LIVE: Joshua Charles & Anthony Take YOUR Toughest Questions

If you could summarize the end times in three words, here’s our pick: Restrain. Release. Return. We open Scripture with the Fathers and track Revelation 20 as a map of history—Satan bound so the nations can be evangelized, the saints reigning as the apostolic Church governs, and a brief release that surrounds the camp of the saints before the Lord returns. That lens turns the chaos of our moment into something legible. The fall of paganism once silenced oracles and broke magic; the reverse image explains why occultism resurges, sanctuaries close, and temporal power shrugs at anything higher than itself.

We connect the dragon’s binding with Jesus’ “strong man” parable and Paul’s “restrainer” in 2 Thessalonians 2—what the Fathers often saw, in part, as the Roman order transfigured by the Gospel, a Christendom that held the line until it didn’t. From there we take up the hard anchors: the Fathers are unanimous that Antichrist will halt public sacrifice, that he will be received by the Jews as a false messiah, and that the Jews will later convert. On the Temple, the tradition isn’t unanimous—some read “temple of God” as the Church itself, others expect a rebuilt sanctuary—but either path exposes the same deception. Along the way we revisit Athanasius on the oracles going mute, Augustine and Bede on Ticonius’s anti-church growing inside the Church, and why an apostate civilization can be worse than a pagan one.

Then the lines get bolder through live caller questions: Is COVID’s global suspension of public worship a rehearsal for the prophesied ban? How should we weigh claims about Trump, a rebuilt Temple, or a “great monarch”? What’s the right way to compare the TLM and the Novus Ordo without dodging reverence? Where does patriotism fit when you feel no pride? And how do men carry real ambition without pride—working hard, staying ready, and letting God choose the moment?

If you’re hungry for clarity without hype, this conversation gives you a sturdy frame, a reading list to get started with the Fathers, and practical steps for holiness in confusing times. Subscribe, share this with a friend who’s asking the same questions, and leave a review to help more listeners find the show.

Transcript

SPEAKER_09 0:11

This is the calling show with Joshua Shaw.

SPEAKER_07 0:21

Go ahead, caller. I'm listening. Uh does your butt hurt? There's a big crack in it.

SPEAKER_08 0:35

I cannot believe I let Anthony talk me into this. We had no idea what was coming. You literally said, I have no idea what's on the video. So that was quite good. That was quite good.

SPEAKER_19 0:50

Oh, we love what we've got to do.

SPEAKER_08 0:52

And it caught the essence quite well.

SPEAKER_19 0:53

You love bringing your spotless reputation back down to my level a little bit. Oh my goodness. Oh man, Joshua Charles, man. It seems like people are very excited about this one. They're gonna be so disappointed when I don't give the link out. We just spend the whole time talking.

SPEAKER_08 1:09

Oh no, we we definitely have to have people come in. We're that's fun part.

SPEAKER_19 1:13

I would talk and you would read the chat like last time. That worked out so well. So you still haven't got no Mr.

SPEAKER_08 1:21

Man's Man is like a total woman on this. My goodness.

SPEAKER_18 1:25

Somebody actually somebody they were joking around in here before we think.

SPEAKER_08 1:29

Um you know, I repented, I changed my behavior, it hasn't happened again, but here you are, still months later, talking about it.

SPEAKER_19 1:39

I'd use different words if we were in private, but um, yeah, no, somebody said uh now Josh will actually be able to hear us and not not get distracted by the comment section. They were starting in early with this one. Um, anyway, um, yeah, so uh Josh and I I mean how often do we talk on the phone? We talk on the phone almost daily at this point, right?

SPEAKER_08 2:02

Uh unfortunately, yeah.

Friendship, Social Media Spats, And Loyalty

SPEAKER_19 2:04

No, it's not quite daily, but it's it's it's pretty often, yeah. Yeah, it's pretty frequent. It's like um, I don't know. Josh and I kind of like watch world events and we're both just like, oh my goodness, what's going on right now? And it's just uh it's it's one of those things. Well, especially because Rob uh he loves to uh uh shake his head and face palm anytime I talk about kind of my theories. But I know you and I discuss a lot of these things pretty often, and uh I figured this would be a good show for people to probably uh pop on and ask us questions and stuff. But I did happen to see uh a couple of things today on X I was very happy about. I saw Brian Holdsworth and you both came and uh defended Mike Pantile against some of like the more ridiculous accusations that were being made against them. And it's like because Mike has uh done things with Gordon, it tends to the people tend to do the guilt by association thing. And it's like if you actually uh pay attention to Mike's content, Mike does not do the same thing Gordon does, it's it's it's very different. Most of his YouTube content is like focused on spirituality and uh digging into the saints and stuff like that. So I was really happy to see both of you guys jump in and defend him.

SPEAKER_08 3:21

Yeah, Mike's a friend, and um I mean, as you well know, uh I've talked with you privately and sometimes publicly that I don't always like what you say, but you're my friend, you're my brother. And um that's just you know, it's kind of interesting. It it it made me think about the nature of like male podcasts versus female podcasts, yeah. And female podcasts seem to be this never-ending carnival of self-affirmation and and and male, no, seriously, they are. It's like you are you are that's not fat, that's heaven fluff or whatever they say, and you know, whatever it may be. And and you know, it's like no, we have honest conversations with one another. Um, I don't agree with everything you say. I think you need to be careful, but I agree with a lot of it. But you are one of the most loyal friends I I have. Um and so Mike, you know, is a good guy. Do I agree with absolutely everything he says, absolutely every every way he says? No, of course not. But he has he's but he he is focusing on the saints, he's a convert to the Catholic faith. He's brought his wife, who is not even Christian beforehand, into it, his whole kid, all of his kids. He is helping many, many men fight the very vices that these women will sometimes point out are so you know pervasive, and they are pornography and gooning as the as the young and say, you know, all that kind of stuff. Mike is is addressing all that head on. So, you know, the fact that he presents views on feminism that you know would have been scrutable to 1900 years of our ancestors. No, no, no, that that's too far. We can only hear and accept what what we've accepted in the last hundred years when civilization has been at its most apostate and antichristic stage in millennia. So it's just it's silly, it's childish, and and um yeah, it's unfortunate.

SPEAKER_19 5:16

Yeah, uh I could because you know what it is, uh, to see a guy like you and a guy like Holdsworth, like it's expected of me to get into the riffraff, and I mean I made the video about Kyle yesterday, and so like people people kind of expect that from me, but when it comes from a guy like you and Holdsworth, you guys are both very reserved on social media. You don't uh you're not bombastic like I am. Um so it was good. I think it was good that especially uh Melody Lyons, who just seems to seems like her whole life is consumed by just uh seething at random men, uh whatever. So it's like to to see it coming from you and Brian was was very refreshing because it was taken seriously as opposed to someone like me coming at it and they just kind of brush it off as if as if I'm just one of those guys in that sphere.

SPEAKER_08 6:06

Well, you know, she issued an apology for at least some of the things she said, which is is good. Um, you know, for me, it's always I hate the personnel or personal conflicts and um you know, eternal Christendom. It's all about getting people into these sources. Um oh, I just realized I hadn't put some of my books back. That's why they're all tilting over there. But um, and and those sources are very, very clear on many aspects of um male-female relations, particular, you know, especially husband-wife, um, that a lot of people today are just not on board with. And my responsibility is not to get them on board with it. Um, that's their responsibility, uh, with God's grace. My responsibility is to simply share the treasures of the great tradition as well as I can. And and when people make um some of these outrageous assertions, um, you know, I'm happy to simply let that tradition speak for itself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_19 7:11

You uh so really like our first conversations that we even started getting into from the from like when I initially met you, uh, I was actually introduced to you by Steve Cunningham. Steve Cunningham, I'll give him a shout-out. Was it really? Steve Cunningham introduced us. So Steve Cunningham two two new books. Um uh litany of humility, and this is probably one of his crazy uh break the nation apart books. But if you guys uh are so inclined, go to uh census fidelity impress and uh pick up Steve's Steve's most recent books. Um Steve Cunningham introduced us. Um he had you on to discuss the first book that when you when you converted, you had published um uh a a series of essays in uh I forgot what the name of the book was, but I I read it and you just basically republished something by I think it was a the original argument in the Federalist Papers. No, no, no, no. When you first converted, it was about about Freemasonry infiltrating the church, the um the antichrist.

SPEAKER_08 8:11

Yeah, no, a long uh yeah, um they were a series of lectures at first, but yeah, Monsignor George Dillon, um the war of the antichrist with the church and Christian civilization.

SPEAKER_19 8:20

Yeah, so you can you came into the church in 2020, right? 2019, and then your first year as a Catholic, all of a sudden they start shutting down my first Easter as a Catholic, yeah. Yeah, so like right from then you started having like you started seeing things in a I think in a different lens than the average convert does, right?

Defending A Friend And Modern Feminism Critique

SPEAKER_08 8:42

Yeah, well, why don't we give people a sense of what we're hoping to cover? I mean, you know, I entered this stream prayerfully, I know you did the same. So wherever it goes, it goes, especially with the questions. But um, we wanted to give kind of a big picture of end time theology. Now, end time eschatology, as it's often called, you know, is very it's the most speculative of all the the ologies, I guess you could say. Um, but I do think it it is one of those things that as time goes on, aspects of it are clarified. Um, prophecy is is much clearer the closer you get to its fulfillment or afterward. And so I wanted to offer a framer for people. I mean, we've talked about a lot, but I think just kind of reading through it in some some parts of scripture we can cover pretty fast would help. Um, because it I think uh one thing I always try to do is take um complicated multivariable things and reduce it to an easily understandable essence. And then you fill in the details, right? Um, and so I actually think we can are you okay if we do that really quickly.

SPEAKER_19 9:48

Take us on a journey, man. I want I want people to get an idea that because they hear me kind of rant on my my theories quite a bit on this show, but I want them to hear uh a little bit more basis in the fathers and scripture from you so they they kind of see I'm not just you know making things up.

SPEAKER_08 10:06

Yeah, well, we'll make it pretty quick. Um, just because I know I think the most fun part, you know, will be the the back and forth with questions and whatnot, um, and hopefully the most edifying. But I I basically contend that um that Apocalypse 20 is a grand outline of history since the incarnation of our Lord. And so the the grand outline is this it describes, and we'll go over it really quick, describes a great dragon being bound and thrown into a pit. Then it describes a period of thrones being set up for those to whom judgment has been committed. That's verse four, and that's the apostles and their successors. Um, and then at verse seven, it says um that the dragon is unleashed for a brief period. And it doesn't say the brief period in um verse seven, it says it in verse three. So, but you put the two together. He's unleashed for a brief period, and he brings his hordes, you know, antichrist, etc., against the church. And then our Lord returns, the Antichrist is destroyed, end of history, you know, day of judgment, etc. So I think um this is very, very important because I think the the the other there are several places in scripture that are much more detailed about the end times, particularly Daniel, obviously our Lord's Olive discourse toward the end of um the three synoptic gospels, uh, and then St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2. So this binding of the dragon and his brief unleashing, I think are very, very helpful tools. They're clues that we need to be looking for something where there is some sort of restraint that's imposed, and there's a then there's a restraint that is released. So it's very, very simple. Um, and sure enough, that's what we find um in many, many parts of scripture. So why don't we just go to Apocalypse 20 really quick? I'm reading, I haven't gotten the personal size yet, so I've got my full, you know, hefty again. And then of course I'm only in apocalypse, so I've only got this little bit to work with on this side here. Um, but here's apocalypse 20. So let's do the first period. Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he sees the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it, and sealed it over him that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were ended. After that he must be left out for a little while. So there's that there's that little while I was mentioning being in verse three. Okay, so there's actually not a whole lot of patristic commentary on apocalypse. Um, but of the commentaries we have, many see this angel. Angel just means messenger. Many see this angel as actually being Christ, and he binds uh Satan. Now, despite the lack of ubiquitous uh patristic commentary on the apocalypse, you do find this language of Christ binding Satan and the demons replete throughout the fathers. They connect it to something else in the Gospels as well. I think it's connected with this. I'll get to that in a second. Uh well, the hint binding the strong man to plunder his goods. We'll get back to that in a second. All right, let's get to verse four. So the the dragon is bound. Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. And as Catholics, we know that those are the apostles and their successors. Also I saw the soul souls, excuse me, of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshipped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection. Believe that's death in a state of grace, essentially. And then when the saints die in a state of grace, they are reigning with Christ from heaven for a thousand years. Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection, right? If you do not share in that first resurrection, meaning death in a state of grace, um, it's not going to go good for good for anything. Baptism. Yeah. Well, no, not just baptism. It's it's it's the first resurrection. So a death of something has to occur. So it's dying in a state of grace. Um, blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection. Over such the second death, that'd be throwing thrown into hell into hell for final combined condemnation, has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years. Okay. Then we get to verse seven. And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. So then the rest, then it goes into the day of judgment, whatnot. So, so we see this broad pattern of Satan being bound, the period of the thrones, and the Catholic consensus, it wasn't actually like this in the first few centuries. There were a number of fathers who did believe that this millennium was, frankly, more like a Protestant idea, uh, that is more much more common among some Protestants, not all Protestants, um, and uh that the Christ would come and reign in person for a literal thousand years, etc. But the settled tradition of the church on this point is ah millennialism, which is that this thousand years is the period of the church. And so these thrones that are being set up, I'm I don't have the chapters right in front of me. I've written some uh articles about it on eternal Christendom, but Jesus explicitly tells the apostles that they will, you know, I can actually find it really quick.

SPEAKER_19 15:58

Well, what's interesting is like well you find while you're looking for it, I'll I'll I'll I'll talk. The um the the the whole idea of like what when Protestants talk about like uh the end times and the reign of Christ, they think it's at the end of time, but no, it is this period where the church cover like the church spreads the gospel and covers the earth, essentially. And you see the altars of of of of the Catholic faith just being erected all over, and as that's happening, you're seeing the pagan gods being bound in in the depths, like you're talking about.

Enter Eschatology: Goals For The Conversation

Revelation 20 As History’s Outline

SPEAKER_08 16:31

And I want to and I want to get to that in a second. That no, I completely agree. So here's here's this is from uh Matthew 19, 28. Um, Jesus said to them, the apostles, truly I say say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. So that's one place where the thrones are mentioned. Then Luke 22, 28 through 30, this is Jesus talking, you are those who have continued with me in my trials. As my father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint you, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. So this is the only other place where thrones are mentioned in the New Testament. So I think it's it's very significant. Now, Jesus makes a very key phrase, he offers a very key phrase in the first one I read, Matthew 19, 28. Uh, truly I say to you, in the new world. Now, what's this new world he's talking about? He says, When the Son of Man shall sit on his glorious throne. We know what that's referring to. Just you can look at the article. This is becoming Catholic number 39. So this is in the apostolic succession section. Um when he begins to sit on his throne, took place at the ascension. So Jesus is describing the reality that he is going to bestow upon the apostles at his ascension, because at his ascension is when he, as the final son of David, takes his spot as the final Davidic king. Okay. And you can find, you know, we provide all the verses in that article to show that this is the case. So this new world that he talks about begins at the ascension. And this is the world in which the apostles are set up on thrones. As Catholics, this should be, you know, you know, obvious to us what this is. Cathedrals, cathedra, throne, the seat of the bishop, who are the successors of the apostles, preeminently successors of Saint Peter, etc. So um, so so the period of this is why the church kind of settled on an ah millennial interpretation of verses four through um through six and apocalypse twenty. So then the question is, well, what this is there's there's so much to get into, and I I know this is primarily, you know, I want I really do want to get to questions. I think that'll be fun and edifying know you to too, but but that's why I think Apocalypse 20 is so incredibly helpful because then you think, okay, well, what happened when Satan was bound? And we have a whole lot of testimony from the church fathers about what happened. Not only the conversion, well, first of all, well, okay, I'll come back to that. Well, okay, let's start first. What happened with the people who were initially predestined by God or or called by God, that'd be a better word, a more precise word, to receive their Messiah, the Jews. They were given 40 years roughly to repent. They did not, the temple was destroyed, precisely as Jesus predicted. And Jesus is very clear. He gives a parable about this vineyard that God sets up. He gives to these tenants, he calls them tenants, and he keeps sending people to check in and they keep killing them. Then he sends his son, then they kill the son, and then he comes and punishes them and kicks them out and gives it to new tenants who will produce fruit. And there are other parables where Christ is crystal crystal clear that that is now going to the Gentiles. Um, but the root of that is all Jewish. The the apostles were the remnant of the Jews. Our lady was part of the remnant of the Jews. Just like in the Old Testament, there's a faithful remnant, even when you know most of Israel is falling to Baal worship or Moloch worship or Asherah, uh Ashereim worship or whatever it is. There's this faithful remnant, like when Elijah was fasting and he thinks he's all alone, and God says, I think, I think he says 4,000 or 5,000, something like that. I have 4,000 left in Israel. So there's always this faithful remnant. Well, that was the apostles. That was our lady. Um, that was the uh Stephen the first deacon uh and the first martyr. Um, and so that became, you know, uh the the portion of the Jewish people who inherited the promises. Oh, I've got to turn off a notification here. I thought it was off. Um, but then the Gentiles are joined to that, right? The then the Gentiles are joined to that. So we know that that was one of the first things that happened when Satan was bound and the new covenant was initiated was the Jews were expelled from the Holy Land. Um a lot, literally a lot in 8070.

SPEAKER_19 20:58

Sorry. In Luke 21, uh Jesus says, and Jerusalem will be down uh trodden underfoot by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. So you know when they get expelled, Jerusalem then basically just becomes taken over by Gentiles, which it's run by it's taken over by Christians and Muslims for different periods of time. Yeah. Until until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, then they'll be allowed to return. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 21:26

Well, whole lot to get into on that, but but um I want to make a few more connections here. We also know, and this is where you'll find ubiquitous language in the church fathers about Satan being bound, demons being bound. We just did an episode on this maybe a month or so ago, maybe a little bit more. Um, no, no, no, it was a little more. It was like almost two months ago. I can't believe we're already in March of AD 2026. It's crazy. Um, but on on Saint Athanasius, we covered the incarnation of the word, which is one of his most famous works. Well, that work, it's at a very high level, and you can find many, you know, individual stories among throughout. The writings of the fathers, but at a very high level, he talks about how paganism was being destroyed, how the power, literal power of demons was being disarmed, defanged, because they were bound by Christ. He talks about magic no longer working, incantations no longer working. He talks about the oracles going silent. Um, one pretty amazing story with this John Chrysus, uh Saint John Chrysosom talks about it in a um, he gives a homily on Blessed Babylus. I'll give the very, very quick story. So, and this also is related to Julian the apostate, who was the last pagan emperor. He was Catholic, maybe Aryan. It's not, it's a little unclear, but he apostatized completely, you know, became pagan, tried to revive paganism. He literally, in some of the histories, it literally describes Julian, you know, bringing back pagan priests who had become dishelved and impoverished because paganism was done. But it was like one last call is try to get paganism uh back up and running.

