Protestantism & the Overthrow of Christ's Earthly Kingdom with Joshua Charles

What happens when nations reject Christ as their King? Throughout history, earthly rulers acknowledged a higher spiritual authority, but modern states have reversed this order—with devastating consequences for civilization and faith.

Joshua Charles joins Anthony for a profound exploration of Christendom's rise and fall. They unpack Larry Arnn's controversial claim that "a Christian nation is not possible because Jesus' kingdom is not of this world," revealing how this fundamentally misunderstands Catholic teaching about Christ's authority over all creation.

The conversation journeys through historical Christianity, where temporal rulers recognized their subordination to spiritual authority for over a millennium. This wasn't mere symbolism—it represented the proper ordering of society, with baptism creating an objective covenant that bound believers and nations alike.

We're witnessing the culmination of centuries of spiritual rebellion, from the Reformation's fracturing of unified Christian worship to modern states declaring themselves the highest authority. As Saint Bruno of Cologne predicted, we now live in times where "faith is in secret and iniquity in public"—a telling sign of spiritual deterioration.

Most chillingly, recent developments surrounding the Third Temple and red heifer sacrifices echo what Church Fathers warned would precede Antichrist. The discussion examines historical parallels, particularly Julian the Apostate's failed attempt to rebuild the Jewish Temple in 363 AD, and what these events might tell us about our own time.

Rather than succumbing to despair, Joshua and Anthony emphasize hope in God's providence. They remind us that while the Church might appear to be losing on earth, her saints are being crowned in heaven, from which they reign with Christ. The conversation concludes with practical spiritual guidance for navigating these challenging times through prayer, fasting, and renewed devotion to the sacraments.

Chapters

• 0:00 Episode Introduction
• 6:34 Christendom and Church-State Relations
• 26:31 The Meaning of Christ's Kingdom
• 43:10 Protestant vs. Catholic Spiritual Life
• 1:00:23 Larry Arnn and "Christian Nation" Debate
• 1:17:42 Historical Breakdown of Christendom
• 1:32:28 Signs of Apostasy in Modern Times
• 1:43:08 The Third Temple and Jewish Prophecies
• 1:57:09 The Church's View on End Times

Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:26

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Speaker 1: 0:37

Over and over and over and over and over. Stop it. Oh, we had to tease you. Taffy is a master. Yeah, josh, we have to figure something out with the chat. Who's Taffy? Taffy is our resident intro video maker. I have a tip jar at the top of my Twitter that will connect to my Venmo or Cash App. You just touch the little tip jar if anybody wants to tip Taffy. So far, he has $96 in the tip jar. So yeah, I'll send that over to him once it hits 100. Yeah, the last episode was a little frustrating because Josh could not. He's like a child with ADHD when the live chat's going so and Rob is on.

Speaker 3: 1:24

I'm looking back in that comments. Man yo, you guys are still in those comments.

Speaker 1: 1:31

By the way, um rob is out on paternity leave. He uh he had nine laborious hours of labor. Uh, hope right now is massaging his back that he's as he recovers. Uh, I heard he got a pullout couch this time instead of the stiff chair that he got last for the last three children. So, but okay, so here's what we're going to do. You're going to switch over to private chat so that you can't see all the towers they're building over in the live chat. The towers, yeah, they, these, these, these gen z kids are out of their minds. But I have a few things I would like to actually get to tonight. Before we do that, if you guys are not already, you guys need to go check out Eternal Christendom, you want?

Speaker 3: 2:18

to do a quick plug for Eternal Christendom while I get the oh gosh, I'll make it super quick, yeah. By the way, thank you to your audience. You guys really kicked it off. We're trying to basically get all of our expenses covered by smaller monthly patrons and, uh, we're releasing a video about it soon. I released it on x already. But, uh, asking catholics to give ten dollars a month if they can give more, great, um, we've got a big vision and we went from, uh, we've gone to about a third of our goal. We were at about 20%. Now we're closer to a third, so 33% in like a month, month and a half.

Speaker 3: 2:50

And a lot of our audience helped out right, yeah, oh, absolutely, you guys really kicked it off. So thank you. And we still got work to do, but we're making a lot of progress and we're trying to create a lot of tools that all sorts of apostles can use. I mean even you know whether you know super serious academic ones like Christian Wagner, to more more silly, casual. But you know you guys are quite deep sometimes too. So you know we're trying to create resources that everybody can use to help share and and teach the Catholic faith.

Speaker 3: 3:20

So I had, I had some tax deductible.

Speaker 1: 3:22

By the way, we're nonprofit, so I had somebody message me right before the show and they told me they love how, when you come on our show, you're much more like you're not serious, josh, you're much more laid back and we bring the silliness out of you a little bit yeah.

Speaker 3: 3:37

Well, part of it with the. I actually yeah, part of it is with our podcast. When I do monologues, it is it is to a script that I write, and the reason I do that is to I'll say extemporaneous things here and there, but it's to be respectful of the audience's time. And if the subject is deep, we'll go deep. It'll be a bit longer. If it's shorter, it'll be shorter. But whether it's a deeper subject or one we can cover more quickly, I want to do it in a in as concise and illuminating a fashion as possible. So, yeah, on a stream like this, we can be a bit more loosey goosey.

Speaker 1: 4:12

So what I'm thinking is what we're going to do is I had three, three topics I wanted to cover with you on the YouTube side. Those were this what was his name? Well, you had an exchange with Aaron McIntyre I thought would be interesting to cover, but then also the Larry Arnn. Larry P Arnn had made some comments about how there can't be a Christian nation because Christ's kingdom is not of this world, and I thought we could talk about that a little bit.

Speaker 1: 4:44

The president of Hillsdale yeah, the president of Hillsdale College. I wanted to discuss that. I also wanted to discuss some of the craziness going on with the third temple. I have a clip of what the heck is that Adam King on Tim Pool's show and he was discussing the third temple and how they're sacrificing red heifers. So those are the covers. I want the topics I wanted to cover over here and I'm going to save like 20 minutes for the end of the show where we will actually engage the live chat and you guys, if you have any questions, if you have any any super chats, anything like that, we will get to them. But I do want to try to dive a little deeper, because last conversation was like you guys were just firing things out of josh and you I think it was actually fun for everybody except you, but I know I will.

Speaker 3: 5:30

I will respect your request. I am not before god.

Speaker 1: 5:33

I am not looking at the chat right now well, the thing is it's super fun for the live viewers, like the people who are live watching. They love it because they're getting a kick out of distracting you. But the people that watch the replay it's like super frustrating because they'll they want to just hear something of substance. So that's what we're going to do. The long and prosper all we'll get to the questions which one do you think we should start with?

Speaker 1: 5:54

do you think we should start with the hillsdale college? Up to you, yeah, let's do that. So the president of hillsdale college? Um, let's see, I mean, you guys got to. I don't have Rob here. So, all right, here we go. Let's see how we do. All right, James Madison.

Speaker 6: 6:17

Our republic is founded in the great fact and the whole course and economy of nature, the indissoluble connection between virtue and happiness. That's just a summary of Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics.

Speaker 4: 6:30

And you said something really important with the letter that Washington writes to the Jewish synagogue there is a difference between liberty and toleration, that those were not identical. So religious toleration is we have an established church, we have a state religion. We will tolerate those who are dissenters Liberty is a more expansive definition and until you were reading it there again, I had forgotten that.

Speaker 1: 6:58

Are you able to at least hear it?

Speaker 3: 7:00

It's a little choppy for me.

Speaker 1: 7:04

Is the audience hearing it? Choppy you guys got. Is the audience here in a choppy you guys got to? Let me know. Josh can't see the comments, but I can.

Speaker 6: 7:09

Let's say Washington, but I'm choosing not to. Yeah, um, you know I uh, hilldale college is famous, which is a good thing Almost always. But but some mischievous journalist right but thing almost always. But but some mischievous journalist writes, but they are admired by the christian nation and it's sort of and I wrote a letter to the editor.

Speaker 6: 7:32

They probably printed it. I just said, uh, somebody admiring somebody else doesn't necessarily say anything about somebody else. That's right. But if they do admiredale College, they will learn from it that a Christian nation is not possible because Jesus' kingdom is not of this world George.

Speaker 1: 7:53

Washington. Okay, did you hear that? Were you able to make out what he said? He said a Christian nation is not possible because Jesus' kingdom is not of this world. And I had taken issue with something Lila Rose said a while back. I'm not trying to get you into that, but she had also said something about, like, our mission is not politics because Christ's kingdom is not of this world. And I think that people have gotten this impression from that verse and from a misreading through Protestantism that it's such a warped understanding of church and state and this idea of liberty and this all really started at the Reformation.

Speaker 3: 8:37

Yeah, I mean, there's some truth to it. It requires, I think you know, making some distinctions, but there's a lot that's wrong with it. Well, let me pull up my response to Arne, but I guess I can stay as a preliminary point that when Christ says that his kingdom is not of this world, I mean, what does that mean? He says that all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to him and then, on that basis, he tells the apostles to you know, preach sorry, I was having a bit of a tech issue on my end was um, you know, to preach to the nations and teach them to observe all that I have commanded you. So you know if? Um, let me just explain the basis of Christendom, because I actually want to help train people to. Um, we can use the term church and state that's a more modern term, but I want to explain what the Catholic ideal is, and we don't need to have the ideal for the church to carry out our mission. That's very important for Catholics to realize. We do not need a political regime. In fact, my personal opinion is that we are more likely than not so I'm saying I'm making a probable, probabilistic statement more likely than not to not see a revival of Christendom, but but when it?

Speaker 3: 9:53

When he says it's not of this world he's talking about, I think, ultimately the source of righteousness and the fact that human nature, dead from original sin, can't produce its own righteousness. It cannot stand before God righteous without God extending his nature to us and making it righteous before him. But we know that. Let's say, let's do an example here. So if an apostle had a layman become Catholic and let's say that layman happened to be an emperor, right, that layman is under the apostle's authority. But when he becomes emperor, that doesn't mean he's any less under the apostle's authority in regard to certain matters. And so that's why the more traditional nomenclature is temporal and spiritual powers. Right, because the ideal of Christendom is that both of them are in the church, right.

Speaker 3: 10:45

When people say the church, what it more properly means is the priesthood. But the priesthood is not the church, right, it speaks for the church, right. So there's a sense in which you know if my arm was cut off and whatnot, I'd still be me. But if my head was chopped off, right or yours, there'd be a sense in which you know we'd more properly say that you know I am no longer myself, because there's a sense in which my identity is centered in my head though it's not completely in my head and so it's the same with the priesthood. So when people say the church, they're typically referring to the priesthood.

Speaker 3: 11:20

So the Christendom ideal is that both temporal and spiritual are submitted to Christ, and it doesn't mean that the temporal is submitted to the priesthood in every single matter. That's insane. That's not Catholic teaching, because priests are not competent to manage the common good. That's for temporal rulers. But temporal rulers cannot advocate for the common good and work toward the common good absent the priesthood's guidance on faith and morals. So they are not an end unto themselves. And so what Arne? And then Arne made another comment later on about, he said so-called Christian Europe. Before we jump to that, I want to point something out.

Speaker 1: 12:03

Well, before we jump to that, I want to point something out. There's a fundamental misunderstanding, between Catholics and Protestants also, of what the gospel is. As a Catholic, our understanding of the gospel is the kingdom of heaven colonizing earth. There's a significant aspect of that right. So, as we're building our cathedrals and the altar is spreading throughout the earth, that is the kingdom of heaven coming to earth. So even though Christ's kingdom is not of this earth, it does not mean Christ is not the authority over the earth. And after the Reformation you still had even the Protestant nations still recognized Christ as king. But in our modern age, we now have these political establishments that do not recognize Christ as King anymore. So they're, they're making laws as if they are above God now. So so they they. They should be subject to the natural law, because that is God's law, but they are deciding no, we know better than God and we don't care what God wants. We are putting ourselves above God. They're making themselves gods, essentially.

Speaker 3: 13:09

Yeah and sorry. I have had two nights in a row Like the first night was almost no sleep and last night was less than six hours of sleep before I went up, got up and went to mass this morning. So I am a little tired but I'll do my best. Yeah, it's, um, it's. It's when it's not of this world. What does that mean? It means that that which assumed human nature and healed it was not from this world, it was divinity, right, so it is not of this world and it also doesn't win by earthly means. That's why he said, that's why my followers don't take up a sword and conquer. I mean the Catholic position. And here I'll make another distinction. Here.

