Jesuit, of course he is. So, you know, yeah, he loves the environment and all this other stuff. He's ignore that stuff, it doesn't even matter, you know. And I wrote an article defending him, and I think it's buried behind a paywall somewhere, and I hope it never comes to light.

Francis Era Unity And Numbness

SPEAKER_02 11:17

Here's the thing like, I think I owe because I never I never liked Francis from day one, but I always had this mentality like, look, if we're talking amongst each other, we could talk about the father, or we could talk about our dad, you know. It's like we're family members, we're siblings, we could talk about uh our dad being messed up. But like, even to this day, if a Protestant like tries to say something about Francis, like I'll I'm gonna defend Francis, like he's he's my team, like I don't care, I'll go at you. Even if it's even if it's Francis, it's like I would have I would have defended him to a Protestant. But talking about him amongst each other, it's like whoa, something's really off here. But but the thing is because I've been doing this for a decade now, like this, even the most recent thing with them bringing up the Pachamama pictures from Leo, like I don't even care. I'm not even phased by it. Like, I I I almost don't get the outrage about it, and I'm just like, what year do you guys think this is? This isn't 2016, like you got you guys are acting like, oh my goodness, this is scandalous! Like, there's nothing scandalous about this. Like, we knew what Leo was like. I don't anybody that's surprised by who Leo is at this point.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

I'm shocked by it is it it is what I it is scandalous, and it says it's scandalous that you have a man who the world believes is the Pope uh worshiping false pagan idols. That is there's no way around it. That's scandalous. I think I think what you're feeling is more of a numbness to it because we've seen it so much, we see this controversy every single day for almost 10 years now. Well, more than 10 years, every single day, and now it's like, yeah, we just see it again, and it doesn't have that effect on you that maybe I don't think I'm desensitized, I don't think it's that I'm desensitized, I really don't.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

I think it's because of the the the framework in which I see things is that like if I I see us as in the passion of the church, and I actually think there can't be a resurrection without a death, and I want to see the the I want to see the Sonatal church thing die, so I'm almost like, yeah, okay, cool, like whatever.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

That's totally different. No, no, no, that's totally different because I I agree with you in that I think that we that something has to give at some point. This cannot continue. Uh, and so I do think there's a group of people who call themselves Catholic that are not Catholic, they don't believe it, they reject the doctrines, but they call themselves Catholic, and unfortunately, a big large part of them happen to be in the hierarchy, yeah. Um, and so I I think there's a reckoning that needs to happen, and it does mean that there's gonna be some sort of split and between one group of people who say they're the real Catholics and another group of people who say they're the real Catholics, and the battle is over who's the real Catholics.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

Um well, that's see, I don't see the I mean, the things that I've been talking about on my show are I've been kind of just going into the the story of salvation history and trying to understand the enmity between Jews and Christians, but not doing it in like this bombastic way like Tim Gordon's doing right now, or even Carrie Pajan Bowler's doing. Like, I'm not trying to do it like calling people like you zio this or whatever. I'm doing it very differently in that I want people to actually understand the ancient Christian understanding of this because this enmity is where I see the divide coming. And I I think anybody that doesn't this is kind of what confuses me about the sedes. It's like especially a guy like Chris Jackson, who I really do like, but I see Chris Jackson who sees sees all the problems in the Sonatal church, but he's like a MAGA guy. And I'm like, dude, do you not see what's happening with Trump right now? Like, do you not I I see them I see that they're um they they recognize the issues in the novus or there's no solution to it, and they're not even I'm baffled by their lack of apocalypticism. Like, like I how can you how can you hold that view and not think this is the end? Like, like what you're telling me is that the church has been taken over by a foreign religion and it's been going on for 70 years, the Jews are in the holy land, and like the scriptures literally say that the the the the Jerusalem will be trodden underfoot by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. You see all these things happening, and you're not like okay, it's the end of the world. Like, at least the Diamond Brothers do that. I'll give the Diamond Brothers that at least they think it's the end, but I'm baffled by a guy like Mario. Like Mario's like, no, this isn't the passion of the church. I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_00 15:52

I I don't know. I mean clearly, clearly, there's signs that would suggest we are at the end of the I mean we are at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

I'm not putting like I'm not putting like a two-year timeline on it or anything. I'm just saying, like what I see in the hierarchy is like men who don't believe the faith, right? Like you're you're seeing like faithless men in the hierarchy. It looks very similar to the Sanhedrin. Like that's so it's like my my my actual disagreement with the sedes, because I don't even in principle disagree with their position. It's like I like, yeah, no, I like there's a very good chance Leo's not the Pope. Like, I don't I I don't know. Like there's a very good chance none of the popes since the council have been popes. I don't I don't know. I have a more of um uh like an ep like a a humility about it. Like I could be wrong on anything I'm saying. I don't I don't know. I'm very like, God, if I'm wrong on this, please show it to me. My issue comes in when it's if I disagree with their position on one slight thing, it's like they have to attack me. And and they and it and there's there's no room for a conversation when you agree like 90% of it, and their their solution is well, no, you have to leave the Novosordo communion totally and go to some uh priest whose orders are from some line over here. Like I would feel way more comfortable with the SSPX position. At least you know Lefebvre's orders are valid. He's a pre-conciliar valid, valid, validly ordained bishop, and all the bishops since then, and all the priests since then, like like that's at least a valid ecclesial communion that I would go there before I went to some like I don't know like where this priest's orders come from.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Yeah, I I guess my my frustration is is um that when you talk we when you say things and and they actually this and I'm talking about the the state of a conness, they agree with you on what you're saying when it comes to the doctrines and the problems with the people in the hierarchy and all these other things. Uh, they agree with all of those things. Um, and then at the end of the day, all they do is attack you anyway, because because you acknowledge the same crisis in the church, but if you don't draw the exact same conclusion that they do from the crisis in the church, you're an idiot, you're stupid, you don't know anything about. And I'm like, that's actually we are we actually we we pretty much agree on on a lot of things, but may it's the consequences of the crisis we don't necessarily agree on. And like you said, I mean, they they very well may be right. I I mean but the thing is is they we agree on um we agree on the crisis in the church part, and that's that's what's frustrating, is you is unless you accept their conclusions like the guy they want to gauge.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

The way they the way especially a guy like Mario, Mario goes vicious, and I like Mario, like I've hung out with him on on stream, like I like the guy, but the way he attacks the SSPX is bizarre to me. It's like it's it's totally baffling to me. It's like, dude, you it's like you are angry that they have a stable community, and and it like it infuriates him that they'll have anything to do with the Pope and stuff, and like I will have uh my my one of my main disagreements is the validity of orders, and I'm like, I I'm sorry, I I still think the church has the authority to ordain, like that's where the who else but the church has the authority to ordain. So I like the validity of orders things. Uh I I really have a disagreement with them about. I think we're in in a time where it's just you have to find a place where you can be Catholic, whatever that looks like, where where you're actually being fed the Catholic faith, you're living a sacramental life, you're not living in mortal sin, you're going to confession, you have a prayer life. That's the that's the only thing you can do right now. I don't know what the fight between everybody is.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Well, and it's interesting because at the end of the day, um it is Nova Sordo Watch, right? It's not Presbyterian watch, it's not Baptist watch. Why is it Nova Sordo Watch and not Protestant watch? Because there's something about what this entity that calls itself a Catholic Church right now. There's an at least on paper, these people have apostolic succession. They they can trace on paper their orders back to 1958 under Pope under Pope Pius XII, when even the state of a contests agree that that was valid operating juridical church. So there's something there, and that's what that's what makes it a crisis in the church. That's what makes it a crisis in the church. And every single person that calls himself a state of a contest at some point had to say, uh, this Pope or this cardinal, whatever, appears to have apostolic authority on paper. They are saying something contrary to the faith, therefore, I am concluding that they are not, they don't have uh that they're not Catholic anymore. Well, okay, so they have to go through that process just like everybody is doing. It's just so we're coming to different conclusions. Coming to a different conclusion.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