SPEAKER_19 22:54

He also told those priests that they should start feeding the poor because that was such an attractive thing the Christians were doing. So he was telling these pagan priests to take care of the poor and like be like almost like uh a twisting of Christianity a little bit, but under the the the false pagan gods. And because it was such an attractive thing that drew people to Christianity was our love for the poor and the downtrodden.

SPEAKER_08 23:21

Yeah, yeah. I think that I don't remember exactly where that was said, but yeah, that sounds that sounds right. So, in this homily on Blessed Babylus, who is Babylus? Babylus was a bishop in the late 200s who was martyred in the Diocletian persecution, I believe. So um his relics were buried at a place called Daphne, D-A-P-H-N-E. I think it's like in northern Syria, southern Turkey. So it's it's I forget which country it would exactly be in today, but very right around that border. And so there was an oracle there. Now, the oracle most people know about is Delphi or Delphi in Greece. And so what would happen? You'd have an uh uh, I'm forgetting the oracle's name. Uh there was a term for it. I'm totally blanking on it. But there was a female oracle, and leaders would go to the oracle to hear from Apollo. They would ask her questions and ask of Apollo, inquire of Apollo. It was kind of a pagan version of the Urim and Thumim that God established for the Israelites, um, where the high priest would literally go into the Holy of Holies, ask a question, and you know, the the stones on his ephod, I think is how you pronounce it, would light up in a particular way. Um, this is this is all part of the Bible. So, so when some Protestants try to argue that there was no um like proto-infallible magisterium uh in the old covenant, they are simply incorrect.

SPEAKER_19 24:40

You know what you know what else the the high priest had to do? He had to wear bells and there was a rope tied to him because if the high priest died while in the sanctuary, they uh the and the bell stopped ringing, they would have to pull him out by the rope because only the high priest could go in there, which is interesting because at a mass, that's why we ring the bells at mass when the consecration occurs.

SPEAKER_08 25:01

Yeah. Oh, that's a great connection point. Yeah. So anyway, um St. John Christmas is talking about his martyrdom and um and describes the story of Julian the apostate going to this oracle in Daphne, assuming I'm pronouncing correct. I I'm not particularly good at these things. Um, and wants to inquire of the demon. Well, the demon tells him Um, you have to remove these dead bodies that are near me. And he doesn't say that the relics of Babylus are there, but essentially what John Chrysostom says is the reason why the demon needed those relics moved is because it couldn't do anything, it couldn't speak, it it could not answer Julian the Apostate's request so long as the relics of a martyr were there, sort of like guarding the site and interceding.

SPEAKER_19 25:50

This is where we get the and speaking to you about this on our show is what made me understand um uh patron saints, because what happens is the the relics of the saint are brought in, and the and the the spirit of that saint then governs the area, right? So like the principalities that govern these areas are are taken out by the relics of the saint. So now you have a patron saint whose spirit, which when you're when you're when you have a patron saint, what you're seeing is an element of Christ in that patron saint. It was through conversations with you that that actually finally clicked in my head, and I started to understand what like I never understood why the church stopped teaching us this though, but that's where the idea of patron saints come from.

SPEAKER_08 26:33

Well, and who does Saint John give pride of place to in Apocalypse 20, verses four through six? It's those who are martyrs. And notice that during the not to get too into the weeds, but notice in those thousand years, it says that they are those who resist the beast. So the beast is not just this one guy, the Antichrist at the end. The beast, where John's getting this, is from Daniel, where various pagan polities and kingdoms are described as beasts. And then an apocalypse, we see a beast that partakes of all the characteristics of the four beasts described in Daniel. So it's somehow this this fifth beast. So anyway, the point is that Satan is limited during those thousand years. Obviously, there have still been exorcisms and whatnot during those thousand years, but I don't think we understand, other than the Jews, other than the Israelites, and they themselves were frequently falling into idolatry and and and paganism, um, other than them, the world was completely dominated by the worship of demons. And 2,000 years post Christ, we don't really have a framework for fully understanding that. But the change inaugurated by the incarnation of the Logos was profound. And this was the whole point of um St. Athanasius's uh on the incarnation of the word. He's giving one of the things he would say to Jews and to pagans, he'd say to the pagans, you know, if your gods are all that, why is why is this guy who you claim is dead, why is he defeating them everywhere? Why is he being worshipped everywhere and your gods are are falling along the wayside? And he would say to the Jews, well, if this wasn't the messiah, then why are all these pagan nations worshiping the God of Israel? Would God would the God of Israel allow himself to be worshipped through the machinations of a total liar and fraud? No, he wouldn't. And then of course he would point to other things as well. I forget.

SPEAKER_19 28:26

I say that to Protestants a lot. I like when Protestants try to say, I'm like, Do you understand how how absurd your position is? You're right, your your position is that Catholicism is a pagan cult. And it's like you're you're what you're saying is that God allowed a pagan cult to like Christ promised the kingdom, and instead the devil put his religion in instead. So you're saying Christ's mission failed, and and it took 1500 years before Martin Luther freed the real gospel. Like it's such an absurd, ridiculous proposition.

Thrones, First Resurrection, And The Church Age

SPEAKER_08 28:56

And it's it's one of the reasons I became Catholic. Of course, we're we're a bit oversimplifying. There are some Protestants who have a slightly more nuanced perspective. So just just so that in case they're listening, we know that there are those there. But yeah, functionally, if you look at the vast majority of Protestants and their errors today, errors meaning H-E-I-R-S, so they're the those who have proceeded from them, um, they believe things that are just completely absent from the ancient church. And this was a huge reason of why I became Catholic. Um, yeah, no, Martin of Tours is great. Um, this is a huge reason I became Catholic, though. Relics and veneration of the saints was huge. I mean, you find you find the Christians gathering the bones of St. Polycarp in the earliest stories um of St. Ignatius of Antioch, my patron saint. Um and and you find, as incidentally, that those who hated this the most were pagans. Julian the Apostate wrote, I think it was called Against the Galileans, and I haven't read the whole thing yet, but he has all he has a section in there where he calls out Christians for have for having basically you know monuments to dead bones everywhere. He hates it. He hates it because in the pagan world, the realm of the dead and the realm of the living were completely separated. So most people don't know this. The the term cemetery actually is a Christian word, it's a Catholic word. It means a place of sleep, right? From Paul's description of those who are dead.

SPEAKER_19 30:18

Did pagans bury their dead or they burn their dead?

SPEAKER_08 30:21

Uh, I think it was probably both. I'm not an expert on that, but let so but but the pagans didn't call it cemeteries, they called it necropolises or necropoli, a city of the dead. And so they would keep it totally separate. You can actually see this. I visited the scavi in Rome twice, actually. It's it's very rare to get to visit it once. We were it was just luck. It wasn't like connections or anything. It was just luck that we got to visit it twice on two different trips. But the scavi is beneath uh the Vatican, and it's this ancient burial ground, and this is where Peter's bones were initially put after he was murdered in Nero Stadium above, where he saw that that that uh obelisk that is that is in St. Peter's Square to this day. Of course, didn't have a cross on top of it at the time. Now it does. And and so um, but they found the memorial that the ancient Christians built to him that I I had seen countless descriptions of it by various church fathers. And if you took a laser from the from the high altar in the in St. Peter's Basilica and put it straight down, you would have been within inches of where this memorial to St. Peter was, where his bones very likely, we can't be absolutely certain, but very, very likely are the bones of Saint Peter, and it's within inches of you know, beneath the very center of the high altar to this day, 2,000 years later.

SPEAKER_18 31:35

So I will build my except for the except for some of the bones that we gave to the Orthodox.

SPEAKER_08 31:40

Oh, yeah, sure, sure, sure. Yeah, well, fair enough. But so anyway, so so let's ponder this um restrain. So this relates to the Catacon, which I've talked about a lot. Um, this is from Second Thessalonians 2. Too big of a topic to dive into at length without you know obstructing the uh the question period. But um St. Paul refers to this this mysterious restrainer. Um and this mistra this restrainer is what holds back the coming of Antichrist. But when this restrainer gives way, antichrist appears. And interestingly enough, and I'm still studying this, I'm I'm I'm working, I I wrote it like a I'll get back to COVID here in a bit, um, because I think it's very much related to a lot of contemporary events, unfortunately. But um uh it says that when Antichrist comes, this restrainer will have been removed, and that antichrist will come by all the power of Satan with lying signs and wonders. So as in Apocalypse 20, we see the demonic is restrained and the setting up of the apostolic thrones, and then this restraint gives way in verse seven, and Satan, this the something demonic, Satan the dragon, comes back. Likewise, St. Paul is showing, yeah.

SPEAKER_19 32:56

Do do you link that to Apocalypse 8, where it talks about the star falling from heaven and opening the key to the abyss?

SPEAKER_08 33:04

So this is all very interesting. I'm still pondering it, but yes, so so let me let me get to that in a second. So I have proposed a hermeneutic. I proposed this several years ago, I think two years ago, maybe three years ago, called Restrain, Release, Return. Restrain, obviously referring to the restraining of the dragon, release, the release of the dragon, um, and then return being the return of our Lord. Um, and I think when you analyze various parts of scripture in light of this hermeneutic, a lot of things open up. So one of the things I'm still not done analyzing this, so I don't want to be too definitive right now. But one of the ways I think, and I think it's probably the best way to read the apocalypse, is reading the different judgments as the same thing, but in a different light. So the seal judgments, the bold judgments, the trumpet judgments, et cetera. So what I do is I actually line up the first in each series. Well, line up the first in each series, the second in each series, the third in each series, the fourth in each series, et cetera. And there are, in in if I'm recalling correctly, it's been a while since I've done this deep dive on these parts of the apocalypse. I'm still studying a few other things. But from when I did it, I recall that there were there seem to be very clear parts of each of these series where some sort of restraint is moved out of the way. And yes, the falling of the star uh Apocalypse 9, I think it is, where the the abyss is opened up.

SPEAKER_19 34:29

I could I it's been a while since I've Yeah, it's it's either eight or nine, but uh Cor uh Cornelius Alapidae said that a star falling from heaven is representative of a bishop. And he says that in in Christ's first coming, that was Caiaphas, essentially, who opened the key to the bottomless pit when all the demons come out, and then that goes to your restrain and release, too. So then so then there's a restraining period, but then it in the in the end, there's gonna be a bishop from a very high place who opens the key to the bottomless pit, which I think matches maps up with the catacomb. If you I mean if you see the because I can't, I mean, I don't want to make you go with this theory, but I see like Paul the Sixth laying down the papal tiara as like I don't see the catacomb as one significant event, I see it as kind of like a series of events, yeah, through the chair of Peter.

Binding And Release: Scripture Cross-References

SPEAKER_08 35:18

Yeah, and this is where I think there's a lot of flexibility. What's so beautiful about the Catholic approach to scripture is it's not an either or. You know, I I wrote an article recently where Saint Jerome interpreted John 6, you know, the bread of life, as both divine doctrine and the Eucharist. Yeah. You know, to the point where he's saying the faithful are horrified if even a small crumb falls to the ground. Clearly, he's affirming Catholic belief about the Eucharist if you're believing that Christ is present in every crumb. Um, Origen says something very similar, although he's not a church father, um, although an authoritative witness on various things. Um, and so when it comes to the apocalypse, I I fundamentally I think the Cathicon is Christendom, and it's uh which is what is Christendom? The traditional, I guess, definition of it would be Christendom is you know, like kingdom. Kingdom is a is a polity over which a king reigns. So Christendom is a polity over which Christ reigns. Now, so people understand, again, not to get too many of the weed, I just find all this stuff interesting. So if I'm getting too far afield, you let me know. There is a polity even in Eden. So there being a there's a polity in heaven, right? Meaning there's a hierarchy by which the realm is governed, right? Yeah. Um, so there's always going to be a polity. Even when after the day of judgment, everybody's in heaven and hell, even in the state of perfection, there's going to be a polity. There's going to be a hierarchy by which government is still exercised. So polity is not simply a this worldly thing, dirty, whatever, although we certainly have to be very careful of the dangers and the temptations involved with it, you know, pre-eternity.

SPEAKER_19 37:10

Let me just say, let me just answer this just so because every there is no locals tonight. We're going to do two to two and a half hours on YouTube. There's going to be a call-in section. I we wanted to kind of just cover some stuff. Thing is, I could do a four-hour show with Josh because I I would love to get into like um uh the church and the anti-church kind of in the same body. That conversation. There's just so much I could cover with Josh. Maybe we'll do this in multiple parts, but we're going to do a call-in segment. But let's get through some of this stuff. It's I think it's super interesting.

SPEAKER_08 37:41

So um, so I think Christendom is the is the polity where Christ reigns in both spiritual and temporal aspects. So the spiritual traditionally referring to the hierarchy of the priesthood, the temporal referring to temporal rulers, kings, emperors, presidents, etc. And so Christendom is simply what results. So imagine if you got Saint Peter, he's baptizing a bunch of laymen who don't hold political power, they don't hold imperium in the ancient Roman world. But then let's say Peter, I'm not saying this happened, but just you know, as an analogy, he baptizes Caesar. Caesar doesn't cease to be Peter's spiritual subject, his spiritual son, simply because he is a temporal ruler. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_19 38:30

Yeah, yeah. Well, the older Christian is supposed to serve Christ the king, right? All the teachers should serve Christ the king.

SPEAKER_08 38:35

Yeah, so so the logic of Christendom works out from that basic reality, that when you are baptized, you become a a subject of the apostolic hierarchy, period. And that is Chris whether you're whether you're Caesar or not. Now, that doesn't mean that Caesar has thereby given up his right to temporal issues to the to the priesthood. No. Um the priesthood is there to teach infallibly bind and loose on faith and morals to guide Caesar. So we don't need to get into all that. But I do think that was a key element of the Catacon, what holds back the coming of Antichrist. And indeed, many fathers did believe that the Catechon, there's not a there's not a um unanimous opinion on this, um, but there is a strong majority opinion that the Catacon was the Roman Empire in some sense. Yeah. Um, and so so again, in in 2 Thessalonians 2, we see this restraint is imposed. But then Paul says that the final day won't come until the rebellion comes first. This is often known as the great apostasy. Um, and then and then the restrainer, he refers to the restrainer as a neuter it and as an individual he. So I think that has implications for the papacy. I think the power of the sacraments are involved in this. I think there's potentially Eucharistic consequen, you know, uh uh uh, you know, interpretations to this. So, like I said, Catholic interpretation is polyvalent. Um, but what happens when this restraint is imposed? The conversion of the empire, paganism. Now, there were periods of martyrdom. There were periods of martyrdom that eventually led to the conversion, but eventually that did happen. And so, in the same way that when this restraint is imposed, it took a few centuries for it to kind of build up. And Christendom itself was not some utopia, right? It never was meant to be. Now, why why is this restraint there? Well, the short version is it's because God has to gather in all the elect from the four corners of the world, which is a fascinating subject on its own. Now, this goes back to the gospel, and I mentioned this earlier. Many fathers use this language of the demons being bound. I mean, they even describe if you do a sign of the cross, the demons like freak out, they can't talk, they can't. I mean, this was really happening. And we still see it happening in in in, I'm sure mostly ex exorcists see it. Um, I personally think we're in, we're probably past verse seven or we're in verse seven right now. But my point is that when Satan was bound, it took a few centuries for the age of martyrdom to sort of progress to the age of Christendom. So, likewise, I think it's reasonable to think that the unbinding of Satan could likewise potentially take a few centuries to work out. I'm not positive about that. But here's where it's interesting. Not to get, man, we really could go four or five hours, especially. But but but but what I'm trying to get people to think about is a do a reverse image of history. So if if the grand outline of history does involve this binding of Satan, this thousand years, and then this loosen of Satan for a brief time, just consider what happened when he was bound. And then when we want to ponder, well, what would it look well what will it look like when he's unbound, do a reverse image of it. So what what happened when he was bound? Magic was see got very weak and ceased. The oracles went silent. St. Athanasius even has, I forget which chapter, people can look at the podcast. Um, St. Athanasius even has a fascinating part where he says that Christ, by ascending into heaven, cleared the atmosphere of demonic entities.

SPEAKER_19 42:11

Yeah, isn't that interesting? I I I I I I always described it as like a typological inversion. So, like the way you saw Christendom spread, you'll see a typological inversion where we're seeing our churches are closing now, right? And you're seeing we're selling off our buildings and our altars are starting to disappear as you're starting to see these pagan gods reappear, and you do see these pagan gods reappear in their worship, especially like this whole idea of like deify, like it's trans is sacred, like you're seeing the the priests of Artemis Ephesia coming back and things like that. You're actually seeing that, and and the the idea of the catacomb, it's like it's not the single event, it's I mean, I it probably could have you could even trigger the the starting point to the reformation. So if you're saying it's gonna take a couple hundred years, like you could put the starting point at the reformation, but I think it really picks up at the council where you see even the church's language about like the spreading of the gospel is is different now. And uh when you're when you're talking about um religious freedom now, like the church is no longer trying to lock in Christendom, right? So it's it's where we had this unified Christendom before, and even though they are still these these kings of the earth or presidents or whoever they are are baptized, are still subject to the Pope. The Pope is almost giving leeway because it seems like the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled. And it's almost like the church is kind of speaking to us subtly, even if they don't know that that's what they're doing. It's just kind of how the Holy Spirit moves.

Paganism Falls, Oracles Go Silent, Saints Reign

SPEAKER_08 43:46

Well, and that and so let's let me mention the thing in the Gospels first where this whole binding language from most of the fathers comes from. Because, like I said, uh the apocalypse isn't touched very often by the fathers. In fact, I mean you have it with St. Bede, he's probably the most Prominent father who does a complete commentary in the apocalypse. Another one is written by a guy who is probably a Donatist named Ticonius, who I remember you and I talked about. This is what I wanted to get into when you watched it. I discovered, I discovered this guy. I and it's been a while since I've reviewed Ticonius.

SPEAKER_19 44:13

Benedict Benedict loved Ticonius.

SPEAKER_08 44:16

Well, and I I actually found uh uh an essay Benedict had written as Father Rotzinger on before I think it was before Vatican II, it was in the 50s, that had not been translated. And I hired a Benedict and oblate to translate it uh right before the lockdown. So Ticonius is interesting because he really gets into this church anti-church thing. That's probably too much to get into right now. But but the reason I mention him is because Ticonius is mentioned very favorably by Bede, by Saint Bede, the Venerable, who's arguably one of the greatest um scripture scholars post-Derome, um, Saint Augustine, and even St. Thomas Aquinas makes a good mention of him. So, because Saint uh Saint, he was not a saint. Well, maybe he was. I hope he was, but as far as we know, he's not canonized. But Ticonius proposed seven rules for interpreting scripture, and particularly for interpreting prophetic apocalyptic scripture. And so Saint Augustine, Saint Bede seem to be seem to embrace these rules. And so his commentary in the apocalypse is simply applying these rules uh one through seven to interpreting the apocalypse. Very, very, very interesting stuff. The the extremely short version is that Ticonius kind of introduced me to this idea that the mystery of iniquity that Paul talks about says this mystery of iniquity is being restrained. Um and we know from the church, paragraph 675 to 77, that the that that the church herself, Christ's mystical body, will endure a passion just like his individual body did. So this mystery of iniquity, Ticonius says, is um he doesn't use the term anti-church, but that's essentially what he's describing. He says that there is this anti-church that grows alongside the church. Now, what would be the anti-church? It'd be those who are within the Catholic Church, um, but who are terrors, you know, wheat and terrors, goat and sheep.

