Pope Francis Lied and Masses Died?

What does the Catholic Church look like after Francis? As Pope Leo XIV completes his first two months on the Chair of Peter, Catholics worldwide are carefully watching for signs of where this pontificate might lead. In this wide-ranging conversation with Crisis Magazine editor Eric Sammons, we explore the subtle but significant shifts already visible in Rome.

Following years of controversy and division under Pope Francis, Leo's relatively "boring" papacy has provided a welcome reprieve for many Catholics. While maintaining certain elements of his predecessor's messaging around synodality, Leo has simultaneously embraced traditional forms of Catholic piety that had been marginalized in recent years. His use of Latin in prayer, participation in Eucharistic processions, and embrace of traditional vestments represent meaningful departures from the previous pontificate, sending important signals to faithful Catholics worldwide.

The conversation takes a fascinating turn as we discuss Diane Montagna's bombshell reporting confirming what many had suspected – that Traditionis Custodes, Francis's controversial restriction on the Latin Mass, was built on misrepresented data. The document claimed widespread episcopal support for restrictions that simply didn't exist, raising profound questions about trust and transparency that the new pontificate must now navigate.

Beyond papal politics, we dive into generational dynamics within Church leadership, with many "boomer" bishops maintaining an emotional attachment to Vatican II that younger clergy don't necessarily share. This generational transition promises to reshape Catholic identity in the coming decades as a new wave of leadership emerges.

Whether you're deeply invested in these ecclesiastical questions or simply curious about where Catholicism is headed, this conversation offers valuable perspective on finding balance amid transition. Subscribe and join us as we continue exploring the challenges and opportunities facing Catholics in our complex modern landscape.

Chapters

• 0:00 Show Introduction and Sponsor Update
• 2:45 Eric Sammons' New Book on Bitcoin
• 5:00 Reflecting on Pope Leo's First Two Months
• 10:45 Catholic Identity and Traditional Piety
• 17:25 Comparing Leo to Francis and Benedict
• 27:45 Traditionis Custodes and Diane Montagna's Report
• 34:42 The "Boomer" Generation in Church Leadership
• 42:55 Eric's Career in Catholic Media
• 50:40 The Future of Catholicism and AI
• 1:01:12 Discussing Israel and Jewish-Christian Relations

Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:19

Satsang with Mooji All right, everything kind of got thrown up in the air tonight. We were going to talk I had all these clips ready to go. We were going to talk about this Peter Thiel Ross, Douthat interview, and then Diane Montagna.

Speaker 1: 0:42

We even lost our sponsor right before the show we did so not really, we didn't really.

Speaker 2: 0:49

But we're, uh, recusin sellers. Uh, they're. They're having a tricky time, uh, mailing wine in the hot summer months, so they're just gonna pause for two months. So I think you might be able to still get our promo code in one last time before we pick back up in the fall. So use code based at Recusant Sellers, but that's the last time you're going to hear about them as a sponsor for a couple of months. But even our intro video didn't actually match for this. But I mean honestly, eric, you're probably the perfect person to have on the, the, the editor of crisis magazine, for this. Uh, it's funny because we all kind of knew, right like none, nothing. Diane released today was bombshell to us, but it's still kind of interesting to get the proof. Um, but before we even get into that, eric, you, uh, you just, uh, you just put out a book. Is it still on presale or is your book out now?

Speaker 3: 1:48

It's out now. Yeah, I got it right here Moral Money, the Case for Bitcoin. So yeah, it just came out like two weeks ago. I was really happy I got on the Tom Woods show to talk about I don't know if you know who that is, but-.

Speaker 2: 1:59

I do.

Speaker 3: 1:59

That's a big deal. That was a big deal when I got on there, because I actually was listening to Tom Woods' show in 2013. That got me into Bitcoin Really, and so to be on his show to talk about my book about Bitcoin 12 years later, that was pretty cool and it's funny. I do a million of these interviews and I've been on podcasts all the time. This is the first one I was nervous for.

Speaker 2: 2:20

A little fanboying, huh.

Speaker 3: 2:22

I told my wife to listen to it to see, can you tell? Because I admit I was nervous. I was like a little bit of a fan boy. I mean I admit it.