And I the way I see it is things are so confusing, is you have to give leeway to people that have a different conclusion. Like we're all looking at the same issue, right? And we're coming to different conclusions. Like my conclusion is is not that like I'm when I say I'm not surprised by anything these men do, like, I really am not. I I'm I'm actually just waiting for God's intervention at this point. There's nothing on the human level that's going to fix this. I wasn't even hopeful that like at when Francis time was actually the interregnum. Those like two weeks where we had no Pope. And it was like, it was the best time. We all could just like get along and talk. We're all set of a contest during that time. And it was like, it was really awesome. But the day Leo came in, I was on with Tim Gore. Tim Gordon ran me through everything. I was just like, oh my goodness, this is gonna be a nightmare. And then after that show, I was like, I don't want to obsess on this crap anymore. Like, I just don't because I what what I see is um with sets, especially, the the guys who were actually um uh cradle sets, they're very normal. Like Kevin Davis and Father Geckle, like those are two of the most normal guys. Like, I would love to hang out with them. I can see myself like talking to Father Geckel about like spiritual direction and stuff. It's just the the guys who convert, it seems like like they're they're wrestling with this thing. Like, is Leo the Pope? Is he not the Pope? Is he the Pope? Is he not the Pope? Then when they come to the conclusion he's not the Pope, instead of them going, okay, he's not the Pope, I can leave this thing alone and go be Catholic. It's like now I have to obsess on him, even more. And then their religion becomes obsession with the novus order. And it's like, dude, you just decided that's not the real church. Why don't you go? If you're part of the real one true church, why are you not just going and being it's it's a weird thing that happens, yeah.

Sedevacantism And The SSPX Question

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Well, I think maybe this will make you feel better, maybe not, but I think the the fault lines are changing a little bit. I'm sensing that a little bit. Um, even just I mean, since Leo came around, the I think the fault lines are changing a little bit. Um, I think there's bigger, there's a big fault line along Vatican II. You have the pro-Vatican II people and the anti-Vatican II people, and then the and then the Jewish question. You have the pro-Israel Zionist people who are calling themselves Catholic, and the ones who are against. And sometimes I think those fault lines cross each other in a very interesting way. So, for example, I think Tim Gordon is uh, well, we know his position on Zionism and all that. At the same time, he'll still defend Vatican II. It is a same thing with the Michael Jones, right? Yeah, it's a really weird thing that like but but they're really good on the on the JQ. The JQ. And uh look so it's like it's like, and then there's people more like me who you know who are against the JQ kind of and then uh against the Vatican II, and I can show you it's just the same to me that Vatican II is pro-Jewish. I mean, that's what it was.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

The same issue, it's one and the same issue. Like, you cannot this is okay, a couple things. Well, first of all, uh Tim Gordon will will admit, like, he's just started coming around on this issue recently, so it's not it's not like it's not like uh the the the patriarchy issue for him, where the patriarchy issue, like he's got years of study on it, and that like that was his thing. Well, he's just coming around on this issue now. So you see you can see an excitement in him when he starts reading these like pre-conciliar popes, and he's he's like, Whoa, this is a teaching on the on the on the on this question before. I he's learning it new, so there's a a way he's going about that. The the thing is, my my awakening on the council has to do with Norshur Tate, has to do with the Abrahamic faith house, like all of these things are so closely intertwined, and and a lot of it has to do with Father Maudsley like waking me up about the liturgy and what's going on inside the liturgy and how it's really infiltration from it's it's this post-war consensus that comes out after after World War II, and you see these lobbies and this pressure on the church that before the council, the church was not only able to withstand, but was able to teach with clarity, and Catholics understood this issue. But after this horrible event, like everybody has this guilt put on them, and it's like, oh my goodness, we can never let that happen again. And that's that's what does it's almost like the world's been put under a spell since the council, and the council is very much involved with it. But even with even with um uh uh religious liberty, because I never understood the religious liberty question that the SSPX was so hung up on until you see what's happening in our country and you see that once it took the church putting that document out. You got to think about that. Before that, before the church puts that document out, the West doesn't open itself up to these foreigners, right? And then not only does the West open themselves up to these foreigners, but they then have to elevate Islam and Hinduism and all these other religions as if they're on par with Christianity.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

You can't have the ecumenism in Vatican II without the religious liberty component. There's no possible way because you can't be a humanist in the way the modernists want you to be when you still have a teaching on the book that says you don't have a right to practice in public false religion and spread error and heresy. You they're not compatible. So because Vatican II, and this is always my point, Vatican II is a a program that it it works together. Um, you can't religious liberty and ecumenism, all they work together, and they're you can't have one without the other, really. No, you can't. Um did you catch did you catch the Eric McTaxis show on Catholic integralism? Did you see that?

SPEAKER_02 27:10

No, I saw him tweeting about it though.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Oh, it was just it was so bad.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

These guys are so dumb, they're they're just so low IQ, like they're just retarded these guys.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

It was so bad. Well, he had John Zamirek on there, who's like you know, pro-Americanist, he's you know pro-Israel, he's loves Vatican II, and he gets on there and he does something. Zamir's a POS, man. Oh, yeah, yeah. And he does something that's very interesting in that show. If you listen to it, he admits, he said, Vatican II reversed prior teaching. He said that, which is very interesting because if you talk, if you talk to all these other guys, the Hermeneuca continuity people, all these people, they're like, Oh no, we can swear it. You just just go read Thomas Pink, he explains it all. No, Thomas Pink doesn't, but they never they never admit the Vatican II changed the teaching. Zamirak comes on and says he it it reversed the prior teaching, so we don't have to listen to any of that prior stuff because he knows religious liberty is intimately tied to the the JQ question, of course, which is what their whole show was about.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Of course it is, but also Norsha Tate does like doesn't define anti-Semitism at all. But what it what would regardless of even what the document says, like, because I probably couldn't find a way to square it if I'm arguing against like an orthodox or so. Like if I'm arguing with Jay Dyer, I could find a way to make it work, but it doesn't work because if you if you just look at the consequences of it, like freaking, I don't care what the damn document says, I see what they did with it. It doesn't matter if you can square the circle, it's irrelevant because they don't square the circle. What they did was they look, religious liberty is because it's one thing to have religious liberty amongst Christian Protestants, right? Like, like different Protestant sects, it's like, all right, religious liberty. You got we're not gonna persecute you if you're Anglican or if you're you know Presbyterian or something. That's one thing, but to allow false gods to come in to your nation and then hold them up as if your right to worship them is on par with the now. You're now what you're actually doing is telling world leaders they no longer have to recognize Christ as king.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

That's right. So that's it right there. That's the problem with religious liberty is it's a rejection of the doctrine of the social kings of Christ. Yes. That's it, that's the problem with it.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Um and and look, people go on about this every every year on the feast of Christ the king, and they say, Well, you're gonna hear a homily about Christ as king of my heart. You get but the but people don't explain this well. The point of the social kingship of Christ is that every ruler, especially in Christian nations, owes obedience to Christ the King. And what happens after the council is the the the leaders of all these nations no longer serve Christ as king. That's when abortion gets the religious liberty leads to abortion, it leads to every single thing. Like it's I'm I'm telling you, it's the root of it. So you can tell me how this how the council didn't technically say this thing. I don't care what the thing technically said. What the church is telling us with that council is that we're no longer going to convert the pagans, we're gonna recognize them as where they are, and they're telling us that the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. The church is the Great Commission is over, we're no longer sending missions out to convert the world. That's it. The Great Commission's over, the gentle time of the Gentiles fulfilled. Let the Jews move back into Israel. Let's go, let's bring it on.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