SPEAKER_19 46:02

And of course, we can paint the church. Yes, to pull them out, right?

SPEAKER_08 46:09

Yes, and they grow up together. The apostle said, Well, should we take the take the tares out? It says, No, wait till the end. Otherwise, you'll uproot the the wheat as well. Um, so Ticonius really goes into this very, very interesting. I need to review. It's been a while since I've cracked open Ticonius, but it it had a powerful impact on my thinking in light of St. Augustine and St. Bede's endorsement, and like, okay, these are these are these are good scriptural rules.

SPEAKER_19 46:32

Mine too, at the time when you were, because I remember you giving me stuff to read, and it was like, I had I just had like synopsis firing in my house. I was like, holy cow, man, this is so interesting. So I'll tell the story Biden as the president at the time, and I'm like, this is exactly what he's talking about, right? You have Joe Biden claiming to be Catholic, and he's like this wicked man supporting abortion, but he's like, and you're seeing the church and anti-church growing inside the same body.

SPEAKER_08 46:58

Yeah, and so basically Ticonius would argue that once the Catholicon is is is no longer restraining, that the anti-church bursts forth. And the anti-church is basically the body of the devil within the visible church. Now, to be clear, any of us could belong to that that body. If you and I go out and fall into mortal sin. Yeah. Yeah. We have we have given ourselves back over to Satan. Uh, we have gone against our baptismal vows, um, which were either uttered by us in in uh in well, actually, you know, yeah, I guess my case technically, uh, or by our parents, you know, the the the I renowned Satan and all of his works and all his pomps and all that. And so so any of us, so our status can shift, obviously, based on what we choose to do or not. But providentially, that this anti-church grows within the visible bosom of the church, and then when the catacomb is no longer a straining, it bursts onto history. And since it's the body of the devil within the visible church, the anti-church teams up with the body of the devil that's outside the church. Outside the church, which is precisely what we see in the Passion of Our Lord, where you have Judas and the Jewish high priesthood at the time teaming up with the Romans. I also think there's a connection there with the the beast and the whore in Apocalypse 18, um, where potentially there there are um there could be a Jewish uh understanding of that. Let me get to that in a second. I I do want to mention that though, because I know you and I have talked about it, and I I know some serious scriptural scholars whose names I've I've been requested to keep private, but they agree with this interpretation. So when Jesus just sorry, I keep mentioning this, but just to close out this point, this point, the the language of binding of demons and Satan from so many of the fathers isn't coming explicitly necessarily from Apocalypse 20, though some quote it to refer to it. It comes from the Gospels, where Jesus talks about the strong man being bound so that his goods can be plundered. But then he says, seven more demons come and it's worse than before. So this is why when you're comparing a pagan civilization and an apostate civilization, an apostate civilization is far, far, far worse. Okay, because it's not that it's never known Christ, it's that it has known him and said no. And abandoned him, and abandoned him. And and and the book of Hebrews describes apostasy in a similar way. That you know, it'd be better if you hadn't heard the faith and become Catholic if you go back, Judas, right?

SPEAKER_19 49:27

It'd be better if you had never been born than to apostatize.

SPEAKER_08 49:31

Well, and Judas, Judas, this is where I think there's a Eucharistic element to all this as well. Judas is not possessed the whole time of the Gospels, he's possessed at a very specific point. At the at John 6. No, no, he doesn't believe, but he's not in John 6 is where it first points out in John. Oh, is it at the Last Supper? It doesn't believe. He is possessed when he receives the Eucharist, yeah, whose body, blood, soul, and divinity he does is not believe is Christ.

SPEAKER_19 50:02

So he's he's receiving in a state of mortal sin, and St. Paul says, You you eat and drink damnation upon yourself.

SPEAKER_08 50:08

Well, but even John's gospel says that after he received the morsel, which all the fathers I've seen interpret this part of John's gospel as the Eucharist, I mean, Jesus says, He who I give this morsel to, he gives it to Judas, and then Satan possesses him, and then he goes off. So he wasn't possessed simply in not believing, he was possessed when he received the Eucharist, which he didn't believe to be the body and blood of our Lord, unworthily. And then he went off and did his thing, and um obviously that didn't go well for him. And um, so anyway, this is where this language comes from. And you actually find the Roman Catechism that was issued by the Council of Trent, it actually does talk about three principal signs that will precede the Lord's return. One of them is, and I I think the first one has happened, the third one has not happened. I think the second one we're arguably in the midst of or potentially nearing the completion of. The first one was the going of the gospel to all nations, because Jesus says this gospel will go to throughout the world as a testimony, and then the end shall come. Okay. And this is part of the plundering of the goods. So when Satan is bound, Apocalypse 20, let's put it together. When there's some sort of restraint put in, 2 Thessalonians 2, when the strong man is bound, so his goods can be plundered, gospels. This is all to allow the spread of the kingdom of God on earth. This thing that in Daniel 2 is described as a rock or a little stone that becomes a mountain that fills the whole earth. Similar description in Isaiah 2 of the mountain of the Lord, because it's the smallest and it comes the biggest and fills the whole earth. Um, other prophets describe it the exact same way. I think it's is it Hosea? One of the prophets, like he basically quotes Isaiah 2 word for word, almost on the same description. Um, so this is the plundering of the goods of the strongman who has been bound. Who are the goods? Human souls that have been enslaved to Satan. Okay. Um, so that has to happen. I think that has happened. I I think it'd be very, very hard at this point to argue that every nation has not received the gospel in some form or another. Doesn't say they'll all convert, doesn't say they'll all believe, it just says it will have gone to every nation. Um so I do think that that's happened. The second sign is a great apostasy, and the third sign is the advent of Antichrist. I don't think the third one has happened. He may he may he may very well be here, um, but he is not fully you know unveiled.

SPEAKER_18 52:27

Yeah, he's not revealed yet.

The Restrainer, Christendom, And The Cathechon

SPEAKER_08 52:28

So so the second one is the great apostasy of the Gentiles. So this gets back to uh uh Luke 21, which various fathers, I believe Bede included, Saint Bede the Venerable, do in fact interpret it in the way uh I'm mentioning here, and that we you referred to earlier. Uh our Lord says, uh, and Jerusalem, this is um 21 verse uh nine uh twenty four. Um and Jerusalem, it talks about the destruction of the temple and says, and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. So throughout the fathers, throughout the whole tradition, you see that I mean Jesus' parables, uh just so so many places that the the Jewish people were prepared to receive their Messiah, but their fall was also prophesied. We have this, you know, the the the cornerst the the stone that was rejected by the builders has become the chief cornerstone. Our Lord applies this directly to the to the Pharisees and the Jewish leadership. So there's this switching. It's not saying that all Jews are are rejected now, of course not, because then we wouldn't have the apostles and our lady. That's absurd. But but but it is a it is a going to the Gentiles. We see this when our Lord talks about the sign of Jonah. What did Jonah do? Jonah was told to go to the Gentiles, Assyria in this case, and and preach repentance. He doesn't want to, he doesn't want to. So he goes off, he gets eaten by the whale, whatever. It's very clear he dies because he gives a prayer from Sheol, which is the realm of the dead. So he dies, we've died. He rises again on a third day, and then he goes and preaches repentance to Assyria, to Nineveh, and they repent. So when Jesus says that you will not receive a sign but the sign of Jonah, that's part of what he's talking about, that the Messiah will die, he'll rise again on the third day, he'll preach repentance to the Gentiles, and they will repent. And so that's the going of the gospels of the Gentiles. So when he speaks about the times of the Gentiles, I think it is that time period in which, as Paul says, there's a partial hardening that comes over Israel. And he says that by their stumbling we are saved, right? So this is that time of the Gentiles. So yeah, go ahead. No, no, no, it's copy. Oh, I think it I think this is part of when the catacomb is restraining. Um, I think it's part of when Satan is bound. And so um, so uh it's all incredibly interesting, but uh suffice to say I've I've posted this on X before, but I think um it's not a coincidence that the following things, I can't string all this together, it would take too long. I'm just gonna put a few things out there in case it's thought provoking for people. And if you've seen it on X already, I apologize. But um, I don't think the following things are coincidence that they've occurred roughly within a 20-year period or so. Um, the invention of nukes, the use of nukes, the virtual disappearance of Christendom, the appearance of the UAP phenomena. That's why I found uh St. Athanasius's my godson is in there, uh Jared uh Selim. Great, great, great young man. He's very uh very intelligent, very uh very good man. Um former Mormon, former LDS. So he's a very smart kid. So people check out Jared. Um and so um uh when St. Athanasius says that our Lord ascending um our oh okay. Uh that that when I when he says our Lord um ascending into the into heaven cleared the atmosphere of of demonic entities, we won't go into this too much right now, but I think it's very there are other fathers who make and other ecclesiastical writers like Eusebius who make very, very similar comments.

SPEAKER_19 56:01

And so if that's part of the binding of Satan, I personally wouldn't be surprised if the loosing of Satan uh would would bring these demonic entities back into the atmosphere that people are calling them aerial phenomena, unidentified aerial phenomena. Yeah, it's a very good point.

SPEAKER_08 56:17

Correct. I don't think these are are crazy suppositions on my side. I don't think so. Um, and so uh where was I going with that? Um uh oh yeah, so the UAP phenomenon, aliens, whatever, nukes, Christum has disappeared. There are basically no more temporal powers that acknowledge the authority of the priesthood. Um, you know what? Liechtenstein. I think the the prince of Liechtenstein. Um argue with his okay, good. Oh boy, now he's before before you he and I, Jared and I haven't talked in a bit, and now he's using terms like MOG. So man, he's been he's being corrupted by Gen Z. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I love Gen Z. I I wear my proud. You know what I should do for our next show? I should get a badge, like one of those reward badges that says unk on it, because I know some of our mutual friends uh somebody pointed out they said, uh, they said, I love that Anthony and Josh can sit and have this conversation.

SPEAKER_19 57:10

They come from such drastic, differ drastically different backgrounds. And I think it's actually a testament to that like God makes his mysteries accessible to anybody, you know, and it's not like it does he didn't just reserve them for the for the um for for the the whys of this world, you know. It's like, yeah, all right, I'm a construction worker, but uh these are topics that any one of us can access, and I think it's actually important that people see that.

SPEAKER_08 57:34

Yeah, and then I do think I uh when it comes to Christendom, you know, um, I do think Paul the Six laying his tiara on the altar. The tiara was a traditional representation that popes had um worn for a thousand years, roughly, representing Christendom. And the traditional doctrine that the Pope held supreme spiritual authority, and there was a sense in which he held supreme temporal authority. He wasn't supposed to, he was supposed to basically delegate the temporal sword to a Christian prince, right? So he was not supposed to possess and use it himself, except in the most extreme situations, where, for example, so imagine if you're the you're you're let's imagine, let's just go back to Saint Peter and Caesar. Now, Saint Peter did not baptize Caesar, don't get me wrong, but let's say it was Saint Peter and Caesar. Saint Peter, you know, baptizes Caesar, Caesar becomes one of his spiritual sons, and let's say the rest of the Roman Empire becomes Catholic as well. And then Caesar, being a Catholic, under the spiritual jurisdiction of Peter, starts abusing some of the other Catholics. So what is Peter supposed to do? Well, Peter does have authority to reign in his spiritual son. So that's so it's he's it's not meant to take over the temporal power in that sense, but it is meant to restrain and if necessary, take it away, not to hold it permanently, but then to immediately delegate it to somebody else. So that was part of it.

SPEAKER_19 58:53

It's almost as if in the laying down of that papal tiara, he he gave away any any it's like he gave away that that that he would reign those authorities in, you know. It's like not that not that he still doesn't have the authority, he does still have the authority, but it's all it was almost like this symbolic thing where he was like, I'm just not going to intervene in in these kingly affairs anymore.

SPEAKER_08 59:17

I think a possible way to interpret it is I am no longer going to restrain in these matters.

SPEAKER_19 59:24

Yeah, and that goes and that goes to if we are in the passion, that goes to Peter's denial, right? Like he doesn't he doesn't outright, he doesn't outright like say Christ isn't Jesus isn't the Christ or anything, he just denies knowing him. And I've I've got I've caught in flack from people from for saying that it seems like all the post-consiliary popes are almost like that. It's not it's not that they deny Christ, it's more like that there's like this hesitancy to proclaim the truth of Christ with fervor, especially the most difficult doctrines. You know, it's almost like they're hesitant and and they they want to put it as gently as possible. They don't you they don't they don't speak like the popes before this period.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:00

I think it's actually a bit more specific than I I agree with you in some ways. I I would refine it a little bit more, and I could be wrong, this is very speculative. But if we do take our Lord's passion as a type of the passion of the church, don't expect Peter to be impressive. Yeah, you know, and uh and it's in Luke actually that our Lord says, you know, Satan wished to sift you, but I've prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And then when you convert, it's interesting that our Lord is saying, I've prayed for you that your faith will not fail, but then when you convert, so it's like does his faith fail or doesn't it? I think the more logical interpretation is that his faith does not fail, his courage does. And so I think what Peter, when as you said, Peter never says he's not the Messiah. Peter um says that I, Peter, do not know him. So I think, in a sense, and again, this is this is very speculative, so I I think we all need to hold these things somewhat loosely. But if we're just going with what the church says, paragraph 675 to 77 about the passion of the church, there it it seems like Peter is is um denying that there that he has a sort of exclusive relationship with Christ, and and I think that's kind of the spirit that's pervaded the Western Catholic Church.

SPEAKER_19 1:01:11

What do you what do you see happening with these ecumenical meetings? And you know, that's kind of he's he's almost denying his own special relationship. As I mean, we saw even Pope Francis took uh the like gave up the title vicar of Christ and things like that.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:29

I'd have to double check that. I heard I heard that there was some some confusion on that.

SPEAKER_19 1:01:34

I'm not positive, but but yeah, but in general, yes, this is the general bent of a lot of and look when when we're talking about this stuff, like the most speculative theology you can talk about is eschatology, right? Like these things aren't set in stone, and like ideas can be wrong, and we could be misreading things, but we're just kind of like bouncing ideas off and without getting too much into curiosity, we're just looking at the signs of the times and saying, Look, it's it's almost like this. Like, I see some people lose their faith and they go to Cedricantism, or I see some people lose their faith and they're going to Eastern Orthodoxy. I'm trying to give people like a theological framework to understand the crisis a bit. Because when you have a theological framework to understand this stuff, it kind of makes sense, especially if you do see the church as in her passion.

Time Of The Gentiles And The Reverse Image

SPEAKER_08 1:02:16

Yeah, and and these are like the small little speculations. The the big thing I want to communicate is the big picture idea of this restraining of the dragon, the period of the thrones, the dragon coming back, what happened when the dragon was restrained? What happened when the strongman was bound? What happened when the catacomb, the restrainer, was in place? The fathers tell us, Christian history tells us, we know it happened. Therefore, what happens when it is no longer present, when the when the dragon is no longer bound, when the strongman comes back with the seven more demons, uh, when the catacon no longer restrains. In each of these places in the gospel, we have the strongman coming back with more demons. It represents Satan and his demons. Um, in 2 Thessalonians, we have Antichrist coming by all the power of Satan. In Apocalypse 20, we have the brief release of Satan. So there is some sort of diabolical element that God, in his providence, permits. He permits it, which is a great mystery anyway. But one of the other things I was going to say that I wasn't surprised all happened within you know 20 or so year period, Vatican II ends. I believe uh Paul VI laid the papal TR on the altar in 64. I think it was 1964, and then Vatican II ends in 1965, and then Jewish sovereignty is regained over the city of Jerusalem, the old city of Jerusalem, two years later.

SPEAKER_18 1:03:37

No longer trodden by the Gentiles.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:40

Now, this is gets to another point. Um, I'll I I we're we're almost to an hour, so I mean, Utah as well.

SPEAKER_19 1:03:48

Well, I I I do want to make sure we give people time. I will we'll definitely give them time. Like we'll rule I'm staying a little late tonight. We'll give them time. So I'd like you to finish up your thoughts.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:56

Yeah. So the other L so I actually wanted to read, um, because this is very important. Um from the from this is from my oath and the into the church, and this is what it says I admit the sacred scriptures in the sense which has been held and is still held by Holy Mother Church, whose duty it is to judge the true sense and interpretation of sacred scripture, and I shall never accept or interpret them except according to the unanimous consensus of the fathers. What that means, and many Catholics are not aware of this, is that when the fathers are unanimous in interpreting scripture, that is considered an infallible indication that something is revealed, meaning without error. Um, you know, contrary to a lot of the um the misrepresentations of the Catholic faith, we do not believe that the paper, the papacy is the only source of infallibility. We believe the papal office can be infallible under certain conditions. Obviously, the papal office, along with all the other bishops, can be infallible. We believe that the universal and ordinary magisterium can be infallible. You know, has it ever been dogmatically declared that Christ is the Messiah? No. Uh, has it ever been dogmatically declared that Sunday is the day of Christian worship? No, it hasn't. So things like that are part of the what's called the universal and ordinary magisterium. It's just what basically literally every priest has ever said ever. And so that that's considered infallible. The census fidelium, the people as a whole, etc. So the unanimous consensus of the fathers is considered infallible. So I took this oath July 13th, Saturday, uh Fatima Day, 2019. We get into 2020. I had just consecrated my life to our lady January 1st, 2020, was in Italy. I was with a friend of mine, and both of us got a respiratory bug uh that was pretty bad for him. It was it was not pleasant for me, but I got over it a little quicker. And um, we think it was pretty certain it was COVID. Um, you know, I I came back, I had a bunch. Of uh, you know, um phlegm for months, just gray phlegm. I'd never experienced not to be gross or anything, but but I right when I came back, having gone to see the monks at Norcia, visited Rome again, um, I was immediately running into like Ticonius and some of these fathers on these sorts of questions. And it was so intense. I literally I was in a financial position to just say, I'm gonna stop all work and focus just on this for a bit. And so I concluded I need to write like a 30-page, 40-page, whatever it ends up being, reflection, just distilling all these. I'm like, this is all making a whole lot of sense. And then, days into starting this, the lockdown started. And I was just like, what is going on? You know, it was the most surreal series of uh coincidences, uh, quote unquote, that I've ever experienced in my life. So anyway, that later became like a 350, 375-page manuscript, thousand footnotes, something like that. So that is like my rough draft. I'm working on that still to refine it in light of all the reflection the last six years. But but but I went into COVID knowing that the unanimous consensus of the fathers is binding. What are the fathers unanimous on on the end times? Not everything, but they're they are unanimous on a few points. Uh let's start with this one. First, antichrist will make the public sacrifice of the mass illegal. So what happened in COVID, the lockdowns, the prohibition of public worship was the closest this planet has ever come factually to what antichrist will do. So that immediately cued me in. This isn't just dark, it's antichrist dark. Now, that doesn't mean he's necessarily right around the corner. I'm not making any claims about that. I have suspicions. I I personally think it's more likely than not. It's in my lifetime. If I live to a normal lifespan, I'm 37. Um, disturbingly close to 38. Um, but uh, but but but what happened in COVID was the closest we've ever gotten to what Antichrist will do. If you want verification for this and sources, you can go on Eternal Christian's website. St. Robert Bellerman talks about this. I believe it's in chapter seven of his treatise on Antichrist. You can get this from Mediatrix Press, our friend Ryan Grant, who's the translator there. Um he cites all the fathers, says, yep, they're unanimous on this point that this is something Antichrist will do. Um, now, another point is I think most people are familiar with understanding Antichrist as a false prophet for the whole world. So drawing basically all people into some form of false religion. The other element that the fathers are unanimous on, and we need to remember, is um that Antichrist will also be a false Messiah for the Jews. The fathers are unanimous that the Jews will initially receive Antichrist as their Messiah. And they base this on several texts, primarily our Lord saying, You don't accept me because I come in uh you know the name of another, but there will be one you accept who comes in his own name. And so the fathers are unanimous on this point. And so while there are divergences of opinion among the fathers, uh uh Father Rippiger, who I love, was incorrect in his recent uh I I agree. I'm I'm not I think Father Rippiger is a little off on his uh Yeah, no, we have the well to his credit, though, he did say according to the fathers, I've read. So he did limit it. So so technically he's not incorrect because it's I believe him when he says the fathers that he has read uh indicate that the temple will never be rebuilt. Um there are fathers who do believe that. There are fathers who do believe it's the church, but there are lots of fathers who also believe the temple will be rebuilt.