Speaker 3: 13:44

The Catholic position has been that forced conversion is always wrong. Always, Even at the height of the medieval period, popes consistently said you cannot force non-Christians to become Christians. That's absurd, because becoming a Christian is a matter of receiving a gift from God. Right, so there's nothing that a human being can do by the sword to acquire this gift for God. That it be almost a form of the Simon Magus heresy, who wanted to get the gift of the Holy Spirit through money, this would be a slight variation of it. Let's get the gift of the Holy Spirit through temporal power right, which is where we get the word simony from.

Speaker 3: 14:24

Yeah, simony.

Speaker 1: 14:25

Selling offices in the church.

Speaker 3: 14:27

Yeah, exactly the first heresy. And so that's where people need to understand that when there was, you know, arne referred to religious persecution and violence in so-called Christian Europe, what he's talking about. This is where he's fundamentally wrong, and I'm not here to justify everything that happened. Not at all. There are prudent and imprudent measures that temporal rulers can use. There have been many times when Catholic rulers used imprudent measures, etc.

Speaker 3: 14:57

But it's a fundamentally different situation when you're talking about somebody who is bound by the covenant. If you're in the covenant the new covenant by baptism, you are under obligations, and one of those obligations is you cannot spread heresy and draw other Christians into schism period. So if there's a lay temporal ruler who is bound and who is brought into the covenant by baptism, he's under a priest who has been brought into the new covenant by baptism and they likewise rule over a lay person as far as their dual end. Right, because we have a dual end, a natural end, which is the common good, and a supernatural end, which is the beatific vision and you have this priest and this temple ruler likewise ruling over another baptized person who's also in the covenant.

Speaker 3: 15:44

What are they supposed to do when that third baptized person starts spreading heresy and schism and trying to draw other Christians who are likewise in the covenant into the same thing. They're going to stop him and I would say they have a moral right to do so. That doesn't mean they have a moral right to use any means whatsoever right, that'd be a form of consequentialism. But there is a. There is a moral right to temporally restrict that kind of behavior I don't know where.

Speaker 3: 16:10

Sorry, I would say a moral obligation, yeah yeah, exactly, I mean I I'm forgetting where but canon law to this day affirms that the church has the right to temporally punish her children. Yeah, so to so to exact penalties. So I'm forgetting the exact language, but it stems from baptism. I hear almost nobody say this. These sorts of things stem from baptism. So when somebody's conscience is being coerced quote unquote very, very different.

Speaker 3: 16:37

When you have a non-baptized person versus a baptized person, now I'm not just saying you can start, we have a lot of baptized Protestants, right. Person. Now I'm not just saying you can start, we have a lot of baptized Protestants, right. We are in a very different situation right now. So I'm not I'm not trying to, you know, give a black and white. You know, everybody who's baptized therefore needs to submit to some Catholic. We're in a very different situation now because we've had centuries of Christendom dissolving and and, and you know, you know going into retrograde, and so that situation's not going to be cured by the sword. But when you're in a fundamentally covenantal society, that's what happens and that's why God told Moses to do this. When there were violations of the covenant, the judges and the priests were empowered by God to punish the breakers of the covenant.

Speaker 1: 17:24

So the reason we call Christ king of kings. Well, first off, it's a reference to the Babylonian king, but he is the king of kings because the kings of the world, especially during the thousand year rule of Christendom in the middle ages, you know from from the sixth century through the 16th century, kings of the earth would go and kiss the slippers of the Pope, not because of the Pope, necessarily, but it was a show, a show of a sign of reverence to the king of Kings and that was his representative on earth. So to say that Christ's kingdom is not of this world is kind of backwards thinking. For centuries the kingdom of heaven was this idea of Christendom where the kings of the earth would go and pay homage to the king of kings and they were subordinate to his rule, even though his kingdom is not of this world.

Speaker 1: 18:25

We just have such a misunderstanding of it in today's world because we live in this pluralistic society, especially in America, and a lot of that is because they're trying to flood us with this idea of a multicultural democracy and when you're part of that, because, especially with immigration I never thought immigration was about votes and I think it was always presented to us as Democrats are flooding the country with immigrants because they know they'll vote Democrat. That is such a simplistic way to understand what is happening. What they're trying to do is break down the fabric of anything that kept us together. So you already had a split nation, because Protestants are already split. They don't worship at the same altar, but now you start flooding the country with Arabs and Indians and all these people that worship foreign gods, and there's really nothing to unite us against a foreign enemy and I think that's really what the whole idea of open borders is about is to cause disunity amongst the populace.

Speaker 3: 19:32

Yeah, I think that's possible. I would say, though, that the fundamental break did arrive with Protestantism because you did have nominally and in a sense, a lot more real than what we have now, that's for sure even Christian societies under Protestant regimes. But here's the issue and I brought this up before the issue with all these questions and this is also why you can't simply reverse it. This is not like a pass a law, and it's not at all. This is a fundamental transformation that would be required, and, if it happened, it would probably take for sure take decades, maybe even centuries at this point. But, um, the question is what covenant looks like. You're looking at the chat, anthony.

Speaker 1: 20:13

Well, I do glance at it, but I'm listening. Okay, I'm listening, all right I'm not.

Speaker 3: 20:18

I'm not to keep your little italian head happy. Um, no, I. The issue is what covenant binds your society together? Is it a spiritual covenant or is it a temporal covenant? Is it a covenant based from heaven or based on earth? And so, after the split of the Protestants from the church, you basically had this principle instantiated of the religion of the prince is the religion of the people. And so already, no longer are the obligations of baptism the basis for how you hold society together.

Speaker 3: 20:52

Right, because baptism imparts an objective reality to the human soul. Right, whether you know, there's people's opinions about what happened with this, and then there's the actual reality Scripture says there's one Lord, one faith, one baptism. Right, there's people's opinions about what happened with this, and then there's the actual reality Scripture says there's one Lord, one faith, one baptism. Right, there's one altar, there's one church, there's one episcopate. All these things are one, because that's not only what Christ calls us to, but it's a reflection of the unity of the Trinity itself. Christ himself connects the unity of the apostles, which is the unity of the episcopate and the flocks under them, with the unity of the Trinity itself. Right, he also said it's very interesting, just as a quick side note.

Speaker 3: 21:29

You know I was never a Calvinist, but Calvinists and you know there's a place for some of this but they're ever watchful to make sure none of God's glory is taken by humans, right?

Speaker 3: 21:40

And yet, in John 17, jesus says that the glory you gave me, speaking to the Father, I give to them. So, and it's very interesting, and I think this glory is the unity of the church that you know, the church will and has gone through very hard days. It'll have harder days yet, but, but that fundamental unity will never be undone because the second person of the Trinity has his prayers answered, and so so, if your society is, if the covenant that binds it together is a supernatural one and there's only one of those, it's baptism uh, certain obligations and duties flow from that. But if you're going to say, well, we're bound by baptism, but the obligations that flow from it are based on the religion of our Prince, then what you're doing is you're taking the supernatural covenant right covenant right, and and the temporal covenant is supposed to be underneath and subordinate to that higher covenant. You are switching them, yeah, and then our civilization has been on the invariable path of regression that that logic entails yeah, so the reformation really is the beginning of the end.

Speaker 1: 22:44

Essentially, there's another thing when talking about Calvinism, right, like where you don't want to give God's glory to man, there's something fundamental they misunderstand about the saints are God's glory. Yeah, exactly, that actually is God's glory, right? So when we're reverencing the saints, what you're actually reverencing is the glory of God, because I think Paul talks about it in Ephesians, where he says that even the angels look on in awe at what God has done to man, that they're like what is happening here, like man, who was so wicked and evil, is now holy, and they're, they're acting like christ. So the the thing you see in the saint is actually christ in that person, so that, and they really don't grasp that. So they, they think that we're venerating. We are venerating, but they think we're worshiping the saint, but we're really just recognizing what God could do to a man.

Speaker 1: 23:47

This, this real misunderstanding of holiness. It's like I always it's such a shallow theology, protestantism. It's you, you, you convert and you have your, your, your born again moment, and then from there, there it's the depth, is just reading scripture and there's no, there's no spiritual life to it, it's just a little bit on my end.

Speaker 3: 24:12

Sorry, can you say that last part again?

Speaker 1: 24:15

I said that they have their, their born again moment, and then it's about reading scripture, but there's not. You know, they may do some acts of charity and you know, or whatever, but there's no real spiritual life where you grow deeper in love with with god, because they, they're, we okay, so you, you're salvation up for protestants.

Speaker 3: 24:37

A little bit on that, you can just let me finish this thought though because they so our.

Speaker 1: 24:42

You can't work, you can't earn your salvation, and works can't save you. But your sanctification, like you, your sanctification absolutely has to do with works. Right like you are you, we are. We believe in a works-based sanctification.

Speaker 3: 24:57

We don't believe in a works-based salvation, but a works-based sanctification like the, the good works you do, actually grow your love for god yeah, I, I wouldn't say, look, do I believe that the possibilities of the spiritual life as a catholic are far, far, far, far greater than than protestantism in general?

Speaker 1: 25:20

but let let josh defend, because fed, fed, calderon is a protestant and I'm, you know, I know I'm generalizing also, like I definitely am generalizing, so I don't think of that of all Protestants. But you know, I'll let Josh actually rebut what I said.

Speaker 3: 25:36

Yeah, and I don't. I just to be as fair as possible, and I, you know, people know I don't have. You know I love many Protestants and the top three or four people my phone or dear Protestant mentors I've known for most of my life. But I I'm not a fan of Protestantism, but no, I mean there were.

Speaker 3: 25:53

There were some really key things I learned about the spiritual life as a Protestant. You know I learned from a dear mentor of mine, protestant, still Protestant, the value of fasting, and so I would routinely do, you know, three-day fasts every quarter or so throughout much of my life, long before becoming a Catholic. You know I would read devotionals like my Utmost for His Highest by Oswald Chambers, quite deep. You know there's things in it that I wouldn't accord to the Catholic faith, but there's plenty of things that would. So I'd say it's possible and there's more there than you think. But you know, to give credit to the truth of what you said, um, I do think the the um possibilities of the spiritual life are much less in any religion. That's not the fullness of truth. I would absolutely agree with that, and all the best things that I learned as a Protestant have have now reached. I don't feel I've lost any of them. They're all completed and fulfilled.

Speaker 1: 26:48

As a catholic, so yeah yeah, and this conversation can kind of dovetail into the aaron mcintyre conversation with um, with uh, tucker, um, because you, let me, let me find your, tweet it Um could I make one more point about Arne?

Speaker 3: 27:07

Yeah, of course, um, and again, I'm sorry, but I, I feel like I'm actually quite slow right now because I I'm just very tired from two days of not much sleep. So I'm doing my best, so, but, um, arne talked about Liberty, um, and, and you know, obviously this is a huge topic, it's a huge concept. So I, I, I'm gonna have to generalize somewhat, but the way he was talking about liberty was essentially, um, a sort of, uh, you know, bubble of pure will around each individual that they just get to will whatever they want within a certain bubble around them, right, and in this regard he was talking about, this bubble is for choice of religion, and of course the church would say that, yes, a non-believer can assent or not assent to the Catholic faith and they, you know, cannot be forced to convert Absolutely. But Arne is talking about it among Christians, and I was also going to say, you know, so that's very strange. You know, the church has always understood liberty to be a moral power to do what we ought. So morality is baked into the exercise of the will. So to call an exercise of the will that is not inherently moral, virtuous, whatever you want to say is not liberty, it'd be viciousness, which is the root of, you know, the root of which is vice, right, so sin. So it matters how the will is used.

Speaker 3: 28:36

So to say that, to say or conceive, and I used to think this way and I didn't realize it but to say that the Christian, a baptized person so we're talking about somebody who has been baptized, validly baptized received the Holy Spirit. They may have placed an impediment to the full grace of baptism by being in schism or heresy or whatever. We'll leave that between them and God. But a baptized person, they do not have a right to believe heresy or go into schism. They don't now. That doesn't mean that there has to be a temporal power. It may be imprudent to stop that. I think we're in an age right now where it would you couldn't like if we just suddenly had a catholic president. You know you can't just expect a catholic president to totally overturn the constitutional order in an extra constitutional way. That would be deeply imprudent for many, many reasons. They would have to slowly work towards something different, you know.

Speaker 1: 29:31

But you could expect him to follow Catholic moral. Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 3: 29:38

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 29:39

He may not be able to overturn the system in place, but you would expect him to follow Catholic moral teaching and he would be him to follow catholic moral teaching and he would be submitted to the pope on theological matters and things like that.

Speaker 3: 29:51

As much as possible, as much as possible you know, pope adrian the sixth, that we have an article about it on eternal christian, the becoming catholic part. Um, it's a really amazing line Actually, let me see if I can find it. This was like right after I think it was the Diet of Worms in 1520, may have been 1521. And unfortunately he died like very quickly. He was Pope for like about a year or so.