Speaker 1: 2:28

Now you know how Anthony felt. You know how Anthony felt when he was on with you for the first time, for the first time.

Speaker 2: 2:35

Tom Woods is awesome because he wrote a book about how the Catholic Church built the West. Yes, if nobody's ever checked that book out like, tom woods is known as a libertarian commentator, but he's also a catholic, yeah, and he wrote how, the how the catholic church built western civilization. I think that's the title.

Speaker 3: 2:54

Might be off on the title beautiful book after simone pontificum about the latin mass and it's a beautiful little book and it came out after simone pontificum and it was explaining kind of why is this a big deal? And he was like it was a it's a great little book. It's out of print now, but it's a great book, uh, so, yeah, so, um, it was great being on his show and he's great. I mean, it was just uh, like as soon as he jumped we jumped on before the, before the show went live. He was very much just like we had known each other for years and we had never talked in our life, so he definitely knew of you, though, because I remember listening to his shows.

Speaker 2: 3:28

A while back when he was, he was reading one peter five before you before you took over.

Speaker 3: 3:33

Yeah, so if anybody doesn't know, eric also is the well, it's tim flanders, the editor at one peter flanders is the editor one pier five, and I'm kind of oversee it, and, to be honest, though, I let tim do what he wants. He'll check it. I'll check in with him sometimes, but I, you know, at first I was very much kind of more managing it to make sure it's in the right vein and everything, but then I just like tim's style and so I just was like you do what you want to do and, like I said, every once in a while, for example, when he wants to write about the amish, he sometimes checks in with me to make sure it's okay.

Speaker 2: 4:07

We're going to. I think we're going to do that conversation on locals tonight, because you and I have just we've mentioned to each other and DMs having that conversation, just because, like, I'm always looking for the appropriate position to take as a catholic on that question, but it's definitely more appropriate to do on locals, just because, yeah, it's just one of those things without stupid algorithms.

Speaker 2: 4:31

But also I, I wanted to ask you, um, we've had, we've had leo for what? Two months now, right? Um, I watched, I watched your episode with you, kennedy and Flanders, when we initially got the white smoke, we had Tim Gordon on in that episode. We just kind of were like, oh my gosh man, doom and gloom. We thought the end of the world was coming. And then I kind of witnessed I think probably Taylor was the first one to go look, let's just give this guy some space a little bit. You know, and I and I, well, taylor didn't first say that.

Speaker 2: 5:10

No, no, no, he, all of us had the same reaction.

Speaker 3: 5:12

Yeah yeah, God bless him for then. Kind of backtracking and realizing, okay, let's take a step back.

Speaker 2: 5:17

So yeah, I think my initial reaction was just what my raw reaction was in the morning. We all were hoping for a longer period before we got the white. So every one of us I mean we were like the longer this thing goes, the better news it is for us, because that means the conservatives put up a little bit. Anthony, I want to run with you at the tlf. I like eric eric's funny.

Speaker 2: 5:44

That was funny actually. We've been goofing around with each other a little bit so, yeah, we had. That was just my raw reaction to him coming in. And then I think it was kind of appropriate for us to not have the new Pope come into a posture of hostility from trads until we kind of see what he does. You, what do you think you think that was the right approach to?

Speaker 3: 6:07

take. I do, I really do. I mean, I think you, you know, maybe some of the audience knows, but like I had stopped just talking about Francis back in August, it just was a matter of I felt like there was diminishing returns, there was more diminishing returns. Everybody knew where I stood on him, Everybody knew where he stood and I just was like the constant just continuing to complain about what he did. I just didn't see any real benefit to it. Not that I thought he was also in a great Pope or became a Pope's plan or anything like that, but I just didn't see the purpose. So then when he died, and it's like, and then I did right after he died, I wrote how terrible of a Pope he was. But then when Leo was elected, before he was elected, I told myself like there's no real purpose to jumping in and attacking him. Like for me at least.

