The Tradistan Wars Continue: The MadTrads Come for Avoiding Babylon

The Catholic world stands at a crossroads following Pope Leo's election, with traditional Catholics debating the best path forward. Should they maintain the same vocal criticism that characterized the Francis era, or adopt a more measured approach that might secure broader access to traditional liturgy? This tension has sparked heated debate within Catholic media circles.

Matt Gaspers joins the conversation, expressing his growing skepticism about Pope Leo. Despite the new pontiff's improved aesthetics and more dignified demeanor, Gaspers argues Leo appears substantively aligned with his predecessor on doctrinal matters. This observation leads to a profound discussion about the nature of the Church in our time - is she experiencing her Passion, much like Christ after His scourging?

The hosts examine Chris Jackson's recent article criticizing what he terms the "indult for quiet" strategy - the notion that traditional Catholics should soften their criticism in exchange for liturgical permissions. This debate reveals deeper divisions about effective resistance in an era where doctrinal confusion seems to reign, while the traditional Latin Mass faces increasing restrictions.

The conversation takes on apocalyptic dimensions as the hosts consider whether we're witnessing the culmination of Christian history. References to unfulfilled aspects of the Fatima message, particularly regarding Russia's conversion, suggest divine intervention may be necessary where human solutions fall short. Yet, amid these sobering reflections, a call for personal sanctity and faithful witness remains.

What emerges is a thoughtful exploration of how to preserve authentic Catholicism when the visible structures appear compromised. Is strategic prudence the wisest approach, or does it risk surrendering essential truths? The answers aren't simple, but the questions deserve our serious consideration as we navigate these unprecedented waters together.

Chapters

• 0:00 Discussing Catholic Media Strategy
• 8:10 Matt Gaspers Joins the Conversation
• 23:45 Chris Jackson's Article and Response
• 32:25 The Church in Its Passion
• 43:20 TradInc Debate and Catholic Media
• 54:40 Apocalyptic Times and Future Hope
• 1:00:55 Protestant Canonization Preview

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:31

I gotta say the taffy intro this week wasn't the greatest, and I didn't make him redo it. And we'll play it on locals.

SPEAKER_03: 0:39

He did he did tell us he was gonna be too busy today to actually so like I don't know, it was all right.

SPEAKER_06: 0:45

It just is that your hand, Anthony, pulling out the sword.

SPEAKER_02: 0:52

Um I woke up this morning to Matt DMing me. Uh well, so we had Matt booked already, right? Like, so like me and Matt had have been speaking for weeks about getting him on, and I texted him last night and I was like, I have no idea what we're talking about tomorrow. I was like, I'll I'll find something during the day and I'll text you the topic.

SPEAKER_03: 1:12

That was the last text you had sent me, too. You're like, I don't even know what we're gonna talk about tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16

And then I went to bed, and then I woke up this morning to uh like a group chat between me, Rob, and Matt. And Matt goes, Oh, look, they wrote an article about me. Chris Jackson wrote an article about you. So I started off by day like not reading the article, I was just like, they got the nerve to come. Really, boys, you guys think this is gonna go well for you? Like, that was my initial reaction. I'm like, You guys think you think this will go well for you? Okay, but then I read it and five minutes ago. I calmed down a bit. Well, yeah, but even just the I like I calmed down a bit, and I was like, you know, the um the the last episode we did, um, we had Wagner on, and he was probably like it was probably a in bad taste to have that conversation with Wagner on. Like Wagner's not a trad. It wasn't, it was we were supposed to talk about Lofton that night, and then Lofton made peace with Wagner behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_03: 2:14

Yeah, kind of killed us, kind of killed the topic for that.

SPEAKER_02: 2:17

Completely killed the topic, and I I had this stuff brewing in my mind, and I was like, maybe we'll just talk about that because I had this whole thing in my head that I was just mulling over just by watching like how Catholic media has been behaving since Leo got elected. By the way, welcome Matt Gaspers. It's been a while since we've seen you.

SPEAKER_06: 2:38

Thank you guys. Congrats, by the way, on getting to 50,000. Thank you. Speaking of speaking of Michael Lofton, you're only 50,000 away from having the the silver what YouTube plaque. We need that plaque, guys. Remember when he made a video about that, a rap video? That was pretty sweet. My question is, do they do will they send each of you one or do you have to share one? We'll probably have to share.

SPEAKER_03: 3:02

I think we'll have to we you probably have to buy.

SPEAKER_02: 3:04

I think you can buy an additional. Oh, so you could probably buy more than one, yeah. Um, so all right, so so we had Wag Wagner on, Wagner, Wagner, whatever you guys want to say. Wagner, Wagner, Wagner. Um, and he was probably the wrong person to have on for that conversation. Now, where my thought process was when we had that, and I was very tired, I'd been sick for a week, I hadn't slept. My thought process wasn't actually about like how to handle Leo. My thought process was more holy cow, I'm watching outfits that like exploded during COVID and had this adversarial relationship to Francis and their their media empires, but like like life's like news was a juggernaut during the pandemic, like they were huge. That my i i remember speaking with John Henry Weston, and he and when it when he first lost his YouTube channel during COVID, and he had to start a new one. He was like, I would put up a video of anything and it would get 100,000 views. He goes, Then we had to start that new channel, and it was like you could barely get any views on it. And now I'm watching what's happening, and I just see there's no appetite for that kind of media, and that was where my and I was just thinking about like these guys have to change up their content because you're not going to get views doing the bash the Pope thing, like there's just no appetite for it in in the content space. That was where I was going. Wasn't thinking so much like it's in like that's a bad strategy for Leo, but it kind of did go there, and I and I'm still not a hundred percent sure which side of that debate I fall on. I see both sides of the argument in okay, you still have to attack the source of it at Vatican II because that clearly was a revolutionary event, and then I see the other side of it where it's like chill out, let's get our Latin mass, let's reposition, let's let's you know come up with a game plan and a long-term strategy. So, Matt, where are you falling in on this on this conversation?

SPEAKER_06: 5:10

Well, on Monday of this week, Ryan Grant and I did like a three plus hour yeah, try watching that. It was it was long. It was way longer than I thought it would go. But I mean, we we dove pretty deep into the crux interview, and I'm kind of I'm basically running out of patience, I would say, with Pope Leo. I think it's becoming clearer by the day that he is in a certain sense a Francis the Second, uh better aesthetics, uh more polite and dignified, perhaps, but not really different substantially when it comes to doctrine. And I think those who are pretending otherwise are really being silly at this point. I mean, like you don't want one example I gave during our show, and I I greatly respect, I like Dr. Gavin Ashenden, but it's just gonna bring him up. Please stop with the with the Catholic Qon. It's so stupid. Just stop, just stop.

SPEAKER_01: 6:11

Gavin's English, so he's like, he's like, you have to read him in code, and you have to understand he's speaking in code to us. It's like, no, he's not. No, no, he's not. The guy stinks. Not trusting the plan at this point.