Speaker 3: 30:16

I think he's a saint, probably, or at least he would have been a saint. He was one of the only Dutch Popes and he basically acknowledged that gross sins in the papacy and the priesthood in general and the people, uh, but he primarily attributed to the priesthood, um was the reason god was allowing the scourge of luther, okay, but he also pointed out how luther's errors would lead to. I mean, his predictions were quite prophetic and he eventually he said that the same principles that luther is asserting against the church, they'll eventually be weaponized by the laity against temporal powers as well, which is exactly what happened two centuries later. Well, really, I mean in various, I guess you could say even a century later. Even it started happening basically right away, but it got worse and worse and worse and I would say culminated in 1776 and 1789. But he has this great line in here about this that I think is very relevant to this and it's something that I think is important to remember. He said he's promising to the Diet of Worms which is the kind of the parliament that's not the best term for it, but we'll just call it the parliament of the Holy Roman Empire, right the gathering of the princes of the Holy Roman Empire under their Holy Roman Emperor, and he's promising a huge agenda of reform.

Speaker 3: 31:39

Yet he says this. He says Yet no man should be surprised if he does not see all errors and abuses immediately corrected by us, for the sickness is of too long standing. Nor is it a single disease, but varied and complex. We must advance gradually to its cure and first attend to the more serious and more dangerous ills, lest, in a desire to reform everything at the same time, we throw everything into confusion. All sudden changes, says aristotle, are dangerous to the state. He who scrubs too much draws blood. What?

Speaker 3: 32:13

year is this sorry, what year was that? This was 1520 or 1521. Let me double check. Yeah, this is becoming catholic number 25 under setting the record straight on our website.

Speaker 1: 32:27

That's interesting.

Speaker 3: 32:28

Oh, I'm sorry. 1522.

Speaker 1: 32:30

But it's that long ago and now the ills are so bad. I was listening to Taylor talking to Joel Webben, because you were talking about how this voluntarism that exists where it's, you know, with liberty, it's like you have to choose God. You have to choose God, and Protestants take it to such a degree that they're not baptizing their children and they're waiting until their children are old enough to choose it for themselves and in a sense, their children aren't Christian, you know, and in a sense, they're not christian because they're not baptized yet and they're, they're, it's. It's such a crazy thing to me. And intuitively, they know like this ceremony is super important to do something with your, with your infant, when it's born. So they, they came up with the ceremony of the like, a dedication, because they know, they know like, yeah, they're, they know, even though they reject the idea of infant baptism in theory, they know deep in their heart this is a super important thing. So they dedicate their baby to christ. But you're, you're, you're raising your children as christians.

Speaker 1: 33:42

You don't wait until the, and I think that that comes down to so many of them live their life doing whatever they want and then they had this emotional experience and they and they they attribute that emotional experience that they had of being born again and they think that everyone needs to experience that emotional experience.

Speaker 1: 34:05

But, like my children were raised in the Catholic faith, thoroughly like and well taught, my kids never had some emotional breakthrough moment where they were like, oh, I accept Jesus into my heart because my children were just catechized from a very young age. So it's, it's, it's almost, I think so much of it is from their personal experience of them. You know, they were in a bad place in their life and then they read the Bible and they had this moment because I even had that as a Catholic. I had a moment where I was in a dark place in my life and I read the Bible and the words of the Bible came to life to me and I think they associate that so much with that emotional experience that they can't understand how baptism can regenerate somebody as an infant.

Speaker 3: 34:53

I mean, yeah, there's a million different things to say about what you said. If you want me to focus on anything in particular, let me know. But I would say there's a sizable minority of Protestants who do believe in infant baptism. But yeah, again I want people.

Speaker 3: 35:07

This is to be food for thought. It's not to lay out a comprehensive program of return to Christendom. It's simply to step into a completely different framework of thinking, because most modern people don't have it. If baptism is an objective reality, think of what Christians of the 16th century were being, were faced with. You know the. They were being faced with a new sex of Christians. We would call them Protestants today.

Speaker 3: 35:34

Um, and many product, many other Protestants were upset with these Protestants too, right, but they were refusing to baptize their children. So it'd be like a jew properly brought into the, the mosaic covenant, the abrahamic covenant as it was up till that point, through circumcision, who their whole life had been raised to go up to jerusalem three times a year, do all the sacrifices, do whatever the torah required, and then riff and then had children and then refused to have them circumcised. That's what Christians refusing to have their children baptized, that's what it represented to Christians in the 16th century and, frankly, I think we are right to be horrified by that. We can recognize that people who refuse to do this subjectively, meaning in the subject, meaning in their own minds, are not thinking maliciously. They're not.

Speaker 3: 36:29

Oh, let me do Satan's will. Right, let me do something that would make Satan happy. They're not thinking that, right. They're thinking I want to honor Jesus according to their erroneous beliefs. Right, but what they are doing objectively, meaning outside of their mind and in the object itself, beyond opinion, is evil, it's wicked, it's withholding heaven from an innocent child is what it really is.

Speaker 1: 36:55

So, all right. So now let me ask you this because you're saying this gradual return to Christendom? I personally do not think that's even remotely possible at this point. Like all of the nations have done that thing that you said, where they've subordinated the spiritual to the temporal, the spiritual to the temporal.

Speaker 3: 37:15

So so it's.

Speaker 1: 37:16

I don't think there's, this there's. I really don't think there's any nations left who are recognizing Christ as King in their governance. I think every, even even if you want to look to Poland or Hungary, they, they, they still allow abortion, they still allow things they know are evil, that they know they. There should be no place for the things that converted the pagans was, was, would be when Christians went and cared for the throwaways of the pagan empire, right Like they would throw the deformed infants on the side of the road and the Christians would go and care for them. And then, once Paul goes before the emperor not Paul, because Paul didn't convert the Roman emperor but once Constantine converts, and then you start getting Christian emperors, this, this, that's when you start to get Christendom, where the temporal is subordinate to the spiritual.

Speaker 3: 38:14

So, like you have Never perfectly, by the way yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:19

But you, you have. You have popes in in in what they would call the dark ages, but really the the early centuries of the church, arguing against the temporal rulers, saying you have the temporal authority and you have the spiritual authority, and of these two the spiritual is higher. This was the whole Charlemagne debacle and the pope crowning Charlemagne, and who has the authority to crown Charlemagne? And all of that stuff. And it is at the Reformation where they decide no, we do not, we no longer submit to Christ as king and they invent their own Jesus. Essentially, they invent their own version of Jesus that they're willing to submit to. They invent their own version of jesus that they're willing to submit to. But that's not the. You know. It's not, because if you remove the mass and the holy sacrifice from christianity, it's just totally neutered. At that point it's you're. You're no longer in the covenant. At that point you're not in the new covenant without the eucharist no, you're in it by baptism that's okay.

Speaker 3: 39:23

Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, but you're not around the altar and you're not meeting your obligations. So let me back up and nestle this all and like because I know you love this sort of thing and I know you completely agree with what I'm about to say like, let's nestle it in within an even bigger picture. Um and we'll probably bring in eschatology into this at some point the bigger picture is that the church and I think we need to remember this and study it and ponder it and meditate upon it all the time, especially these days the church is fully and perfectly and forever established in heaven, the church triumphant. We call it right, the basis for the infallibility which is the ability to teach without error. It's not the same as inspiration, right, scripture is inspired. Well, in terms of Catholic theology, we'd say it's inspired, we wouldn't say it's infallible. In Catholic theology, that term is technically applied to living authorities, but scripture is inspired, which is actually higher than infallible, right? Which is why we don't say that scripture is the sole infallible. So we say it is inspired. So, just because we say the authority of the church is infallible under certain conditions, actually it doesn't mean we're making it equal to scripture, because it's like infallibility is and inspirations here? Yeah, right, but you still have inspiration that you receive through something that's infallible, a teaching mechanism.

Speaker 3: 40:52

So sorry, getting a little off track, but the basis for the infallibility and the indefectibility of the church militant, which is the church on earth. And indefectibility means that the church will never fully fall away from the faith right Is the perfect establishment of the faith in heaven, in the church triumphant. And literally, as the church's fortunes wane on earth, let's say it's the times of the antichrist. I don't mean like right now, although maybe it will be, but let's just say those times the fortunes of the church will reach a nadir. At that point they will never be worse. And yet, at those very moments, the ranks of the church triumphant will never have been bigger. Yeah, because it will never have had more Christians, more souls, more martyrs. And Apocalypse 20 tells us, in verses four through six, what these people are doing they are reigning with Christ, they are reigning with Christ, they are reigning with Christ. And then the church triumphant reunites with earth and there's a new heaven and a new earth, right? So what we're talking about, of Christendom as the Christian form, as it were.

Speaker 3: 42:00

When it comes to politics, we need to recognize that all politics, this side of eternity has a sort of contingent nature to it. Right, it's based on eternally valid principles like the common good and justice and things like that. But all politics before the return of Christ is contingent. The church is not contingent. It's perfectly established in heaven and Christ has guaranteed its fortunes on earth, but not in a temporal sense, right? So even when the church is losing, it's winning because, as her saints are being slaughtered, they're going to the perfectly established church in heaven, from which they can never be brought down again. Okay, so I think that dynamic is something that needs to be kept in mind.

Speaker 1: 42:43

Okay, so that's that. I think that dynamic is something that needs to be kept in mind. Yeah, Well, and the thing is seeing the church lose on earth the way it is now, and then the nations turning their back on God man. I don't know, because we do have to get into eschatology, but I guess we'll skip the Aaron McIntyre thing and maybe we'll just go right into Adam King.

Speaker 3: 43:11

I mean we can cover both. We can make the Aaron McIntyre thing quick. I had a good exchange with him, as well as with Joel Berry.

Speaker 1: 43:18

Yeah, well, it does kind of tie into this. So, all right, so let's see. Okay, so let me pull your tweet up. Let's see um you had said um, what wait? Should I play the clip of aaron?

Speaker 5: 43:34

sure it's short okay, it's muted we're not allowed to have students actually look at any kind of primary sources anymore, because one of the nasty things that happens when you look at old books that were written before, say, 1945, is you determine that the world is actually very different and that there's something very radical and modern that's happened. That's why we don't read primary sources, because then we might actually know some history we're not allowed to have.

Speaker 3: 43:58

Okay, so the context was you're talking about george washington and american foreign policy and how many people today who we, you know, characterize as war hawks or neocons or whatever?

Speaker 3: 44:10

Um, we'll talk about america having some sort of obligation to go around the world by the force of arms and and spread liberty or defend liberty or whatever, and that this is part of our american values.

Speaker 3: 44:21

And so his point was that when you read pre-1945, you know pre-World War II sources, and he was particularly talking about George Washington's farewell address, which is a really amazing document in many ways that it really says quite the opposite that we need to not entangle ourselves in foreign alliances. And you know, if people want to look it up, there's an amazing speech of John Quincy Adams when he was in Congress talking about it's been a long time since I've read it, but he said something like, basically, if America goes abroad to chase villains, it'll, it'll, it'll, it'll become an empire and it'll it'll completely degrade. He says it's so much better, but it's a really moving way. So that's part of the actual American tradition. My point to him and he was saying you find this out by reading original sources my point to him to affirm what you're saying, because I know are, is it? I've always thought it was our on. I thought it was kind of like a cool oh, maybe maybe I'm wrong.

Speaker 3: 45:15

Maybe you could be wrong. I'm sure you could be right. I always I chose to interpret it most charitably, therefore, as a lord of the ring style name. He's alron of the blaze or something. Um, we'll just say aaron, I guess. But um, I know he's a protestant guy. He says a lot of things I agree with I. I want to give aaron a lot of credit and I hope we get to talk more, and he and I had a very good and charitable exchange because he says a lot of things that we as catholics can agree with. That. You know. He knows religion is not subjective or whatnot. I don't know how you remain Protestant in that framework, but he says a lot of good things. I'll just leave it at that.

Speaker 3: 45:52

So my point to him was that, yes, I affirm the use of original sources, and he was saying from the original sources you can find out what true American values are. My point to him was well, going to original sources and I studied the founding fathers, I wrote several books on them. I wrote a book on the founding fathers with a thousand footnotes, all to original sources. I have a whole bookshelf in my library of just their writing. So I've read tons and tons of the founding fathers. Then I went to the church fathers and discovered, as he talked about. He said you find something you really didn't expect to find. I found that out about my Christian faith. It simply wasn't what I thought it was, and so and so, um, now it's interesting.