Everything, everything the Trads and the Conservatives complain about in the church today, all of it stems from Vatican II. And I do think, I do think Vatican II documents uh in themselves are are wrong in many places. Uh, that's part of what I talk about all the time. Um, I think that if you read Nostratate, it it basically said in it, I mean it said anti it condemned anti-Semitism. It doesn't define what anti-Semitism. But it comes right after the section where it says that that that Holy Scripture doesn't condemn the uh never condemn the Jews for killing Christ. So these it says this is not what holy scripture teaches, and then in the next sentence it says we condemn anti-Semitism, uh, and we have to teach according to this. So um I think it's pretty clear, honestly. I don't think it's I don't think these documents are nearly as ambiguous as people like to say they are.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

Oh, no, I don't think I think they're intentionally um I I think they were very it's very intentional what they were doing. They were they were resetting everything, right? But I do still think that there is a protection of the Holy Spirit on the church. In that you still you still can get the sacraments from the church. The church still won't ordain women, the church still won't tell you a mortal sin is not a mortal sin. Like, like for like like they wanted the like the when they asked the uh the DDF about same-sex blessings, the DDF came right out and it was like, no, we can't bless sin. And then Francis had to put this twisted, weird document out that it was like, Well, we're not blessing the couple, we're blessing the individuals, and it's like we all know what he was doing, but I think if the Holy Spirit wasn't protecting the church, these men would just they would just start marrying gay people. I mean, that's that's what they want, but there's something stopping them from doing it still.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Yeah, I I mean, I I think it is to the point where they are trying to to create a new entity. I mean, that they're creating a new entity while keeping the name. Um, but I I I don't think they're I think they realize that they don't need to go and change the sacraments. I think I think they just don't do it because they made the prudent decision that it's not that people will open up their eyes and say, oh wait, there is a problem here. So yeah, so like that's like so like the so like women priests, right? So okay, we're not gonna we're not gonna ordain women priests. We don't need to ordain them, we're just going to give them all the power and all the governing power. We're gonna they're gonna tell priests what to do, we're gonna put them in positions in the curia, we're gonna have them run parishes, we're going to have them instruct priests in the seminaries. And at the end of the day, they accomplished what they wanted to do without having to change the sacraments because they realized it's not worth it. A lot of these people don't even believe in the sacraments, they don't care. Well, that's what they want to accomplish. Uh what they want to accomplish is is is is not religious.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

The the Novus Ordo liturgy conditions you to like like and I'm I'm saying like your typical parish that like you go to, like your typical parish, uh you know, not not priests who are very careful with their liturgy and stuff like that, but like your typical parish that you go to, if you're just a typical Catholic, going to your random Novus Ordo parish, it's designed to lessen the gravity of sin. And with when you start putting girls in the sanctuary, like altar girls and stuff, it's conditioning you to already accept transgenderism. Like, that's not that's not a role that girls belong in, it's making girls into boys, it's all the things that are happening in the world. Like, so goes the church, as goes the church, so goes the world. And that's kind of my point. That it the reason that Sene's are still looking to Rome is because the world, whether you think Francis is the Pope or not, is kind of irrelevant because the world sees up Francis, I said Francis, but Leo. Whether you think Leo's a valid Pope or not is kind of irrelevant because what the world sees is Leo as the Pope, and what the Roman see does, the world is watching, no matter what. Like it doesn't, it doesn't matter. So when when when Rome starts playing around with things, the whole world's going, okay, Rome's gonna do this, Rome's gonna do this. Because the whole world understands that it's still the church that that puts down what is right and wrong. They they could choose to defy it and they could fight against it, but they know the church herself is the one who decides, not and well, not decides, declares what reality is.

Vatican II Religious Liberty Debate

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Yeah, well, it's always been that way, and it's it was always the church that was supposed to defend us against what we're seeing in the world, the uh the globalist liberalization, secularization of the world. It was always the church that was supposed to defend us against that. And since Vatican II, they they've decided not to. Um, and and you see it with the loss of faith with among people in the hierarchy, but loss of faith among regularly Catholics. Um, but I I I will say this, but I what I'm with this holy carry praying thing, this is getting very interesting to me because I think there's a real uh chance here that all these trad wars we're used to the last four years, the inner trad wars, the you know, this little this little hive, this little small hive uh uh community of Catholics on Twitter that fight with each other all the time. I think there's a real chance that it could break out into a more national conversation. The the discussion about Vatican II, the discussion about traditional Catholicism versus modernist Catholicism and Neo-Catholicism. I think there's a real chance that this could break out into a much bigger discussion, which will be really interesting. Uh because you're already starting to see it a little bit, just like that podcast I was telling you about with Metaxis and all that. Yeah, like um, that's starting, I think that's starting to break out into the more national conversation. And that'll get really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

Yeah, that would happen. Yeah. Yeah, I I'm not I'm not crazy about it being parry prison bowler. That's my issue. Like, I I just don't think it should be a mom who's married. Like, I just don't think she should be the spokesperson for this stuff. I'm not a fan of I'm not a fan of her being like brought into these conferences and making her the star speaker. I'm just I'm just not a fan of. I'm never going to be.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

Like no, I'm not I'm not comfortable with it either. And you can tell she's very she she doesn't she hasn't been Catholic long enough or involved in some of these discussions to understand the nuances there, which is why, you know, which is why so she she reposts uh I think um Bishop Dolan, uh the Saint of a Conscious Bishop Dolan the other day as in support of her position. And then of course the whole, you know, oh no, you can't do that. And um, I can only imagine she's very confused at the same time. She's going uh promoting religious liberty and commissions uh called by the president that the whole world is seeing. So there's this there's this disconnect there, and and she hasn't she doesn't understand the nuances enough to do that, especially to be a spokes, you know, spokesperson. So I I'm not comfortable with it either, but I am happy to see these issues talked about now because I think I think it's starting to uh these these topics we've never would have talked about five, six years ago.

Zionism And Kosher Catholic Branding

SPEAKER_02 38:05

Never. I we have uh my Mormons my Mormon's uh son is here. My Mormon son. My Mormon child. I feel bad because I didn't hug Tommy enough when he was a little boy. Quote, Catholic Esquire. Oh Tommy. Tommy, Tommy was an only child. He was raised by his sisters in a Mormon household. He went from one cult to another. Poor kid. Little Tommy. Oh, little Tommy. Where's your twink, Tommy? Anyway, um I have no idea what you're talking about. Oh, uh Tommy knows exactly what I'm talking about. Okay. Um, anyway, um yeah, it is it is I do hope these conversations uh start to come up publicly. I think that you're uh uh what um what you're what you're seeing, I think with Matt Frago and a Daily Wire, Michael Knowles over at the Daily Wire, they're trying to present a um a uh I mean uh even me and Stephen Cox have been calling it kosher Catholicism. Like they're trying to present the kosher Catholicism that still allows for support of the state of Israel. Um, but uh, but still like like we'll tow the Vatican II line that you know all the promises are fulfilled in Christ and stuff like that, but you know, you can still support Israel as a nation's state, and it's like you know you can't. Like there's no there's no scenario where you can support Israel having a having a a state, and especially in that land where they are right now. Like it is it is diabolical to have them over there.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Well, the state, the state, I mean it's built into their into their general laws, which is basically their constitution, that the state is first and foremost primarily for for Jews.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Um, and the problem with that is from a Catholic standpoint, is that um the state must always be subservient to Christ the King under the social kingship of Christ. So if you have a state that explicitly denies Christ or based on something that specifically denies Christ, you can't say you support that because they that's what it is. Um even on a natural level, right? Like you can't you you can't support on a natural level for that reason alone.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Um well I I would like to see because I don't I I yeah, it it's a delicate issue to talk about, obviously. Um it's a very it's a very hard issue to talk about because you you you catch a label when you do talk about it. But I I I would like to know why, like if Cetivicantists are the one true church and they're they have the real Catholic faith, I would like to know why none of them really discuss this issue without hiding behind anonymity. Like, there's some guys that are awesome on it, like American Reform. I really, really love um, and there's some guys who are really good on it, but like, where are the guys willing to put their neck on the line? I would I would like because that's where I think the most like the deepest conversations can be had on exactly what we're talking about is the is the infiltration at the council, the infiltration in the liturgy. That's where we have to find common ground because it's not it's not about like where you're attending the sacraments, it's about as this thing plays out, it's going to form a rupture in the church. And there are plenty of people that are going to the novus ordo who are going to be open to hear this, and they're going to they're going to be like we're going to get to a point where the where the sacraments are taken away, right? Like there's the the the in the apocalypse talks about a three and a half year period where where the sacraments are totally taken away. So then it's irrelevant where you land on that set of a contest position. It's just you're gonna have nothing. But where you stand on this issue is gonna very much matter because if we are in the time I think we are, falling for the for the man of sin is gonna be where you stand on this issue. If you're if you're siding with supporting the state of Israel, you're going to you're gonna fall for that diabolical lie, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