SPEAKER_16 1:09:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:42

And this makes sense if Antichrist is to be received by the Jews as a false messiah, and then they will convert, by the way. The fathers are also unanimous about that, so don't forget that.

SPEAKER_19 1:09:52

Yeah, there's also um the uh a lot of the fathers repeatedly say that the messiah will come from the tribe of Dan. And I've I've gone through it enough on this show to explain to people that like the Jews are the southern two tribes, the tribe of Dan is part of the 10 northern tribes that break away, and they get mixed in with the Gentiles so much that they're basically Gentiles. So, my theory is that the Antichrist could just be a Gentile that they will then claim, hey, we found out that he's actually from the tribe of Judah or Benjamin, and try to seat him, try to seat him as as a descendant of David, but when he really will be from the tribe of Dan, but he may not even know he's from the tribe of Dan. So it very could very well could just be a Gentile that they say, hey, he's our Messiah.

Anti-Church Within The Church: Ticonius

SPEAKER_08 1:10:38

Yeah, possibly. And so people know the basis for the Dan interpretation is from Jacob's prophecies over his sons in Genesis 49. Um and then the lack of Dan in the 144,000 uh listed from the 12 tribes in Apocalypse 14, I think it is. Um, so that's where that that whole idea comes from. So so yeah, the there is some supposition here. It's not explicitly laid out, but I mean, you can look in Jewish sources, and that many of them say, yeah, Messiah will rebuild the temple. I mean, why if if you're Jewish, why wouldn't he? Right? You you can't even fully live your your religion offering sacrifice according to the law of Moses. You can't even fully do it without the temple. In fact, that was the basis, you know. Obviously, Tucker Carlson just did this episode talking about the rebuilding of the temple, whatever. Man, this is a rich topic, too. But we did a whole topic, we did this whole podcast. It was like a little over an hour last summer, covering, you know, almost all the testimony, pagan and Christian, about Julian the apostate. We talked about him earlier, Julian the apostate's attempt to rebuild the temple. Um, now some fathers, it's very interesting. St. Cyril of Jerusalem seems to say in his writing that um that there may be a temple, but then there are other contemporaneous accounts that basically say um also cites uh I think that's about our our buddy Gideon, who I absolutely love. Yeah, what what did he say? What was that comment? Can you put it up?

SPEAKER_19 1:12:06

He said uh uh Saint Hippolytus. Um St. Hippolytus also cites prophecies about Dan in Deuteronomy and Jeremiah.

SPEAKER_08 1:12:12

Yeah, yeah. Gideon's a Jewish convert to the Catholic faith, brilliant guy. Um I've had some great conversations with Gideon. I hope this doesn't embarrass him. Gideon is genuinely one of the it's really the best word. He's really one of the sweetest people I know. He's very kind, he has a very sweet, he's a very intelligent, very big part for the Jewish people to convert.

SPEAKER_19 1:12:34

Like really big, it really weighs on him. He's like he really wants to see the Jewish uh people convert.

SPEAKER_08 1:12:41

And he gets a lot of of crap from LARPers on social media who are more psychopathic than converso and stuff.

SPEAKER_19 1:12:48

No, I know Gideon, definitely not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:12:50

So anyway, so anyway, we maybe but but but but uh you know, again, it if you if you view history as the binding of the dragon, the unbinding, and as reverse images, well, temple's destroyed, uh, and then they're expelled from the Holy Land. So I um I think this is fully compatible. I know many Catholics who who believe this, who are serious theologians, and as Gideon has pointed out, there are even some fathers who actually entertain the idea that the Jews could come back to the Holy Land. Now, what this doesn't mean, this is this needs to be done carefully. So there are different sources of rights, and what you get depends on the source. So, for example, um, you too, Gideon. Um so you know, you're you work for a company, you do construction stuff. I've been self-employed much of my life. Lots of contracts, right? There are contractual rights, right? I have a right to get paid X amount of money from that guy, right? In such a case, we can't go to a third party and say, I have a right that you pay me what he owes me, right? So because the right is from the contract. Okay. There are rights from nature, meaning our human nature, uh, natural law. So every person is has a right to be treated justly, which is to receive what they are due. Um, you know, parents have a right to be obeyed by children. I'm not super comfortable with the language of rights, but just it's what people are are familiar with. So that's that a right can come from nature. So every nation that begins to exist has a right to exist according to natural law, including the state of Israel. Then there is a divine right, which is that I have a right bestowed directly from God to do this, and that is where that is completely false when it comes to the Jewish people in the Holy Land. Um, when you look at scripture, their occupation of the Holy Land is always contingent upon some sort of covenantal faithfulness, although there are times when God says, I will bring you back despite your unworthiness, right? So essentially what I think is happening is I completely deny, as I think every Catholic has to, that the Jews are in the Holy Land by divine right, and that this is some sort of like God paying off his promise to Abraham. No, that's not what this is. But I do believe that God has permitted them to come back to the Holy Land as a preparation for that as a preparation for the coming of this false messiah and eventually their conversion. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_19 1:15:30

I mean it goes it goes to Luke 21 saying that the the that Jerusalem will be trodden by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. So I'm yeah, my whole thing is that I I mean, and look, this period, we don't know how long this is, like it's been going on since 1948, right? So this period since 1948. Now, what and even in my conversations with Gideon, he's told me that there's like messianic fervor in Jerusalem right now. There, and and I and I and I talked about it even when you hear Netanyahu speak, like Netanyahu's an atheist, right? And what is he doing? He's he's referencing uh Amalek and the Amalekites, and it's like he's building upon that messianic fervor because he wants to get the fanatics drummed up, and it's I mean, it's just a lot of a lot of things happening right now that are just like they're they're eyebrow raising. That's all I'll say, you know.

SPEAKER_08 1:16:19

But again, it really it really just goes to the reverse image. Um, the Jews were expelled, the temple was destroyed. What's the reverse image? They come back at least in a temp. Now, my personal opinion on the temple, I tend to think antichrist will put it out there as an offer, and he may even go on the temple mount and kind of say, like, this is my domain now, I am God, something like that. I tend to think this seemed to be St. Cyril of Jerusalem's opinion. And say, why do I cite him? He was the bishop of Jerusalem when Julian the Apostate tried to rebuild it. And it was it was noted by several Christian sources. This is all on a on a quote archive on EternalChristian.com on the podcast, that he said that this will never happen. He said it won't happen because based on our Lord's prophecy that not one stone will be left upon another. And his reading of Daniel 9, which seemed to speak about the desolation lasting to the end. I'm forgetting the exact language, but the desolation going to the end of the holy, of the holy place. So um I I I don't so I think Father Ripiger is probably right on that in terms of a factual description of what the end times could look like. I I think it's more likely than not it will not be built. Um, but I do think it'll be put out there because it the third temple is essential to a great deal of Jewish messianic expectation. And frankly, we can say that as Catholics, no problem. Why? Because Jesus is the third temple. Yeah, Jesus, the Catholic Church is the third temple. Yes, that's the issue. And and and why their conversion is so important after this. This really is, and this is something I'm I'm very happy you've emphasized often, is all throughout scripture there's this there is this um divergence of brothers and reunification of brothers. So there is a sense, you know, think if you were a pagan, if you are a pagan, but then you become Catholic, does your pagan family cease to be your family by blood, by by nature? No. And you desperately want them to become Catholic. So we're in a some a somewhat similar situation with the Jews. The Jews are our Lord's natural family. Yeah. And to speak analogically, of course, um, because God as God doesn't have desires in the same way that we humans do, like, you know, like if he doesn't get it fulfilled, he's like, you know, messed up or whatever. But but but Christ desperately wants, I mean, he wept over Jerusalem. He wept over Jerusalem. There's you know, there's the Jesus wept, uh, but then the the the one where he's the it's the most profuse is over seemingly is over Jerusalem. Uh, you know, forgive them for they do not know what to do. Yes, yeah, absolutely. And so, but then as you you've talked about frequently and whatnot, we see we see um these cases, these typologies throughout scripture of brothers reuniting, whether it's uh Jacob and Esau. Now it's interesting because Isaac is the one. I'm sorry. Um, yeah, no, was it uh yeah, no, I'm sorry, yeah. It was it, it was Jacob. No, no, one second, one second. It was Israel who stole the inheritance from Esau's house. Then I'm sorry. No, Jacob stole the inheritance. So then he's renamed to Israel, and Israel and Esau are reconciled.

SPEAKER_19 1:19:29

Yeah, that's actually interesting. Uh yeah, I it's not Jacob and Esau. Yeah, it's a change, his name changes. Yes, yeah, and Israel. Joseph then becomes the the seated at the right hand of the king and ruling over the gentiles, right? And then and then they and then he reunites with his brothers too. I I've pointed out that like even what the church is doing with with the Abrahamic faith house, it's like it's like the church is trying to fulfill the scriptures about the brothers reuniting in a carnal sense and not actually reuniting them through the covenant through Jesus Christ. It's like some really some really interesting things happening uh on a on a spiritual level going on there. There's also this factor is that no Israel, no Jewish kingdom has ever lasted more than 80 years. The Davidic kingdom was 80 years, and like so we're coming up on 80 years. That's another thing that kind of puts the sense of urgency on me, thinking that we're getting a little close to that to that time period, you know.

SPEAKER_08 1:20:29

But but the reason I think I the the the ex the conclusion I would encourage people to ponder prayerfully this Lent with respect to this brother dynamic. You know, I was part of a Christian fraternity, it was founded by Protestants, but really good group. And I founded a chapter at my all-mater, the University of Kansas. I was president, you know, we got pretty, you know, pretty good size. But our founding verse is Psalm 133, one, uh, how good and pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity. And we have to, as you know, Scott Hahn kind of caught some flack for saying this in his interview with Gavin Ashen, and both are on Eternal Christians Advisory Board, they're both friends, and so um, and I know you've had your scuffles with with one of them who may or may not have a favorite action.

SPEAKER_19 1:21:09

One of my favorite shows ever was Breaking Down That Interview.

Apostasy, Judas, And Eucharistic Warnings

SPEAKER_08 1:21:12

And I I love Gavin. I don't fully agree with him and everything, but I I love Gavin. I love Scott, obviously. But anyway, um Scott referred to, you know, if like if you're in the old covenant now, it's kind of you're like in a burning house and you need to get out. Now, I I think I don't want to speak for Scott, but I think the basis for that, you and I have talked about this. Moses, I think it's in Deuteronomy 18, I believe. Moses tells the people of Israel, when this other prophet comes, which I believe even Jews interpret messianically, you will listen to what he says. And then God says something very intense. I don't have it in front of me, but I'm paraphrasing. God says, if you don't, I myself will require it of him. It's there, black and white. I didn't say it, but God said it. And so if you misidentify the Messiah, that goes for everybody, by the way, um, God Himself will require it of you, but particularly those with whom he was already in a covenant. And so if you're in the old covenant by circumcision, despite the fact that you haven't been baptized, there is a sort of covenantal, no, not there's sort of, there is. There is a covenantal obligation, not stemming from baptism, but stemming itself from circumcision to accept the messiah, which is why Paul's invective against those who insisted so much on circumcision, you know, as opposed to baptism or that you somehow need this to do, it was so strong. It's like, no, this is what pointed you to that. Yeah, the circumcision of the flesh is now the circumcision of the heart. That the Holy Spirit of Jeremiah 31. This is I will write the law of God on my heart, on your heart. What? And Italian doesn't, yeah. Sorry. Yeah, they're getting mad. We have to do the colon. All right, all right, all right.

SPEAKER_19 1:22:54

All right, we're gonna go to the colon section segment. Before that, nicknacks.com. I'm gonna do two quick uh two two quick promos. Uh uh, what is it? Nicknack.com. Oh, he doesn't have the thing set up where it just pops up the promo code. Nicknacks is uh code AB25 for 25% off your first purchase. Nicknacks is uh product containing nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive substance, but nicotine is definitely not a smoking cessation device, even though I used it to quit smoking. Um, also, um, shoplobster.com. Uh, they are running a promo with us during Lent. Uh, go to shoplobster.com, use code AB10 for 10% off. Their lobster is phenomenal. I cannot recommend it high enough. There's it's so good. I took payment in lobster instead of payment. So go to shoplobster.com, they ship all over the country. Awesome outfit. Okay, so here's the deal with the call-ins. I'm going to I have very specific groups I have to send it to first before I open it up to everybody. So the first um, the first person that's going to get it is somebody who asked me to actually start the to actually do this show. He's been asking me for months when can you do a call-in show with Joshua Charles? So I'm going to send I'm going to send it to you.

SPEAKER_08 1:24:09

So we I'm going to put a little timer on my phone so that each new question I get, I'm going to hit the stopwatch just to try and limit it.

SPEAKER_19 1:24:16

Now, also the thing is, I'm going, I want everybody that does call in to keep it brief. Okay. Like it's you, I want to try and get a decent amount of people to come in. So get your question and keep it brief. I may even boot you off the screen for the answer.

SPEAKER_08 1:24:32

Well, and just to be clear, I'm here for at least another hour and possibly more if we want to. So while while we're these things are deep, I understand the frustration with getting I totally get it. Um, these are very deep things though. And and so um I will try to keep it to a reasonable length, but I'm also going to be generous with my own time in being around. So don't feel like it's too rushed on my end.

SPEAKER_19 1:24:52

All right. Well, I sent it to Patrick, and he's not in yet, so he better hurry up because I'm sending it to the first group chat that I have to send it to. So the group chat now has it. Then I have to send it to this group chat, which I'm about to do. All right, let's see. And then I don't have a 4 a.m.

SPEAKER_08 1:25:09

wake-up call like Anthony.

SPEAKER_19 1:25:12

And then I'm going to send it to locals. All right. Patrick doesn't want to show his face, but Patrick is a very good friend of mine. He is the one who has been begging me for months to do this. Patrick, can you can you hear us?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:24

Hey, can you guys hear me? Yeah, perfectly, buddy. Go ahead. All right. All right. So, Josh, uh, first of all, I want to thank you because you uh while ago on your show, you recommended The Moralia in Job. And this, I had a reversion, and like I was reading the Bible and I read Job, and I'm like, I don't even understand this. And you kind of recommended me that book by St. Gregory, and I'm like almost done with it, and it's just like, yeah, I can't even, it's like crazy. It's stunning, it's a stunning work. Yeah. So basically, my question is kind of tying that in into some of like the issues that we're facing today. So, this is my question. So, in light of reading Moralia and Job, a scourge can be used to exercise virtue and to imitate Christ. Accepting of the scourges you are given is in accordance with the good, and talking back to the scourge is an act of defiance to God. With a lot of young men right now, there's a lot of obstacles that they have either with trying to buy a home or start a family or dating or a culture run by feminism or other things. But the overall consensus seems to be that there are a lot of trials and scourges in this way facing young men right now. So, my question is do you think these problems are a scourge given from God to young men right now? And if so, do you think that these things can be an opportunity to exercise virtue under scrutiny as well as imitate Christ? That's my question.

SPEAKER_08 1:27:10

Sure. Um, I mean, to the second part, yeah, it's 100% an opportunity for that. Every suffering is. Um, to the first question, I won't presume to say um that God has directly willed it. Um, I mean, I came from a broken family. Our our my childhood is quite good. My parents divorced when I was 22. Um, and uh, but thank God everybody except one has become Catholic. My mom, my dad, and you know, we're still all works in progress. But so I think a lot of this has stemmed from a lot of the younger generation are suffering very, very much from um decisions that uh were largely not made by them. And that's to a certain extent, we're we're you know, we're fallen in atom. That's uh uh an experience that every generation has to one extent or another. Um not to be too kind to the boomers, but many of Them, you know, I actually think a lot of the guys who came back from World War II were very traumatized. And, you know, you just didn't talk about mental issues back in the day. So I think that was one of the reasons why fathers started, you know, kind of stereotypically a lot more distance. So even, you know, even the indulgence of the boomers kind of stemmed from a sort of family breakdown, which just continued to get worse and worse and worse. So yeah, I'm sure we'll have a lot of questions about the issues with young men, but absolutely. One of the things that brought me to the Catholic faith is realizing that Christ literally sanctified all suffering. Before the cross, it was all toil. That was part of the punishment God imposed on Adam. Um after the cross, every suffering, and and trust me, I don't, I'm not a Jedi master at this, and and I don't always like it, that's for sure. But we're in Lent, and so we're trying to embrace it as voluntarily and happily as possible. But in Christ, because of the cross, every suffering has been sanctified and and can be a path to salvation. So 100% on that. Hey, I think that was pretty concise.

SPEAKER_18 1:29:04

Yeah, I think so. All right, Patrick. Patrick, uh, hopefully I see you Sunday at Mass, brother. All right, I'll see you.

SPEAKER_19 1:29:10

Thanks. Nice to meet you, Patrick. All right, next we got uh uh Evan. Evan, you're up, brother. Can you hear us?

SPEAKER_17 1:29:19

Evan going once. Evan going twice. I'll keep you in there. I can hear you. I can hear you. All right, thank you.

SPEAKER_14 1:29:26

Um my question for you uh is do you think Donald Trump is the Antichrist?