Speaker 3: 6:57

Like you know, some people tell a story like when Francis first came out in the Logia, they immediately like, oh, this is gonna be a problem. I just I never heard of him and didn't know who he was. So I was like, well, let's, you know he's a pope, let's see what, what happens. And so I didn't start really kind of publicly criticized until a couple years into it, because it's like what's the point? Like let's just let him get his feet set, let's, you know, see where he really is going with this and just kind of leave it alone. And I think the same thing is true for whoever's going to be elected after Francis. Like my expectation was that the likely thing was he 'd be better than Francis, but wasn't going to be a superstar, wasn't going to be that great, and so my expectations were pretty low. So it's like when Leo says something that's got the kind of synodality ring and you know, kind of the Francis talk Stuff, like that just doesn't bug me. But I think it's because I was like well, that's just the church we're in right now. What did you expect? We're not getting Athanasius Schneider as the bishop. So to me it's like, so far at least, he's far better than Francis, far better than Francis. And he's not quite as good, as you know, benedict, but it's like okay, that's kind of in the range I was expecting anyway. And so I just think people need to chill out. Let them go, let them cook and just see what happens.

Speaker 3: 8:13

And I think there's been positive things.

Speaker 3: 8:16

In fact I have an article come out tomorrow, crisis, about the fact that his kind of traditional piety that's showing, you know, speaking in Latin, praying in Latin and the Eucharistic procession, corpus Christi, stuff like that, that's good, even if he is like a post conciliar, like you know, hardcore guy.

Speaker 3: 8:34

Because for two reasons First of all, it's just objectively good when you do things like that, that, and then, secondly, it allows, like the young priest who got shot down because he said a couple prayers in latin during the mass by his senior pastor, by the bishop, or wanted to, you know, basically encourage an ultra rail. Well, now that young priest can be like well, you know, the pope's doing it, why can't I? So I think that it kind of trickles down. I mean, I think we forget how bad francis was, like he, he, he literally was all-out attack on tradition, and so just getting a reprieve of a guy who clearly is not doing an all-out attack on tradition, I think it's a good thing. And so like I'm just not going to go down the, let's find another thing to complain about yeah, it's all right, I just think he's boring.

Speaker 3: 9:29

He's just boring isn't that what we want? Yes, sorry, I don't want somebody who's going to like make x blow up every morning like. I want somebody that we don't actually talk about in fact I'd love it if a pope would just the next I'd love next book just shut up most of the time and just did nothing other than just kind of clean house internally. So like I'm totally, I'm down with boring because I'm a boring person.

Speaker 2: 9:52

So uh, you know that's why I'm fine with the boring part. I I okay. So we just saw that was the problem.

Speaker 1: 9:58

You literally said that was the problem well, I just think he's boring.

Speaker 2: 10:02

I didn't say it's the problem. I think the problem is actually his. Is that you want more?

Speaker 3: 10:07

content for your show is what that's for sure, right, I mean it's all about the clicks, baby, the view sponsors.

Speaker 2: 10:14

I mean come on, oh, and catholic content, great you. I mean, we're gonna have to go back to the days of just like fighting actually learning about the faith imagine.

Speaker 3: 10:22

That I know that that'd be awful so, um, my all right.

Speaker 2: 10:26

So I'm more concerned with personnel choices that he's still making, you know, um, because I think there's a danger to a guy who, like he, hasn't said anything controversial, there's no news stories to report on. He's I mean, if anything, the things he's doing, like it has has a very Catholic veneer to it and don't even say that, though it might have to, it has the Catholic veneer to it. It's much easier to talk to Protestants, I would say so far Right, because one of the biggest impediments to evangelization was Protestants throwing quotes from France. It's like you got a communist pope. What are you talking about, you know. So it is much better in that respect. I am still very concerned with his personnel choices and he's been in for two months and I'm still seeing dioceses put restrictions on the latin mess. Now texas got a two-year extension that they put in the request, right.

Speaker 3: 11:22

So I I'm not sure I mean, what do you really expect them to do so far? Like, okay, we've had Detroit, we've had Charlotte, that have been awful, but they were literally put in there by Francis to do that and so now they did it. It's not like. I mean, I think we have to recognize the Pope in Rome, isn't like? Okay, boy, I really see Twitter's blowing up because of Charlotte. I better do something about this today. No, a smart pope at least is going to take his time going to evaluate, determine what do I need to do. And also, I don't really see his appointments like. They're not. I mean, I'm not a big fan of some of them. They're not like that, they're not that real controversial. He's keeping his guys in France, guys in so far, far, but they all do that. Like if he renews tucci and roche and people like that, then yeah, that's, that's a real. But you know things like he pointed that woman or something. Of course he did. I mean, that's just kind of where we are.