Yeah, I honestly can't answer that. I mean, I don't know. I I actually don't I know I haven't seen any state of a conscious really be pro-Israel, have you? I I'm pro, not seen it. I don't I don't know. I mean, I think we all want, I think we all would agree that we all want to see the conversion of Jews, just like we all want to see the conversion of everyone who's not Catholic. That's that's that's ultimately what our goal here is. And and people lose sight of that fact, which is clearly obvious. Um, when you hear listen to these discussions about all of these, well, you have a right to do this and you have a right to do that. It's like, yeah, but we're all trying to get people to convert for the salvation of their souls. So I love American Reform, by the way. Like, I legit love him. Yeah, he's putting out really good content on Substack too. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

First off, he's he's an invaluable uh resource for just posting quotes of what the church has said. That's it. Just just look, this is what the popes have said. He's not he's not even adding his own opinion on things, he's just posting um different things the church fathers have said, different things the popes have said on this issue. And it's like it's such a it's it's one of those issues where if you say the wrong thing, they're gonna come for you and you're gonna get in trouble. And it's like it's it's it sucks because we should be able to talk about it from a Catholic perspective without having to worry about that. I mean, it's just it's part of the story, and you know, it's it's has nothing to do with hatred or anything like that. It's has to do with, man, this is this is the this is just a a wild time to be alive. Like watching the conversation in the public has actually affirmed my faith so much because I'm seeing the the the the enmity coming to light. So much between just like Tucker Carlson and and and uh Mark Levin and things like that. Like when I see that stuff happening, I'm like, whoa, you're really seeing like that the the the story of that enmity coming to light, and it should affirm you in your faith. Because as crazy as things are in the church, and they are crazy, it's like all of this was actually told to us that it was going to happen.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

Yeah, and and that's that was always my thing, is like I I'm not a theologian, I don't come on here and try to tell people and teach people theology, I never do that. But I think just quoting what popes have said in the past or quoting catechisms, and then just saying, okay, how does that apply to what we're seeing today? That's all I that's all I've ever said I'm doing. I I'm not I'm not making myself my own pope and my own private judgment. And I and I would say the state of a conscious aren't doing that either. I mean, they're just saying, like, look, this is what this guy taught, this guy taught, this catechism taught, this catechism taught, and what we're seeing now is contrary.

Humility About Conclusions And Authority

SPEAKER_02 45:04

Clearly, clearly, something happened, right? Like, I mean, I don't even if you're even if you're like the Pope Splainer type, like the Pope Splainers, man, how do you how do you not like because I think at heart those guys want to be Orthodox Catholics, but they're and they think what being an Orthodox Catholic means is just support the Pope no matter what, and that's just craziness. Like the Catholic faith is much more than uh like following the Pope, like it's not what the Catholic faith is, is it's like a very you know, it's a part of it, but the Catholic faith itself is this giant treasure trove of history and doctrine and a ton of different things that really have to go into it. So when you see the modern hierarchy doing something different, it should raise alarm bells for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Yeah, well, that is the crisis in the church. Is I mean, that is the crisis is that you have people who apparently have apostolic succession, at least on paper, that are teaching things contrary to the tradition of the faith, which includes doctrines and dogmas that you have to believe in order to be Catholic. That's the problem. So, I mean, and then and then when you see that, then you can draw conclusions from that. Well, does that mean that these people are not Catholic and therefore do not hold office? That that that could be. Maybe that's true for some members of the hierarchy and not some other members of the hierarchy. Maybe some of these people actually, um, maybe some of them don't even know better, which would make them material heretics and not formal heretics. I think it's more complicated than it is both what the post claimers want to make it and what the Sadies want to make it. Well, it's more complicated, otherwise, we wouldn't be having all these fights.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

It's more complicated, especially because there's never been an official church teaching on this matter. It's always the opinions of doctors of the church or opinions of and they're not unanimous. So, like, you'll hear them pull out Robert Bellman, what St. Robert Bellman said, and you'll hear them, and it's like, well, this is what St. Robert Bellaman said, and it's like, oh, okay, but that's not a doctrine of the church. And my my thing is, like, there's also uh counsels who say, like, if somebody falls into mortal sin, that doesn't put them outside of the church. Like, that's a dogma of the church. Like, committing a mortal sin doesn't put you outside the church, it just means you've separated yourself, your grace from your yourself from grace with from God's grace, but you're not outside of the church if you commit a mortal sin. So I don't know what it means. Like, to me, the the the most shocking thing is that these men are priests of the most high God. That's what makes what they're doing so shocking. It's not that they're pagan priests, it's that they're priests of God, and they're they're not teaching and and delivering God's word to God's people anymore.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Right. That's the problem. That's why I don't care what like the Protestant down the street's talking about, you know. But I'm much more interested in knowing what the guy down the street who says he's a Catholic priest is is talking about. Yeah, because there is something there. There's a you know, whether you know, even if you want to declare the guy outside the church because he's rejected the faith, whatever the case, there's still some sort of connection to the one true holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is what's causing the problem and the issue and the crisis. And so then I'm I'm I'm kind of lenient. Like I understand people can draw conclusions about what that means. And some people will say, Well, maybe this guy's outside the church and couldn't possibly be the Pope. Okay, it kind of does solve the problem. Um, but at the same time, you kind of have to prove it too.

Sponsor Reads And Quick Housekeeping

SPEAKER_02 48:39

Yeah, you have to well, also, Jesus gives us the parable of the wheat and the tares, right? And they grow up together and he separates them. Yeah, it's not like on us to separate them, like it's just it's just not our job to go, well, this man said this, and that makes that means he lost his office. Like, I don't have any authority at all to say someone lost their office. It's an absurd thing, it would be such an arrogant thing for me to do. Like, you just it's just whatever God's doing is mysterious right now, and I don't have all the answers, and I'm just waiting for him to clarify. And the um, yes, like the yeah, the wheat and the tears, and then I had um yeah, I had something else. I just totally lost my trainer for. I'm tired, guys. But also, uh, before like before we move on to the next thing, Rob's Rob took the week off because Rob lost his grandmother, and uh he was just like he did so much traveling and stuff, so it's like I saw people saying like Rob left me or something though. Rob Rob needed a very much Rob had a very much needed rest on on hand. So I was just like, dude, just take the week off. I'll have a couple of conversations this week. I'll be fine. And so he's just getting some rest and relaxation because he's been traveling a ton. He lost his grandmother and stuff. Um, while we're taking this quick break, nicknack.com. Go to nicknack.com. They are our sponsor. We love Nicknack. Nicknacks is uh not a smoking cessation device. Nicknack contains nicotine, and nicotine is an addictive substance. Knickknacks are uh nicotine lozenges, they're better than pouches. You don't leave any um uh spitbull pouches around your house. My wife can't stand those, so she's very happy with Nick Knack. So go to knicknack.com, use code AB25 for 25% off and check out. Look what Rob taught me, actually. Rob taught me how to use banners so I don't forget the promo codes. Use code AB25% for 25% off, not AB25. Use code ab25% for 25% off. Also, shoplobster.com, use code AB10 for 10% off. That you'll get anytime. The the the knickknack one you get just for your first purchase. But shoplobster.com, it's Lent. You can't have meat on Friday. You may as well uh eat the insects of the sea lobster. I love them. I've been experimenting with different uh recipes with lobster during Lent. It's been very fun. So go to shoplobster.com, use code AB10 for 10% off. Um, um we're we're okay. The other thing is we're not gonna do locals tonight. I got home from work at eight o'clock, so I had to push the show back in half hour. I slammed some food down my throat. I took a quick shower. I am ready to collapse. So we're gonna probably do like another 15 minutes and then we're gonna just wrap this one up. That's fine. Um, yeah, me and Esquire have been trying to get this show done for like weeks now, right? Like three weeks in a row. We were like, let's do it this night.