SPEAKER_06: 6:27

If you're trusting the plan at this point, you are you have lost the plot entirely, dude.

SPEAKER_02: 6:32

It's man, the the point I'm at now. He here's where I really fall on it. And I've been trying to think about like what is my position on this. Um, and what what do I think of of Leo and Rob? I sent a picture of uh oh, it didn't go through. I wonder why. Um, I I I've been mulling over this in my head, and I just see uh the church since the council as the church in its passion. And when you see Christ after he scourged at the pillar, and Pilate brings him before the crowd and he says, Eche homo, it's like behold the man. Like you you're looking at the messiah, but it doesn't look like it, it doesn't look like the messiah.

SPEAKER_06: 7:27

You're looking at God, you're looking at God, and when you how many people believe that he was God at that moment?

SPEAKER_02: 7:34

At that moment, many, and when I look at when I look at the church right now, that's what I see. It's very difficult to say this is the church. This is the church, this is the body of Christ, and it's it's it's a hard. I'm trying to figure out what my best approach is to bring young people to the church when the church is in that state, because to point out everything wrong with it, I don't know if that sends them down the Sede Road, if that sends them to Eastern Orthodoxy. I'm trying to figure out how to like bring people in and help them gain faith.

SPEAKER_06: 8:15

One other element that I think is very important for people to understand about that analogy, and this is stressed by John Salza and Robert Sisko in the introduction to their book, True or False Pope, which I highly recommend. Who did that? Who was the ultimate cause of our Lord? I forget there are different kinds of causes, like the instrumental cause, it was the old testament hierarchy who did that to him.

SPEAKER_02: 8:39

Oh, we're doing the Jew thing already. I thought we were gonna wait for locals. We're doing that now, all right. We can do it now.

SPEAKER_06: 8:47

Meaning that the the old you know, the the Israel of the Old Testament, the hierarchy of Israel did that to our Lord, so it that means that it's possible for the New Testament hierarchy to do the same thing to his mystical body.

SPEAKER_02: 9:02

Typologically, that's exactly how I see it. I see it as and and you're going to have the old testament, the people of the old testament, mixed in with that, and you're gonna see there's going to be a Judas element, there's going to be the I mean, if you think that the the high priest and the Sanhedrin prefigure the Pope and the Cardinals, you will see elements of that typology play out in the end. Um, but it is still the church, and I still do think Leo is a valid pope. I think he is I think he is the embodiment uh of uh the council. Like I don't think Leo, I don't think Francis was. I think Francis was like way out there, he was a nut. And I think Leo is more the embodiment of the council, which is this timid Catholicism, unsure of itself, afraid to preach the truth boldly. And it's embodied in Leo the same way Peter denies Christ. Not that he ever says he's not the Messiah, he just denies knowing him. And it and there's elements of seeing that in the in the hierarchy since the council, where they're almost like ashamed to, you know, and I've I've gotten I've gotten heat from people for saying this before, but uh it's the only way I can make sense of it, I think something because we all can see like the Catholicism that was taught before the council is very different than the Catholicism that is taught now. Something revolutionary happened at that council and in the the following decades, right? Like the we're all seeing it, and I think I under under Francis, I took the position where it was like, all right, I'm gonna give leeway to people who fall on different sides of the argument here on where they end up. Like, okay, maybe Francis is an anti-pope, maybe Benedict didn't resign, maybe you know, I I allowed for people to ponder that and come to a different conclusion than myself. And what I'm seeing under Leo is which is kind of funny because there's a whole group of new guys who are calling calling some guys trad inc, which it's like well, they won't they won't actually name who they meet. That's kind of the funny thing. Yeah, guys, man up, come on, say names, let's go. We like a little beef. Like Catholic Esquire. What level of heresy does Leo have to teach before anyone can conclude he cannot possibly be the Pope? How bad does the heresy have to get?

SPEAKER_03: 11:26

Well, okay, so I was JP2 Pope then.

SPEAKER_06: 11:29

My like I ask Bellerman, Catholic Esquire. Bellerman says warnings are necessary per Titus chapter three, verses 10 to 11.

SPEAKER_02: 11:37

So so what I'll say is um, so Chris Jackson wrote this article, right? I love Chris Jackson's writings, like I really do. Catholic Esquire. I watch every one of his videos, like I actually enjoy them all. I'm still just not settled on where I come down on it, but this just is how I this is I want this is where I'm making sense of it right now.

SPEAKER_06: 12:05

See Steven is in the chat as well. Hello, Steven. Good to see you. He says, Yes, we have Matt. So who do you mean? Say in the chat who do you mean when you say they mean Dr.

SPEAKER_02: 12:15

Marshall, Dr. Kwasnevsky, Michael Matt are the three musketeers of Trad Inc.

SPEAKER_06: 12:20

That's that's their is that does it stop there? Who else are you guys talking about?

SPEAKER_03: 12:25

I prefer three amigos personally, but um I okay.

SPEAKER_02: 12:30

So look, here what I was trying to get at in that last episode, though, wasn't that um you guys shouldn't continue criticizing. I I like you guys are the new guys trying to like start a platform, and and for for guys like me and Rob and even Matt, we have day jobs. This is kind of like a side gig, right? So for me, it kind of I it doesn't matter. It's for me. Like me and Rob just are having fun on a podcast talking about this stuff. We like to discuss what's going on in the Catholic world, but for an outfit like Life Site, they have to make a decision like where do we move forward with our content? Because what position you take on this can determine whether your outfit survives or not. Um, I I laughed at Stephen Cox when he said originally that um Michael Matt and Marshall maybe got orders from uh Cardinal Burke. And then the more I thought about that, I was like, maybe maybe I mean it's it I don't know because I know Michael Matt has a good relationship with Cardinal Burke, like it is possible, it's not like completely out of the realm of possibility. I'm sure you don't think it's I think it's unlikely, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.

SPEAKER_03: 13:36

Yeah, I it's not like they got a call on the backbone television.

SPEAKER_06: 13:40

I have a sincere question for all in relation to all the Trad Inc stuff. If if that's Trad Inc. seriously, isn't there a said ink also? Nova Sordo Watch, the WM review. I mean, they they use the similar talking points. Um Steven seems to be very sympathetic to seducantism, perhaps even I think all three seems guys.