SPEAKER_08 1:29:37

Okay, um probably not, but I but look, I'll I'll I'll say something that I I've hinted at publicly, but I don't think I've said public, I've decided I will. Because at this point, you know, Anthony can vouch, and I've had friends I've known longer than Anthony who in 2020 forward I was saying these things. Um so I'm glad that uh the Zoomers and their and their Mr. Fuentes are finally finally catching up to millennial wisdom. Um because I worked in the White House and whatnot. Um, no, I did not vote for him in 2020 or 2024. Um and the reason why there were many, many reasons why. I think I could be wrong. I'm not dogmatic about it. I think there are very good, reasonable people who disagree with me. And so, you know, maybe they're right. But what happened in COVID, uh, for the reasons I already explained, was so anti-Christic, and he was the chief temporal ruler in the world. Um, there's been no apology or repentance for any of it. Um, I think people at this point can firmly conclude um they've been fooled on the principal items that he promised. Um, exhibit thousand and five, you know, this war that we're having in the Middle East now. Um and so I I I think um I think he's a very, very troubling figure.

SPEAKER_18 1:31:00

And he's a very good candidate.

SPEAKER_19 1:31:02

I'll say that. Say that? He's a very good candidate. I've never seen like worship of a man like this before. Is like like some of the things I've seen from him uh I'm are very worrisome. And the conflict he's starting over in Iran right now, they they definitely have my radar going off, but I obviously we can't know.

COVID, Public Worship, And Patristic Signs

SPEAKER_08 1:31:22

Well, and what happened with the vaccine, whatever, um, won't get into all the details right now, but I was I was helping deliver some things from bishops and different Christian and Catholic bioethicists to the administration to basically directly to the vice president to basically beg them to not produce vaccines with uh cells from aborted um fetuses, you know, the cell lines from that. Um that there were better scientific ways, better ethical ways to do that. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. And when when that was finally confirmed, um, and look, we're six years later, so I I haven't really talked about this publicly before. Um, I think it was briefly mentioned in an article with somebody who interviewed me, but I didn't really emphasize it. Um, I told the the vice president I would not write or edit anything he said about these things. And to his credit, he accepted that and he just gave me different things to to say. But I I told him very respectfully, but I'm not gonna write or edit anything you said about this. And if that means I can't work here anymore, then that's fine. Um, so I I had to face some some tough choices in that regard. And um, yeah, I I uh there's a whole lot more to that, but yeah, I think I think there has been so much deception. Um this is not a Trump show, but I yeah, I I yeah, I I I don't support the man, and and there's nothing that's happened since 2021 or 2020 that has um convinced me that that was the wrong choice. And and by the way, when people ask me what kind of conservative I am, I joke medieval. So I'm a very, very conservative person. Um I've never not voted for president, but I did not vote in 2020 or 2024. And at this rate, I don't think I'll be voting in 2028 for president either. Um whole lot of whole lot of detail of this, but just to keep the questions going, I have essentially concluded that we are in a um in uh the the season we are in is when antichristic forces fundamentally control the levers of what was once Christian civilization. Um it's now apostate civilization, and they consistently present as choices that are distinct enough to be able to have to make a choice, but not distinct enough to get us off the road to Antichrist. Um, so I am done with the game. That is my conclusion. And Anthony, you can vouch for me. I've been up front with you. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_19 1:33:47

Josh is Josh is probably one of the first people who got me to so now I just posted the StreamYard link in the chat. Um, so we have we have, I think we have well, let me see. We have three guys lined up, four guys lined up, actually. So um, but I just posted the link in the YouTube chat. So if anybody else wants to jump in, but um yeah, Josh is Josh and I have been talking about this a lot. Is it's definitely he was the first one to get me to start looking at Trump differently, to be honest. Um, I was very caught up in the fervor in the most recent election, and then when things started going south and I started getting a really bad feeling, I I was talking to Josh about it and I was like, oh man, he he started you know telling me some things that I was like, oh man, this guy.

SPEAKER_08 1:34:35

So um a lot of this wasn't I went to work at the White House, and I think there are good people there, and I think I could be wrong. I just look at the man's actions, I look at the promises. I mean, even just today, you know, apparently transiting your kids is fine. That was later amended, and yeah, who knows? The very first day of the new administration, we've got this Operation Stargate that's interestingly named, with respect to AI, you know, so many things. Um, the inflation that definitely got worse under Biden started under Trump. Okay. It wasn't Biden who signed a more than six trillion dollar bill that where we had de facto communism in the United States of America. Was not Biden. Okay. So I think Yeah, this could be a whole long topic, which we want to get to more questions. But I think if you look clear-eyed at the actions, what has happened is that all the people who should be the most discerning have been the most duped. And I think everybody is if they're not starting, we haven't even mentioned Epstein, haven't even mentioned it. Um but if people are finally starting to maybe think that, and it's about time. And I don't see it say that with scolding, it's it's anger at these these these rulers, these wicked men, um who, if they expended half the amount of effort in our own country that they did in these wars blasting civilians to hell, maybe we'd be in a better place. But I I am just uh so this is the first time I've like out and out. I am no longer I've never pretended about this, I've alluded to it. I am I am calling out that this is wicked and evil, and something is very, very wrong with what is going on.

SPEAKER_19 1:36:23

Ocean, if you want to come on without showing your face, like Andrew's coming on without showing his face, you could do that. So, Andrew, if you gotta turn your mic on, your mic's muted. There you go. Andrew? Your mic's not muted anymore, but all right. I'm gonna leave you in the green room. All right, Austin, you're up. Austin, what's up, Austin? Hey, how you doing?

SPEAKER_08 1:36:46

Hey, the first person shows their face.

SPEAKER_12 1:36:48

Yeah, well, um, so uh I actually have a more of a like liturgical question. It's not like eschatology, but uh like I really disagree with like almost a lot of what you guys say. I just like I I'm kind of you've come on before, right?

SPEAKER_19 1:37:04

Austin, yeah, you came on last time, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:37:09

Um I I just wait, you disagree with me? Nope, can't talk to you.

SPEAKER_12 1:37:13

He disagrees with like my liturgical positions and stuff, but I still like how how do you get to the um conclusion I think both of you have either alluded to or just stated outright that the Tridentine mass is like better or superior version? Because I've gone to like several, and like every single time it's just worse than the standard Nova Soldo I got to. How is it worse? Uh the Latin's worse. Uh you can't hear the entire Roman canon. And in uh, I don't particularly like the fact that the layout doesn't say the Partonoster, uh stuff like that. I know I'm probably pissing off your entire chat right now, but uh stuff like that. I think um there have been several where they say oremus and then they just muddle the rest of the collect, stuff like that. Uh um also hearing a Tridentine mass where they the priest doesn't like particularly know Latin is uh I don't know, it's it's actually like tormendously.

SPEAKER_19 1:38:12

I will say this, I've been to Latin masses where the priest's Latin was worse than mine, and mine isn't great. But I can't I have to say, I I mean, I obviously completely disagree with you. I I've uh just going to the Latin mass steadily for the past uh eight years now, it's been transformative in my life. I mean, I I guess you have a very subjective take on it. I would say uh just the the reverence given to the Eucharist itself, um, the reverence given to even even the liturgy itself and how careful the the priest is in reading the it in reading the rubrics and when you actually I know the chat's trying to say that the sent there's a problem with the link.

SPEAKER_08 1:38:57

I just wanted to mention it before oh is there yeah.

SPEAKER_18 1:39:01

Oh man. Uh let me see if I could try it again. I don't know.

SPEAKER_08 1:39:04

Um Austin, I I appreciate I'm gonna let Anthony keep me. I appreciate you mentioning I I don't mind getting people who disagree asking questions at all. What I mind is when people are uh you know just incourteous and and take the absolute most negative interpretation of everything and then proceed accordingly. That's what I think I really mind.

SPEAKER_12 1:39:25

No, I get all of that, and like when you you you see your like I'm just gonna say your standard like tradentine mass, it is more relevant than your standard diocesan mass. Like that's really not a question I'm arguing, but what when I see like the two whites compared, well, same white, but two different forms a little as you compare it side by side. I I don't think it is in the rubrics or the way the white is said with the Roman canon. I I don't see how the tradentine form is better.

Temple Questions, Israel, And Modern Jerusalem

SPEAKER_08 1:39:54

Anthony, were you still fixing the link? I don't want to yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh I just give some thoughts or yeah, go ahead. Absolutely. Yeah, um, well, are are you? I'm just curious. Uh and I don't I don't say cradles are intrinsically superior or converts or intrinsically, that's stupid. Um, though the apostles are all converts, I must say. Are you a cradle Catholic or a convert?

SPEAKER_12 1:40:15

Yeah, so I'm a cradle Catholic. Um a lot of position in my life, I did go to like what you would I think nicely called a clown mass. Uh so like I I am like aware of the like problems in a lot of the diocese. I just don't think it's a form of the mass that is a problem. It's really just laxadaisical priests. Because if you see the new order of the mass as celebrated as relevantly as the Tridentine Masses goes, I think it's better.

SPEAKER_08 1:40:46

Okay, so um, okay, so maybe make it a little more concrete for me. Where is a part of the Mass, and by the way, I go to a daily Novus Ordo fairly frequently. My home parish is TLM, which I far prefer. Um, but uh so I I try not to encourage um Catholic ghettos in this regard, but I also am fulsome in my praise of the of the ancient right. So what would be a let's assume the best, like the Tridentine, the I I don't even like calling it Tridentine, ancient Latin mass, traditional Latin mass, because it's not Tridentine, the Council of Trent simply codified what was there already. Um and it also codified rights that had been up to 200 years old. That was you had that was the youngest you could be. So so it's I don't, you know, you you didn't do anything wrong, but I I don't like calling it the Tridentine mask for that reason. But um what would be a part if you took the Novus Ordo, the most reverently celebrated and the TLM most reverently celebrated? What part do you think is uh maybe the best example of the Novus Ordo being better?

SPEAKER_12 1:41:44

Uh the fact that you hear the Roman canon.

SPEAKER_08 1:41:47

I see. Okay.

SPEAKER_12 1:41:48

So you so you're some oh go ahead, sorry. Yeah, because the Roman canon is probably the most beautiful prayer we have. Uh and when you go to the Trinity Mass, you don't hear it, you have to read it off a sheet. And like if it is to me to be more edifying to the laity, uh if you have to read, that is disqualifying of basically everyone in history of seeing and knowing the prayers of the Mass.

SPEAKER_08 1:42:12

Well, I mean, it's just a fact that more Catholics in history prayed under the TLM.

SPEAKER_12 1:42:18

Right, but uh it that's true. Yeah but that's why I think the Novel Soto was an improvement for the laity to hear it. Because most people didn't have sheets where they could read the prayers, even if they did have the sheets, they couldn't read anyways.

SPEAKER_08 1:42:36

No, I I see what you're saying. I just think it'd be a very involved discussion, and there's there's some premises that you bring to it, which I think are worth discussing. So, you know, my whole family has come in basically through the TLM, and we were raised in Protestantism and and sort of non-denominational whatever. And so um it's just very funny. Let me let me give I'll give you let me give you an anecdote that I think will illustrate my general approach to this so that we can I'll let Anthony control whether we move on to another question just because Yeah, we gotta keep this one a little quick because this is like a this is like a pull-out conversation. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_19 1:43:10

Let me give one anecdote though.

SPEAKER_08 1:43:12

So my sister Nancy, amazing conversion story. Check out episode 16 on Eternal Christmas, LGPTQ, almost suicide, almost went the trans route. I mean, crazy story. She's she's a she's a blessing to many people as to many other people as well. So um she comes into the Latin Mass, our local parish. That's all she knows. She and I, you know, at this point, we haven't had any discussion about Vatican II, no discussions about um uh uh Sacrosanum Conchilium, no discussions about any of it. Okay. Um she one day there's a holy day of obligation. She has to go to a Novus Ordo parish because of work, and uh, you know, very standard novus ordo, very normal. It's not particularly worse, not particularly better, just the standard Novus Ordo parish in our dias diocese. She's utterly and completely scandalized by how people by how people are treating the Eucharist. And and and and she she literally was crying, and and she she was scandalized by frankly, even women lectors up there, which is also unprecedented in the history of the church. And it's not because we hate women, it's just that traditionally women did not belong at the altar, frankly. Um, and and a lot of these things that when you actually look into a communion of the hand, whatnot, it started as abuses that were actually disobeying what Rome was saying, and then Rome kind of just let it happen. That's what happened in a lot of these cases. So, so I know you uh you you would acknowledge that, right? So what I'm saying is, but what I'm saying is that there are so many elements of the TLM that go into my my my mom and stepdad, again, lifelong Protestants, megachurch type stuff. They go off to vacation in Florida one time. My mom is frantically texting me one time. She's like, is this where we're supposed to be? I'm like, where are you? They're like, we're at a Catholic parish, we think. They like they literally didn't know because and they had never had this discussion with me. So the point is that the TLM catechized them in a very particular way that no discussions about Vatican II, no discussions of recent church history, none of that was even necessary. They knew that what they were seeing was a travesty. Now, of course, that's not every Novus Ordo mass, of course not. But I would argue, and it'd be too involved to get into, I'll follow Anthony's lead on this, it's their show. I would just argue there are many, many elements of the traditional Latin mass that inculcate this sort of Eucharistic piety that because of the flexibility endemic to the Novus Ordo, um other things too, but but it that all right, we're gonna we're gonna wrap this one up. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_19 1:45:48

All right, awesome. Thanks for the call, brother. Um, okay, let's go with uh I gotta get uh Ocean on. Yeah, Cranmer's God of the Godly Order is very good.

SPEAKER_08 1:45:58

What's up, Ocean? Oh man, this guy. All right, he's been wanting to goad me for like days now. How you doing?

SPEAKER_20 1:46:07

Hello?

SPEAKER_08 1:46:12

We can hear you. We hear you.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:19

Hello?

SPEAKER_20 1:46:20

Yeah, can you hear us?

SPEAKER_05 1:46:22

Okay, so I just I just turned it on on my phone. I just turned the live stream on on my phone, so it's gonna be a little delayed. But how are you guys? Good. Can you hear us? Finally here.

SPEAKER_08 1:46:32

You can.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:33

Oh, it's so delayed. It's a delay. Oh, come on. I was just thinking questions.

SPEAKER_19 1:46:41

All right. I also got Sam Shimon texting me. He wants to come on.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:45

Okay, okay. So I'm just gonna ask the question, okay? So when the kingdom of Satan, Israel, when it finally takes over the world, and the ice walls at the end of our very flat earth fall, and all the agarthans come out and they kill everybody. Will Italians be included in the Agarthan race? This is a very hot point of contention. I need this answer.

SPEAKER_07 1:47:09

I hope not you guys are ruthless.

SPEAKER_19 1:47:14

I hope all right, we're gonna have to remove you, Osha, because your audio is horrible, bro.

SPEAKER_08 1:47:20

All right, I've been seeing OCW, whatever that's from, uh, for like a few days. I know he's been excited, and I saw the Agartha thing too. It's funny.

SPEAKER_19 1:47:28

Oh man, that's too funny. All right, we're gonna go with Catholic Canadian. He's up. What's up, brother?

SPEAKER_15 1:47:34

Oh, yo, what's going on? Okay, so you're the Catholic Dave Ramsey, right? So I just bought a car that was sixty thousand dollars and I make like maybe ninety thousand dollars Canadian, mind you, a year. And I'm just wondering, like, with uh$1,300 all in a month, you know, insurance with the car payments,$800. Is this a good investment? Like, I already bit the trigger here, but like did I did I make a mistake or is my wife gonna have to leave me for financial abuse?

SPEAKER_19 1:48:07

Dave Ramsey questions. I want John Deloney questions. I want you to call me and tell me you're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_15 1:48:10

Well, John, John, you gotta understand, like, my wife is putting up with this, but like, is she is she in an area where she could leave me for financial abuse? Because we got we got our little son here, and like oh adorable, is is it is it are we doing something wrong here? Like, we're we're thinking about five thousand dollars a month.

SPEAKER_19 1:48:32

It's a financial infidelity, and I think that your wife has every right to leave you, and it may even be grounds for annulment. That car was a bad purchase, but we're we're gonna move on, Cavage Video. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_15 1:48:44

But one thing, one thing, we are co-sleeping, and this marriage is you guys are in trouble. You guys are but she's Vietnamese, she's Vietnamese, so it's cultural. Like, where we're at here, Anthony. Also, all right, shout out to Anthony from Maryland, Anthony from Maryland. You'll know who you are.

SPEAKER_19 1:49:06

Get some uh serious questions on you. Very funny, Catholic Canadian. Appreciate you, brother. Thanks. All right, uh, who we got next? We got uh Mr. C. Layman.

SPEAKER_13 1:49:18

Hey guys, how are you? Good evening. Hi thank you, and thank you for hosting this, and Mr. Charles, thank you so much for Trental Christendom. I'll try to make it quick.

SPEAKER_08 1:49:26

Josh, you're fine, by the way. I appreciate it though.

SPEAKER_13 1:49:28

Yes, man. Uh in terms of Catholic translations into English, don't you think we need a uh a new uh from the bottom up Catholic Bible translation? You know, the RSB is good and all, but like maybe one based on the Vulgate and of the old Septuagint, um, only because the Masoretic text came after you know their post Talmudic or post Second Temple Judaism, and it has arguably some you know uh Jewish tendencies to mitigate, you know, the Messiah who you know they did deny. Christ and maybe even like the early church fathers who the standard currently or still is the shaft set of the pre-nicene fathers. So I wonder if eternal Christendom can speak about that.

Passion Of The Church And Peter’s Weakness

SPEAKER_08 1:50:11

I think um the Augustine Institute is working on this. They'll have the uh C S T Catholic Standard Translation. And I don't I don't remember the exact timeline for it, but I think maybe perhaps 2030 or so or the late 2020s. Um so I think the Augustine Institute is actually working on this too. Part of it, I my understanding is which is admittedly very basic, but uh you know some of the Protestant companies have a stranglehold on some of the English translations in America. So yeah, that's my understanding, and I'm I'm excited about the project. They're trying to you know go make the most, make the best, get all the scholars together, all the best manuscripts, and and do it.

SPEAKER_19 1:50:48

So one one one sp one specific part in Philippians 2, 6, where uh Paul's saying uh Christ being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God, who existing in the form of God counted not being in equality with God, a thing to be grasped. I always wanted that word grasped to be changed to exploited. Like he he did not count equality with God a thing to be exploited, right? Like he could have at any moment crushed his enemies, but he didn't consider equality with God a thing to be exploited. But they use the word grasped. I was never a fan of that, but yeah, so it's a it's a good question, Mr. C. Thank you, brother.

SPEAKER_13 1:51:27

All right, take care.

SPEAKER_19 1:51:28

Um, okay, let me see who we got next. Um, okay, I want to just see. Oh boy, oh boy, what Sam Shimoon? What is happening, brother?

SPEAKER_11 1:51:42

What's oh boy, dude? What's right?

SPEAKER_08 1:51:44

I've never met you, Mr. Shamoon. It's good to meet you.

SPEAKER_11 1:51:46

Well, I haven't met you either, friend. You've seen a little larger me now. I gotta lose that weight that Anthony gained.

SPEAKER_19 1:51:53

How are you, brother?