Childhood Faith Jesuits And Grandparents

SPEAKER_00 51:28

And then we had to cancel once. Well, and originally, I mean, we were gonna talk about was uh we were gonna share some uh Nova Soto war stories. Uh I still want to do that because we can talk about all our elementary school and you know. Did you did you grow up in a very Catholic home? No, I mean, my we were Catholic, but it was it was mainly Christmas and Easter Catholics. Um my my mom was Lutheran, my dad was Catholic. My grandparents on my Italian side, of course, were all Catholic. So um by the time I was born, we my dad would go to church, you know, once in a while. And uh as kids, we went once in a while. We were Christmas and Easter Catholics, basically. And what what what what changed that for you? Um I and actually I became very interested in the faith much more when I got to high school. Um, but then I went to a Jesuit high school where I started learning all the all the Vatican II liberal stuff. Um and so then I I was interested in the faith and I was trying to reconcile that, and I kind of knew there was a problem with what I was hearing from these Jesuit priests teaching us versus what I thought might be right. Um and then I went to college, I completely lost almost all the faith, you know, did the whole thing where uh lived a nice life of debauchery for several years, uh, came back to the faith, had a um uh thanks to the Blessed Virgin Mary, our Lady of Fatima, had uh had a uh a direct experience, I think, that helped lead me back into the church. And then it was slowly um got back into Novus Ordo church because that's all I knew there was. That's all I knew there was. I ended up getting my confirmation as an adult and then just got more interested and more interested and to the point where I was running the RCIA program almost. I mean, that's uh so it was it was it was that sort of trajectory, but we we really were not that that strong Catholics when I was a kid growing up.

SPEAKER_02 53:31

I had a very Catholic upbringing, man. Like I um I I mean as Catholic as you can have it, you know, like in that world. Like my like my mom prayed the rosary with me as a kid, and my mom were like very into like they went to Benji Gori and they were very heavy into like marrying apparitions and stuff. The thing my mom taught me that like really always stuck with me was Eucharistic miracles and marrying apparitions, those two things, like even when I was tempted away from the faith, I was like, Nope, you never leave the Eucharist. I've seen that thing bleed, like there's no way, and that kept me in the face. So I've there's never been a period in my life where I wouldn't have been like, no, I'm identifiable Catholic. Um, but it was when I probably like right around the time I got married that I started actually thinking a little deeper about this stuff. And once you have kids, it's like the miracle of life comes in, and we're just like, What do I do with this? And like the weight of like being responsible for a life is what really really made me take it seriously.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

Yeah, I think for me that was more my grandparents. I think you know, my my grandmother had a very strong devotion to Saint Joseph, which a lot of Italians do. Um, the Sacred Heart, also a lot, you know, very popular for that generation. Um, so I I'll never forget, I'll just tell you this one story. I mean I came home from high school one time after learning at the Jesuit high school that Adam and Eve didn't really exist. And I told my I told my grandmother that, and I thought I thought I was gonna be disowned. She was so disappointed. She said, What did you just say? And I'm like, Well, yeah, I mean, Adam and Eve weren't real people. I mean, we didn't all come from the same people. I mean, that's how old were you when you said that? The story. I was in high school.

SPEAKER_02 55:14

In high school, you thought because you were getting fed the evolution line.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Yeah, oh yeah. And then, you know, the the whole scriptural stuff, or like you know, well, that that didn't that wasn't real history. That's just to tell a spiritual story. It's all allegory, all of it. And I came home, thought I was being smart talking about this to my grandmother. I've never seen her so upset and disappointed with me in my life. Um, I never forgot that. And it really that's one of those things that sticks to me to this day. I was like, I'm blessed. I wish I could talk to her now, you know, and tell her, No, no, you'd be so proud of me now. I'm doing all I want to go to the mass you guys used to go to and all this, you know.

SPEAKER_02 55:50

She's probably praying for you from heaven, brother.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

Oh, I do believe her. I believe her prayers uh brought me back to the faith because I think she saw I had pretty much gone off.

SPEAKER_02 55:59

Grandma doesn't believe Adam and Eve is an allegory.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

Yeah, no, she didn't appreciate that. Try having those conversations, but you know, that's the way they are the Jesuits. You know, you think you're so smart. I'm gonna go home and teach my grandmother the truth about all this stuff, you know. Uh, what I learned today, uh how this scripture and understanding scripture properly, he she doesn't know how to do that, you know. That was my attitude. Oh man, terrible. It's just terrible.

SPEAKER_02 56:28

Yeah, what baffles me is like someone like um like my dad, who's like the who was like this super conservative guy with politics, and like I would talk to him about religion, and he and I'd talk about the Latin mass, and he'd be like, Nah, you don't even. I'm like, Dad, you are conservative. Do you not understand it? Was the liberals that did this to us? Like, I'm trying to get him to make the leap that no, no, no, the whole reason the thing changed was because of the liberal. I think if I could get him there, he'll he'll he'll come to the other side with me. Yeah, it's it's hard to it's hard to infiltrate the boomer brain, man. Boomer brain is a it's it's a hard, hard, hard brain, very hard to get through.

SPEAKER_00 57:08

Yeah, very it's a hard generation.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Yeah, what what was well for me the worst thing that there were two things that stand out as like worst things that I experienced in in the Novus Orda would be one was when my wife was in RCIA and there's a bunch of women teaching it, and they tried telling us that the priesthood was invented in like the sixth or seventh century or something, and I was like infuriated, and I caused this big freaking fiasco at the RCIA program. And the other, I was I went to a I went to a parish, there was a visiting priest, and the priest just decided we're not gonna read John 1 today because I don't like that gospel, and he changed it to like the Good Samaritan or something, and then during the um during the creed where it's uh um for us men in our salvation, he's like, and we're gonna say it for us men and us women in our salvation, and then during the hour father, he comes down out of the sanctuary and he starts holding hands at the people, and I'm like, I'm out, I'll see you later. I'm not even saying for this fake consecration.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

Boy, isn't it amazing when you read the last gospel every time at the Mass now, and you read every time I read that, I'm like, now I know why they took it out of the mass. Now I know why. I mean, it it just hits you harder every time I read that last gospel.

SPEAKER_02 58:26

That that last gospel, we kneel because of uh it was like some Gnostic heresy in the Middle Ages. It was like um I forgot what heresy it was, but it was like denying the divinity of Christ or something, or no, no, it was divine denying like the human nature of Christ. So we kneel at the word became flesh to it, it just shows you how the liturgy itself forms a person. We kneel at the word became flesh because you don't need to catechize somebody with books and read them all this stuff, you just go to the liturgy and live the liturgy out, and that actually catechizes you better than any CCD program ever will.