Speaker 1: 12:14

We've had bad appointments for the last 70 years. That's that many years, yeah, I mean jp2 had terrible appointments, terrible appointments.

Speaker 3: 12:22

That was the worst part of his pontificate and, like we, we would love to have a jp2 today yeah it, it is true, right like so if he would have came in and just started cleaning house.

Speaker 2: 12:32

So I still it's just such a weird place to be where I'm watching trads. Uh, will like point out oh, leo did this and he said the, the our father, he said the paternoster this morning, and then you'll. You'll still get mike lewis and the and the lefties going. Oh, but look, he said synodality and you have these. It was like there was such clarity on their francis as much as it was ambiguity. It was like we knew where we stood.

Speaker 3: 12:57

It kind of brought well, yeah, this is just the beginning of a pontificate. Everybody's trying to claim them as their own. Yeah, because we're hoping that we can shape the narrative and say, okay, he's our guy, and I mean trads do it as much as the, as the liberals do it and progressives do it. But I do think that, like, ultimately, that's kind of what he's trying to do is being this unifying force where, like everybody likes leo, like there's a real benefit to that. It doesn't, like I said, it doesn't get you the, the, as many views on on x.

Speaker 3: 13:27

So sorry, anthony, you're, you're but, it there is a real benefit that that, like, go ahead and like I don't know who's that gnome, who who's like it says he's a theologian and he always is posting about what the pope says. It's like progressive stuff. Anyway, he's a teacher somewhere and he calls himself a theologian. Thank you, thank you, and, like you know, he's just going to continue to do that over and over again and just let him do it. It's like whatever.

Speaker 1: 13:54

He wants another biography job.

Speaker 3: 13:57

Yeah, I'm sure he does, I mean yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, yeah it's.

Speaker 2: 14:07

Uh, it's well, look it is. We went through a rough 12 years. I think the interregnum period was really nice.

Speaker 2: 14:10

It was like it was just such a nice feeling of being in the interregnum and it was like give us a two-year man, anthony's, like huh being a settee kind of nice reveal we always wanted to be said he's after all it was pretty fun, um, but you know it's also, uh, it's, but it's been kind of nice to not have the, every single day, the daunting headline of what, for what, the pope just did to upend years of tradition, and even little things like Leo walking with the Eucharistic procession. He's got some Catholic piety to him that we haven't seen in a very long time, which is absolutely refreshing.

Speaker 1: 15:00

Yeah, I think we're going to find that maybe he's similar in Francis in terms of some of his beliefs about synodality and he's obviously a modernist. We were not going to not get a modernist pope, but it looks like he actually likes the Catholic faith and actually maybe believes it. So that's a positive, I would say, over what we had, and I think again.

Speaker 3: 15:25

You cannot. I don't think you can underestimate how important that is in the trenches, because I saw that when I because I was working for a diocese when Francis was elected and once Francis started saying this crazy stuff, I heard that over and over again. Like you know, I tell the story like when I, when Francis was elected, I was meeting with his deacon and this lady who were trying to get a pro gay group started in the diocese and I was shooting them down. And then he got elected. They came back to me months later when he said who am I to judge? And they're like well, now Francis allows it, so let's, we can set this up Right. And I had to explain it to him. No, and like to them. It's like why is this lay person telling us we can't do what the pope just said we can do, and that happened so many places, so many times.

Speaker 3: 16:11

It empowered the worst bishops and the worst priest, and so even a pope who, like you said, might be a modernist, the fact that he is, uh, you know, doing eucharistic procession that emboldens the young priest who is more orthodox, more traditional, and say, hey, let's do it. Hey, father, you know doing a eucharistic procession that emboldens the young priest who is more orthodox, more traditional, and say, hey, let's do it. Hey, father, you know, pastor, let's do a eucharistic procession. Look at what the pope did, everybody loved it, type of thing, and that that brings in soul. So I I really think that I'm not saying it's everything, obviously it's not everything, I don't. The synodality stuff is a bunch of hogwash and crap, but like, at the same time, it I think it trickles down that traditional piety that then emboldens and helps the, the, the, the, the, the traditional young priest. I don't mean like a traditionalist, but more just like he leans more traditional and he gets shot down by everything for the past 12 years.