SPEAKER_02: 14:05

I mean, I when I read when I read Chris Jackson, and look, I here's the thing like even I don't want to get certain people who still have um valid orders in their diocese in trouble, but like very good friends, priests that I know fall in that category as well. They don't think Leo is a valid pope. Um I I would I mean from listening to Father Isaac, I would I would imagine he holds that position too. I don't know, he hasn't like I he hasn't flat out said it, but like these are all guys I love and respect and I listen to and pay attention to what they're saying and take their arguments into account. I also do listen to what Michael Matt is saying, and and I'm and I'm watching Taylor's position, and I'm seeing uh like they're trying to develop a strategy for the long term, and uh these guys are saying like the the indult position is stupid, but I'm also looking at I'm watching the older guys have absolutely no ability to connect to the younger generation, like it's just they're just incapable of it. There's some there's something missing there. So you you guys are gonna continue speaking to the Gen X crowd and and the boomer crowd, but the younger generation isn't connecting with with that. So I don't know, I don't know. I mean, I'm I'm just kind of here watching all this go down, and um I'm not I'm not trying I'm not trying to like I'm not trying to play all sides. I genuinely have not figured out like the correct answer to this. I just know what happened at the councils is insane. Everything that's happened since then seems completely bonkers, but I also know or I also believe that Christ made a promise that the gates of hell would not prevail, and I think that it will look like the gates of hell prevailed, and then at the last minute, God's going to do something incredible that will shock us all.

SPEAKER_06: 16:02

I think the main difference between myself and those who are using the the trad ink pejorative is that I even if I disagree, like I don't agree with everything Michael Matt says. He's a friend of mine. Yeah, I don't even necessarily agree with everything uh Taylor Marshall says, another friend of mine, but I'm not gonna go on the attack against them publicly. That's just I don't that's in very bad taste.

SPEAKER_02: 16:26

It's in very bad taste, but I do remember like when you're coming up and you're trying to make a name for yourself, you go, you know, you punch up, right? And I think that's what those guys are doing. They're punching up, like in a in a way, those guys have controlled the conversation for a very long time, right?

SPEAKER_06: 16:40

Like, like and frankly, rightfully so. Michael Matt has been in this fight longer than some of these people have even been alive.

SPEAKER_03: 16:48

Yeah, he's been doing this since you're dying.

SPEAKER_06: 16:50

Settled down his his family's been doing it for generations, so get you know, he deserves some respect, whether you agree completely with him or not. That that deserves some respect, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 17:02

And what'll happen, and this is what I was kind of getting at last episode, also, is you guys will get some traction by punching up and call and doing the trading thing, but you're gonna be you're gonna be like put into a corner and you're never going to escape that corner, you're just not. It's I mean, it's just gonna be you're gonna pigeonhole yourself into a very specific situation, and you're gonna find yourself having very few people who want to collaborate with you because of that, and you're going to be like persona non grata for anybody who might actually enjoy you, but it has a relationship with those guys, too.

SPEAKER_03: 17:38

Because I mean, similar to how relationship with them, similar to how so-called Trad Inc. was was kind of uh put in a corner over the you know, over the the Francis pontificate. Like it literally took for a Pope to die for Dr. K to get on Matt Fred, yeah. You know, it like in they're having a the that group or whatever you want to call it is having a hard time breaking out of the I don't know what you want to call it, the the not Pope Splainer, the Pope complainer, I guess. I think you don't need like like so yeah, you gotta yeah, not I don't want to say you gotta be careful doing that because you should stick to whatever principles you know you do hold, but uh that well you gotta be aware of the consequences.

SPEAKER_02: 18:23

That's that's that's what I'm that's what I'm getting at, right? So and and I do think those guys are paying attention to these to the to the new guys because I I see they're they're reacting without saying their names, also right now. Now the I don't mind saying you guys' names because I nobody you mind putting them in a thumbnail. Like I don't mind saying people's names because I don't care. I actually like I want to see everybody succeed at this thing, and I know how difficult it is to like make a name for you. Like it was hard getting our channel to have any kind of like noticeability and stuff. So I don't like I'm always gonna try and bring up the new guys. Um, not that you guys are younger than me or anything, it's just the guys new in the content arena. Now I know Stephen Cox has been doing this for 15 years, but he's now on his own and he's you know doing a channel on his own. Catholic Esquire. I just came across recently, like in the past few months. Um, and then uh Chris Jackson I came across uh with the Baron interview. That was the first time I read Chris Jackson. It was the band we read his substance. That was a very good, very good article, really well right, like a really good writer, yeah. Right? Like it's just I I'm not trying to do the ecumenism thing here, right? Like I'm just uh I don't know, man. I I'm I'm trying to figure out like the way forward under Leo. I don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_06: 19:47

Who would have thought Anthony would be the voice of moderation?

SPEAKER_03: 19:50

Well said he did ever since he was in high school, starting fights so he can moderate him.

SPEAKER_02: 19:55

I'm I'm sure Chris has I'm sure Chris has been around for a long time, but he hasn't come across my radar, right? So that was the first time Chris came across my radar.

SPEAKER_06: 20:03

Let me just be clear. I still consider Stephen Cox a friend. I still consider Chris Jackson a friend. They're both very good writers, jerk, good journalists. Um, so it's not personal, I just don't agree with the the crusade against trading.

SPEAKER_02: 20:18

Yeah, yeah. Well, Chris Jackson used to write for the remnant, and I'm sure the remnant took all his stuff down since he's been on the Trad Inc. Crusade, I would I would imagine.

SPEAKER_06: 20:26

I mean, I don't know, but that actually came up recently that um a Nova Sordo watch Mario Dirksen posted about that, and um I checked, tried to find Chris's old articles. They do appear to have been scrubbed. Um yeah, it is what it is. I mean, I don't know, and I don't necessarily agree with that decision either, but it is what it is. But it's a it's I mean it's a pretty obvious consequence to the I would assume I would assume that there is a very direct cause and effect relationship between the Trading Crusade and his articles no longer being accessible, yes.

SPEAKER_02: 21:02

Yeah, the the thing is I do I do like I I do want to have this conversation about the like the proper way forward in this because something needs to there something needs to be done. There needs to be some kind of a plan for opposing some of this crazy stuff we're seeing in the church. I mean, you have it's kind of odd that you finally actually had six bishops come out and condemn Supic for what he's doing with this this award on seven now, seven, seven bishops now come at coming out against Supic, but I don't think that would have happened under France on under Francis. I'm not saying that means Leo is whatever, it's just I I just think there's a different temperature in the room under Leo, and he does seem like he kind of wants to unify things in some way, whatever that means. But I also know, like I I was making fun of the Charlie Kirk memorial, and then people were like, Yeah, but dude, look at Nova's look at the Nova Sordo, and it's like the yeah, like the Nova Sordo is just as silly.

SPEAKER_06: 22:07

Yeah, I mean, it's basically that what they did there was more or less I've seen it many times a Steubenville conference or any other kind of retreat, like diocesan style retreat. It's pretty much what happens. Just substitute um the artists that were there. I forget some. I mean, and I enjoy some of that music. I don't think it's bad music. I mean, I listen to it when I'm driving for work and stuff sometimes. Um, I don't obviously it's not appropriate for well, it kind of takes me back to my my heyday and my rock nostalgia. Yeah, nostalgic. Um, what was I gonna say? It's obviously not appropriate for Holy Mass or the liturgy. That doesn't mean that it's evil either, though. I mean, and those people, if that's all they know and they are truly sincerely worshiping God. I mean, several of them, several of the artists have come out and said, Man, that was a really powerful experience, and who knows if it was just an emotional high. I don't know, but hopefully some people are actually going to convert as a result of this.