SPEAKER_11 1:51:54

Uh, I survive by his grace. Need your prayers as I'm learning, relearning, unlearning. So that's why I came up because you said something about the antichrist. And this is where I need to learn. I get I came out of Christian Zionism, dispensationalism, heavily pro-Israel, it's all about Israel, almost like the church's plan B. Studying scripture, I saw that's a perversion of scripture, but I wanted to ask you because you said something. Are you saying according to church history they do believe that there will be a third temple and that the Antichrist has to be Jewish? Because I need to study what the early church fathers prior to the rise of dispensationalism taught. I don't want to I don't want to follow, you know, dispensationalism.

unknown 1:52:47

Sure.

SPEAKER_11 1:52:48

You know, John L. Darby and Schofield per version of scripture. But what did the church teach?

SPEAKER_08 1:52:54

As far as I can tell, and I I've been reading a lot of the fathers on this over the last number of years, they are unanimous on I'll say two, but if I'm thinking about it, if I come with a third, then I'll just add it. But two points. One, that the Jews will receive him as a false Messiah, so that's true. Um, and then second, that the Jews will convert. There will be some sort of conversion to Messiah after that. Now, on the temple, um, I was actually just reviewing some of the sources today. There is not a unanimous opinion that Antichrist will rebuild the temple. So that the temple um coming from 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul saying he'll sit in the temple of God. So some fathers, uh Saint Jerome was actually more of this opinion, as was St. John Chrysostom believed it would be the church. The temple would be the church. Um although Christostom, but Christom, I think, in other places kind of makes it seem like he's open to the temple idea. Jerome says that one of the opinions out there is that it will be a rebuilt Jewish temple. Um he doesn't outright reject it, but he says, I happen to think it's the church. Saint Augustine um outlines these various positions, but doesn't take a stance in the city of God. Um, but quite a few of the fathers, um, I was just reading a father many people are not familiar with, St. Gregory Thalmaturgus, um, which uh oh gosh, what does it mean? Something about like a godly mouth or no, that's Christmas, but it's a God, God Wonderworker. That's right. So Wonderworker, I think is what it is. And um, he's in this in the 200s, and he believed that Antichrist would rebuild the temple, um, a Jewish temple in Jerusalem. So so there is a split opinion on this. Um, I think at the very least, what we can say with with strong certainty, I wouldn't say infallible certainty, but since since we can be infallibly sure that the Jews will initially receive Antichrist as Messiah, um, I think we can be have a strong, reasonable belief that Antichrist will at least make an attempt, or at least will put out the offer of making a third temple a Jewish temple in Jerusalem. So that's I think as far as we can go um as far as what we claim to be certain and dogmatic about. So that's why, that's why, you know, my oath into the church, I read the language earlier, it talks about, you know, I will never interpret scripture against the unanimous consensus of the fathers. And so I always try to start with where are the fathers unanimous? Because those provide the red lines, and then as long as we color within those red lines. So yeah.

SPEAKER_11 1:55:16

That's why I'm asking. I want to be within the tradition of church. So two final things, guys. I know you're busy. So if the temple is the church, because I thought I've read somewhere that some said it was, does that mean then antichrist will infiltrate the church? In other words, an infiltration of the Catholic Church.

SPEAKER_19 1:55:34

I I this is uh something Josh and I have have talked about. Like it's I I think that you you would think that the abomination of desolation has to happen in the church. So whether that's some some kind of worship of a foreign god in in the Catholic Church, but I don't I think it's I think almost all of the fathers say that the Pope could never be the Antichrist, right? Like, I think we can't we can't come to that.

SPEAKER_08 1:56:02

Yeah, that's my I mean if they mention it at all, yeah. And Bellerman pretty strongly camps down on that. And I'm trying to find a quote.

SPEAKER_11 1:56:10

There's a quote because I don't understand that position. If he's if the temple is the church, but then Paul says he'll enter the temple, sit on the throne, make himself out to be that's that's that's why I tend to think they're gonna rebuild the third temple. So that's what I'm trying to say. Because if it's the church, then it means the church will be infiltrated and he'll take over because it says he sits in the seat of God, right? He's gonna make himself out to be God. And if that's the church, what does it mean to sit on the seat of the seat of God?

SPEAKER_18 1:56:42

It's not the chair of Peter. That's not the chair of Peter, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_11 1:56:46

Yeah, that's I think I don't know.

Call-Ins Open: Format And Ground Rules

SPEAKER_08 1:56:48

I think you know, again, this is all very speculative. I mean, we have Christ's promises about the indefectibility of the church that does continue to the end. Um, you know, his promise to the apostles and their successors in Matthew 28, that he will be with them to the end of the age, that you know, the church will never be defeated by hell, etc. Um, you know, this is where Ticonius is very interesting. Ticonius believes, I mentioned him earlier, he believed that the anti-church was the abomination of desolation. And that again, once this sort of restraining power, whatever it is, once it ceases, that this anti-church, you know, sort of, you know, blossoms, a sort of diabolical blossoming. Um, and I think if we just look at the passion narrative of our Lord, we'll get some of the answers we want or or that we're seeking. Um, you know, we have Judas, the Judas element, um, and then he teams up with the Romans. Um, but then when um when our Lord starts really undergoing the passion, the other apostles, except John, leave. They scatter. And so the only people that remained with our Lord up to the cross were St. John, our lady, and a few women. And so, you know, in light of Our Lady of Fatima, in light of those sorts of things, perhaps, I don't know. It's an imaginable scenario to me where perhaps the throne of Peter is just unoccupied. And perhaps, you know, it's kind of like maybe I think Antichrist could potentially be a sort of Napoleonic sort of figure where the Pope's going to coronate him, but then before the Pope coronates him, he takes the crown and puts it on himself. So it may be something like that. Um I don't think it negates the indefectibility or infallibility of the church, but I do think um there's there's an amazing, I don't I for some my these apps aren't working on my iPad, but um, there's an amazing quote I've often shared from Saint Pope Gregory the Great from the Morale on Job. So the moral so just so you guys know, I we mentioned this, I think it was Patrick before. The morale on Job is like this thick, it's as long as City of God plus Augustine's Confessions, and then some. Thomas, when he did his his commentary on Job, said, um, St. Moe Gregory the Great has has done the moral explanation so well that I can't even compare. So I'm just gonna move on to this other this other way of interpreting it. So so it's really, really incredible. And so one of the ways he interprets Job is as a picture of the true church, and his friends and his wife and whatever who are pestering him are like heretics and schismatics and pagans and whatnot. So he he interprets it all very, very typologically. So there's a part where he's talking about Leviathan. I'm forgetting the citation. Just look it up and type in Gregory the Great, Antichrist, Passion of the Church, something something along those lines you'll find it.

SPEAKER_11 1:59:23

Yeah, Joe Fox.

Suffering As Scourge And Virtue Formation

SPEAKER_08 1:59:24

But he basically says that in the days preceding the advent of this Leviathan, that that the basically the state of the church will be the worst it's ever been. And there are a few things he says. He says the penances will be weaker. That sounds familiar. He says that there will be fewer miracles. Yeah, perhaps. He says the words of doctrine will fall silent uh in the church just before Antichrist arrives. So I don't claim to know exactly what it will look like, but I think um, you know, one of the greatest scourges in the church before Luther and whatnot was absentee bishops, you know, bishops who had multiple dioceses and like sometimes didn't show up at all in their diocese. So maybe that's what it will be like. Um, and maybe Antichrist will presume to sort of sit on one of these cathedral, maybe even Peter's, and of course not be a Pope, but but but maybe he'll take it. Maybe the church will be totally underground in those three and a half years where Antichrist prevents the mass from being celebrated publicly. I I don't know for sure. I just know it won't be good. And I know that if we uh the the the the scenario I propose to people sometimes is imagine the apostles had set up a debate with the Pharisees for Holy Saturday for is is Jesus, is our teacher, is our rabbi, the Messiah. Well, on Holy Saturday, it would have been it would have appeared completely foolish to defend that proposition. Because like the guy's dead and in a tomb. And so I think the passion of the church will, unless we understand with the eyes of faith that something like that is happening or will happen, um, I think we will we will be scandalized and not be able to make it to Easter Sunday. So that that's just that's a something I put out there for consideration.

SPEAKER_11 2:01:05

The the final I'm sorry, brother, I just want to ask this final one because I want to be No apology for me. Yeah, it's the final one is I've read the New Testament, and when I died to dispensationalism, I saw I cannot find anywhere where the modern lawlessness has to be Jewish. I haven't seen that in the New Testament. Say that say that one more time. Nowhere that I've read in the New Testament that the man of sin oh I see will be Jewish.

SPEAKER_19 2:01:32

I don't think he'll be ethnically Jewish. I think that's why I want to ask what's the church's teaching? I think well, we talked about it a little bit before that the tribe uh he's going to be from the tribe of Dan.

SPEAKER_08 2:01:42

Majority, that's a majority opinion, not a unanimous opinion.

SPEAKER_19 2:01:45

Not unanimous, majority.

SPEAKER_11 2:01:49

This party is that he'll be from the tribe of Dan.

SPEAKER_19 2:01:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So now the tribe of Dan is the ten northern tribes, right?

SPEAKER_11 2:01:56

Dan is part of the mention Revelation 7. That's what I'm trying to figure out. Is that why correct? Dan is one of the one tribe not mentioned in Revelation 7.

SPEAKER_19 2:02:04

Yeah, so he'll be from the tribe of Dan. But the tribe of Dan is this is when when the northern kingdom breaks off, they're dispersed amongst the Gentiles, so much so that they are Gentiles. So so he will he will probably be a Gentile, and then they then they will claim he is a descendant of David.

SPEAKER_11 2:02:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_19 2:02:23

So I don't think that that's one.

SPEAKER_08 2:02:25

This is one of the more speculative questions, just to be the father.

SPEAKER_11 2:02:28

You don't have to subscribe to it.

SPEAKER_08 2:02:30

Correct, correct.

SPEAKER_11 2:02:30

So if you guys can do me a favor, Anthony, if whatever material has, can you send it to me? I want to study this because I want to now really know what the church taught, what's dogmatic, where you have to follow, and what's an opinion that can agree or disagree because I don't want to go beyond what is taught. So if you guys have any information, you got my number, send that to me.

SPEAKER_19 2:02:48

Sam, I'd also like to send something on you soon, man. I miss talking with you. I was waiting for a year, man.

SPEAKER_11 2:02:52

We're supposed to do something on Trinity.

SPEAKER_19 2:02:55

No, we definitely will. I love I love diving into the old testament with you, Sam. Thank you for calling. Thanks, man. Love you guys.

SPEAKER_11 2:03:00

Love you guys.

SPEAKER_19 2:03:00

Make sure to send me stuff, Anthony. Absolutely. Um, all right. So who we got? I love Sam. Sam's awesome. Oh good. That's hilarious. Uh, Chapo, you're up. What's up, Chapo? You're on uh your mic's muted.

SPEAKER_14 2:03:12

Hey, can you guys hear me?

SPEAKER_19 2:03:14

Yep. Yes.

SPEAKER_14 2:03:15

Uh, first off, I was just gonna let you know. I I changed the name here just so that people wouldn't be able to look me up, but I'm the same officer from that uh from that drowning. Oh wow, yeah. I appreciate you guys uh talking about that. If you guys could keep the officer who actually did C PR on the kid in your prayers, too, he's been having a pretty rough time as it of it as a as of late.

SPEAKER_08 2:03:32

What drowning is this?

SPEAKER_14 2:03:34

Uh well, I don't know if you want to catch him up so I don't take up too much time afterwards.

SPEAKER_19 2:03:37

Or yeah, so so uh Chapo is a as a police officer in Arizona, a baby drowned, and uh a fellow officer resuscitated the baby, they got him to the hospital. When he got to the hospital, the doctor pronounced the baby dead. The the mother was like, He's still the baby's still moving. The doctor was like, No, that's just gases like releasing from the baby's body. They put the baby in the morgue for five hours, and five hours later, they took the baby out, and the baby was showing signs of life. They resuscitated the baby, the baby made a miraculous recovery. Wow, Chapel has a baby that's one year a year old, and he was like, I thank God I did not have to perform like any kind of CPR on that baby. He was like very trying, but we and the this he told us that story privately, and then we read the story in the news uh yesterday that's on Tuesday's show. It was just wild. So wow, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_14 2:04:28

Yeah, yeah, no, it's a and another quick tidbit there, too, is that the uh the detective's name on that case is Ferrer. Little kid's name, the combined name there is Vincent Ferrer, which obviously Vincent Ferrer has stories about saving drowning children and drowning people, stuff like that. Just a funny coincidence, but um overall though, pretty simple question for you. My extent with reading of Church Fathers was basically just having Jimmy Aiken's book about those tidbits of the fathers, just more so as a reference book. Do you have any recommendations for books to actually start getting started on reading the church fathers? Like, do you have any place to start that you would recommend?

SPEAKER_08 2:05:06

Yeah, uh, what's your bandwidth for roughly how much you can read?

SPEAKER_14 2:05:10

Uh I mean, I get through everything, just takes me a little bit more time, especially with the one kiddo, and we're if she's pregnant with another. So um, I just I I get uh whatever time that we have to to read, I get through it. It might just take me a bit. So honestly, I'll I'll have a big old book there. And if it takes me a couple months, it takes me a couple months.

Is Trump The Antichrist? Prudence And Power

SPEAKER_08 2:05:27

Okay. Yeah, a lot of people ask me. I need to I need to compile a list of like short, short-length works, medium-length, longer. Um, I mean, certainly start with the letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch, uh, the Didic, um, the letter of St. Clement of Rome, a Pope, uh, to the Corinthian Church, um, basically any volume of the Apostolic Fathers, I think the Catholic University of America Press, you can see them over here and over here. They're kind of bluish color. Um, Jimmy Aiken. If the is that really Jimmy Aiken?

SPEAKER_19 2:05:59

Uh yeah, Jimmy Aiken in the chat? No. Okay. I wasn't sure.

SPEAKER_08 2:06:05

Because I actually do recommend his The Fathers Know Best as a good introduction. I think it's great. Um, Eternal Christian is working on something we think will be better. Not a physical book, but something else. So hopefully more announcements around Easter or so, maybe a little bit after. But um, yeah, Apostolic Fathers, I'd start with. Um uh The Incarnation of the Word, Athanasius. Um uh, I mean St. Augustine has I there's a lesser-known work of his called The Christian Combat, which is really, really amazing. Faith of the Early Fathers is kind of a more extensive Jimmy Aikens uh compilation, so it's it's it's tidbits. So it sounded like Chapo, Chapo, you were wanting to read whole works, correct?

SPEAKER_14 2:06:45

Yeah, yeah. Just to get started on that, because I'm using the Aiken book kind of as like a reference book to just kind of look up a topic so then I can go in deeper.

SPEAKER_08 2:06:53

But start with the Apostolic Fathers. I mean, honestly, there are too many treasures among the fathers. Uh I'll tell you one that is really good. The ancient Christian writer set, which is right above me here. They have um published some of the works of Saint Isidore of Seville. He is one of my absolute favorite church fathers. Um, his work, um oh man, why I'm De Efici is one of them. Um, Offices in the Church. Why am I forgetting the other one? I'm forgetting the name of it at the moment, but it's uh it just look up Ancient Christian Writer set, Saint Isidore of Seville. It's got moral exhortations that are unbelievable, theological explanations that are unbelievable. So if you want like a longer work, um oh boy. Um if uh sorry, Jeff Epstein showed up on the screens. Um, but that that would be though. I mean, honestly, if you asked me this this this uh question on another day, I'd probably, besides the Apostolic Fathers, I'd probably give another set of suggestions. It's just there's so so many amazing things to work out. But Apostolic Fathers, Incarnation of the Word, um any of St. Augustine's shorter works. Uh oh, the catechetical series of Saint Cyril of Jerusalem. He wrote, I think 24, 25 of them. They're really amazing going through the sacraments, um, the creed. Those are really great.

SPEAKER_19 2:08:12

So I think all right, enough book recommendations. Let's go, Josh. We got other people. All right, sorry, sorry. Thank you, brother. Yeah, no problem.

SPEAKER_14 2:08:21

Appreciate the prayers. Thank you.

SPEAKER_19 2:08:22

Adios. Um, all right, we got Tony, we got another face, a fa a face shower. What's up, Tone? Oh boy, how you go?

SPEAKER_00 2:08:32

Um, so just a bit of context. Um, so I'm part of a movement of a group of men around Australia. We meet on the first Saturdays in public and and offer reparations and pray for the conversion of sin.

SPEAKER_19 2:08:44

What time is it there right now?

SPEAKER_00 2:08:45

Uh now it's about two o'clock in the afternoon. Wow.

SPEAKER_20 2:08:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:49

Yeah. So um so yeah, we meet regularly. Um, so there's there's groups all around the country and we're connected with men around the globe. It's a movement we believe started in Poland. Um, so we obviously in that context, because we're in public and we're praying, we get about a thousand men, I reckon, across the country on that day. Um my question is we I generally I have come across like younger men who are Protestants and I always bring up Matthew 5 or Matthew 6 about praying privately. And obviously, I can't tell them why the church tradition is because they're not going to accept it. So I was curious if there was some insight that the fathers have any commentary or insight on that about public prayer, um, so that I could point to them in that direction, because that could probably assist them. And then just the general question around it's so hard to get men to stop complaining and come on their knees and pray and actually do something. Um, like any insight there? Because I struggle with that. Like, because I'm I'm the type where I don't like complaining, I just like to do it. Gets me in trouble a lot of the time. But um, yeah, how old are you, Tone? Uh 35.

SPEAKER_19 2:09:57

35. Uh, what do you got, Josh? You got any good insights? Matthew 15.

SPEAKER_08 2:10:02

Um, I mean, the fathers talk about prayer everywhere. As far as their comments about periods of public prayer, there's a Catholic University of America book, um, St. Augustine's sermons on the liturgical seasons. So there's sermons about Christmas, about Epiphany, about Lent, about Easter, um, all those different, and they're they're just amazing. And so it's, you know, public different um seasons of of the church. So that would probably be a good, you know, decent place to start if that's kind of what you're thinking. Um, as far as uh the young men, I look, I'm very excited about what a lot of what's happening among young men. I'm also very concerned. I will simply say, you know, when I help start a fraternity at my university, my almater, um it's uh most people want to receive than to give. Um leaders are necessarily rare. Um and and a lot of men, a lot of young men in particular, um, and that you know, we're all subject to this in a certain way. So I I have to look myself in the mirror and be careful about this myself sometimes. But but a lot of young men I think talk much bigger games than they act. And and so I think that's part of just the bane of Adam with most people. Um what's changed my life is just regularity and schedule, regularity in liturgy, regularity and rosary. Um, I mean, I can I mean Anthony, I'm sure has got thoughts on this, but I agree with you. There is there is a lot of complaining, and I think some of those complaints are valid.

SPEAKER_20 2:11:27

They're totally valid.

SPEAKER_08 2:11:28

I think a lot of men are rediscovering these ancient things that they've been robbed of. And so they should. There are anger can be justified. Uh, but but if it gets into sin, you know, in your anger, do not sin, as the apostle says.