Speaker 3: 46:32

People like Aaron and others, um, uh, they, they seem to think that Protestantism provides, provides, because it was so influential at the, you know, sort of constitutional founding of the 13 colonies becoming 13 states, becoming the United States, that it's somehow forever obligatory to, to keep it as part of the American system. And I think that's silly, you know. It's like the Romans saying you know, we need to keep. Oh, who is the Roman king who instituted the Numa? I think it was Numa N-U-M-A.

Speaker 3: 47:10

If you read the history of Rome by Livy, he talks about this Roman king prior to Tarchinus, or Tarchin I'm sorry, tarchin Superbus, who was the last Roman king they expelled. And then the Romans say we're against monarchy, but then they had emperors expanding a multi-continent empire. It's very strange, but Numa was the one who instituted the religious rights of Rome. And so it'd be like a Roman saying, well, this was so key to the Roman constitution, we're never going to go to Christianity, we're never going to go to the Catholic faith. It's just kind of silly. It's like well, can we analyze this American tradition in light of the original sources that preceded by? You know, I don't know, 1700 years, you know, and then some, of course, but yeah, yeah, yeah, so he, he.

Speaker 1: 47:58

he said I appreciate this, but America is Protestant. As a Protestant nation, Catholics are my brothers in Christ, but their sect has been a foreign religion to many of us. So he took it to First off. There's no unified Protestant sect in America. Anyway, it's completely disunified. But you weren't. What I took from your point was not that America is a Catholic nation. You were saying no, no, no. You studied the original sources of America and you're finding that it's completely different. Go back and study the original sources of Christianity and you'll find something very different than you think you know.

Speaker 3: 48:33

I was suggesting he adopt the same means to arrive at his conclusions about what is genuinely American, to find out what is genuinely Christian. Yeah, that's what I was basically saying.

Speaker 1: 48:45

Yeah, that's what I was based. Yes, that's what. That's what that's how I said. I said, yeah, I cause I responded to him. I said I just don't think that's what Josh is getting out of here, but yeah, yeah. All right. So I want to play Adam King real quick, because the whole thing, oh it's a, I mean well, the creepiest line is at the end.

Speaker 3: 49:03

The creepiest line is, like, I think, the last minute or 30 seconds. Okay, let's.

Speaker 1: 49:13

So I basically what happened.

Speaker 3: 49:14

If he goes through explaining how the protest, how the Jews actually did sacrifice a red heifer right and he has some of the soot and he says there's his up in there and he talks about how there were talks about how there were talks about how there were miracles that happened and stuff like that, which is really creepy.

Speaker 2: 49:29

So let's, let's go from here, we'll see what happens lived in his home for over 20 years before he never left. Nope, because he was really quick ritual yeah, the priest he's talking.

Speaker 3: 49:42

he's saying there's this priest, apparently, who did this who must be from the Levitical line Right If he's to be a valid Jewish priest was lived on his own and his house on his own to be prepared for this very ritual. So I don't know who this guy is, but that's what. That's who he's talking about right now.

Speaker 1: 50:01

So Adam King, I'll remind everybody also, was on a debate on Gavin McInnes' network and somebody had asked him because they were discussing Islam and Jews, and somebody asked him I think Gavin asked him if you could get rid of one religion. Vincent James asked him Okay yeah, he said if you could get rid of one religion, what would it be? Him, okay, yeah, he said what if you could get rid of one religion? What would it be? And adam king said catholicism, like just so matter-of-factly, no, no sorry, you're getting a little bit wrong.

Speaker 3: 50:33

You're almost right. He asked him between, uh, catholicism and islam. If you had to pick one religion to destroy, which would it be? And he and adam king said, like with a sort of obviousness catholicism oh, catholicism, yeah, and gavin mckinnis, who is on his team, was like what, yeah, he couldn't believe it.

Speaker 1: 50:51

He's like you're fighting the muslims over there, the muslims are the one destroying everything. Yeah, you just don't, because I don't think people understand the enmity that has built up over 2 000 years between jews and christians. That is it. It's nothing like the enmity between Jews and Muslims. It's just a totally different thing. So, yeah, he's talking about this Levitical priest who has never left his home and he's been basically groomed to be the priest who can offer this sacrifice of the red heifer.

Speaker 2: 51:22

And now it's been done. Uh, the messiah can come okay, so this is. You're talking about the return of the turn up the mac, here we go so?

Speaker 1: 51:34

so this is. This is like the. The jewish messiah is going to come back. Would that be similar? Would that be like the return of christ, or it would it? Would it be a different? Here's the thing.

Speaker 2: 51:45

The I think, the most fundamental difference between Judaism and Christianity is that Judaism actually believes in reincarnation and so the Messiah is here in every generation, and there's a process by which we are awakened enough to accept the Messiah. So if the Messiah doesn't come, he dies, he's reconstituted, born into the matrix again and has to find his way back to another thing. We can't build the temple until this happened, and now that this happened, the messiah can come build the third temple in jerusalem.

Speaker 1: 52:22

this was a big that is creepy look this is been warning people this is um oof, okay, so I didn't know that. It's just magic. In other words, they think so. They think the spirit of messiah is always around and once the Jewish people have prepared the way for him properly, he could just come about at any time.

Speaker 3: 52:51

Well, let me say I just, I mean, if Jews believe in reincarnation, that's that's news to me. But let's say, let's just assume he's right I would disagree. I mean that would that would be a huge difference with Christianity, of course, if that's indeed true would disagree. I, I mean that would that would be a huge difference with christianity, of course, if that's indeed true. But, um, I, I've actually thought about this. What is the fundamental difference in judaism and christianity? And obviously christ, but but like, what is the difference about christ?

Speaker 3: 53:15

Ultimately, there's many, many things, but I think one of the one of the ways it could be summarized is this if you're a jew, you don't believe that your human nature must be regenerated to obey the law.

Speaker 3: 53:29

Yeah, if you're a Christian, you do. You believe that you must receive the grace of God, which is the divine life of the Holy Trinity in your soul, in order to behave in a way that is pleasing to him. That's essentially it. And then, of course, the incarnation is the means and the passion is the way, and how this is all made possible is in the details, so to speak, but I think that is the fundamental issue. I mean, jeremiah prophesied that the new covenant would be very different from the old one and that, instead of writing the law on stone, it'd write it on the tablet of our hearts. That that was the essence of the new covenant, that you would have to receive God into your soul in order to be able to please God. And, unfortunately, the Jews actually believe that their human nature doesn't require regeneration, it just requires working harder. We, as Catholics, completely disagree with that.

Speaker 1: 54:29

Yeah, I see things like that happening. I see the dispensationalists calling for the building of the Third Temple. I see the church at its weakest moment in its history. I see the changes in its liturgy and its practices. I see the nations no longer submitting themselves to the spiritual but putting the temporal, putting themselves over the spiritual, and I don't see how this isn't. I don't see this as a type of something. I see this as building up to a crescendo and I don't see how anybody Building up is a crescendo.

Speaker 3: 55:17

Sorry, I'm a musician, I was a little redundant, all right. I'm kidding. I'm going to drop out, settle down. I had to take advantage.

Speaker 1: 55:25

I'm like we are, by the way, alert tautology alert we are going to get the comments in a few minutes. And then I got.

Speaker 3: 55:32

I got something special for a blazing hot right now and I so want to look at them, but out of respect for you, which is very uncharacteristic of our relationship I am not looking at them, so I mean you.

Speaker 1: 55:43

You've talked a lot about um, uh, because somebody was asking before, is joe biden catholic? And you've talked a lot about the catacomb. You've talked a lot about ticonius I don't know publicly. Yeah, um, can we, can we touch on that? Can we touch on that for a bit on on ticonius's view of the end times and and the body of the devil and the body of christ kind of intermingling together? Do you have that fresh in your memory still, or has it been so long? It's been a while since I've reviewed Tychonius.

Speaker 3: 56:12

But I know that I mean the basic, the basis of. Well, let me read a quote I pulled up. This is on one of the Eternal Christian Quote Archives Because this in many ways summarizes my view about what the catechon is and just for a refresher for people the catechon is the restrainer in Second Thessalonians 2 that holds back the coming of Antichrist. We've talked about this a lot and I know that probably some of the audience. So this is actually a quote. I'm not sure I've shared it with you guys, it's a relative. I found it relatively recently. I've shared it with you privately, I think.

Speaker 3: 56:41

But St Bruno of Cologne, the founder of the Carthusians, I believe he's writing. He was born about 1030, died 1101. So you know, almost a thousand years ago and he was talking about in his commentary on second Thessalonians. He said this is what he said, quote if he referring to Antichrist, if Antichrist would come into the world now, when the majority of people obey the Roman pontiff and when Christian kings thus far preserve the faith, he would have a beast to mount that was not ready and he would not be able to proceed on his way when there is such a decessio. I believe that refers to the apostasy, the great apostasy.

Speaker 3: 57:19

The faith will survive on the throne of Peter, even if only in a few. But the saints are said to have obtained the prayer of Christ when he said to Peter I have prayed for you, peter, that your faith may not fail. Going forward a bit, just this meaning Christian princes obeying the Pope and the priesthood, just this restrains Antichrist, that who now holds the Christian empire and the unity of the faith may hold this for so long until iniquity, which is now secret, may be taken from among the midst, that is, from among the community. That just as now, faith is in public and iniquity in secret, so in the time of Antichrist, faith may be in secret and iniquity in public, since his members will blush no more at acts of impurity than acts of purity, and those who have faith will be few.

Speaker 1: 58:09

So I do think you know that. Oh, I have to jump in there.

Speaker 3: 58:18

So that's essentially saying. So what year was that written? Well, there wasn't a date. I read it in a book on Antichrist and it had a citation, but it didn't say the exact date. But St Bruno was born about 1030 and died 1101. Okay, so at the at that time.

Speaker 1: 58:30

What you have is um, people would sin in, in in the dark and like sin was always around. But they would. They would be ashamed, know they would. They wouldn't want people to know.

Speaker 3: 58:44

But the times we live in now well, let me give a little color to that really quick, though, because he lived during the investiture controversy. So, just so people know what the investor controversy is. This was during the reign of um saint pope gregory the seventh, who? This is about the 10, 70s, 1080s or so. Um, this is the guy who supposedly authored Dictatus Popeye or Popeye, popeye, whatever Popeye you know. You know, sailor man, that the Orthodox bring up. It was never promulgated as a magisterial document, whatever.

Speaker 3: 59:14

But the issue he was dealing with was, in many places in the, in the church, lay rulers were basically selecting who the bishops would be and and he were basically selecting who the bishops would be, and he as a pope coming along, a very, very saintly pope, was like nope, this is coming to an end. And I believe he died in exile, because there was a famous scene with I believe it was Henry II, who was the Holy Roman Emperor, who was not yielding, and so Pope Gregory VII excommunicated him. And so Pope Gregory VII was at some castle in Northern Italy I believe, modern Northern Italy and Henry came to him and was kneeling in the snow for days, apparently begging absolution, and the Pope eventually granted it and Henry went back, but then he started doing the same old stuff, and I believe Gregory VII died in exile. I'd have to double check, but he didn't die in a good state. So, as chaotic as even that world was, st Bruno considered that situation one in which temporal powers generally acknowledged the authority of the priesthood you know, and it's, it's.

Speaker 1: 1:00:27

It's one, the temporal authorities, but two the. The way he describes faith is in the light and sin is in the darkness. But there will come a time when sin is in the light and faith is in the darkness. I don't see how that's not now. I mean you, the people pride month, right, the this, this blaring of people's sin with pride and calling evil good. It's so insane what we're living in today and then to even have, in the past decade, have the church even flirting with some of this stuff was. I mean, I just don't see how that's not adding to all of this.

Speaker 3: 1:01:08

But well, let's talk about the more insidious element of that, though, because I agree with you, but let's talk about how it's among our ranks, because the the thing with arn. I dr larry arn's a good man. I think he's doing a lot of good work, he's teaching, and actually we did a great rosary campaign I think it was last year, it may have been earlier this year praying for Hillsdale, because I've been hearing it's becoming like a Catholic conversion factory. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:01:32

I even know some students there, because what are they doing? They're diving into the sources of.

Speaker 3: 1:01:36

Western civilization Well, not just the church fathers, but just Western civilization. And you're realizing, before Protestantismism it's so profoundly catholic, so it's like were all of our ancestors just completely wrong until luther came around, came along or or at least substantially wrong enough to split the church into a million pieces? You know it's, and so that that of course isn't an untenable and I know different protestants would have their different. You know explanations, whatever, um, whatever, but that's the general summary.