SPEAKER_00 59:07

Completely. I mean, it what is the what is the nature of the mass? It's a sacrifice. And why do we why do why did Christ have to sacrifice for our sins? And why do we well, you know, if we have sin, we should have guilt. And so we talk about all these things as traditionalists. These things are completely foreign concepts to those who regularly attend a novice order church because it's it's taken out of the mass. They take it out of the mass so they don't they don't hear it every Sunday, they don't talk about it every Sunday, they don't reflect on it every Sunday. They take all of that out and replace it with Jewish table prayers and Protestant prayers and uh assembly theology, which is where you know we all get together at the Mass for fellowship um and community rather than to be at a sacrifice.

SPEAKER_02 59:51

And the irony about that is there's no less welcoming place than like a Catholic parish, like a Nova Zorda parish. Like you go, everybody's sitting in the aisle, right? They're sitting at the aisle, they don't even want to let you in. They don't want to, they want to be able to the second that the second they're done receiving, they're out the door. Nobody's nobody's there's a community. Oh, we're having a communal meal. Everybody just can't wait to get the heck out of there and go home. It's such a bizarre thing. Whereas at a traditional parish, they have like once a month, they have these gatherings after mass in the parish hall, and everybody gets to know each other. Because you're actually what's happened with the with the Latin mass in recent years is that you've had a lot of Novus Ordo Catholics who took their faith seriously, discovered it, and now you have these high concentrations of people who were taking their faith seriously already, desperate to meet other people meet taking their faith seriously. So you have these high concentrations of people who just are on fire for God and they're they're on fire for the Catholic faith, and they can't wait to build a community.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:53

Oh, I know. I every week I'm just shocked about how many more how much how many more holy people there are out there in the world than I am, you know. I and I I I get that reminder every single week at mass, and I look around and see how much love people have for God and and all the stuff they're doing for the church. And I'm like, man, I feel I feel bad because I don't, I'm not doing nearly as much as these guys are doing. And you just see that faith um come out on them. But I have to give you credit because you said something like maybe two or three years ago. I I mean, you said something that really hit home to me. I never forgot it. So I'll give you credit for this because you said, man, the first time I went to traditional Latin mass, that's when everything Scott Hahn was teaching made sense to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

You said that line, and I was like, Yes, that it was like that you like you were you were learning at Catholic answers and through Scott Hahn that this is where heaven meets earth, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:49

Yeah, you kept talking about that, and you kept talking about the sacrifice and and and and the sacrifice and the third cup and the fourth, the fourth cup, and all of these things, and you hear it, and you're like, Oh, that's kind of interesting. That's kind of interesting. And then you go to traditional Latin mass, and you're right, you're immediately like, aha, now that actually all makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:07

I'm telling you, I never understood how like you read about the saints who had like a devotion to the mass, and they would just like they just had this devotion to the mass, and they would go three, four times a day and uh just to go sit and at the holy sacrifice. Well, Padre Pio while during the consecration would just be caught up in ecstasy for two hours during a consecration. You're like, how I don't, I don't know, man. I don't I try, but I'm I'm just like it it it feels like bizarre when everybody's doing the the holding hands. I know we like we've talked about this ad nauseum over the years and stuff, but man, is it's like some of the stuff they do at the at your average parish just so cringe.

Novus Ordo War Stories And Formation

SPEAKER_00 1:02:48

It's not it's because it's not it's not the Catholic Mass. Yeah, it that's what that's the that's the problem, that's the disconnect, you know. And um, so it's just a totally different thing. And that's that's what that's to circle back. I mean, that's what Vatican II wanted. Uh, that was Sacrosanctum Chili, and because in 1962, that was the missile being used, and they said we're here to reform the mass. Well, they're reforming that that mass, that's what it was. So the fact that we come up with the Noah Sordo Mass now, everybody's like, oh, Vatican II didn't call for that. That's what a you know, that's an abuse, blah blah blah. I'm like, um, hello, they didn't need to call for every specific change, they just needed to call for reform in the first place, and that's what they did. And they said that we need more active participation, we're gonna change the rights, we're going to allow for non-Latch, we're not gonna allow for non-Latin chant, even though that may have uh importance.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:48

How do you think you'd have how do you think you'd have handled growing up through those changes? Like if you were formed in the Latin mass and then went through those changes, like because I I like you have to give grace to the people that were going through it because you're raised in this place where you're taught like obedience to the Pope is everything, and the Pope is telling you this stuff is good, and you're like, I mean, you saw like 50% of the people stopped attending attending mass at that time, and and you know, part of it is because the culture is going through a cultural revolution, and from what the whole world is under a spell, but I'm actually fascinated by it, and I I actually one of my projects at some point, which I'll probably never get around to doing, is to go back and actually kind of write like a mini book on how people were responding at the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:37

But from what I can tell, I mean, because my dad was in Catholic high school and right during Vatican II, so I could go back and look at his yearbooks, and they were talking about Vatican II in the yearbooks. They're like, Yeah, this is the second Vatican Council, and and um, and and from what I can tell is like a lot of the younger generation were very excited about it. Uh, there's even some clips on YouTube you can find where NBC was talking about the new mass, and they go around and interview Catholics. What do you think about this? What do you think about this? And they were all like, Well, it's kind of weird, but you know, we're excited for it and make it more modern. And there seemed to be that was a general attitude. And I think the older generation, like my grandparents, were did not like it, were not comfortable, but didn't feel they could say anything. And I think they suffered in silence a lot of them. I I wish I could talk to them about it now because I I would love to know what they were really thinking.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:32

But you well, the irony is they call us rigid backwardists, but the the Nova Soda really is this time capsule from the 1970s. It's like the the the 1960s and 1970s, it's just this time capsule trapped in there because what they were doing is getting caught up in the spirit of the age. Right. And you you can see why guys like Baron and all the even like uh Cardinal Mueller, like these guys still can't let go because for them, like. The the council was everything in the and like they see the disastrous outcome from it, but they're still like it's like this program they have in their mind that they just can't get out of where it's like no, the council was good, and it's no matter what we have to say the council was good because to them Lefebvre was the enemy. Lefebvre was this wicked, uh you know, schismatic enemy, and every single thing Lefebvre said came true and came to pass. Man, it's like that guy had some crazy spiritual insights during that time, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:34

And the problem was is it introduced the concept of the mask can be updated. So yeah, so that's why you see now it's like, oh, we're gonna update the rights to be Amazonian to the African to all these things, or we're gonna even update it now to meet our modern culture, because the concept that you can just change the mask to meet the modern times was already introduced it with Vatican II. And now once you introduce the concept, then there's never ending change. So if they come out and change the novice order tomorrow, I wouldn't be surprised. Not at all, because that's what that's what they did in in 1970, like you said, to the 1970s. Well, they need to update it now to the 2025s, I mean or 2026. So the hip hop is bad.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:17

I mean, yeah, the hip hop mass. Yeah, I don't know. The I say I wouldn't say that the novice orto is inherently dangerous. Like, I don't know. It's like I can't, I can't, I just can't go there. I think like if it's celebrated properly, then it's not. It's not that it's uh I don't know, it's a hard question. I mean, but I don't think that means Satan is one, and I don't think it means the gates of hell have prevailed either. Um, I don't know. I I kind of just have more of uh um uh just like a uh a humility about it. I'm like, I don't know. I just know I just know when I was going to it, it was poor formation for me, and there was no better formation for me than getting into a traditional liturgy.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:00

Well, that's the thing. The the thing is is we can't we can't ignore it because we can't just ignore it because we have to, we are responsible for forming our families. Yeah, it's our job to decide where we're gonna go to mass. And truth be told, all of these people that say, Oh, well, there's nothing, no problem with the Novus Ordo, you should just go there because the church approves it. It's real funny how they shop around the Novus Ordo parishes, isn't it? Yeah, like going to the parish that you live in. That's what the rule is. Oh, but you don't want to go down there because the guy is playing the guitar, the priest plays the guitar in between scriptural readings. Well, why don't you do that?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:40