Speaker 2: 17:01

What do you make of the um? So in the uk there was a priest who denied communion to um a politician who was, I think I don't know he was supporting euthanasia or something like that suicide. Yes, yeah, so so the the the priest denied him communion and then the uh, the bishop actually came out and said no, we're not, so I, I have the art. Rob, can you bring up the uh pillar article about that? I?

Speaker 2: 17:29

think he just said, like we don't do that, yeah, we don't know he said basically, like the church, that is not the church's position for us to do that right. So you still have this boomer class in the hierarchy. Oh which I, I, kind of I. Something happened today where I was just like. They're no different than the secular boomers and I I know we have older people who watch our show. We're not saying every single boomer. You guys don't have to get defensive calm down.

Speaker 2: 17:55

I'm so tired of like the, the boomers being so defensive about it's like we're talking, we're talking in generalities here, and it's like the, the boomer generation, kind of had this mentality. It's like, well, I gotta get mine, I want my, my retirement home in florida, I want to go on my cruise every year and I feel like that's. The boomers in the hierarchy are very similar. It's like they're terrified to say no to women, right? So they're surrounded by these women at their, at their, in their diocese, and they're just afraid to say no to them. Just like, like most of the men who raised us, if you were, your parents were boomers.

Speaker 2: 18:26

The wife basically ran the household, the husband was kind of just like a yes man, and I kind of see those men as the same thing Like they. They don't want any static from from the press, they don't want to deal with any kind of that. They just want to get through this and they almost don't want to deal with any kind of that. They just want to get through this and they almost don't care what happens to the generation after them. They don't care if inflation is through the roof and these kids can't afford homes. They don't care if the dogma is intact.

Speaker 3: 19:00

It's a very like, equal thing to what we're big restructuring, where priests were moved all over the place, and a priest friend of mine actually was moved to another parish and he was the pastor, and he had an associate pastor who was also solid, and basically there's a huge revolt going on there. Why? Because the boomers can't stand him. Because he's simply trying to do things the way the church wants them to be done, I mean, and he's not, this guy's not, he's not trad, he's not trying to even do Latin or that. He's just simply the basics of we're not going to do all the boomer mass stuff, we're not going to do all this stuff, and it's like they are just in full revolt and they're all they're doing. They're going to the paper and the local paper and saying all that how it was a loving church before. Now it's rigid and blah.

Speaker 3: 19:46

I mean, all the boomerisms are just, and it's like that's going on a lot of places and it just it's ridiculous. And the fact is, though, we still have to wait a while before they all die out. I mean, the youngest boomers are still in their 60s. I mean they still have a ways to go, and so for bishops, 60s is young, remember? I mean they still have 15, 20, 25 years left, so we still have most bishops, I would assume, are boomers and so, because of that, we're going to be ruled by them for for quite some time. But they are dying out and their influence is dying out, and so you know it's such a strange mentality and I think it was Dr Question F.

Speaker 2: 20:25

He said like there's a difference in Francis, who was, like he was an older, boomer Right. So he was, I think, ordained as as the new right was coming in, where Leo Leo's my dad's age. He's like sixty, nine I think, or sixty or 69. I think he was born in 55. And like he, like my dad doesn't remember the Latin mass when he was a kid, Cause he like made his communion in it, but then the new, the new right, came over, you know. So it's like where Francis was part of the revolution and where you got a couple of years between him and Leo.

Speaker 3: 21:01

Now Leo it's kind of like the revolution was already kind of set in place by the time he came in. So he's not as like like die hard hippie like the older guys. I think there's like a personal attachment to vatican 2 by that generation that will never be broken until they die. And the fact is, once you get to the younger boomers, but especially then Gen X, then you get people who are just they were born after. If you're born after Vatican II, you don't have that personal attachment. Or even if you were very young, you don't care that much Like okay, the most important thing is we have to keep Vatican II intact, we have to make it the guiding star of everything, and so I think that's what we're seeing more than anything. It's just like people aren't don't have this emotional attachment to Vatican two where it's like, oh my gosh, you can't say anything about that whatsoever.