Speaker 3: 1:02:08

But yeah, so we have this very, very insidious idea that there can't even be Christian nations, as he says, despite Christ telling the apostles teach the nations, baptize the nations to obey and the old testament this is among the verses brought up by saint augustine and many other fathers that they believe that in their day, meaning not just when they were alive personally, but in the centuries leading up, and in that general time frame, the prophecies of messiah slaying idolatry and slaying the gods of the nations was being fulfilled. Eusebius talks about it, saint athanasius talks about it in the incarnation of the nations was being fulfilled. Eusebius talks about it, st Athanasius talks about it in the incarnation of the divine word, st.

Speaker 3: 1:02:50

Augustine talks about it all the time. If people want to see an amazing summary of this from St Augustine, look at the introduction, the first book of the Harmony of the Gospels. Amazing. He's basically saying to the Jews and to the pagans look, the Jews are among the enemies of the church. Their own scriptures talk about this. And he says to the pagans your temples are empty, nobody worships the gods anymore and Christian altars are rising everywhere.

Speaker 3: 1:03:17

Eusebius of Caesarea said all the oracles are going silent, meaning that the demons, who priests and pagan kings and whatever would go to inquire of you, know that they're going silent. There's some incredible stories about this, but but so they see this as a fulfillment. But but we have a lot of this these insidious ideas about liberty of conscience not being defined in a Catholic way but in a libertarian way, of just liberty of conscience not being defined in a catholic way but in a libertarian way, of just liberty of conscience is I have this bubble around me and I have a right to do, to choose whatever I want within that bubble, regardless of the objective content of the choice. You know, many christians believe this. Many christians believe that the, that the temporal power is actually in terms of who must be obeyed. Many christians believe that the temporal power is actually in terms of who must be obeyed. Many Christians believe that the temporal power is the highest power. They don't believe you have to obey the priesthood of Jesus Christ. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:04:14

So if you believe in separation of church and state in the way most modern people do? You essentially believe that the highest power on earth is the temporal power, is the secular state instead of the priesthood. You know so so many of these power on earth is the temporal power, is the secular state instead of the priesthood. You know so so many of these, many of these errors related to the falling away that that that have literally brought about the very scenario saint bruno said would precede the coming of antichrist, didn't come from secular people. They came from christians.

Speaker 1: 1:04:41

Yeah, they came from christians dividing and separating and having different altars and eventually having no altars at all bobby says uh, they can't have a christian nation because catholicism is what integrates into the state. A hierarchical christianity with real authority looks too much like catholicism for them. Of course, yeah, um and again this is not a utopian solution.

Speaker 3: 1:05:03

This is part of the, I believe know St Bruno describes this as a restraint on wickedness. It doesn't describe it as the destroyer of wickedness, right? And if you go to Apocalypse 20, I believe Apocalypse 20, I think this is very consistent with patristic reading. St Thomas Aquinas, whatever, apocalypse 20 is a grand outline of history, from the incarnation to the return of christ. That's what it is. And so the first part is that the dragon is bound. He is not thrown into hell. That happens in the third section, right, he? But he's initially thrown into a pit. Right, he's bound, but then he's bound.

Speaker 3: 1:05:43

Thrones are set up for those to whom judgment is committed. That's the wording of verse four, and it talks about those who resisted the mark of the beast. So, apparently, this mark of the beast can be resisted. This beast can be resisted even during the period of the thrones. But then it says the dragon is released and he rallies Gog and Magog against the city of God, essentially the church. But then Christ returns, he's judged and he's thrown into hell. He's thrown into the fire, right? So the condemnation that Satan has yet to receive is far greater than the binding he has received already. Just to be clear.

Speaker 1: 1:06:17

Yeah, and during that binding is when you see the spreading of God's spirit over the earth and you see the Christian altars being erected throughout the earth while Satan is binded. But what we're seeing now is something like the keys to the abyss being opened up and the demons are being released and there's tons of stars falling from heaven because of all of our bishops are not doing what they're supposed to do. I mean, I. It is the apocalypse unfolding before us is all I'm saying. It's something apocalyptic.

Speaker 3: 1:06:48

At the very least, at the I I I agree with you know my thoughts I agree, yeah I, I just, I just don't see how we're not in the.

Speaker 1: 1:06:57

I think, when you take into account that the jews are coming back to jerusalem and that they're, they're, you know, they're, they're essentially drunk on the blood of the martyrs and they're, they're mixing with the nations the way they are, and I mean, I, that's just where I'm at. So all right, well, let's jump to comments. Josh, turn on your public comments.

Speaker 3: 1:07:21

No boy we're gonna hit super chats first. We we barely got into depth on the third temple thing. Well, do you want to do that before we go to comments?

Speaker 1: 1:07:29

We can do that on local Well we can a little bit.

Speaker 3: 1:07:31

I mean, I want people to know that there actually was an attempt to rebuild the third temple. Well, by the way, the third temple already has been rebuilt. It was rebuilt when Christ rose from the dead and it has existed for 2 000 years and it's in heaven, on in purgatory and on earth, and it is the catholic church. It is the temple in which right worship is offered. And um, scott hon, you, I had seen either you or somebody else had raised a question. I saw it earlier. I thought I saw it earlier today on twitter. Maybe you text me, I'm forgetting where I saw it. There's so many streams of information about the um, the idea that the temple, that the dome of the rock, that the rock was covering a sort of gateway into hades or sheol, right was. It. Was that you?

Speaker 3: 1:08:19

who brought that up with me but there is a rabbinic tradition about that. I need to find where it is, but dr brant petrie's talked about it, dr scott hahn has talked about it. I believe it's called the ebon, something like that. I'm not. I'm not claiming I'm pronouncing the hebrew correctly, but yes, the idea was that the temple stood over this rock that kept the gates of hades closed. So when, p when jesus appoints peter, he does it at cesarea philippi, which is, if you've been there, it's another rock with an apparent opening into the underworld for this pagan god.

Speaker 1: 1:08:55

They worship the god pan. Yes, and then it isn't. It doesn't like the jordan flow from there and they called it the gates of hell, right?

Speaker 3: 1:09:04

I'd have to double check I've been there the last time I was there was 2013. Yeah, the rock at caesarea, philippi.

Speaker 1: 1:09:10

They there's like it's. They called it the gates of hell in the ancient world. Yeah, so when jesus is telling that to peter, it's not just some comment he's throwing away. He takes them to the gates of hell. Yeah, takes peter to caesarea philippi to to the gates of hell and he says the gates of hell will not, will not overcome and with the jewish tradition of the ebon shatia, something like that.

Speaker 3: 1:09:33

So, so, um. But yeah, there was an attempt by a pagan apostate catholic to I say he was pagan because he, he came to espouse paganism. He basically went to all the pagan priests and come back to the temples. You'll get state money again. There's something about it's kind of like there are certain things built into nature. It's as if, like reality itself is built into temporal and spiritual, and Satan knows he needs the spiritual power. Basically, what scripture and the fathers describe about antichrist is he is the ultimate temporal ruler who subordinates spiritual things to himself, which is why I think I I I put on X earlier today that Satan needed the separation of the state from the church, or, more traditionally, the temporal from the priesthood, in order to prepare the way for antichrist. That's what I think the game was. So julian, julian the apostate, this is 380 363. He's an almost perfect picture of what many fathers believe and I personally believe antichrist is most likely to do so. He's trying to revive paganism, but while he's doing it, he goes to the jews and he says why are you not offering sacrifice? And the jews say our law says we can only offer sacrifice in one place, namely Jerusalem, and the Torah didn't? It kind of developed, of course, but it was Jerusalem, and we can't do that because the temple has been destroyed. So Julian offers to help them rebuild the temple and they accept Now some of the Christian sources.

Speaker 3: 1:11:04

There's at least two pagan sources for this Julian himself and a pagan named Ammianus Marcellinus. I believe I put this on an article. We did a podcast about it. I haven't seen somebody put all the historical sources that mentioned this event in one place, so the podcast was about an hour 20 minutes. The whole article is, I think, like 9,000 words or something, but it's an extremely useful resource. All the footnotes are there. I think I have like nine christian sources, and many of the christian resources or sources, rather, give the jews like the benefit of the doubt, because they were saying that julian was basically trying to get the jews. He was trying to like soft pedal them into worship of idols right, yeah, and that he would get them along that path by giving them the prospect of rebuilding the temple.

Speaker 3: 1:11:49

So they accept and work, get started, they get the workers, and so what do they first have to do? They have to clear away the rubble on the temple mount. Well, apparently, when they go to do this, the the sources broadly agree on this. There was some sort of fiery explosion from the ground. Some even say that it threw big rocks all over the place, you know, maiming people's bodies, killing some people, apparently. And a number of the sources say that the next night, oh, there was a great earthquake as well. Many of them say there was a storm and that the following night a giant sign of the cross appeared in the sky and that the sign of the cross and stars appeared on the clothing of the workers and everybody was completely freaked out and the project was abandoned. I think it was Gregory Notzianza said sorry, there were earthquakes.

Speaker 1: 1:12:38

Every time they tried to build the foundation, something would happen, and they were never able to.

Speaker 3: 1:12:43

Now here's another interesting detail I provide in there because it's not a direct source for this event, but it's very interesting. So the Bishop of Jerusalem at the time was St Cyril of Jerusalem, and many converts from Protestantism who came into the fathers, like myself, that may sound very familiar because he delivered a set of catechetical lectures that are just extraordinary, very, very Catholic, and I read them. I was like oh my gosh. And he delivered them about 350, so about 13 years before this event happened, and it was very interesting. I'm forgetting which source I don't have it in front of me but one of the Christian sources mentioned that the bishop at that time 363, when Julian tries this, 13 years later was St Cyril, and that St Cyril had told people this won't work, this won't happen. And he based it off two places in scripture our Lord's words that not one stone will be left upon another, which he took to be a prophecy that it would remain that way forever, and then a verse in Daniel, I believe 927.

Speaker 3: 1:13:43

I have to explore a little bit the translations of Daniel because they seem to vary widely Daniel 7, I'm sorry, daniel 9, this prophecy of the 70 weeks. Some of the language is very, very different, but many fathers understood Daniel 927 to be a prophecy that the desolation of the temple would continue to the end of time, and so that's what they believe. So, based on those two prophecies one in Daniel, one from our Lord, st Cyril of Jerusalem said this will never happen, and he was right, at least for that time. So then the question becomes well and many fathers identified this as blatantly antichristic that Julian wanted, they say, julian wanted to do this to disprove that Christ was Messiah. That was his purpose to disprove that christ was messiah. That was his purpose to disprove these prophecies. Well, and then, very shortly after he died, on campaign in persia and he was like in his early 30s, I think so this and he was, ironically, probably about 33 I'd have to double check, but he was maybe about 33, which is around how old our lord was when he was crucified.

Speaker 1: 1:14:43

So kind of ironic, uh there's so many stories like that that are interesting, even even with the destruction of the temple. In 70 ad you have titus is the one who, who, like, leads the legion in to destroy the temple. And then titus becomes emperor and he's having all of these dreams about burning to death and he, like, he's just having these feverish dreams and he's waking up in a sweat because he, he, thinks you know that they're telling him you destroyed god's temple, you're gonna die from it, and he's having these dreams of fever and then, freaking mouth of mouth uh, dubious mouth of suvius erupts and totally decimates pompeii. And it's like it's. There's just so many of these stories that just, and then titus winds up dying of a fever, like he dies of a fever, you know it's.

Speaker 3: 1:15:35

There's so many of these stories throughout history that are just I looked it up on wikipedia, julian the apostate was 31 or 32 when he died, so very, very close to and maybe our Lord was that. I mean, 33 is the traditional age. We don't, we don't have the exact dates in scripture, um, so yeah, anyway, but I I think this was a picture, a eerily similar picture, of what antichrist will do. So this is an interesting issue, because the fathers are not unanimous that antichrist will rebuild the temple. It does rebuild the temple. It does seem to be a strong majority opinion. Um, some say he will.

Speaker 3: 1:16:10

Cyril of jerusalem, uh, was it cyril? I'm forgetting, don't, I'm too tired right now. It's a strong opinion that some said he would. Saint john christian seems to believe that he would, but that he wouldn't succeed. So my personal opinion is that antichrist is going to float the prospect of building the third temple and we may get like right to the brink and then it'll become.

Speaker 3: 1:16:31

I believe my personal opinion is that the Jews who accept him as Messiah which are that's a unanimous patristic opinion, as far as I can tell that our Lord says you do not receive me because I don't come in my own name. There is one you will receive who will come in his own name. They all took this to be a reference to the Jews accepting antichrist initially, initially, and so I believe that he will offer this prospect of this is a likely thing. I'm not saying dogma, speaking from you know, the Mount, mount Olympus, or ex cathedra as it was, as it were, but um, but that he'll offer this prospect of rebuilding the third temple, uh, the Jewish third temple, um and uh.