SPEAKER_02: 23:09

Convert to what, though, is I think their position, right? Convert to what? Like you you convert, and like there are there are versions of Catholicism that are presented to people that they convert to that aren't truly Catholic, right? Like some of it's such silliness that you just you're like, man, this is this is this is so foreign and alien to what was taught to the generations before that you have to say, like, is this Catholic at this point? You know, so why don't we go through Chris's article, Rob? You want to bring it up?

SPEAKER_03: 23:46

Yeah, let me find it here.

SPEAKER_02: 23:47

It's in the it's in the thread between Matt and and uh the between the three of us. Um, and yeah, I did I did see uh how do you pronounce his name? Vadi Basham? Basham.

SPEAKER_03: 23:57

Who is that?

SPEAKER_02: 23:58

Vadi Bocam, I don't know. He's a Protestant minister that everybody's saying went straight to heaven. Um, it after we discussed this article, I do want to talk about the Protestant canonization of Charlie Kirk, like because some of the stuff that they're doing is so Catholic and they're and it's insane.

SPEAKER_06: 24:16

Yeah, I saw your post about that. They want to make some kind of commemorative coin of him or something, and you were like razzing them about their idolatry or something.

SPEAKER_02: 24:23

It's but it's like they're so blind to what they're doing that they man, we'll do it after because I that deserves its own segment.

SPEAKER_03: 24:32

Like I mean, they're doing they're just doing what American Protestants have always done.

SPEAKER_02: 24:38

Yes, get rid of the heroes of the Catholic faith and replace them with uh secular heroes, like that's what they've always done. But like kid like do the same exact thing, but say it's not it's different when they do it, basically. But um, we will get to super chats also, but uh all right, you got the article? Uh so from Chris Jackson, in a recent Avoiding Babylon episode entitled Will Pope Leo Kill the Trad movement, the hosts argued that traditional Catholics should move on from constant criticism of Leo. Their counsel was clear, turn down the outrage machine of the Francis years, lower your voice, receive the supposed olive branch, and trust that quiet deference might secure broader access to the Latin.

SPEAKER_03: 25:18

I don't think we argued that at all, though.

SPEAKER_02: 25:20

I I I did well, kind of not. I mean, my my my broader point was more about like the Catholic media stuff, but I did kind of say this. Um, and uh they even warned that Rome watches Anglo-Catholic media, implying that too much agitation could cost families their sacraments. And I did say that. I'm like, I think that's a possibility, yeah. I I still do think that, so like too much agitation from I mean, not from guys like us, we're too small, but if Marshall and and Michael Matt are continuing the same thing as they did under Francis, I do think it would be very I mean we we've we've seen more more than enough examples of vindictive bishops who if they have a especially if they have a big influencer in their diocese.

SPEAKER_03: 26:07

Uh you can't tell me the bishop of Charlotte wouldn't, yeah. I mean, he's already done it, obviously, but someone like that is vindictive enough to kill a TLM because of uh a YouTube video. You can't tell me that's not necessarily the case. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02: 26:21

So it was in effect a manifesto for silence, silence in exchange for stability. Silence is a new strategy for survival. No, it wasn't. Um, but they framed it. But what they framed as prudence is in reality a trap. It recasts vigilance as disloyalty and asked parents to buy liturgical crumbs at the cost of doctrinal surrender. That is not mercy, it's a devil's bargain designed to guarantee 20 years of muzzled preaching while the revolution cements itself as official Catholicism. So I would argue that what it actually is is allows parents to have the traditional liturgy and then form their children themselves. Yeah. Like it's not, it's not that. Like you're going to oh, you're you it's nothing, and you guys aren't proposing a better plan. Like your your your approach is not doing anything.

SPEAKER_06: 27:12

But it can I give you some insight as to why they think the way that they do, at least I think in in Steven's case, I don't know about the others, but I mean, I'm pretty sure I remember him saying publicly, uh, you know, you don't there's no you have no need of being in commute any kind of communion with your local bishop. I mean, I think the presumption is that every diocesan bishop is a heretic, basically, and you don't, you know, so you go to the SSPX, you don't need an approved traditional Latin mass, but the problem is that there aren't the SSPX isn't everywhere, you know. Yeah, and or also they I think they would uh they would say go to a said chapel, and that has a whole other set of problems with it because and they're not everywhere either. Well, yeah, practically speaking, first of all, but you know, more spiritually speaking, like that's my main concern with this new crusade against Trad Inc. I think it's really about trying to legitimize 1958 set of contism. I know obviously I know that's the case with the WM review.

SPEAKER_02: 28:16

Uh yeah, I'm not buying that thesis either. Like, I'm sorry, like I do like you guys, and I do um I do think you guys make a lot of good points. I'm not buying the 1958 SETA thesis, it's just not convincing to me. It's too much um it's too much like theory, like it's a good theory, but too much theory, and there's no proof to it, and there's no solutions offered. There's no solution to it, and then if you start getting and I try talking to um Mario and Kevin about this, like if if your position is that the novus ordo sacraments and the novus ordo orders are invalid, like the church is done.

SPEAKER_06: 28:57

Exactly, and that is part and part that's what people need to understand. That is part and parcel with 1958 Cedivicantism. A lot of people don't realize that Cedivicantists hold that there are no legitimate diocesan bishops anywhere in the world. Anyone ordained after the council is invalid, uh the new rites are completely invalid, there is no more visible church. That is the logical end of their system.

SPEAKER_02: 29:22

And and and Gregory, it's not oh no evil sedes. Like, I have conversations with you guys, I just like I just don't buy the theory. I'm sorry. Like it's there's a bit of Gnosticism in it. It just is. It's like, oh, I know this secret thing happened, and that the Pope was a Freemason and that invalidated the papacy. It's like, no, like I don't I don't I don't buy it. I'm sorry. Maybe you do, and I'm not judging you for it. I I think there's evidence for it. I just it's not enough proof for me. Um so um the claim on the table, thesis, stop naming error. And Leo will be freer or more inclined to expand the old right. Implied cost, criticism endangers permissions, silence purchases them. It's not like you're saying I'm implying that, but I'm not. I'm just saying slow down for a little bit and let's see where this goes before you go into full attack mode. It's more just a bit of it is a bit of prudence in this area. Um, goals spare families from driving four hours for a TLM baptism right, uh, for traditional right baptism and rotating chapels by strategic deference for the length of Leo's reign. This is what they nice. The thing is, like I know most of like the online sets that we deal with don't go. So, in other words, set ink you're talking about, yeah. SETA ink, and it's really there's like a handful of them online, they don't go to mass, like, and I'm not like I've I've left the sacraments under Francis because I was what do you mean they don't go to mass because they have nowhere to go, right? So they're like, Well, if there was a valid mass, I would go, but there's no valid mass, so they don't go. I know what happened to my life when I left the and that was leaving the Novus Ordo.