It's I brought that up with Ian because EMJ his position is that like the Latin Mass is causing a schism because people are driving an hour to go to the Latin mass.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:50

Yeah, he says you got to go to the one down the street. It doesn't matter how bad they are, it doesn't matter what they preach. That's actually if they abuse the Eucharist.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:58

That that's gotta be his position, right? And I'm like, no, Mike, I'm like, Michael, you actually were the one who gave me this argument. It's like because I learned this argument from him where it's like the Novus Ordo itself put such variety out there that like your local one could have been like a polka mass, and then the other one. So you are I don't care if you're just a typical Novus Ordo Catholic, you're doing the same thing we are. We're going to the best mass we can. It might just happen to be an hour away and it's a traditional mass, but every Catholic is going to the best liturgy they can because they don't want to go to some terrible liturgy unless you don't care about the faith.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:33

That's right. No, yeah, that's absolutely right. They're there's they're they're hypocrites, honestly, because they say, well, just go to a reverent one, go to a reverent novus order. It's like, no, wait a second. You can't sit here and say that the Novus Ordo mass isn't is in some way could cause harm when you're telling people that the non-reverent one does. You you're telling people to go shop around, but don't go to the don't go to the traditional Latin mass because that causes schism. It's like no, you're you're supposed to go to the one down the street. And why is he doing that?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:04

Like, sometimes I think like those those people who have the unicorn novus order, some of the most selfish people in the world, because they're the ones telling everybody you gotta go to the Novus Ordo. It's like, oh, you happen to have one with Gregorian chant and incense and no altar girls, and you're telling every like you think that's the norm. And it's like, dude, it's a it's a liturgical wasteland by me. If you went to my local parish, you wouldn't last 10 minutes at my local parish. I'm telling you, it is abysmal. So it's not around and they shopped around for that, Reverend.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:35

Of course, they did.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:37

They shopped around for the ordinary people, are even worse. I'm like the ordinary people. I'm like, you guys are the true schismatics, the ordinarian. You out of your mind, you guys are worse than the SSPX. I don't want to hear no, you guys shouldn't even have canonical regularity. Freaking ordinarian. I think ordinary is the biggest problem in the church right now, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:56

I'm so sick of hearing about the ordinary stupid ordinary. No, you need to go to the Novus Hard of Mass down the street and listen to the guitars, and you know, you can answer to God for subjecting your children to that as the sacrifice of the holy mass. I'm not willing to do it. And um, right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:15

Ryan went to the Cardinal Supage Mass at White Sox Stadium as injected with the endgame Novasoto Mass that scandalized me into the TLM exclusively. Instantly.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:29

Do they come and burn all the disco records at the uh you know at the end of the mask?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:33

But that but no, but like you look back, like I remember when uh when John Paul II was doing those World Youth Days, and it's like everybody was so excited about it. Mother Angelica was just horrified, right? Mother Angelica was just like, look at what they're doing to our Lord, and it's like that woman saw it all, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:52

We gotta do we gotta do a whole show on the 1993 World Youth Day Mass in Denver. I have I that because I I lived here through all of it, and uh I I was even blessed by John Paul too here here in uh for that world youth.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:06

He came to Shea Stadium. He came to Shea Stadium in the 90s.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:09

Oh, did he?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:11

No, but that's such just like a such a pinnacle in people's like novus or life. Is that is that World Youth Day? Father Dave Nicks, Father Dave Nix went to World Youth Day in Denver and it led to his vocation.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:23

Uh or something like that. Led to his vocation, maybe not, but like it he went to that and he was excited about it. Like he it was a young man. Oh, yeah, everybody was everybody was excited about it. Father Dave Nix started out like Father Dave Nix started out just like a typical normie, and like he went through the parish, uh they went through the diocesan structure, and then as he starts coming to tradition, his bishop was like, No, you he's like like he wouldn't give people communion on the hand and stuff, and then he kind of got he got you know oh no.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:52

That's all true. Well, he and I, you know, he and I went to the same high school together.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:55

Yeah, I heard he did tell me that you guys were.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:59

We didn't hang out because he was like kind of a hippie guy, and I was like, I was like the Rush Limbaugh conservative, so we hung out in different circles in high school. Um, so it's funny we ended up, but yeah, no, we we both just grew up in that whole thing. Same same graduating class, or you're the same class.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:13

Same that is so funny, man. Yeah, I love Father Nick because I talk I'll talk, I'll get on the phone with him and we'll just talk for like an hour and a half, two hours sometimes. I'm like, like father, I gotta go, man. I gotta go.

Parish Shopping And The Reverence Problem

SPEAKER_00 1:13:24

Yeah, so we grew up in that same milieu together.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:27

It was just oh so you guys went to the same high school, but you weren't like you weren't in the same crew, like you guys didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:34

No, no, he was the hippie crew, he was the you know, he was the the hippie guys. Um, whereas uh I was the Rush Limbaugh president of the conservative Republican Club and all of that stuff totally totally different circles.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:48

Well, I was too though, because like I used to like I I started working my job in construction at like 17 and I would drive into work with my dad and I would listen to Rush every single day. The reason I probably do this podcast is from listening to Rush with my dad driving into like I always wanted to do radio, I didn't I didn't start doing the podcast because I wanted to fix the crap in the church. Started doing the podcast, I wanted to do radio, like I love the idea of doing radio, and it's like, oh, like some construction guy could just throw a camera on and start doing radio now. Yeah, and that's what got me into doing this. And I just I never I never liked the uh like the stodgy approach that most of the guys in the Catholic world were taking, where I was like, you have to present yourself as this like uber holy guy, and I was just like, that's just not me. I have to like, I don't know, man. I'm doing the best I can. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:35

Well rush, I mean Rush, I mean, he what he always said was what content is king, right? He always said content is keen and you got to be entertaining. Um and that's that's what his whole whole success was his entire life. It was the and it was the same thing. I mean, it what he was doing in 1993 was exactly the same thing he was doing the last year of his show. Yeah, it never even the bumper music was the same, nothing even even when he was like on his on his pills and stuff, he's still knocked out when he was on his pills. Remember one day he shows up because like I'm gonna be gone for nine months. I've got a copy of an addiction, I'll be back in nine months, they'll be guest hosts. See us.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:13

So I was talking to Stephen Cox about this too, though, because um, I I was I was trying to explain to Steven, like it what you're doing, you're gonna like the what what we're doing here has to be entertaining, like it can't just be you have the right position, it has to be entertaining because people are choosing to spend an hour and a half with you, whatever. It's like you have to put on an entertaining program. So it can't this is I think this is one of the big problems in the sede world, and I was goofing on them today about it because they were saying I could never leave, I could never come to the conclusion of set of a contism because I would lose my audience that I would lose money. It's like, first off, there's not much money in streaming, guys. Like, really, there's not. But if I came to the SETA position, I would make the SEDA position interesting and I would bring people to it, but it's I'm just not there. It has nothing to do with me like taking the R position because I I I uh I have more connections that way and I have a bigger audience. It has nothing to do with that. First off, like Trad Inc. wants nothing to do with me. It's not like I'm being invited to the CIC, it's not like I'm getting any speaking engagements. I'm kind of in like an island on my own over here. There's you know, I have whoever I like and comes on my show, and that's it. I have no association with any of the guys who are in that world. I just come on and I and I try to be entertaining, and I don't think the CES have somebody that's like entertaining because most of the guys that come to that position seem to be very autistic.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:40

I know speaking generalities, but well, I and I mean obviously there's I think a lot of them, just like a lot of um people who are in the SSPX, are kind of opposed to even going online like we are and talking about this stuff, you know. There's something weird about it in a in a way, but I'm like you. I mean, I just got into it because I wanted to promote tradition and the traditional at mass because when I discovered it, I'm like, whoa, I just want to get out there and talk about it. And then and then it just developed over time where like some weird news story came out of the Vatican, and I'm like, oh well, I can see that's not what the church teaches. Here's what the church teaches, and here's what they said, and then it just kind of kept going for the point where I got where I was like responding to every single thing that came out of Rome, and that got to be a little too much, and so I I had to say you have more fun on a show like this where you're just kind of like hanging out and talking.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:32