SPEAKER_19 2:11:42

So uh send send them my rant where I went on for an hour and a half yelling at young men to stop complaining. Maybe that'll help them. Yeah, they'll either love it or hate it and say, Why did you send me this idiot? So oh man, Tone. I've uh people are asking if you're the last. Uh Australian uh Catholic. So nah, mate.

SPEAKER_00 2:12:04

There's plenty of faithful men out here. Um, like I'm a revert. Um, I was like a rabid atheist for most of my um young life. Um so no, there's plenty of good Catholic men out there. Come down, there's a rosary in every major city. Um, I'm gonna prom promote it here. But um, mate, I would just say, like, start one up. That's what I did, and now I get like 30 people come. Like, I'm small, but the boys in the city, they get about 500 guys every first. So, and that's just by grace. There was no big plan, no money, no nothing. People just came.

SPEAKER_19 2:12:37

So, that's make good make good friendships with those 30 guys you meet up with, man. Plan pilgrimages together and just spend time together, like surrounding yourself. Oh, yeah, love those boys.

SPEAKER_00 2:12:46

We just had our first uh first retreat, and we had about a hundred guys rock up, so it was that's awesome.

SPEAKER_19 2:12:52

That's that's really that's really awesome. I don't know. God's look, I as messy as things are, God's still doing something, man. So really, really happy you called in. Thank you, Tone.

SPEAKER_08 2:13:02

And I will say, Anthony and I have talked about this. I know he's leaving, but um uh one of the things I'm most excited about with young men is it does seem like there's a revival of fraternity, um, a desire for it, where it seemed like you know, many of our our father's generation um that was not as apparent. So yeah, what's up, Christopher?

SPEAKER_04 2:13:20

What's up, Chris? Hey, what's up, guys? Am I coming in? Yes, okay, great. Uh, thanks for having me on. I've been following both of you guys since before I was even Catholic. You've helped me so much in my faith journey. I appreciate you both. Uh, you have your own unique gifts that you offer to the church, uh, pretty distinct between the both of you, but you're both awesome. Us differently. I like you both a lot. Yeah, uh, my question for you, Josh, was going to be um, I'm a novice when it comes to eschatology. I I don't really know a lot uh beyond your basics. Where would be a good point for me to get started? I know that Anthony just said that he was sick of the book recommends, but I'm gonna need at least one more from you.

SPEAKER_19 2:14:09

That's a good one. I'm I'm even interested in that if you got a good one.

SPEAKER_08 2:14:12

You know, most of my thoughts in eschatology have come from studying scripture book by book, which I have more to do. You can it's infinite scripture. Yeah, I mean, so honestly, it's come less from reading other people's books and more like reading a bunch of the fathers. Yeah, that I have that one. I've heard it's very good. The end of the present world. This was St. Therese's favorite book, yeah. So you can't go wrong with that one.

SPEAKER_04 2:14:36

Yeah, okay, awesome. And then uh one other one for you, Josh. Um, I read entertaining ourselves to death on your recommendation. Yeah, amusing, yes. I always get a mix up.

SPEAKER_08 2:14:49

No, that's fine.

SPEAKER_04 2:14:50

Uh, is there another book similar in terms of um understanding epistemology or logic that you would recommend?

SPEAKER_08 2:15:00

Epistemology or logic? When you say similar, like you mean kind of like a social commentary kind of thing?

SPEAKER_04 2:15:07

Um not necessarily. So, like, in regard to amusing ourselves to death, what I thought was so interesting about it was understanding the development of epistemology and how it's affecting us contemporarily. So I'm I'm just wondering if there are any other epistemologic epistemological works that you would recommend, or if you're more interested in the social aspect of the world.

Novus Ordo vs TLM: Reverence And Praxis

SPEAKER_08 2:15:31

There's plenty of there's plenty of philosophical niceties I am not super familiar with. Um, I have some friends of mine who are studying philosophy. They'd be able to probably give a no, not probably they would be able to give a better answer, but I think one that may, it's not strictly epistemological, but I think it'd be really good kind of laying out the philosophical roots of a lot of modern issues is a book by Richard Weaver called Ideas Have Consequences. I think it was written in the late 40s and then it was redone and I think he updated a little bit in the 50s. Um, I don't know if Weaver was Catholic, but he really talks like one. Like he really excoriates the idea that like for the last 500 years, modern men have tried to be their own priests and their own kings, and it doesn't work. That's essentially what he said. So ideas of consequences is a really, really good one. I haven't read it in a number of years. Um, and then it's not again, it's not specifically epistemological, but um, and I may be butchering this as French, but Surtelange uh is an uh Dominican called The Intellectual Life. Very, very good. Very, very good.

SPEAKER_04 2:16:32

So okay, great. Thank you. Anthony, I did have a question for you, but I think it's technically a sin, so I'm gonna pass on that. I'm glad you called that, Chris.

SPEAKER_19 2:16:44

Yep, thanks, guys. Take care, man. Thank you. All right, who we got next? We got James next. James, you're up, brother. What's happening, James? Hey, what's going on?

SPEAKER_08 2:16:53

Hi, curious. He's run out, he's uh showing us both of us up, Anthony.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:58

That's right, that's right. Like a good Italian, you know. But I I wanted to make just three quick points and ask a question. Um, the first is I think people should really look into the holy face devotion and and understand that, especially in these in these times. I think it has a special significance to it, and it has to do with reparation for sins against the first three commandments. And and that goes even to Italian, you know, having Subu on Sundays. Like that that is an Italian Catholic tradition, but it goes to honoring Sundays and the fact that nowadays people don't do that anymore.

SPEAKER_20 2:17:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:36

So that's one. Two, I think people should look into Saint Vincent Fair, and and that gives a lot of insight about the end times because in his canonization, he is identified as the angel of the apocalypse. So this gives us the roadmap, it gives us the insight as to what it'll look like at the end. And what why I find that interesting and relates to the third point in my question is that time during the great great uh great western schism, we have the the kind of defining feature of that is not knowing who the true Pope is, and there's confusion related to that. People are unclear for an extended period of time, 40 years, arguably 70 years. If you go by someone like William uh Thomas Walsh, the the Great Western Schism doesn't really fully conclude until the mid-1400s. So I think that also can can account for some of these some of the Catholic views about the conversion of Jews, for example, because St. Vincent actually converted arguably 200,000 Jews to the Catholic faith.

SPEAKER_08 2:18:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:46

Um so I would point to him, and I I think the third question or the third point is we there's so much in recent history, starting with Pius X. You go to La Salette, all the operations in in France, which again goes back to the Holy Faith devotion, that where Pius X in Pashendi, for example, he's specifically warning about the infiltration of the church as happening in 1907. Yeah, and so the thing that I that I find just it's crazy to me is that I don't know how you guys or or really anyone who professes to be Catholic doesn't see right now today as being in the middle of the great apostasy. I don't know how much Oh, I do.

SPEAKER_08 2:19:32

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:32

So you guys think we are, and then a lot.

SPEAKER_08 2:19:35

I think that's the most likely theory, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:37

I mean, I did miss part of I I heard the very beginning of this. I missed part of okay, so and I the the other sub point on that is there are saints, and and I could quote, I could read a couple quotes that specifically think that the antichrist is an anti-pope, and that goes to the temple. The that the word Vatican means prophecy. So my question to you is why don't you guys have the conversation with the most holy family monastery, the the Diamond Brothers? They never asked me to come on. Well, why don't you ask them to come on? Like the thing, it's always interesting. Yeah, you should. I mean, it's always interesting to me. People want to label it, they want to do whatever, but they don't want to get to the actual substance.

SPEAKER_19 2:20:23

And I found it point I've had conversations with with several set of accountists. I think look, I I I'll I'll even say like the hypothesis is possible.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:31

Like it's not, it's just is it not the most probable? I mean, I thought it was interesting. Josh said said that when his family went into the novus ordo, they didn't even recognize it, and that goes to the visibility point.

SPEAKER_08 2:20:44

They recognize that they were scandalized by the praxis, though. Yeah, well no, they they your point is granted. Your point is yeah, point is scandal in many places, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:53

Catholics from a hundred years ago wouldn't recognize no, I agree, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so how is it not the most probable? And and uh here's this direct question when the specific mark of the Antichrist is teaching like Nestorius did, that he who dissolves Christ is Antichrist, and that was the teaching, main heretical teaching of John Paul II.

SPEAKER_19 2:21:15

It's actually interesting because as soon as you sort of mention St. Vincent Pereira, I I kind of knew you were instead of a contest. I was having I was having conversations with uh Father Geckel today, and he was saying Saint Vincent Prayer, and then uh somebody else too. But uh yeah, dude, I'm not against talking to anybody. I was I would actually I think the Diamond Brothers are very entertaining, man.

SPEAKER_08 2:21:36

So I mean that was that was a very long question, but I appreciate the points you raise. Uh so I'll have to necessarily give a brief answer. Um I think some of what they've done is actually pretty substantive in like analyzing Protestantism, whatever. I actually think some of their eschatological work is very interesting. I would, and I've talked Anthony and I have talked about this in in in private as well. I think they have some very strange takes on a number of issues. You don't need to get into all that. There's a a really, really fundamental reason I I don't think the set of a contest thesis holds. Um, and it goes back to the thing I said about COVID, actually. Um, what cueed me into the apocalyptic nature of COVID was that um it technically wasn't worldwide, but basically almost worldwide, the public sacrifice of the mass was brought to an end. And this is something that the fathers say Antichrist will do for three and a half years. And so I think if the set of a contest position position is true, I think one would have to uh concede that um it's been much longer than three and a half years that Antichrist has essentially had a lack of the sacrifice of the mass, basically worldwide. So I think that's a huge problem for the set of a contest position. Now, um, but I also don't think look, I I disagree with their position. Um, Frank, you've you've been very respectful and charitable, which I really appreciate, by the way. My um, admittedly, I don't get into scuffles with them, uh, at least I try not to. My experience of SETI's has been um there's a lot of uh uh uh uh there's not very much charity, I'll put it that way. And now there's a lot of that. I mean, Jesus says, as as we get closer to the end, the love of many will grow cold. So that's everybody. There you see it all everywhere. So but it seems particularly pronounced. It it feels very orthobro-like sometimes to me. You've been you've been a wonderful exception, so that's great. And I know there are others out there too. Um, but um, you know, we didn't get to get into it too much, but studying the anti-church as a typology throughout scripture is very, very interesting. So there's actually, I think it's Ezekiel 8. I think this is one of the really interesting types where um Ezekiel is taken by an angel, I think, to the temple in Judah, and true worship has been maintained in Judah. Um, it's where the temple is, you know, uh, and the northern tribes have broken off from David, so they're not offering the sacrifice in the one tabernacle they have to go to. But but the angel brings them over. I'm paraphrasing, but but and he says, Look, there's a crack in the wall of the temple. And he says, Come and look through the crack into the into the inner part of the temple. And he says, There's all these priests of Israel, meaning the ten northern tribes, um, who are conducting like pagan and and horrible type rituals. So I think, but and yet it was still the temple, it was still in Jerusalem. And so I think um our Lord's promise will guarantee that the the temple of the Lord will will maintain itself as the temple until the very end. Um and and and we we don't perhaps we don't appreciate how badly infiltrated it actually can be without nonetheless ceasing to to be, if that makes sense. So it's a huge topic.

SPEAKER_19 2:24:44

So I know that's if you know the diamond brothers, tell them to reach out to me, man. I would definitely have a conversation with them. I think they're awesome. That would be interesting. How should they reach out to you? What email or something? I think some of them follow me on Twitter if they don't, but yeah, if they want to email me, it's uh Anthony at avoidingbabylon at avoidingbabylon.com. Tell them to shoot me an email. All right, all right, all right. I'll see you guys soon. Thank you, James. Appreciate it. You had to get at least one. I thought it was great.

SPEAKER_08 2:25:12

What's up?

SPEAKER_19 2:25:13

What's up, Jared?

SPEAKER_08 2:25:14

My godson. Oh, he's your godson.

SPEAKER_19 2:25:18

Oh, very cool, man.

SPEAKER_08 2:25:19

What's going on, brother? And he is he is bogging with the with the red beard and everything.

SPEAKER_10 2:25:24

Yeah, I haven't shaved in a little while. Yeah, I I I usually gotta work on the mustache, but hey, anyways, gotta tight the settings dressed much better than you freaking Nova Zordites.

SPEAKER_08 2:25:33

Oh, I knew this kid when he was a little pre-pubescent boy. He couldn't grow up.

SPEAKER_10 2:25:37

Oh, yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_08 2:25:38

Now now he's now he's great. Now he's hairy.

SPEAKER_10 2:25:40

I I was thinking, you know, uh my my pants are not um my pants aren't exactly uh formal right now, but you know, I could just slip on something, get on a suit jacket, and just know each other.

SPEAKER_08 2:25:53

How do you guys know each other? Yeah, ask how we know each other. You can tell.

Scripture, Translations, And Patristic Sources

SPEAKER_10 2:25:56

Oh, yeah, very, very, very briefly. I was going to spare you the biographical details so I could get around to the questions, but it's uh interesting enough. I think it might be worth it. So, very long story short, um, I don't remember when you first met my mother. It was sometime after 2011 when and that you were you had your relationship with Glenn Beck and uh another friend of a mutual friend of ours, and then you were Facebook friends with my mother. And at some point, while you were becoming Catholic, you're reading The Church Fathers as an evangelical Protestant, you were sharing things on Facebook that my mother would then see. And very long story short, I was LDS, um, and after I was 14, 15, I started becoming more of a reader. And I just I I asked, you know, Josh is very this, you know, the the question of questions, what was what how do you get all to the the the writings of the church before Constantine got a hold on the thing? And so he sends me a link to New Advent and I start reading viciously. Um Godson, Paul, Godson.

SPEAKER_08 2:27:01

Yes, sorry. They're like, Jared is Josh's son. I was like, no, no, no. He was immaculating.

SPEAKER_10 2:27:11

No, no, you're mostly German. Uh I'm mostly Swedish. Yeah. Yeah. So um, no, so long story short, I start reading the church fathers. My my patron saying is St. Irenaeus. Um, I'm like the team you Josh Charles. It's in a way. I except way less public. I do, I just do way, I just uh I do lots of reading, but I mostly keep to myself. Um that might change.

SPEAKER_08 2:27:34

But when his mom, when his mom came into the church, they came in at the same Easter, I think two or three years ago, when his mom had just been baptized and she sat next to me on the pew, I leaned over and I said, Welcome to the biggest, most dysfunctional family in the world to go to the the set ace point. You know, I stole that from you.

SPEAKER_19 2:27:51

I use it all the time.

SPEAKER_08 2:27:52

So, anyway, just because we got I I'm getting a little low on time. I know Anthony's getting less. What was the question? Yeah, we do.

SPEAKER_19 2:27:57

All right, so nobody else clicked the link. We got three guys left after Jerry.

SPEAKER_10 2:28:00

We're gonna get to them and then we're gonna wrap it up. I have two questions about virtue for perfectly sinless men like yourselves.

SPEAKER_20 2:28:09

Not true.

SPEAKER_10 2:28:10

Yeah, just joking. I'm just joking. No, um, so one's about patriotism. So Josh knows I sent him a text uh not long ago just asking about sort of when you feel sort of this patriotic apathy and you don't feel pride in sort of the the actions of your country. Um such as what you know Trump being the antichrist or whatnot. What is your reaction? This is for both of you. What what is your reaction in the midst of you know Josh has had a long time of you know both working for the government in in certain circumstances and writing about our hit or our nation's history? And for both of you, what how do you come to this? During with your Americ with your American qualities during a time like this, I've never felt at ease since becoming Catholic.

SPEAKER_19 2:29:17

Um well, it's about loving your I'm sorry, Josh, but I was just curious what the second question was too, just so we can.

SPEAKER_10 2:29:38

Um he reads uh James and John and their mother going to Christ asking for uh the high seats in heaven next to him, uh Irenaeus does not uh interpret that as a bad thing. Um he he but uh sort of like St. John Chrysostom, he just sort of just redirects it to suffering. But it's just in a call of humility, where is the place of that personal ambition? Those are sort of personal questions for me, but I I yeah, I wonder what how you feel to go through that.

SPEAKER_19 2:30:15

Um you you are you the second question you were asking, like how you how do you not be prideful in your ambition, basically? Right.

SPEAKER_10 2:30:22

It's uh there's I think that there's a tendency in the modern era to sort of just downplay yourself in your capacity, you to sort of not take not take the helm, to not uh you know, sort of be not being prideful, but also not being self-deprecating unnecessarily. Just getting it.

SPEAKER_19 2:30:48

I can give you two examples on this. Okay, so it in my job uh outside of this, uh, I started off in construction when I was young. When I went into that company, I wanted to be the the best guy at that company. Like I I learned how to run every piece of equipment, like I worked my way up to the top as quick as I could. My head got very big because I was 22 years old and I was basically running the company and I was in charge of guys that were 50, 55 years old. And what happened was we lost one of the contracts. So I went from being the most important guy at the company to just going back to being a laborer. And it was one of the most humiliating things I had to deal with because I went from being a big shot to just being a laborer there. And it was a it was something I think God allowed me to go through to humble me. For the next time we got the next contract, I didn't let it go to my head. Like I almost needed that lesson in humility, and I had to still go into work and actually use St. Teresa's little way because I had to go to work, a job I hated, and I had to do it all for God and still remain joyful and still remain happy because I didn't want to come home and be miserable for my family. So it's like I I do think there's an element of taking pride in your work that needs to be there. So, like when I when I when we got the next contract and I was the next guy to come up, I did need to take pride in my work, but I needed to prevent myself from getting too proud and thinking I'm better than everybody. So that I that that might be something that you're gonna wind up learning through experience. But the other thing is in this show, when I started this show, it's like um the there was the temptation to try to go viral. There was the temptation to try and go on with the biggest names and do this and that. And even through this, I've learned like just be content with what God gives you. Do the best you can at something and be content with what God gives you. Don't worry about how big the show is. If you're doing something good, God's gonna bless what you're doing. And it's, I mean, it's I I'm very fortunate in that God has taken care of me in that situation. But I think a lot of the question you're asking is gonna come through experience and kinds of kind of like ups and downs and stuff that you're gonna go through in your life.

Antichrist, The Temple, And Jewish Expectation

SPEAKER_08 2:33:05

It's a good answer. I just because we have a few more people to get to, I think I can answer them really pretty quickly, and we can, of course, talk offline more. Um the the humility thing is a really big topic. I I will simply say I've um the way God has worked with me often, I think it is to help me grow in humility, which I definitely we always need to grow. I know I need to grow. The the humility, the litany of humility is always a very humbling, no pun intended, but humbling prayer to read. But I mean our Lord talks about don't don't seat yourself at the highest point on the table, but be asked to come up. I think it's very powerful, and it's been very true in my life that virtually every virtually every big opportunity I've had, whether it was Glennbeck or Museum of the Bible or uh the White House or even Eternal Christian, the the founding patron who came to me and literally said, I want to support you doing something. It literally just kind of fell on my lap. And and I was prepared for it. I worked hard and prepped, and like God was making it. Making sure I was ready, essentially, at least ready enough to do it. But ultimately, when it happened, the connection was not made particularly by my own effort. It just plopped in my lap. So that's one point. Patriotism front, I think it's very simple. Love is not a feeling. And so it's an act of the will. And so patriotism is a species of the virtue of piety, which is uh the reverence we owe for those to whom we owe debts we can never repay. So God, country, parents are the three traditional ones. So um, yeah, I I understand. Emotionally, it's difficult to be um thrilled with where our country is. Um, you know, in the original sense of the United States, my country is California. And there's certainly a lot in California that is hard to be proud of and and excited about and emotionally, whatever, but it's still my patria, my country. And I I hope and act and pray for its well-being. So I I think if we sharply distinguish between how we emotionally feel about something and recognize love and piety, all virtue is an act of the will. I think that will be the starting point for clarifying it.