SPEAKER_06: 31:12

So well, there was one famous said, I don't know if you've heard of him, Jerry Metatics, I think is how uh forgive me if I mispronounce his name. He was a Protestant minister, as I recall, converted to Catholicism, got into traditionalism, but then went way off the rails into set of contas, eventually became a home aloner. Like he didn't think anywhere, he couldn't go anywhere. Nowhere was valid, nowhere was legitimate. So he would just read from the missile at home. That's my under that's my understanding. That's so sad.

SPEAKER_02: 31:40

Yeah, I don't I I I don't I I just know what happened to me in my life, so I can only go by experience. I don't know. I mean, maybe that maybe it's anecdotal, but it's it's my experience when I left the sacraments. What happened, and I'm not doing that again.

SPEAKER_06: 31:57

And not even the SS, like other a lot of people seem to be under the impression that um the SSPX holds that the new rights of ordination are invalid. That is absolutely false. The SSPX, you can search on online Google SSPX New Rite Ordination Consecration. They hold that both the new right of priestly ordination and episcopal consecration are both valid. So there, these people are going even way beyond what Archbishop Lefebvre and the society goes.

SPEAKER_02: 32:29

Yeah, it's uh um so uh let's see if there's anything else worth the trap of indult for quiet. The bait is obvious. Speak deferentially, keep a low profile, and a new indult will appear, perhaps devolved to bishops, perhaps dressed in unity, but the unwritten price is silence about the revolution. I don't think we need to be silent about the revolution. I think we still should be talking about the catastrophic changes since the council. I think that we shouldn't be circular firing, calling this one trad ink, calling them cowards for not speaking the truth. I think it's just a difference of how we go about this. I don't think anybody is saying ignore the revolution. Um uh even without a formal oath, the leash will be enforced by fear. The moment a priest preaches against fiducias, fiducia, amora, synodality, ecumenism, etc., permissions can be revoked. As Leo said, such things are polarizing and the use and use the liturgy as a political tool. In doing so, Leo has reduced the traditional Catholic faith and its defense to a mere foreign ideology. Okay, so look, the other thing is under traditionis, there were tons of bishops who just chose to ignore traditionus, they just chose to ignore it, and then Rome interfered and like forced them to enact it, right? Now if you get if you get releases on Traditionis, or if it gets, I mean, I don't think it will, but if it totally gets you know scrapped and everybody gets their mass back, mass back, and then the bishops allow it, like then I don't think the podcast arena is such a big deal because most of these parishes are stable on the ground, and most bishops didn't want to cause any trouble with these parishes, like for the for the most part, they didn't. They were kind of put in a position, and then the the problem is Leo is putting people into like as bishops in these dioceses that are now like what which which was it Garcia on his way out of California, just just tossed four TLMs, I think. Um in Monterey. In Monterey, yeah, like on his way out, he's like four days from going into Austin, and on his way out, he's like, Yep, we're gonna squash your TLM before I go. Like these these men are being elevated to positions within the within the episcopate. So I don't I don't know. I'm like I don't know. I don't know what I'm not I'm not trying to be some some uh like trad icon that tells everybody what to do.

SPEAKER_06: 35:05

I'm just kind of surveying the Catholic, you have publicly said you want to rule Tradistan.

SPEAKER_01: 35:14

You did I knew I'm gonna rule Tradistan one day.

SPEAKER_02: 35:22

I will rule Tradistan. Oh, that is funny. Oh, don't call me out on my uh that's why he wants to keep it together.

SPEAKER_03: 35:32

Keep it together and it breaks apart.

SPEAKER_06: 35:33

He's got little yeah, you're not gonna have a kingdom to rule pretty soon.

SPEAKER_02: 35:36

Oh man, we gotta keep it together, guys. Come on, I don't want to be king of the ashes.

SPEAKER_03: 35:43

I don't want to roll rule over a dust heap. Come on, um, you'd be like uh Romulus Augustus and be just the last emperor of the uh the Roman Empire, basically. Oh man.

SPEAKER_02: 35:59

I don't know, I don't know what the answer is, but all right, the plea is always framed as compassion, stay quiet for the sake of parents and children, but at best it offers an illusory of safe, an illusion of safety, a state room on the Titanic floating for now while the ship still sinks. But the ship here's my all right, here's the thing you can take it off screen. Like, this ship is sinking, like I don't know what to tell you guys, and nothing we do is going to change that. Like, I am at a point where I think things are so apocalyptic. I think we are at the end of the story. I don't, I know you guys hate when I blackpill, Rob hates when I blackpill. I don't see how we're not at the end of the story, and I do think something is going to happen. I see Israel having you know the Jewish people being called back to Israel and having their tentacles throughout the world the way they are, being a transnational nation the way they are. I don't see how this all isn't leading to the end of the story. I know what the story of Christianity is, I understand the enmity between the older brother and the younger brother, I understand the way stories work, and we are coming to the end of the story. So I I don't know. I don't I don't think anything we do is going to change that. There's no amount of complaining on Substack that is going to change the position that is happening in the church. I don't, I just isn't. So, yes, I do think we have to figure out a way to just find an enclave to be Catholic and live a Catholic life and raise our children Catholic in the meantime while we're waiting for something.

SPEAKER_03: 37:31

All I ask is if the rapture happens, that it you get taken.

SPEAKER_02: 37:36

Oh yeah, you'll be left behind, my friend. In peace and quiet, all the mean things you say about people on this site.

SPEAKER_06: 37:43

Well, I think what we're going to see in one form or another, we're going to see the fulfillment of the third secret of Fatima. We haven't seen that yet. There's going to be the reign of there's going to be the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary before the second coming of Christ. I think that's very well established. And 2029 is a big year because that's seems to be the hundred-year deadline for doing the actual consecration of Russia, which has yet to be done correctly. Um and our Lord seemed to indicate in a in a locution to Sister Lucia in 1931, he made a comparison between you know his instructions to St. Margaret Mary Alcock regarding the consecration of France, which was in 1689, and almost to the day, a hundred years later, it hadn't been done right, and the ball started rolling towards the French, you know, the beginnings of the French Revolution. So he said to Sister Lucia, you know, if if my min tell my minister, I'm paraphrasing a little bit, if my ministers, if they follow the example of the king of France, they will follow him into misfortune, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 38:49

So yeah, and almost a hundred years to the day it happened back then, right?