Speaker 3: 1:17:11

And then there will be a key moment where it'll be clear that he will expect worship of himself, and I think many Jews will recognize that they've been had and there'll be something. Maybe it'll be the preaching of Enoch and Elias. There'll probably be multiple things, but many of them will realize we've been had. Christ was our Messiah. We missed him and, as Zechariah 14 talks about, they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and him whom they have pierced.

Speaker 3: 1:17:36

And I think there'll be like the most fiery converts ever and we'll light a fire under the ass of Gentile, lukewarm, gentile people in the final stages of the great apostasy.

Speaker 1: 1:17:47

It just seems so hard to see that because? Is it Because of the hostility towards Christ that they display? Now Look, at Paul.

Speaker 1: 1:18:00

What's that? Look at Paul, of course. Yeah, that's a good point. No, it's just the display of how the name of Christ even irks them. But it's going to get to a point where all hope seems lost for the church and then God's going to do some grand thing. That's just always how he's done it. So, okay, can I explain one thing? Sorry, because, yeah, okay, I was gonna have you, because this is this is a protestant asking do you believe in a little literal 1000 year reign of christ in the future?

Speaker 3: 1:18:37

no, absolutely no that is a not that is a non-catholic opinion. There were some early church fathers who did theorize about this, yes, but then it was pretty decisively rejected I think the thousand year reign was.

Speaker 1: 1:18:51

We're in it. Yeah, I think we're in it or we're.

Speaker 3: 1:18:54

Either we're we're either in verses four through six I believe we're either in at the tail end of verses four through six of apocalypse 20, or like getting right at verse seven, or maybe we're like at the early stages of verse 7, which is when the dragon is released that that's yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:19:08

So the thousand year reign is god's spirit covering the earth. The christian altar is being built and christ actually does rule the nations for over a thousand years. Doesn't have to be literal, but I mean for a thousands of 1500 years. 1600 years, christ rules the nations, and now we, 1600 years, christ rules the nations and now we're getting to a point where the nations no longer are subject to him. And that's where you're getting into the dragon being released and stuff like that.

Speaker 3: 1:19:33

So the point I want to make is that, yes, there is enmity from Jews. There's, I have stories about that. If people only knew some of the things I've experienced beyond the scenes that I will keep mostly private for now, just for stating basic Christian truth. So that is absolutely true and I think there are some Catholics who want to pretend this isn't real and I reject that. This does need to be spoken about and, frankly, I think there are Jews of good faith who are open to being honest about this. One of my, one of the things I appreciate about many of my Jewish friends is they they don't worship, being nice like Christians do, and and so you can have more honest conversations with some of them and it may result in the end of the friendship. That's not my desire, but it may. But I also think I think when we get to the point you know, we need to remember that there there's some Catholics who speak as if the Jews are totally outcast and they're completely done and da, da, da, da da. That's not quite true. The Jews are the only nation that God has promised will have a mass conversion. Yeah, god didn't promise that to the Chinese or the Anglos or the Germans or the Phoenicians or the Persians or the Russians or the Mongols or whatever. He didn't promise that. So there is.

Speaker 3: 1:20:50

The traditional doctrine of the church has always been that God will preserve the existence of the Jews, and among the reasons he preserves them is his genuine love for them, but a as a testimony to the world. That that's why the father so often pointed to the old testament and said this is being fulfilled and you can really really know it's true, because these are the scriptures of people who don't like the church. You know, yeah, and? And they are themselves taking the old testament wherever they go around the world, and then christian missionaries come up behind them in a way and say this has been fulfilled, it's in the church, here's the altar, come worship the Messiah, and so there will be a conversion. But we have to remember that there have been Catholics who've given Jews reason to hate Catholics. There have been genuine injuries done to Jews as well. There have been genuine injuries done by Jews to the church too. One of the things that was most surprising to me with the church fathers is, you know, I kind of had this idea as a Protestant that Jews are always the victims, and I discovered that was not the case. There were many times when many fathers, who themselves were, you know, white martyrs or red martyrs, were very clear that Jews were stirring up hatred against the church. So that's a real dynamic.

Speaker 3: 1:22:09

But the traditional policy of the church was that the Jews should be allowed to practice their religion freely. St Thomas Aquinas says this is a matter of divine law. Why? Because the Jews are responding to an actual revelation. It's pointing toward fulfillment and it has been fulfilled. So it's not salvific in that sense, but it is real.

Speaker 3: 1:22:33

And St Robert Bellarmine I'm forgetting where it was, but I remember reading this line, fascinating line. It just showed a difference between how a modern person thinks and how a pre-modern person thinks. But he said why is the church so much more harsh with heretics than with Jews? Pre-modern person thinks, but he said why is the church so much more harsh with heretics than with jews? And he said because jews are responding to an incomplete but nonetheless revealed religion, whereas heretics are making up their own religion, which that was an interesting comment. So that's the traditional policy. I mean the popes threatened with excommunication, christians who spread blood libels, christians who attacked jews, medieval popes, centuries of them, while luther was saying burn down the synagogues, murder them, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um the end of those saying they weren't 20th century liberals, right they?

Speaker 1: 1:23:19

weren't, they didn't believe in equal rights. Yeah, the end of the story has to be joseph uniting with his brothers, right. Like the end of the story has to be joseph uniting with his brothers, right, like the end of the story has to be the reconciliation of joseph and his brothers, right. So if you go back to the old testament, you read the story of joseph his brothers sell him into slavery and then he becomes the, you know, the prince of egypt and he winds up. But in the end the brothers are reconciled and that is what's going to happen in the end.

Speaker 1: 1:23:43

But in that meantime there's this enmity that's just built up, and what they're doing in Israel right now is very anti-Christ. I mean, just by definition, it is anti-Christ. They reject Christ. This whole idea of building a temple and offering sacrifice is a rejection of Christ as the new temple. It's a rejection as him come as the Messiah, them awaiting their Messiah, as a rejection of Christ. But there is something left for their part in the story, and that part is going to glorify God even more, because their conversion is actually going to display God's glory in and of itself.

Speaker 3: 1:24:23

A hundred percent yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:24:25

That's where.

Speaker 3: 1:24:27

I want to be somebody who, if my Jewish neighbors in danger of being unjustly persecuted, that I would lay down my life for them if need be, just like I hope I'd be a man who would do that for any of my neighbors. Cause that's what that's our Chris, that's what Christ did, yeah, like Christ died for these people, even while they were spitting on him and nailing him. I mean, it's just. The Catholic faith never ceases to amaze me with how truly radical it is, and God always wants to go a level deeper right.

Speaker 1: 1:24:57

Yeah, there's a caution in the persecution of the Jews. That's not how we do it as Catholics. As Catholics, we love them to the point of martyrdom, like to the point of willing to lay down our lives out of love for them and, you know, bring them the gospel and and stuff like that. So it's you will give more caveats than I will in a lot of respects to maybe, yeah, you'll, you'll give more caveats than I will. I I see that enmity as being built up as part of the story and them trying to overthrow christian civilization. I don't disagree with that. Yeah, I just think that's part of their role, because they're trying to. They're trying to bring about their messiah and they want to rule the world in the name of israel like no, no, I I'm not disagreeing with that.

Speaker 3: 1:25:47

In fact, in one of the previous shows I brought up a point. It was very subtle, or the implications of it were subtle, but I brought it up very purposely. I said that, in many ways, this issue going back to something we mentioned at the beginning of the stream, in many ways this issue was decided centuries ago because, again, what binds your society together? A spiritual covenant or a temporal covenant? Right, we've been under a natural covenant, a merely temporal covenant of the oath of citizenship to the constitution. Right, that's it. That's what binds us together, it's not baptism. So we have rejected, as a society in the West in general, has rejected the supernatural as a basis for social union, for social cohesion. So it's left with the natural, and we know the natural left to its own resources, under the state of original sin. And so, in many ways, the admission to completely equal citizenship of anybody, of any religion, is a manifestation of this rejection of the supernatural as a basis for, you know, a covenantal society. So, no, I don't, I don't necessarily disagree, you know it's not.

Speaker 1: 1:26:57

I think it's very much part of the story. It's not because we let them like dummies, it's because we are attached to sin 100. It is because we are attached to sin. That is right. It is because we are attached to sin so we can blame them and say we're stupid. No, no, no, no. It's our attachment to sin, it's our love of money, it's our love of lust. That is the seven deadly sins. This is how this happened and that's why you can't just pass all the blame off. You can't just say you're a victim of it. Yep, every one of us are. Yeah, we, we all have.

Speaker 1: 1:27:29

That doesn't mean they're not doing it. It just means you have a conscience, you have a relationship with God and you are called to follow God's law and you have the. You have the ability to not look at what you're looking at on the internet. I don't care who started it. You have the ability not to bury yourself into usury. Now I understand. The cultural collapse we're enduring has a very big part. It goes back to even the open borders thing. I think that is a very Jewish plot. I mean, I know you would probably say, well, there's no proof of that, but that's just what I see.

Speaker 3: 1:28:02

No, don't misread. No, no, I'm just saying I haven't researched it enough.

Speaker 3: 1:28:07

Yeah, I simply haven't researched enough and, frankly, like I'm 37 years old but I've always been an old soul, I have felt since I was high school that if god came down in a cloud and said you have, you're gonna live to a hundred, I've always felt that I had little time. And these guys behind here and what they talk about, the spiritual life, these are the fathers, these are the sources of our faith. There's many others throughout where I live, the. That's my focus. And, yes, there's an. There's a jewish and church relationship as far. We've talked about that a lot.

Speaker 3: 1:28:36

You know, I've had some people get upset with me about well, or josh, you're gonna say the jews did. I haven't researched it enough, do I do? I think israel could have done that? Course they could have done it. Of course they could have done it. If they did do it and somebody showed me ironclad proof that they did it, would I be shocked? No, no, I wouldn't. But guess what? That takes time and energy for me to go through and verify it, because I hear all sorts of shoddy, unbacked up, unsourced claims all the time and I have better things to do for my sake and for other people's sake.

Speaker 1: 1:29:04

Frankly, I do think it's interesting that the patriarch of Jerusalem came out saying that Satan wants to set up his kingdom in the place where Jesus walked, which sounds an awful lot like Father Maudsley saying Israel is Satan's kingdom.

Speaker 3: 1:29:17

Well, it's very typological. It's very typological and the thing I'll say to reinforce what you were saying as far as I'm aware, the church's teaching and the unanimous witness of the fathers is that the Jews will initially accept Antichrist and then there will be a mass conversion, but this is preceded by the apostasy of the Gentiles. The Gentiles so as a whole, right before Jesus comes back, the Gentiles are apostate and the Jews are accepting Antichrist. So let's remember St Paul's admonition Do not grow prideful against them, do not get puffed up, don't do it. Don't do it because, just as they were cut off for infidelity, guess what Pride cuts you off from the divine life? Don't do it.

Speaker 1: 1:30:09

Yeah, it's an interesting conversation to have, because and I always do try to be careful with it because to me this is such a I don't know, I just I I can't separate it from the story and I can't separate it from the theology of it. I don't actually care about the conspiracy stuff. That's not. That's not actually what I look at it from. I look at it from the standpoint of this is the story that God already told from before. We know how it finishes, but I do think that Israel and the Jews will be who persecute the church in the end times.

Speaker 3: 1:30:49

The state of Israel.

Speaker 1: 1:30:50

Yeah, I think they will be. Who persecutes the church in the end times? The state of Israel? Yeah, yeah, I think I think they will be. Who persecutes the church in the end times? They will, you know they will. There will be martyrs and and that come about because of their persecution. I think that they, just like they were in the first century, they are going to be the whore of Babylon in the end times. It's a but. It's not any animosity towards them, it's just the way God has given us the story Look Jesus' parable of the tenant.

Speaker 3: 1:31:17

He says the tenants, I sent my messengers and they killed the messengers. Those are the prophets he says I sent my son, thinking they couldn't possibly kill my son. They killed my son. And then he talks about the king coming and says bring those here before me and slay them. And then he destroyed their city and their temple or house, I forget exactly, but it's like Jesus is really intense about this. Yeah, jesus, when you compile all the scriptures about you know it says that the Pharisees understood exactly what he was saying. He was saying that when Jesus is talking about first and last, there's many applications to it. When Jesus is talking about first and last, there's many applications to it, but almost.