Like, it's a to me, I'd rather do this. Like, I knew first off, I did absolutely no prep for this conversation with you because I knew we would just have a good battle, like conversation is not the easiest thing in the world, and and you have to be good at a conversation, you have to know how to steer it, you have to know how to know when your turn is to talk and jump in. And it's there's a lot of guys who do this that aren't good conversationalists, you know. And being a good conversationalist has a lot to do with who's successful. Well, that's that's why I like Kevin Davis a lot. I I like his show a lot. Um shout out to Kevin. He sent me my uh my my mug for the Catholic Family podcast. Shout out to Kevin Davis, very good dude, man. I like him. Um normal, like a normal guy. Like I can sit and hang with Kevin, he's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:22

And I really enjoy Louis Varecchio. And in Louis Vareccio, Louis Varecchio is such an interesting story because he used to be super novusordo, like super Vatican II man. I think he even wrote a book on Vatican II.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:33

Like, I have to hear his story. That's actually funny.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:37

I you should have him on. I I his story is so interesting to me, and it it resonates with me so much, you know. Um, so yeah, I have no ill will whatsoever towards state of a contest. It just gets annoying when you you make a point, you know they agree with you, and then they're like, you're just stupid because you you don't think you don't come to the same conclusion as me. And then it's like, yeah, I gotta tune out because those guys don't do that sort of thing at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:02

If your podcast is just obsessing on the novus or like there has to be a little variety in there. There's only so much of that you can do. It's like you like you just said, you were like, you know, I was responding to everything out of Rome, and that kind of got tedious. Like, you have to switch it up a little, you have to you have to add some variety, and you have to have guests on, and you have to talk to other people and get different perspectives. And honestly, having people on you disagree with but can be cordial with, and it doesn't turn into something vitriolic. Like, I know me and you don't probably line up exactly on every position, but you we both have goodwill towards each other, and it's like we're both recognizing this is such a crazy time. If you come to a different conclusion, it's not doesn't mean the person is a bad will, doesn't mean they're not a Catholic. It means, dude, it's nuts, like the freaking church is collapsing around us. You guys not see it.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:51

Well, everybody sees it, that's the thing, right? Like I think everybody in our circles, even state of a contest, SSPX, FSSP, I mean, they can see what's happening, they can see the church is falling apart, and then there's some people, yeah, who want to pretend like it's not falling apart and they want to gaslight you and tell you everything's okay. But even those people I know don't don't believe that in the truth. They they couldn't. They couldn't.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:18

This is a good point. All right, so uh there's an angle that you're not considering from the person's own mouth. I know that some big names in the trap world are ignoring other that I don't get. Okay, so one thing I do like you you see, like Michael Matt just pretends these people don't exist, and you see, like guys like that, just they'll just ignore it and like I will never do that. If somebody's saying something about me, it's like we're fighting it out. Let's go. I'm gonna I'm gonna bring you on the show, or I'm gonna like I'd rather fight it out with somebody that's that's that's saying stuff about me. Like when Chris Jackson said I was Catholic, he didn't even call me tradic, he called me Catholic.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:56

I love Chris Jackson, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:58

I do too, but dude, he I think he missed what I was doing in that show. That could be I I wasn't saying just ignore what's going on in Rome. That wasn't what I was saying at all. I was talking to guys like Nick who seem to like they cut they come on the internet and all they do is complain. And I'm like, I'm like, dude, look to the martyrs, look into the early church. They would go into church in the catacombs and they they gloried in their suffering, and you're complaining because you're in a church hole, you're in a Knights of Columbus hole, like, man up. I was just trying to inspire people to like take their faith, like, dude, the suffering that we're enduring is an opportunity to be a saint, and because we can go through this crisis and sit and pout and complain about it, or we can become holy through it. Like, there is an angle of we can become holy. It doesn't mean don't discuss it. I'm not like I wasn't trying to say you can't discuss it, but you can't pout about it and cry about it and say the church hurt me and this and that. Like, you can't do that. You gotta like if if your temperament can't handle that, you have to be a man about it and recognize, like, okay, maybe I don't belong in this conversation. But guys like you, can't Chris Jackson, like you guys seem to have the temperament where you could discuss this stuff that doesn't harm your faith.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:08

Well, and and I do think there is a role for for wanting to do something about it. I mean, if you see if you see uh injustice and you see uh uh uh attacks on the faith, attacks on the blessed Virgin Mary, whatever the case is, I mean, yeah, there is there is a role for standing up and and doing something about it. I think a lot of those guys, like Michael Matt and uh a lot of the other ones, especially when when when Leo was elected, they're basically saying, you need to go go in your closet, shut the door, pray some more. You're not holy enough, and don't worry about what's happening outside. And I've never felt that was the Catholic way to do things either. No, definitely not. The Catholic way is to go out and fight for the faith and fight for Christ and fight for the Blessed Virgin Mary, uh, doing doing the things that you're good at. If you're not good at talking on YouTube, then don't do it. Yeah, you're boring and no one's gonna listen to you, then go do something else.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:04

And more than that, if you can't handle on like criticism, you shouldn't be doing it because you're gonna get email. I mean, do you do you know what people say about me? Like that you I got these two little annoying sete kids, the sede picante and Tommy, the two of them, they're relentless, they're relentless, and I'm just like, I don't care, like, let them go.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:23

I have a couple trolls that harass me. Like, whatever. I mean, because when I I used to do politics, man, before this, I was fighting, I was dealing with the same thing in the Republican Party when I used to be a Republican, and they used to say all the same things. Like, a couple of the comment, don't be a circular firing squad. You can't criticize other Republicans no matter what. You don't you remember Reagan's 11th commandment? Thou shalt not criticize a Republican. This is the stuff they say in the inner circles of the Republican Party. And I remember telling them, like, you guys have no balls. What are you guys talking about? You gotta get out there and fight for what's right, including against people who claim to be on your team. Because nothing, no truth will never get out that way unless you but you have to have you have to have a uh steel spine for some of this. That is true, and not everybody's meant for that.

Podcasting Media Temperament And Closing

SPEAKER_02 1:24:14

People say you're groiper, dude. I wish it, I wish it was a Friday night. I wish it was a Friday night, and I and I went, or I wish we had a little more. I have to get some sleep tonight. No problem. We'll do this again. You're you're just a fun guy to talk to, man. And I could we could do this for hours. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, anytime, guys. Go subscribe to Catholic Esquire on YouTube. Uh, he's also on Twitter. Substack in YouTube, yeah. Did you take a break from Twitter for Lynn? I haven't seen oh no, I'm on Twitter. Yeah, I'm on X2. Yeah, I didn't I haven't seen you in the last couple days. I thought maybe you uh oh no, I'm on there, yeah. And uh they and he'll and Esquire will be on Stephen Cox's show tomorrow. They're having a round table. American Reform will be on there also. Yep. Um, Steven, I Steven's a good friend of mine. I can I consider Steven a good friend, and him and I have different positions. Like it's okay, like we can disagree on stuff. I want to see Steven's channel do well, I want to see your channel do well. It's like we should all be lifting each other up, even if we don't agree on everything, because like that's dude, there's just nothing that that that like I don't know. We should all just be on each other's side, man. We're all Catholic, we all love Jesus Christ, we all love the Catholic faith. Support each other, stop ragging on each other, unless it's like something like critical you gotta discuss, but you know, be there for each other, man. The we'll know us by our love. Um, Catholic Esquire, thank you so much for hanging tonight, man. It was a fun time. Thanks for having me. All right, we'll see you next time, guys.

unknown 1:25:37

And then you're gonna be able to