Speaker 3: 21:50

And and and Leo's on the tail end of of that. I mean he's he's not going to be anti-Vatican two, and I'm not even saying anti-Vatican two, he's going to still weakening. I mean, you saw, jp2 was 100 invested in vatican 2, rat singer 100 invested because they were both there and influential there. And then you have francis, who is kind of weirdly obsessed with vatican 2, and I think, leo, all of a sudden, now you're starting to see the decline it's going to be, each pope, successive pope is likely to be less emotionally attached. I'm not saying they're going to disown vatican 2, but at least they're not going to be like, okay, everything has to run through that lens and I think so. I think, long term, I do think we do see things going in the right direction. I think leo's like the first step of that. I'm not saying he's the big leap, everything's great, but I do think he's the first step. In that I was really hoping to like.

Speaker 2: 22:40

Just the thing is that the whole synodality thing, like like Leo doesn't even know what it means, like he said he said something. He's like what synodality is to me is a state of being. It's like oh, they hate that language, the being church nonsense.

Speaker 3: 22:58

It's so annoying. Being church just makes me cringe.

Speaker 2: 23:00

Oh, it's the cringiest fricking thing in the world, it's just okay. So now that, now that priest, his bishop, comes out and tells him that, right, like what it? And I asked people I was like, should this priest obey his bishop in this situation? Right, and to me I would think it's bordering on mortal sin to force a priest to give communion to somebody who's a public, unrepentant sinner like I don't know.

Speaker 3: 23:24

Do we know if the bishop ordered the priest to give him communion or more was just a statement where he was just saying we don't do that in the church and then we don't know what happened behind the scenes? I mean it's interesting. It'd be interesting to know what he actually told the priest he had or could not do. There is an argument to be made that the priest could have handled it a bit differently. I always get annoyed by that, though, because he did the right thing ultimately, and it's like then we want to nitpick how he did it, but the fact is is that we don't know yet what he did. I think that a priest is obligated if he knows that this person I mean he knows in this case he's promoting assisted suicide. He knows he's giving public scandal. Therefore, by canon law, he should not be receiving communion. I mean the priest. But we know what will happen to him if he refuses to do what the bishop wants, and he'll get canceled and he won't be practicing, you know, ministry anymore.

Speaker 2: 24:23

Yeah, I think, I think, like even the the diane montagna article now, because everybody's making such a big deal out of it, and it's like francis lied about this and we but I think we all kind of knew most of the bishops are kind of like I said, like they just don't want static in their, in their diocese.

Speaker 2: 24:43

And it's like I know in our diocese, like our bishop just ignored it tradition. He just totally ignored it. He just pretended like he didn't, he doesn't, he's, but he's also not like pro-latin mass. He just kind of like he speaks to the pastors of those parishes and the pastors tell him like look, this is a stable community. They're not some crazy schismatics or anything, these are just young people who love the latin mass. They come, they drive from all over the island to come here and they have like there's men's groups that come out of it. There's bible studies that come out of it, like there's just they're very vibrant, beautiful young communities. So our bishop was kind of just like, unless, like they actually forced me to do something, I'm just going to pretend it didn't happen.

Speaker 3: 25:25

I think there was a lot of bishops, which one, anthony, goes to. We'll shut that one down.

Speaker 3: 25:29

But the rest we'll do it on, yeah, and a lot of bishops did that. That's the thing. So I said today about this, about what Diane reported was everybody knew it was a lie, like the supporters of TC knew it was a lie, the lie. Like the supporters of tc knew it was a lie. The critics of tc knew it was a lie. Yet maybe some of the sycophants like uh, like a rich rahu or whatever his name is, or mike lewis, maybe they actually believed it but, like all the bishops who supported it knew it was a lie. Everybody was like, because you knew, you had evidence right afterwards, the fact that the bishops didn't jump on board with this wholeheartedly like you would think, if they had really said we need to do this, you would have had many more bishops jumping on, not so many ignoring it like yours did. So the fact is, everybody knew it was a lie. The problem is is that that's how, like you know, socialists or communists or whatever, that's how they work is they, they, they they live based on lies. As you know, rod dreher singing, you know, uh, uh, what's theitsyn said. It's like the idea is like they didn't care that everybody knew it was a lie. Francis knew that. Everybody knew he was lying, but he knew he could still get what he wanted because nobody no bishop, nobody with authority would call him a liar. While he was in the chair of Peter, he knew we had enough years of hyper-papalism built into us that nobody would ever just say you're lying, I know you're, and here you know you're lying about this. This isn't what the bishops wanted, and because of that, all it was was people like us saying he's lying and it's like all those crazy trads who cares what they say. And so that allowed it to to to happen. And so in a lot of dioceses they did implement it very harshly.