Speaker 4: 1:31:58

I mean not almost certainly one of the applications is that I mean the spirit of Jonah had not left many Jews.

Speaker 1: 1:32:03

I never actually put that together.

Speaker 3: 1:32:04

They're not happy about it going to the Gentiles.

Speaker 1: 1:32:05

I never put that together, that the first will be last and the last will be first. I always look at that as a parable about humility.

Speaker 3: 1:32:12

but no, that's part of it, sure, but it's almost always about speaking to the Jewish leadership and saying he says that right, the kingdom will be taken from you and given to another nation producing the fruits thereof. He says it openly, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:32:30

Yeah, almost every parable that Jesus tells has a double meaning, and one is about the moral life and the other is about the Jews and the Gentiles.

Speaker 3: 1:32:42

Like almost every single parable, Well, at least four meanings, right Cause the four layers for yeah. So I know what you mean. Yeah, it's like. It's like.

Speaker 1: 1:32:50

Yeah, you have you have this, this moral, this moral thing that's happening. But then you also it's so, it's so in depth when you go back and read those parables over and have that in view, because so many of us have read the gospels and you think, oh, I've read the gospel, I already know. No, you don't, you have to go back and reread it. And then you have like a new lens to view it through and you see the double, triple and quadruple meanings of each thing.

Speaker 3: 1:33:15

And so I think a type of the apostasy and the catacomb no longer restraining, and we talked about Satan being bound or whatever. I, you and I have talked about this before. I I've never heard anybody make this point, but maybe they have. I don't know. I'm not claiming, I just I haven't seen it. But I do think one of the types of this is when jesus talks about the binding of the strong man so that his goods can be plundered. That's the elect being, you know, the goods being plundered, or the elect from all the corners of the world, and then, but then he says the strong man comes back with seven more demons. Yeah, and that kind of echoes the language of hebrews that talks about somebody who's received the faith and then rejects. It is far worse afterward. So that's why an apostate civilization is way worse than a pagan civilization. Way worse, yeah for sure.

Speaker 1: 1:33:58

Like us as Christian nations who rejected God, the sins will return. I've experienced that in my personal life when I left the sacraments for a period. Like the sins that popped up in my life during that period I never thought I would be capable of committing, and it's like that. Actually, that period is what showed me how real the sacraments are, because I saw things in myself that I never thought were possible. I'm like, wow, how am I acting like this, how am I doing this? And then, as soon as I get back to the sacraments, it's the stability that returned to my life. At that time it was just unbelievable. All right, do you want to go to comments?

Speaker 3: 1:34:35

Let me make one more point I was excited to make Last time.

Speaker 1: 1:34:38

I couldn't get you off the comments. Tonight we had a good conversation.

Speaker 3: 1:34:41

I know I was agreeing with what you were saying, but I was excited to make this point because somebody asked recently and I've heard converts to the catholic faith generally tend to be thankful for a number of things in their protestant background. Not always um, but um, but but uh. Protestants who came from the catholic church always, almost always, seem to be filled with this vitriol. I think it's simply because one is progressing toward the fullness of truth and one's falling away from it, and and because of this apostate dynamic, yeah, so, yeah, that's a good point yeah, it's generally people who were not catechized as catholics as cradles, become protestant, and then protestants who study christianity and want to go deeper become catholic.

Speaker 3: 1:35:25

It's, it's, so let's also recognize that's a crime and a sin for these catholics to be so poorly catechized. At some point it is on you because you're an adult and we've got the internet and radio and TV and all that, but yeah, it's a. It's a crime that what's happened.

Speaker 2: 1:35:39

So anyway, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:35:40

I've got about 20 minutes before I have my weekly?

Speaker 1: 1:35:42

Yeah, all right, so we'll jump to comments. It's not going to be a local show tonight, guys, gosh, um, all right, so we'll start with the um, with the super chats. Okay, there's also the slightly gnostic strain of spirit equals good and flesh equals bad. He was talking about, uh, protestantism before bobby again, uh, protestants have no concept of theosis and leave no room for redemption of the physical world. I don't know what they think the purpose of the incarnation even was I, I don't agree with that.

Speaker 3: 1:36:09

I I mean, I look, I think many Protestants fall into that category. I would say there are some Protestants of the higher church variety who have fairly robust ideas of this. What I would say is that Protestantism of all kinds does not take the logic of the incarnation to its fullest extent, because if the incarnation is divinity assuming a body and this body is identified as the church, then that church partakes of the invincibility of that body. And there's no form of protestantism that recognizes an invincible church. The highest form would be the, the anglicans, but they say, oh no, at some point it it became, it became tenable that it went into three separate branches, which hardly is an invincible church so yeah, there's a tendency for me especially, I generalize when I'm talking about.

Speaker 1: 1:36:56

When I say protestant, I'm generally talking about evangelicals, like that's just.

Speaker 3: 1:37:00

I would say evangelicals, then yeah, like I I'm generally.

Speaker 1: 1:37:03

When I say protestant, I'm generally talking about american evangelicals. Um, I'm really going to encourage everybody to take tomorrow's fast seriously. Yep, um, I, I am taking it very seriously. My wife is taking it very seriously. I think it's a very important thing to do tomorrow. So, um, we should be abstaining every friday, but tomorrow's a day of fasting. So, yeah, pope asks us to do it, let's do it. Um, josh, what did you think about the saints as a protestant? How did josh change his view on the saints and who are Josh's favorite saints?

Speaker 3: 1:37:33

So I have sort of souped up my rosary. That sounds arrogant, I don't mean it that way, but I've customized my rosary so that between each mystery, I'm constantly asking my to make it a habit to call for the prayers of my guardian angel, my patron saint, our lady, et cetera. So I'll just I won't limit it to five, I'll just say the saints that are currently and these have been pretty consistent uh, guardian angel, of course, but I don't know the name of that angel. Uh, my patron saint saying nations of antioch, saying nations the red pills. I affectionately call him um, uh, uh.

Speaker 3: 1:38:06

St maximilian colby I visited his cell in auschwitz right before, right when I got back from ukraine. Uh, because to go to uk these days you have to start in Poland. So I visited Auschwitz as well, visited his cell, very moving, and right when I came back, our founding patron came to me and said I want to help get what would eventually became Eternal Christen. Don't think that was a coincidence That'd be another discussion, because Maximilian Kolbe, you know, talked a lot about Zionism, but he was also willing to die for it. Anyway, so, st Therese of Lisieux, st Junipero Serra, because he's a patron saint of California and I live in California. Native Californian family friends here, most of them St Francis de Sales, because of his work with helping convert Protestants St Augustine, st Thomas Aquinas Occasionally I'll throw in St Bruno and St Dominic for assistance with my own vocation discernment, you can see where I kind of lean toward our lady of sorrows.

Speaker 3: 1:39:02

So yeah, I think it's a little bit more than five. But yeah, and how did I view the saints? I don't know. I I didn't dive into it very much. That's the thing is. Like most Protestants not all in my experience most protestants, myself included, are locked up in a last 500 years world. There's lip service to certain people and certain people come up saint augustine, whatever but the vast majority of the theologians you're reading in a protestant seminary or whatnot are 500 years or younger. Yeah, that's just your world. So you know can I?

Speaker 1: 1:39:36

can I share an insight I've had into the saints in the past few years?

Speaker 1: 1:39:39

regulars of the show have heard me say this, but some something struck me about when I was praying one time, about like the family of God and how, how we as Christians are the family of God and that God wants us to know our older siblings right, and the reason he grants little favors to us through their intercession is so that we develop a relationship with them Like when.

Speaker 1: 1:40:02

So when you're, when you're, when you read this, when you read scripture, you fall in love with Jesus. When you pray the rosary, you fall in love with our lady. When you read a book about one of the saints who have come before us, you fall in love with your older sibling, somebody who came before you. And I think that God wants us to have these deep connections to the body of Christ, not just the people in your everyday life, but he wants us to have these deep connections to our older brothers and sisters, who are the ones who came before us and handed the faith down to us. And I really started to see in all the saints that I was developing a devotion to. I saw how each one of them had a unique insight into the life of Christ, but none of them fully embodied it right Nobody. No saint is Christ.

Speaker 3: 1:40:51

Oh St louis de montfort as well.

Speaker 1: 1:40:52

Sorry, so sorry, sorry, some every saint has this unique aspect of christ that if you can't, you you know if you read christ, sometimes when you read the gospel, sometimes a bit overwhelming. But if you study an actual particular saint, you might find something in that saint that you can emulate and that's how you can emulate christ through emulating that saint. It was just a little thing that came to me over the past couple of years through having these conversations and through having devotions to the saints.

Speaker 1: 1:41:19

I think that's beautiful um, anthony gonzalez, ten dollars. Viva crystal ray, bobby again. Uh, they can't have a christian nation. I think we read this. We covered that one already. We covered that one. Um, uh, that's just support from laura, thank you. Um, how about our lady and the triumph of her immaculate heart?

Speaker 3: 1:41:38

that hasn't happened yet what's a greater triumph of the immaculate heart than the return of her son and the inauguration of all things new?

Speaker 1: 1:41:45

yeah, you, you've, you've, you've talked about that a little bit on our show where you're not sure there's going to be that period of peace, and it is open for interpretation. There's, no, it's not set in stone that there's going to be some 50, 60 year reign of our lady. So you know that is.

Speaker 3: 1:42:03

That is wrong and hopefully I am, but you know I don't think I I haven't seen anything like that in the fathers or or the saints prior to relatively recently.

Speaker 1: 1:42:12

Yeah, that's mostly private revelation. It's not. It's not in the fathers or or the saints prior to relatively recently. Yeah, that's mostly private revelation, it's not. It's not in the fathers, it's mainly private revelation. Um, uh, many fathers interpreted the catacomb from thessalonians, too, as being related to the temporal power of the roman empire. What do you see the catacomb being? And if it is the church, when? When the catacomb? I'm not sure what the end of that means, but, um, yeah, we've talked about this too, right yeah, I, I my my view.

Speaker 3: 1:42:36

I'm still working on a book on this, but my view of the catechon is multivalent. I think there's uh, certainly temporal elements of it. Per what you said, many fathers did believe, they believe there was something roman about it 100 and then saint thomas aquinas, in his commentary on second thessalonians, dealt with this issue of well, if it's the roman empire, the roman empire is no longer here. So what is it? And he, similar to saint bruno of cologne and others, uh, believed it was the uh submission of christian princes to the priesthood, preeminently the pope. And so, um, yeah, I believe there's that element.

Speaker 3: 1:43:13

Again, christendom, the church, includes a lay element, a temporal element. Right going back to the earlier comment about gnosticism and protestantism, one of the point, this can maybe be a helpful apologetic uh point for people to make with protestant friends and family. But, um, I, I will sometimes make the points like the church, scripture doesn't call it the church, christ spirit called a christ body. Now, there obviously are invisible elements to the life of the church. Obviously, grace is invisible, spirits are invisible, angels are, you know, all sort of god himself is invisible, right, but the church is a body because it has been assumed by divinity.

Speaker 3: 1:43:50

And so anytime somebody is trying to downplay the physicality, the visible nature of the church, which all protestantism does anglicanism probably the least, I'll give them credit for that, sure, but all protestantism in some, I would say, they diminish the visibility to the extent that they make it not catholic, they make it anglican, and so um, but, but, but they're, but. They're engaged in a gnostic enterprise of separating body and spirit, when it's like nope, the lord brought invisible and visible together, and the fullness of his body is a visible and and invisible reality that is likewise united and together, if you guys want the invisible elements are meant to draw you to the visible yeah, if you guys want to go back, josh and I have done several shows at this point, but we did do an episode on the catacomb.

Speaker 1: 1:44:38

Um, the my two, probably the first two episodes we did together. One was on the catacomb and the other was on the mystery of iniquity. Those were both really, really good shows. So if you guys never just look up like the mystery of iniquity, avoiding babylon, and you'll find that one and then just punch in joshua charles, you'll see all the episodes that he's come up on. But those are the two episodes. Um, josh, you do. If you want to pick a comment or two to to comment on in the chat itself before you got to go, I don't want to hold you longer than you have to.

Speaker 3: 1:45:04

No, I'm fine I can go right up to about seven, my time all right, so let's see what we got in the chat. What do? You see, if Kevin wants to finish his question on the catacomb, unless we didn't address it, there were tons of them. He just said there was a second part. Well, hurry and write it, let's see. Oh, I also think there's a Eucharistic element to the catacomb. By the way, the Paul's language for the catacomb is a is an individual he and a neuter it.