SPEAKER_06: 38:54

Right, when when when the king finally does consecrate, and it was like too late, and it's going to be a similar situation in in in our somebody says in the chat, uh Gaspers doesn't think Francis' consecration was legit, even though Bishop Schneider does. Clearly, it wasn't. And I do, I I think Bishop Schneider is probably a living saint. He probably will be, you know, one day possibly canonized. I think he's a very holy man. I do respectfully disagree with him on that because we haven't seen the promised fruit of the consecration. Our lady made it very clear. She says, In the end, my immaculate heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and it shall be converted, and the and a period of peace will be granted to the world. What does conversion mean? It doesn't mean the fall of communism. Sister Lucia made that very clear to a priest named Father Joaquin Alonso, who was the Fatima official Vatova archivist for many years, had many private conversations with her. It doesn't even mean a return to the practice of Russian Orthodoxy, which is schismatic. It means a return of Russia to the Catholic faith. It doesn't mean they have to become Roman Catholic. They'll probably have some sort of a Russian, there's already actually a Russian Catholic Church over there, an Eastern Rite Church, but they do have to be in communion with Rome. That is what the conversion of Russia means.

SPEAKER_02: 40:28

But doesn't that's a little too spicy?

SPEAKER_01: 40:33

What? No, come on, what the Catholic bishops have to become Catholic before Russia becomes Catholic.

SPEAKER_06: 40:41

Well, that's a fair point. That's a fair point. But I personally I think that that the con the actual real consecration is going to unopen the floodgates of grace for that to happen.

SPEAKER_02: 40:52

Yeah. See, yeah, I I'm just look, I know the story of Christianity, and I know we are building up to something so apocalyptic right now. Like the council itself was an apocalyptic moment. Paul the sixth laying down his papal tiara is so symbolic of the church laying down her authority. Doesn't mean that her sovereignty passes to another people, but she lays down her authority. The Pope is the catacomb, essentially. He's the last he's the pontifex maximus. Like he is the Roman Emperor laying down his crown and his authority. And there's something to that happening that is related to the apocalypse where a star falls from heaven and the key, the key to the bottomless pit is opened. Like who has the key? It's the Pope. So the key to the bottomless pit is open and the earth is flooded with demons, and that time period is what we're living in right now.

SPEAKER_03: 41:52

I I can't do you know who are gonna be the most insufferable converts, though. It's gonna be all the Rokour people when the when the conversion happens telling us about our faith.

SPEAKER_02: 42:04

The uh there's going to be look, I mean, I Trump ran on, and and that's the other thing. I see a lot of these guys are like so pro-MAGA, and I'm just like, do you guys really not see uh what is going on with politics right now? There is no Republican and Democrat. It's not, it's all one entity. Everything we're watching right now, you're seeing Republicans come out and say the same thing leftists did about censorship, about um like all of this stuff. It's still the deep state running everything. Trump has not gutted the deep state, none of it. It's all the same apparatus working the same way. It just has a different person in. You have Trump in, and that's getting MAGA to go along with a lot of this stuff. Like, I voted for Trump. I wanted Trump to be the guy they think he is, he's just not. Like he just it it the people have such a a false hope in political means it's not happening, like like we're not getting out of this through politics. This whole thing is leading up to something, and you're going to see the world at war soon. Like, I don't care. You're seeing the Russia war escalate, you're just is the country is falling apart. You look at like we're always talking about a two-state solution in Israel. And if you really think about why they're even having that conversation, is because if there was a one-state solution in Israel, that would mean Israel would have to make the Gaza Strip all citizens and they would have equal voting rights, and they would vote the Israel, the Jews out of Israel. And that's what they did in our country. They opened the floodgates to let the Mohammedans in so that the Mohammedans would then elect their own people, and that's what you see happening in Minnesota, right? You see Minnesota, you're seeing them elect their own mayors. That's what's happening throughout the world. They've managed to convince former Christendom to open the gates of their country to the Mohammedans, and they're all coming in, and you're going to you're going to see things pop off soon. I'm I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_06: 44:14

I'm seeing another reason why I think we need Russia to convert and become an ally of the Catholic Church is to, and that's also like St. John Bosco talks about that in one of his visions. I remember Father Nicholas Gruner mentioning that in one of his conference talks many years ago about salvation coming uh from the north, uh evil coming up from the like the Mohammedans coming up into Europe from the south, and Russia after the conversion of Russia, them being there in Europe to defeat the Mohammedans, many of whom will actually embrace the Catholic faith.

SPEAKER_02: 44:47

Yeah, like like salvation will come from the East again.

SPEAKER_06: 44:51

Exactly. Yeah, that's the and that's the phrase that uh Father Malachi Martin also used in some of his interviews toward the end of his life.

SPEAKER_02: 44:58

Yeah, yeah. Look, the the whole the whole idea of of um allowing migrants into our country was never about votes. I mean, it is about votes, but it's more about making it so that we are no longer a people, right? It's making it that we have nothing in common with one another. So when World War II happened, you had an American culture, and the Americans went because they they but you did. There was no culture, there was enough patriotism where people wanted to fight for their country. Like if our country went to war right now, would you want to fight for your country?

SPEAKER_06: 45:33

We would be so screwed if we were right, but but that's all that's all I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03: 45:37

So, yeah, there's nothing that unites us as a people where you fight for Americans wanted to fight World War II. Did they fight the right fight?

SPEAKER_06: 45:47

No, maybe not, but they were still united enough as a people in towards evil in a sense, like as far as the whole as far as the holy land is concerned, maybe we should just go back to the kingdom of Jerusalem.

SPEAKER_02: 46:02

All in favor of that, say uh yeah, but that but but that's the thing, it was a Christian land, like all of the the whole Middle East was a Christian land at one point, and then Islam came in and wiped it out. And when you allow Islam to come into Europe and into America and into Canada and all these different places, it's only a matter of time before they just do the same thing, right? Um, this is why you can't just say I'll stay at home and teach my family and not worry about the church. Civilization is crumbling because the church is not defending worry about the church. No, but the thing is, I don't I just don't think anything we're doing is going to change these events. That's all I'm saying.

SPEAKER_06: 46:43

Like right, it's not we need a Catholic version of Charlie Kirk doing what he was doing for the social kingship of Jesus Christ. That's what we need in the church right now, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02: 46:54

That would help. I mean, it would help, but it's still not like. Do you see how silent our hierarchy was on the Charlie Kirk thing?

SPEAKER_06: 47:03

Yeah, so I don't think they've said anything, other than I mean, Bishop Strickland has has said some good things. I don't remember who all else has said things, but very few. Uh Archbishop Vigano's Archbishop Vigano posted about it, so so kudos to him for that. Uh, I can't remember if I've seen any other bishops posting about it. Oh, Cardinal Mueller said some nice things in his interview with Diane Montagna. So there have been a few, but not. I mean, the USCCB, I don't think they've they certainly haven't rolled out the red carpet like for George Floyd or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02: 47:38

It's but that's what I mean. Like it's inside look, there's no earthly solution to how bad things are. It is so bad. There have been so many wicked men raised to the to the ranks of of the episcopate at this point that like it's going to take an act of God.