SPEAKER_10 2:35:04

Upon the rivers of Babylon.

SPEAKER_08 2:35:07

Yeah. Yeah, that's your blog, right?

SPEAKER_10 2:35:10

No, uh Strangers in a Strange Land. That's right. Check that out.

SPEAKER_19 2:35:14

Check out Jared Substack, Strangers in a Strange Land. Um, all right, thank you, Jared. See you, man. Take care.

SPEAKER_08 2:35:21

Hey, can Ryan Turner come on? I've always seen Ryan on X, but uh I want Ryan to come on too.

SPEAKER_19 2:35:26

I think since he shaved his beard, he's a little embarrassed. Oh, whatever. I'm just kidding. All right, uh, another faceless Patrick. What's up, Patrick?

SPEAKER_01 2:35:35

Hey, um I got some questions with regards to Saint Joseph. Um, I've been doing the uh consecration to St. Joseph a couple years now. Um my main one is about um the litany of the saints. Is Saint Joseph is Saint Michael greater than Saint Joseph, or is Saint Joseph greater than Saint Michael? And if St. Joseph is St. Joseph is greater than Michael, should his position in the litany of the saints be reflective of that?

SPEAKER_19 2:36:07

I can I don't know the answer to this. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_08 2:36:10

I don't either. I think traditionally St. Michael, I think Saint the devotion of Saint Joseph is is mostly recent, which doesn't mean it's bad. I think it's great. Uh we definitely need to appeal to Saint Joseph more, but I think traditionally Saint Michael was generally thought of as as higher. Um, but I'm not a hundred percent certain. So that's all I really know about it as well.

SPEAKER_17 2:36:30

Yeah, I couldn't give a definitive on that.

SPEAKER_01 2:36:32

All right, all right. Uh, and then I guess my second question with regards to Saint Joseph is if we uh obviously Christ is king and then um the Blessed Mother is the Queen of Heaven, uh, would it be uh unbecoming to try and get the title of like Prince Regent for Saint Joseph? And you can like pair that up with how Joseph the Patriarch was like a regent to Pharaoh during the uh Egyptian uh times.

SPEAKER_08 2:37:01

I'd have to think about it. Um, I wouldn't want to uh be too flippant with assigning an appropriate title to Saint Joseph, but or or not assigning uh an appropriate title.

SPEAKER_19 2:37:12

Like I don't I'm afraid to give an answer on that. Like he may he may even have a higher title than that.

SPEAKER_01 2:37:17

Yeah. Well, I I mean I don't I I'd be apprehensive to call him king in heaven. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_18 2:37:22

No, Christ is king, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:37:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 2:37:25

Yeah. Yeah, no, I I I'd have to think about it. I'd have to think about it.

SPEAKER_01 2:37:29

All right. Uh yeah, that's um, I mean, I yeah, that's pretty much it. Uh other than that, uh Anthony, I've been watching to you um a while now, and uh I'm coming for you, uh coming at you from the South Shore of Long Island. So get out of here! Oh dude, where do you go to Mass? Uh I'm at the uh Tri-Parish, St.

SPEAKER_19 2:37:47

Mary's. You should come to either St. Matthew's on a first or third Sunday, because that's close enough to you know. Okay, St. Matthew. It's in Dix Hills. First and third Sundays. Uh I'm usually at St. Matthew's and Dix Hills. So if you if you could get there, that that's that's where you'll catch me. The other thing I go to Glen Cove on the second, fourth, and fifth.

SPEAKER_01 2:38:06

Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_19 2:38:07

All right, uh hopefully I hopefully I bump into you, brother. Nice to meet you. All right, thanks. Uh New Yorker thing error. Get out of here. That was like, yeah. Uh JT, and then we got Andy after JT. Andy'll be the last one. What's up, JT?

SPEAKER_16 2:38:21

Hey, can you guys hear me?

SPEAKER_19 2:38:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_16 2:38:24

Wonderful. Uh, I'll just make this real quick since we're running a little long here, but I had two quick questions for you. How do you think the coming of the Antichrist is going to actually tie in with our Lady of Fatima's promises about the conversion of Russia, the complete restoration, the triumph of the Immaculate Heart. How does that all jive with this um end times? Because if I'm remembering correctly, Bellerman thought that the death of the Antichrist would immediately precede the final judgment. So it seems like there would have to be sort of that sort of seems like we definitely can't be in the time of the Antichrist, then, since not all these promises of our lady have come to fruition yet.

SPEAKER_19 2:39:17

Um Josh and I have actually talked about a little bit because I thought there would be a restoration of Peter before before the um like because I because you see Peter um uh at like the final act Christ does is restore Peter, you know, feed my lambs, feed my lambs. Christ, I love you. So he does that three times at the end, but Josh pointed out to me that that's after the resurrection. So I don't know, like does Josh, you you might want to expound on this a little bit.

SPEAKER_08 2:39:48

Yeah, well, my my first point would be um we always need to rank public revelation higher in terms of the weight we give to it. Um, I'm very devoted to Our Lady of Fatima, but um, but just let's keep that hierarchy in order. Um the second point is um I know a lot of Catholics, I I disagree with them, so I I think I'd agree more with your perspective that Fatima has not been fully worked out yet. Um yeah, I have to I'd have to study it a bit more on this. I I recall a vague mention of the kings of the East in the Apocalypse, I think, or possibly Daniel, I'm forgetting which one, coming against Antichrist. So if if I'm remembering that correctly, it perhaps that is part of what Russia does, that once they're converted to the Catholic faith. Um and uh I I tend to think that the triumph of the Immaculate Heart, um, I mean, Our Lady is so fundamentally connected to our Lord that the triumph of the Immaculate Heart is not not some separate sort of thing. It's it's it's his ultimate triumph, it's his returning in glory um to judge the living and the dead. So that's my personal opinion. Um again, my I tend to focus more on the fathers and scripture and and the theologians, but I think that would be a plausible way it could potentially all fit together. But but yeah, I I definitely think uh we have not we've very likely not gotten the full third secret, and I suspect it would shed a lot of light on where we are right now. Okay.

SPEAKER_16 2:41:14

Uh if you have time, could I ask to uh just the the second real quick question here?

SPEAKER_08 2:41:18

It's up to Anthony.

SPEAKER_16 2:41:21

Um uh do you put any stock, I guess, in this uh idea that there will be this great Catholic monarch who is going to be. No, I don't come. No, why not?

SPEAKER_08 2:41:33

Uh way too late. Um, way too late, not patristic in the in the in the patr I and I could be wrong. I I really do. I mean, I I do have I do feel I have a firmer opinion on this topic than others, but I could be wrong. Um, but I I see one great apostasy, and I think that I if this is not the great apostasy, Christendom basically doesn't exist anymore. I don't know what else is. Um and and I do think there are elements of the great monarch prophecy, whatever it is. I I've not seen it very well attested to. The first time I've seen it brought up is in Pseudo Methodius, which we don't even know who he was, and I think it was in the eight or eight hundreds or nine hundreds, somewhere in there. Doesn't mean it's necessarily false, but that's mostly where it comes from. I'm concerned it may actually lead to you know going with the wrong temporal ruler, you know, in the Times Ren. Um, so no, I I personally don't think I I see a lot of people bring this stuff up. I personally don't put much stock in it. I've seen nothing in in scripture about it, nothing in the fathers.

SPEAKER_19 2:42:32

Um, if somebody can maybe maybe I haven't read the best explanation, so I'm open to the Yeah, I just think it's I think that's private revelation, and I think uh it's I think it's I think even lost in translation, and there were scenes from you know long ago, and I don't know. I don't put much stock in the uh great Catholic monarch returning, but I don't know. What do I know?

SPEAKER_08 2:42:54

But it'd be nice to be proven wrong. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_19 2:42:57

I would love a good period of peace, and I would love for this to be like a a minor chastisement, and we get another 50 years before any of the stuff we're talking about happens.

SPEAKER_17 2:43:09

So hope that answers your question. All right, JT.

SPEAKER_19 2:43:13

Absolutely, thank you so much. All right, thanks, man. All right, Andy, you are the last one up, and I have to get to sleep before 4 a.m. wake up. What's happening?

SPEAKER_08 2:43:20

Let the record stay that Anthony is the one bringing this evening to an end.

SPEAKER_09 2:43:24

Understood. Understood. Are you guys able to hear me? Yes, okay, sweet. Um, so I have one question for you two. Um, it's an honor to meet meet you guys. Really appreciate it. And it is it, it's a time period that I'm becoming slightly more interested in, but I haven't read anything about yet in Christian history. But would you guys say, I assume I have some thoughts in my head, but I just want your guys' opinion. Would you guys say the Renaissance was good or bad for the Catholic Church spiritually?

SPEAKER_19 2:43:56

I think oh I'll I'll let Josh you want to go for it. I have my opinions on the Renaissance, especially the art of the Renaissance, I think was like a return to like Greek paganism and their art, like the whole idea of having like uh nudity and stuff. I think it was I think they were just mired and obsessing with Roman Romanism. And I I I think it was a a fall into decadence and uh debauchery. I think we look back on it with rose-colored eyes, but at the time I I'm not crazy about that period.

SPEAKER_08 2:44:28

Yeah, I mean, I I I'm not a scholar on it or anything, but from what I do know about it, I I would I would tend to agree with that. Um I think there were a lot of um occultic things that were going on as well. Um I think people were beginning to look at, I think they called it natural philosophy back then. We'd call it science now, as sort of a um a path to all knowledge, which is essentially what all occult societies believe, is that you know, Freemasonry is an exact knowledge of the secrets of nature, Kabbalism and occultism, what up, whatnot. Um, yeah, Erasmus is a mixed bag, although he stayed faithful to the church. I think some of it was good. You know, there was an attempt to recover the sources, an adfontes approach. Uh that's what Christian humanism was. Let's get back to the fathers, let's get back to the original languages of scripture. Um, but of course, some people took that in a very different direction. But um, you know, St. Vincent Farrell is mentioned, I if I'm remembering correctly, I think he was kind of in the Renaissance period or like right before it and whatnot. So so yeah, like many periods in in church history, a mixed bag, there were certainly some disturbing examples of papal behavior in the Renaissance period. So what what's uh what's the what's the source of your or what's the point of the question? I'm curious what what are you getting at? What have you concluded?

SPEAKER_09 2:45:47

I was just I was just curious about the general like vibe you guys had from it. I see it as I haven't read anything about it yet, but I see it kind of historically as like almost like an inflection point. Like, you know, things could have gone really well, really bad in both directions, and seems like we didn't get the worst Poswalcome, but maybe not the best. And I recently I recently bought a uh uh copy of Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks. So I'm interested in reading his stuff on philosophy and art, but I've read it. I have seen them at the British at the British uh library.

SPEAKER_08 2:46:20

I saw them in the original 2023, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 2:46:22

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_08 2:46:24

I mean some pages, not the whole thing. Okay, yeah. I saw I saw some of the original Leonardo da Vinci notebook. Yeah, it was incredible.

SPEAKER_09 2:46:30

So I plan on reading those soon, but it's it's a time period that I want to research more, but I haven't.

SPEAKER_19 2:46:35

The thing is, it's it's a really interesting time period to study. Like, I like I uh even though it's like debotched and stuff, like I love the Borgia period. Like, I don't know, it's an exciting time period to read about. I I just do I love like when I went to Rome and I got to see like all of the um who was it? Uh uh oh man, I forgot his name. But yeah, we we went to Rome and the tour guy was taking us around and she's uh man, I can't remember. My I'm so tired right now, I can't remember. But I was like, uh man, who's the who's Julius II? What's his what's his uh birth name? He comes after comes after Borgia, comes after Alexander the Sixth. Not sure. Uh I don't know either. Yeah, no, yeah, I don't know. I guess I'm I can hook him up really quick. That whole period, that whole time period is super interesting to me, just because the papacy is so debauched, but like they don't actually change any of the doctrine and Giuliano Della Rovera, yeah. Like, I just think yeah, I mean they're all trying to kill each other, it's pretty amazing. So even though like you it could be a debauched period, it's still a super interesting time to learn about.

SPEAKER_08 2:47:50

Well, and I also think it set up a lot of the foundations for what was really good in the Baroque period. You know, the Baroque really just developed further a lot of trends in Renaissance art, Renaissance music, polyphony. So there were there was a lot of good that came from it too. But you know, that's but I I don't claim to know enough about it to give a super definitive. There were definitely some disturbing things as well.

SPEAKER_19 2:48:11

Yeah, it's a fun, it's a fun time period to study, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_09 2:48:15

So that's the that's the general vibe I get from it too. And uh yeah, I don't know. I'm just excited to look into it in the future.

SPEAKER_18 2:48:21

So are you a convert or your cradle? I'm a cradle, cradle card.

SPEAKER_09 2:48:24

Good boy.

SPEAKER_19 2:48:25

Love love my cradle Catholics, man. All right, Andy. It was nice meeting you, brother.

SPEAKER_08 2:48:29

Converts, every single one of them.

SPEAKER_19 2:48:32

I love the cradles that watch the show. All right, man. It was nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, Andy. All right, me and Josh are gonna wrap this one up. Andrew, I know you tried popping at the last minute, but I called it already. We did have a couple of super chats. Um, so uh JD asks, bros, have you looked into the apparitions of Garabandal? I'm not sure on those. I am not uh I'm not uh big on the Garabandal whole like uh illumination of conscience thing. I mean, it's a whole show we could do. Josh, where do you differ if you differ at all with Scott Hahn's view on interpreting uh the book of Revelation, like Eschat Eschatological?

SPEAKER_08 2:49:06

I'm not sure how much we differ. I I think he tends to interpret it a bit more in a preterist fashion. I think the preterist fashion is part of a pro a proper interpretation of it, but not the total picture. But I maybe misreprim, I don't, I'm not super, super familiar with it. So yeah.

Set-Theory, Anti-Church, And Indefectibility

SPEAKER_19 2:49:20

Scott Scott Hahn's focuses on the supper of the lamb. It's a very liturgical book for him. He's describing like they're describing the mass, like the apocalypse is yeah, the the apocalypse is the mass, which you are going to the to the end of time at the mass, you know, like you're kind of being transported to it. Um, and then we got do dispensationalists who want to help build the third temple envision that what's in the easy 4048 will be built on the temple mount? Is that a Ezekiel?

SPEAKER_08 2:49:50

I think I think they do, because they many, many non-Catholic heretics, and I'm not mean that in a mean way, it's just they believe heretical things, um, they tend to interpret a lot of these things. Anthony used the word before carnally, which is often a common patristic uh critique of the Jews in the ancient church, that they were reading the kind of like the external, just merely literal view of the old church.

SPEAKER_17 2:50:16

They were seeing it spiritually, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 2:50:17

Yeah. And so the way that many fathers um interpret the temple in Ezekiel is as a type of the church. And so um when you read, you know, books like St. Bede's The Tabernacle, he has another one in the temple, um, Saint Jerome's Commentary on Ezekiel, ancient Christian writer said it's up there. Um, you know, they interpret these things very, very typologically. They do use uh, I hate to use the word because it sounds very negative and occultic kind of by default, but numerology that is part of a lot of patristic, not in an occult way, but you know, the four gospels, so four significant ten, the ten commandments, twelve, the you know, the set, you know. So for one example where all the patristic, um, every I've seen remarkable patristic unanimity is in interpreting the seven churches at the beginning of Apocalypse as seven representing the whole Catholic Church. So it was seven.

SPEAKER_19 2:51:08

Then you see the four gospels represent the four corners of the earth that the gospel has to go to, things like that. So yep, um and this was from a comment from before people were talking about our lady of good success, and he and they were saying Rome will become the seat of the Antichrist, but that that could also mean the city of Rome, it doesn't necessarily mean the Roman church.

SPEAKER_08 2:51:26

It you know, I have to be careful about that one because I think I I don't know all the whole document or history. Um, my understanding is that may have come from a part that was not approved or fully vetted that that so I don't I don't quote it, you know, in the sort of certain sense that many Catholics do.

SPEAKER_19 2:51:42

Josh, this was really fun, man. I think everybody enjoyed the calling segment. We'll uh we'll have to plan another one of these, maybe on a Friday night, so we could even get longer if we want to.

SPEAKER_08 2:51:50

We should do another one where we just do Collins. We just start immediately with Collins.

SPEAKER_19 2:51:53

And I mean, I'd like to do another one where we literally go through because I could have talked for four hours about the topic we started the show with, and then I could also do three hours of just calling. It it really is cool that people are uh excited to come on and just talk with us.

SPEAKER_08 2:52:07

No, it's really fun questions, and they were giving it. And have people ask the because I I think part of the reason why so many people are falling into you know, I think they raise some legitimate questions or whatever, but it uh, you know, pitfalls perhaps on the Jewish issue is nobody's having nobody's willing to have a serious discussion with it because they're so afraid of being accused of being an anti-Semite. Yeah. Look, I have Jewish friends in the state of Israel I love, I pray for them. Uh I have Middle Eastern friends, Arab friends, you know, whatever who I love and pray for. I mean, those so I've got people on both sides of this war who are Josh is in a group chat with Hamas. He's good. No, I did meet some members of Hamas back in the day for re we talked for four hours. So I have some very interesting experiences I'd love to share to maybe give some more human coloring. Gideon is just brilliant, so but I think being willing to have these conversations is very important to to prevent people from going down uh dark corners, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_19 2:53:02

I I never like focusing on like the the the worldwide Jewry stuff. I mean, it's important, I think it's definitely an important aspect, but I'd rather stick to scripture and just just seeing how the story plays out. That's it's way more interesting to me. I feel way more comfortable talking about it that way. And I think when guys start going down certain roads, they just look like they they look like the uh the caricature that they're looking to portray, and they could just call us conspiracy theorists and stuff. And I'd rather not go down that road. So um, Josh, thank you very much. I know you guys going, man. Thank you. This was fun. Yeah, this is very awesome. Everybody, uh, I'm doing a show tomorrow night with Mike Pantile. So if you're still watching, uh me and Mike will be on tomorrow. We're gonna discuss the whole Kyle situation and uh yeah, see where we're gonna go from there. Mike and I are gonna be doing a conference. We're gonna see if we can get some of the regulars on our show to come and attend. Hopefully, Josh will be one of those. I don't know, but we'll see how that works out. So uh we'll see you guys all tomorrow night. Thank you, Josh.