Speaker 3: 27:05

So I mean it really is. I mean it's diabolical, frankly, and I just I mean, if you think about it, I mean there's no other way to put it than Francis lied publicly in a church document in order to shut down and destroy authentic Catholic communities. How can you make that look better than it is? I mean that is just like. I mean there's just no going around the fact that that was just evil. I mean it was evil just even if he hadn't lied, but like the fact that he literally lied to make this happen so he could destroy authentic Catholic communities, faithful Catholic communities that were thriving, that people were, you know, bringing their kids to baptism and, you know, in confirmations and conversions and all this stuff. I, I have a hard time seeing how a pope could do something much worse than that. Uh, honestly, because do you?

Speaker 2: 27:59

do you think, um, the the whole thing that happened with charlotte a couple weeks ago, um, where the bishop like, gave this whole list of things he was going, he was going to ban ed orient them, he was going to ban kneeling for communion, all these things. And then there was this huge outburst online and I saw a lot of people saying, especially from that diocese, were like, why are you doing this online? Like, but I do think the pressure of seeing Pillar articles written about it it was written about in the Catholic Herald, it was like all of the publications and all of the podcasts was coming out and, like, reacting to it, it clearly had an effect on the bishop Absolutely, where he said okay, you know what, I don't want this backlash, I'm going to tone it down and we'll wait to see if anything comes out of Rome. Like, do you think something is coming out of Rome in October?

Speaker 3: 28:50

Well, I think that it wouldn't. I would put this way I wouldn't be surprised if somebody leaked it to Diane purposefully because they wanted to basically kind of push or nudge Leo into dropping Traditiones Custodis. That would not surprise me at all. I mean, she's such a good journalist she might have just was able to get it, no matter what. But it wouldn't surprise me if somebody was like okay, now's the time we never get, you know, because the truth is releasing when Francis was Pope, what does that really help? It doesn't that much, because it's not like he's going to rescind it. I mean, he knew he was lying when he did it. He'd just be like, okay, whatever, we'll just ignore it. We'll just gaslight people to say, no, it's not true. But now that releasing after he's dead, it at least gives the opportunity Like I don't think Leo is just going to come out and say, okay, we rescind Trinidad and Tobias. I think what will happen is over a series of actions, it will just be known you don't, don't do this anymore, leave him alone, let him go, and maybe he'll do certain things to encourage it.

Speaker 3: 29:51

You know the, the latin mass a little bit, in ways that francis never would have, which isn't the ideal obviously ideal would be. He just says, okay, tradition's coast is gone, we're back to simone pontificum or, and he celebrates latin mass himself. But, like you know, let's realistic. So I just think it'll eventually fade away, cause what these are like Detroit and Charlotte are both like that are those are Francis appointments that were done specifically for this reason. I've been to Detroit and I've talked to a lot of Latin masters there, including some of the priests who celebrate the Latin mass there, and that is tragic because Detroit was probably the best diocese in America for the Latin mass. It was the most widespread, it was in so many parishes and the last Bishop was fine with that and they all knew. They all knew when, when a new Bishop came it would get shut down.

Speaker 2: 30:35

That was under cause. I remember Voris. That was Voris's Bishop, right, wasn't he Well?

Speaker 1: 30:45

there's been a couple since Boris started. I'm blanking on the guy's name. He was at the head of the Vingeron, or Vingeron, yeah, vingeron, I think.

Speaker 3: 30:49

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:50

Which is interesting.

Speaker 3: 30:52

Like I said, they really had a widespread. I mean Latin Mass was there. I mean I went there and I spoke at I mean I spoke at three parishes there about deadly indifference.