SPEAKER_03: 47:57

Oh, it depends what you mean by earthly solution. I I think if if if we had great saints rise up, you know, a a a modern Saint Dominic, right? To to to preach a new Albigenzian crusade against the the issues we have, um, you know, a new um Bernardo Claveau to to preach a crusade against the Mohammedans, things like that. If you had great saints rise up like that, um and maybe they're out there. I'm I'm sure maybe they probably are. But I mean here's the other thing I think that's or that could be a solution, whether or not you call that an act of God or earthly, you know, through man.

SPEAKER_02: 48:37

Yeah, right, right.

SPEAKER_06: 48:41

I think the other thing we have to keep in mind regardless, you know, sanctity, we all need to be pursuing sanctity in our own daily lives. I know Father Ripperger talks often about the fact that I forget exactly how he puts it, but um, you know, the the power, the spiritual power of the church in a certain sense is dependent on the the holiness of the members of the church and the the virtue and the merits that we have, you know, because we're cooperating with God's grace and living a holy life. That's one reason why it takes so much longer for pre for exorcists to complete a major exorcism. You know, decades ago it maybe would take a few days, now it takes months to years to liberate someone, and it's because the church is spiritual, the human element of the church is very spiritually weak right now because so many of her members are either dead or lukewarm, you know, we're not living our faith fervently, and that has real consequences.

SPEAKER_02: 49:42

Yeah, and I also think that like the the allure of that the church had in the early church, especially like you had all these miracles happening, the church was like at its brightest in the early centuries, and then it goes through a period where you'd always have saints performing miracles and having mass conversions and stuff. You're constantly hearing this debate about is the church growing, is it shrinking? It's like it's shrinking, like I and especially in in the west, it's shrinking, like it might be growing in certain regions and other places, but in the west, Christianity is on the decline, uh, completely on the decline. You might have pockets of growth, and there might be some fervor in those pockets, but overall, the church is in the in the decline, it doesn't have these great miracles to show anymore, it doesn't look like the church of the like it doesn't look like it. It doesn't, it's it looks like Christ after he was scourged. That's just what I see right now. So I don't know. Look, I I don't know how God is going to fix this, but I do think God is going to fix this, and I don't know. And Andrew, no, that's not true. It's not like you'd reject the great saints for being mouthy and rejecting apostate bishops. If I see great saints doing this, we'll we'll go from there. It's not I'm I'm watching people like my peers doing this, and I'm talking to my peers. If one of them's a great saint, I I defer, I'll follow your lead. But I think all of us are trying to figure this thing out.

SPEAKER_06: 51:14

Well, the other thing that they need to keep in mind is that saints defer to the authority of the church, they don't make themselves the private judge of who's an apostate and who's not, they defer to the judgment of the authorities in the church.

SPEAKER_02: 51:29

Yeah, look, this is this is a complicated issue. I don't know. I you know, I want to at least address the article, um, and uh and address these guys. Like, I I I I I like all these guys. I think that we're all on the same team. Like, I don't, you know, I think it's I think it's it's not like any of us don't believe the Catholic faith. We all see there's a major issue that happened with the council. That is the source of 90% of the problems. We're seeing it play out, it's played out over decades. The the conversation is now what is the approach? What do we do? Now, you guys, I'm not saying don't continue to point out the errors of Leo. I'm saying might want to go about a different strategy than than taking shots at your fellow Catholics who believe the same thing as you, or even have a disagreement. Like there's ways to have this conversation where it's not where it's where it's not trying to like ruin somebody else's reputation or credibility because they're they're doing something out of cowardice or something like that. I just don't think that's what it is. I don't think anybody got some memo. It's not like trad ink exists, it's not like trading got a memo, you guys are gonna do this now, and everybody's following marching orders. I think everybody's kind of just trying to readjust under the new papacy, see what the strategy should be to go from there. I I don't think there's some somebody leading this thing. That's all I that's that's all I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_06: 52:54

Well, if people if people want to know where I stand on Leo, they can listen to my uh my discussion I had with Ryan Grant on Monday of this week. We went for uh over three hours on my channel, Very Tati's Vox, dissecting in great detail his recent interview with Crux. And I have we had plenty of criticisms, we're certainly not holding back, but we also don't need to uh go to the other extreme and say, well, you know, Leo's not the Pope because I personally think he's guilty of heresy, like that's just not how it works.

SPEAKER_02: 53:29

Well, trad inc exists in as much as there are people who made their living by being trad and presenting the trad position. That is like if you're gonna say who's trad inc, if somebody is making their livelihood on presenting themselves as a trad, that is what you could say is trad ink, I guess, right? Like that's that they're making a living.

SPEAKER_03: 53:51

I'm just Stephen Cox is trad inc. Yes, yeah, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_06: 53:56

Like, where do you draw the line? I was managing editor of Catholic Family News for over seven years. Does that mean I'm trad inc? Because I mean, that's basically saying that journalism is not a legitimate profession. That's what you're saying. I'm not gonna go there, Matt.

SPEAKER_02: 54:13

It's absolutely a legitimate profession. I know people need to read.

SPEAKER_06: 54:16

Ken Kennedy Hall wrote an outstanding article a couple years ago for the uh New Oxford Review, where he distinguished between a professional Catholic, which is the pejorative, versus a Catholic professional. I I would highly recommend people find that article and read it. I forget the title of it.

SPEAKER_02: 54:35

Trad ink and someone who does three hour podcasts, shouldn't someone who does three hour podcasts with Ryan Grant. That's what you were supposed to say. You were supposed to accuse Matt of being trading.

SPEAKER_06: 54:45

I don't even monetize my channel, people. It's all free. I don't even have any paid supporters.

SPEAKER_02: 54:51

You're seriously that you should.

SPEAKER_03: 54:54

If you're gonna be called trad ink, man, you might as well make money.

SPEAKER_02: 54:57

You may as well cash in on it, bro. Come on. Um, all right, so we're gonna go over to locals and we're gonna we're gonna do the Protestant canonization of Charlie Kirk because I have a lot of thoughts on that. Um, I didn't think this would go an hour, I didn't know where it was gonna go tonight. But I yeah, look, um I I hope to have conversations with these guys. Like, I really do. I I I would like to have conversations with them. I I'm I'm probably gonna do another one with Mario and Kevin. Um I I Joshua Charles said he was open to discussing the passion of the church with the set of acantists, so that's a possibility too. Like, I'm not I I I'm I don't know. I'm I'm open to all conversations, man. Like, I and I'm gonna get a lot of things wrong. Like that last show we did, I said a bunch of things when I was tired, and then I went back and I and I was thinking about it. I'm like, yeah, there's a little soft pedal in that because I was probably trying to be too cordial or something. Like, I I am I'm too amiable. I like to I I want like I fall into that mode of not wanting to to argue with people, and it I don't it's it's hard for me. I'm an Italian and I like everybody to get along and stuff, so you know it's one of my faults. That's an Italian thing, yeah. Yeah, we just want everybody to get along, be happy, and I'm not yeah, you know, unless somebody like directly confronts you, and then it's just you'll go for their throat, right? So this morning I woke up and I saw that Chris wrote that article, and I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna go for his throat. And I was Chris, I almost lost it if you're watching. Like, and then I calmed down a bit. I was like, All right, I'll settle down a bit. Uh um, it's uh it's it's not just using your brain, it is that, yeah, absolutely. It's actually using your intellect, it's using your it's using your intellect, but it's also looking at um looking at the promises of Christ as well.