Speaker 1: 1:45:38

So you know well, we've we've talked about how, like there's an element of when paul vi lays down his papal tiara and kind of yeah, kind of lays down his authority as the prince of the nations. You know, essentially he basically lays down his kingship with that tiara and then gives it over to the United Nations. There's something very deeply restrained. The restraint is lifted in that act. So there's something deeply connected to the roman pontiff that has to do with the restrainer, and go ahead, I'll let you go well.

Speaker 3: 1:46:20

So there was an interesting point. I heard the other day that, um, there's a word, what was it? It was the coal or the fire that our lord had with the apostles right after the resurrection in the gospel of John, when he restores Peter right, and the word for coal or fire, whatever it was there, there's only one other time. It's used in all of scripture and it's used for the fire that St Peter is keeping himself warm with near Caiaphas.

Speaker 3: 1:46:52

So, if the passion of the church is a fulfill fulfillment of the passion of our Lord. My theory has been for a while that Peter wouldn't apostatize because he didn't. He didn't. He never said Jesus is not the Messiah. He never even said I'm not, I'm not the rock. He just said I don said Jesus is not the Messiah. He never even said I'm not, I'm not the rock. He just said I don't know him.

Speaker 3: 1:47:16

And so I do think there's a, there's a is a valid interpretation and and I think there have been a number of popes who have, you know, we love them, we pray for them and I'm I'm not here to berate any Holy father, but but a valid understanding of that in light of the typology of the passion would be that perhaps popes in that time will be a no-show, just like the first pope was.

Speaker 1: 1:47:40

Yeah, um, not saying jesus is a messiah, not inaugurating some false form of worship, but but sort of like I quote, a lot of grief for saying that it seems as if the popes after the council have like it's almost like there's a, there's a hesitancy. I mean I said the words the popes after the council are ashamed of Christ, but I didn't mean like they're ashamed of, I meant like they're they're almost hesitant to proclaim Christ because they're afraid of the repercussions of it. And that seems very much like peter saying I don't know the man, you know it just not. Not not that they actually say it, but just in their hesitation to proclaim the truth boldly. It seems like there's an element of that going on, but you and I would disagree. I think a bit, and I don't know how much, but I do think, because Christ restores Peter at that fire, that there's a chance in the temporal sense After his resurrection. You think it'll be after his resurrection.

Speaker 3: 1:48:43

No, I don't think that's literally what happens in Scripture.

Speaker 1: 1:48:46

Oh right, it's a Christ resurrection. Yeah, that is true, it's after his resurrection.

Speaker 3: 1:48:52

I made this point to you. I think you forgot that I made it, because last time I made this point to you, you had the exact reaction of like that's a good point, yeah it's after his resurrection, but I still do think there's there's going to be after he died and went down to hell and saved the souls, and then the new temple, my typology doesn't line up perfectly, but I do think there is a restoration of peter.

Speaker 1: 1:49:11

My typology doesn't line up perfectly, but I do think there is a restoration of Peter.

Speaker 3: 1:49:13

My typology is better yeah it's a little more accurate.

Speaker 1: 1:49:17

I'll give you that we could be wrong.

Speaker 3: 1:49:18

I hold these loosely. I think it matches. But I'm not here to be dogmatic and cantankerous with Catholics.

Speaker 1: 1:49:25

But that's the thing with eschatology is a lot of it's not dogmatic and you can kind of have a little bit of a theory here and a theory there not dogmatic, and you can kind of have a little bit of a theory here and a theory there and a lot. And it's that way on purpose, because no one knows the day or the hour and you really don't understand prophecy until it's fulfilled and in hindsight. So it is up a little bit for speculation I, and I have hope that Peter will be restored before before.

Speaker 3: 1:49:49

Maybe, so I want to address this question really quick, cause they paid, said I've always, and then I'll come back to that really, because I think there are some dogmatic things related to eschatology. But I've always recognized the fathers didn't think there'd be a literal thousand year reign. But can you summarize why that's not entirely true? Like I said, some fathers did speculate about a literal thousand year reign. It's been a while since I've read, I think, saint uranus of leon, who's a really big father, saint justin, martyr, um, so some of the earlier fathers did think there would be something like that. So it wasn't an always um. And can you summarize why? Um, that'd be a long time I'd have to delve into the logic of it. I just think apocalypse versus four through six, 20 verses, four through six just makes far more sense as a, as a, an indefinite um period of uh, of the time of the church, that's. I mean. I know that's not the best answer, I'm not, I just a lot of fathers just kind of stated somewhat matter of factly that uh and you, there's. There's actually very little commentary on apocalypse, 20. So it's based on inferences from things that the fathers say in multiple places.

Speaker 3: 1:50:56

I can give a quick summary of what I think is dogmatic, and a lot of this is based off what's in the Roman Catechism, which was issued by the Council of Trent. And the Council of Trent does tell us in session four, that the unanimous consensus of the fathers is binding, so if the fathers interpret scripture unanimously in one particular way. There's some details to all this, but I think we can be certain. The Roman catechism says the gospel will go to the ends of the world. That's dogmatically certain. That there will be a great apostasy, that's dogmatically certain. That there will be an Antichrist, that's dogmatically certain. That Antichrist will bring the public sacrifice of the mass to an end for three and a half years, that's dogmatically certain. That there will be a mass.

Speaker 3: 1:51:37

Yeah, yeah, it happened for three and a half months, almost before, I just don't remember. Yeah, um, um, if you catch my drift um, and then uh that the uh that the Jews will initially receive him as Antichrist, that's dogmatically certain, as far as I'm aware. If somebody shows fathers who contradict this, I haven't found them yet, so I'm open to correction here and that the Jews will have a final conversion to the Catholic faith, that's dogmatically certain. So there's quite a bit we can be fairly certain about. But yes, you're right, there's plenty of room for speculation within those red lines.

Speaker 1: 1:52:16

I got gotta highlight this because they paid. Do you think trans women are women? I don't even think women that play man male sports are women.

Speaker 3: 1:52:23

Um, oh, what I do there uh, why didn't he show up at the foot? Uh, I, because I don't that's a good cigar mode, because I think he fell into the sin of despair, not compunction yeah, yeah, yeah, I think the difference, not to the point of Judas. That thing right, you didn't commit suicide Judas.

Speaker 1: 1:52:47

Judas despaired unto taking his life, and you know.

Speaker 3: 1:52:52

But you are right, lost Creole and it'll probably remain that way for that reason. So says he. Josh is obviously is not married with children. He has way too much time to read. So, and you know what folks, I'm trying to put it to good use for all of us I really am through eternal Christendom. So check it out, eternal Christendom. So check it out eternalchristendomcom.

Speaker 1: 1:53:15

St Augustine is pretty much the first of the fathers to think that we were currently living in the thousand-year reign. Many think this is what empowered Christendom to exist. I agree with Augustine. So like the thousand-year reign that he was living in it, like in the city of god. That's what he's kind of explaining, that no, I know.

Speaker 3: 1:53:33

I don't know what many think this is what empowered christian to exist. I don't know what that means.

Speaker 1: 1:53:36

Yeah I don't know either, but uh well, I I like. So, in other words, reading augustine's thoughts on it is what inspired like it. I don't know if it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how to interpret that either, but yeah, if anybody has never read City of God, it's on YouTube for free like a Libra box recording. I go to bed to it quite often. It's pretty good. Jesus fulfilled the four springtime feasts and will fulfill the three fall feasts in his return. Not knowing the day or the hour relates to the Feast of the Trumpets.

Speaker 3: 1:54:13

I have. I've heard that robert and I, I, I find it very interesting, I want to explore it further. I, I think that's that that's very, very interesting to me and I think it's worth exploring further. So, yeah, we should all do that kind of collectively um, all right.

Speaker 1: 1:54:27

Um, yeah, if there's any last last questions. Um, josh, why don't we do a good eternal christendom plug? I already did that. I don't want to. There's any last questions?

Speaker 3: 1:54:33

Josh, why don't we do? A good Eternal Christendom plug. I already did that.

Speaker 1: 1:54:35

I don't want to there's a whole new audience now, though. Exasperate the audience.

Speaker 3: 1:54:38

Okay, yeah, well, I mean, check out Eternal Christendom. We're basically trying to bring the classics of the great tradition of Christendom into a digital world where people are highly distracted and not everybody's a nerd like me, but we are trying to be very. I come on Avoiding Babylon to do some commentary in my personal capacity. Eternal Christum is primarily about the sources, because I my life has been immeasurably enriched by going into the sources of history and found so much wisdom, so much treasure there, and so Eternal Christum is trying to bring that treasure out into a digital age. We want to create the most beautiful books. We want to create the best apologetics Bible ever written. We want to integrate all this stuff with the digital world. Pray for a lot of wisdom.

Speaker 3: 1:55:24

I can't go into the details yet Anthony knows a little bit. Anthony, don't you dare give a single detail in any way? But I had a very, very, very, very interesting meeting not too long ago, well, yesterday and the day before. Won't go into details, won't say who. I will simply say it was related to ai um and I saw things that shocked the you know what out of me. It's way further along than people realize and this person I was speaking with. I'll just say they are in a position to know.

Speaker 3: 1:55:58

That's what I would say. They said, josh, there is fire, there is the wheel and there is AI, and from what I was experiencing and being shown, that could very well be true and the implications of that I don't even claim to have a handle on at this point. I think there's potentially very antichristic implications and, by the way, this person thinks that's possible as well. So, but yeah, be praying for discernment. I'm very excited to know some of the people I've been blessed to, uh, to meet and um, but yeah, there's a lot to ponder. But yeah, that's we're trying to do. I, josh, spoke to Jimmy. No, I have not. No, the trust.

Speaker 1: 1:56:41

No, he was kidding Jimmy.

Speaker 3: 1:56:53

Jimmy Akin, but it's suffice it to say it's somebody very, very much in the know and and we're directly involved in multiple things that of that that millions, perhaps billions of people use. I'll put it that way. So, yeah, um you also.

Speaker 1: 1:57:02

You also did I won't give anything away, obviously but you also did speak of ways that it could be used for good, because it is just a tool and there's there, yeah, I saw a lot of ways it could be very helpful yeah, yeah, I saw a lot of ways it could be very helpful.

Speaker 3: 1:57:13

Yeah, yeah, I saw a lot of ways it could be used for good. So, anyway, we're trying to bring the great tradition where our mission is, to cultivate saint stages and states with the great tradition of christian. That's our goal. And then we we say that we want people to become, remain and deepen their lives as catholics. So I'm focused on the sources. So I don't plan, I don't plan to do reaction videos. I don't plan to get into all the drama that Anthony sometimes gets into, and oftentimes insightfully not always prudently maybe, but oftentimes insightfully eventually. So that's what we're doing and we're asking people to give $10 a month If we have about 2,000 Catholics now. Since mean we, we, since we first came on, we have, we've had a a more than doubling of our monthly patronage and we now have. When we first started this, we had about 20 of our budget covered by small monthly patrons. Now we have about 30, almost 33. So we're making significant progress, but this is a very, very long-term project we've got over a million words of resources.

Speaker 3: 1:58:14

So become a patron, top right, of our website. Become, you know, ten dollars a month.

Speaker 1: 1:58:17

If you can do more, great, but yeah it's also a very important project because I I'm seeing an in-depth apologetic coming from you guys that I, I think, I, I I haven't seen anywhere else. I mean, honestly, like even even reading some of your long form tweets, I always pick up an insight here and there. I think what you guys are doing is actually very important, which is why I always do like to get you on to you know, I love picking your brain. I love, I love them. I thought tonight was infinitely better than the last one. It was just yeah it was fun.

Speaker 3: 1:58:49

We can do it, but okay, can we agree? Can you just stop complaining about it from here on out? You intestinally complain about everything. You're like a super masculine guy and I love you for it. But you have this hyper-feminine side too, like get over it, get over it.

Speaker 1: 1:59:08

You know the feminine impulse to have this filing cabinet of every memory where I've been hurt and you pull it out on command like ah, anthony, I'm having fun with Anthony, of course, but yeah, you know what it is Like me and you all right, you know what you got to go. I'm going to let you go. I'm going to actually jump over to Locals. Guys, I'm going to jump over to Locals. I'm going to hang for like 20 minutes.

Speaker 3: 1:59:27

I can longer. Let me just make sure my door's open, because I have a weekly catholic men's group, so let me go ahead, open it up.

Speaker 1: 1:59:32

We're gonna jump over to locals and, uh, I'm gonna I'm gonna throw an idea by you guys. So, all right, everybody on the other streams, I'm gonna remove you guys, anybody that wants to jump over on locals. I got, uh, I got, some ideas that I'm thinking about, uh, running by you guys, so we'll try that.