SPEAKER_03: 56:49

And like a lot of actors use their brain too, so you can't just say that.

SPEAKER_02: 56:56

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, everybody claims they're using their intellect, right? There's gotta be there's gotta be something to it. So um, all right, we're gonna head over to locals. Um, we'll see where this conversation goes. Uh, we'll probably give it a rest for next week. It was, you know, just on my mind this week. Uh, I hope everybody uh does figure out a good a good game plan and that everybody could come to the table and have a conversation. That's that's my position on it. How about you, Matt? You got any got any final thoughts before we go?

SPEAKER_06: 57:28

Oh, I'm not sure. I think I've said what I wanted to say about it. I mean, um I just I think it's in poor taste to use the pejorative constantly. I mean, and it's almost getting obsessive at this point. I think that's what really strikes me as odd. Like, is that I I have to agree with you. Like, if I were building a platform, I wouldn't want it to be about obsessing about my enemies or those who I perceive to be my enemy.

SPEAKER_02: 57:55

Like, you gotta be pursuing something good, it can't just be attacking other people, and and I think it's also about like building relationships is very important. It just is well. Should we do super chats before we go, Rob? We we we definitely should read super chats before we go, sure. Um okay. Uh, I think two two biggest issues as one interfaith church replacing missionary church necessary for salvation, and two changes to the mass. Yeah, like uh ecumenism is by far the most baffling thing since the council. Um, the idea that Muslims and Jews worship the same God as us, I am completely baffled by I I the way I see it is Jesus goes and tells the Pharisees they worship the devil. I don't know how we make sense of that. Um Bobby says, uh, the point of the council was to meet the world where it is. The post-conciliar popes, in that spirit of the council, have been afraid to offend the world. I agree wholeheartedly with that. Um, and then papal monarchist enjoyer. The issue that I had with that article when I read through it is that by proxy, it leaves young trads like me in a difficult spot of feeling like traitors to the cause that we were never a part of.

SPEAKER_06: 59:09

The art meaning Chris Jackson's article. Chris Jackson's article, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 59:12

I assume so. Yeah, like the yeah, yeah, like I can I kind of get that, right? Like you read through it, and it's like any anybody that takes that position, it's like you're betraying some movement or something. I I don't I don't know. I just think it's a disagreement on on approach. That's what I think of it.

SPEAKER_06: 59:35

And like I think a more constructive way to approach the whole issue would be to be exhorting if you if you think Michael Matt doesn't have the right strategy, if you think Taylor Marshall doesn't have the right strategy, share respectfully share your disagreement and exhort them to maybe reconsider. Don't start trashing them as trad ink. That's just gonna that's just gonna turn them off to you and It's not gonna do anything, it's not gonna help.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:02

Yeah, they're not like me, they're not gonna get down in the mud and talk to you guys.

SPEAKER_05: 1:00:06

Like, like I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:09

I like I like I like getting in the mud and talking to everybody. Like, I don't those guys aren't gonna they don't even talk to me usually. Michael Matt, Michael Matt doesn't talk to me.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:18

Oh, I was gonna say the person I feel most sorry for right now is Michael Matt. That's because he's gonna make one of two mistakes on Sunday when you're at mass with him. He's either going to acknowledge you and then have to listen to you, or he's gonna ignore you and then have a video made about him.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:38

He's gotta know who we are. He has to know who we are. It's it's virtually impossible for Michael Matt to not know who we are. I've never had a conversation with the guy, but come on. If he pretends he doesn't know me, you're right. There's gonna be a video afterwards. I know I brought it. Yes, you guys are the rip rap. Yeah, if I go and I and I meet Michael Matt or I see him at Mass and he pretends he doesn't know me, there's gonna be an episode after that. I'm joining the Mad Trads. I was gonna say I'm writing an article for Chris Jackson. Trad Inc is a problem. Yes, absolutely. I will absolutely I'm gonna write an article for Chris Jackson Substack if that happens. I'll tell you right now. He doesn't even have a silver YouTube play button and wants Michael Matt to acknowledge him.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:29

Oh you think Brad would have us on if we had a silver play button?

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:33

I don't know. I don't know. I can't figure Matt out. I like Matt. I actually talked to him the other day. We'll uh we'll see how that goes. We're gonna we're gonna try and uh keep keep keep keep all channels open for dialogue. We'll see how that goes. I know it'll happen. We'll get Kevin James on, and then everybody will want to talk to us. That's how it's gonna go. Kevin James is Catholic. I just heard that. It's so crazy. Somebody just mentioned Kevin James is Catholic, and I can't I can't get over it. It's wild.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:03

Next, you're gonna tell me like Rob Schneider's Catholic, too, or something.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:06

Rob Schneider's Catholic? Um, no, but Father Rippiger is joining us on Tuesday, right?

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:13

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:14

You're the one that made it so the 29th, right?

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:18

Yes, father Ripper on the Monday's the 29th, Monday's the 20th or the 30th.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:22

Yeah, yeah. The next show we're on, Father Rippiger will be on with us. Nice. Let's talk about Trading.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:29

No matter how many times you pull that joke, someone falls for it. Every time.

SPEAKER_06: 1:02:35

I'm happy to say I'm gonna be having Father on my channel as well pretty soon.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:39

Father Ripper is the Catholic.

SPEAKER_06: 1:02:44

When do you have Father coming on? Uh October 13th, Fatima anniversary.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:50

I'm glad we got him first. We're gonna get the juicy sound bites out of them. We'll leave you with nothing. Um all right, guys. We're heading over to locals. If you guys aren't members, come over there. That's where we have all the fun and we uh we get pretty fun so far. It's always fun on our show. We always have a good time. But all right, we'll see you guys on the other side. Take us out, Rob.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:28

Hello everyone. Uh, this is Ryan here, your host at Preconciliar Radio, uh, doing my first broadcast uh today on a topic that unfortunately um I'm deeply, deeply saddened. And I'm deeply saddened for uh my day job uh is that of an attorney, and I am suing someone for monetary gain.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:59

Thanks a lot, Anthony. Oh man.