Speaker 2: 31:12

And most dioceses would never let me speak at their parishes and when did that start?

Speaker 3: 31:13

when did when did you, because I would imagine, when did you write? Deadly indifference. What year was that? 2021, same? It came out a couple months after I became error crisis. Really, error crisis also was my death knell. For that, you won't hear funny stories. I'm not allowed to speak in my own in the diocese where I uh used to work directly for the bishop for five years. That's funny.

Speaker 2: 31:28

Wow. So were you a public figure before you went to like you or were you just kind of like writing for places?

Speaker 3: 31:35

I was like I mean public figures, such a? I mean, I wrote my first book in 2010. I had a popular blog back in the day. New advent would run my articles all the time back in 2010, 2011, things like that. I went to work for a diocese. I did speaking engagements, I wrote Old Evangelization for Catholic Answers in 16 or 17, something like that, and so, like I was writing, you know my, my social media presence was growing, so people knew who I was and stuff like that.

Speaker 3: 32:03

But it was really when I wrote, when was, and stuff like that. But it was really when I wrote when I started with crisis. That then it's like okay, that kind of broadened and that's when people started realizing this guy, he's, he's more well, it's 2018. I really came out as more of a trad, and so then it was like things started to become like okay, you're not gonna get to speaking engagements and the truth is I don, I don't. I hate to travel. I like speaking, but I hate to travel. So it's like I don't like but you were never in the.

Speaker 2: 32:29

You were not, because I know you went to Franciscan right, like you were one of Scott Hahn's students and stuff, but like you were never in the Catholic speaker circuit during the heyday of-.

Speaker 3: 32:38

Not on the level of those guys. I would do some talks, but I was never at like the level of where I'm speaking at like conferences and stuff like that. Now, okay, yeah, because that was a, that was a weird. I know all those guys though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course okay, let me tell you a little secret.

Speaker 3: 32:54

Those guys often contact I'm not saying names, but allow them to contact me often to say, oh hey, I love what you just said and it's something there. They don't feel like they're allowed to say yeah, and it's like I don't mind, it's like fine if they're, if they're doing good work for the church. I'm not, but I just think it's kind of funny I think, there's a lot of that, I think.

Speaker 2: 33:12

I think, oh yeah I think there was a few years of where a lot of the guy you think on the francis, like how many people were irked but couldn't say so publicly, like I remember being upset about it, like I've learned my catholic faith from these guys and then we'll go, we go through this in this insane period and they all kind of just keep going about things as business as usual.

Speaker 3: 33:36

I have no problem with like a person on the speaker circuit, that type of person, if they say nothing about francis I don't that's fine, not everybody's required to say something about it.

Speaker 3: 33:46

I just didn't like it when they would like defend him in ways they shouldn't have defended him. It's like just leave it. And a lot of them did stop doing that. Like early on they were big pope defenders and they kind of started to realize, okay, this isn't somebody we want to defend as much, but but yeah, I just it was. I'm not going to get on somebody just because they just didn't say anything. I mean, you know, cause they do some good work. I mean some of these, you know, I I have seen they do, they say some good things, they do some good work. I just I never, I never understood the, the desire to like knock down other, like kind of good Catholics. And this is a guy who literally just had a whole video today where I was knocking down Bishop Barron, so I should probably shut up.

Speaker 2: 34:30

Yeah, but I don't think criticizing something Barron said.

Speaker 3: 34:33

Yeah, I actually don't either. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:37

Like I criticized Matt Fradd and Voice of Reason's conversation but I wasn't making ad hominem attacks on Matt, like it's like you guys said something.

Speaker 3: 34:48

I think it's okay. Yeah, if you, if you say something. This is what the case was with Baron. Uh, I just felt like his, his whole thing about salvation on Catholics is very muddled and very misleading and I wanted to speak out against it. And I had literally just written an appreciation of Bishop Barron, like two weeks ago or something. So it's not like it's a whole thing and same thing with. I didn't watch that thing with uh, fred and whoever that other dude is. Uh, I had never heard of that guy and I still not sure what his name is.

Speaker 2: 35:14

Like Alex.

Speaker 3: 35:14

Burrato, but I don't follow that stuff as much. I just saw the video where he called Taylor Marshall trash or garbage and honestly to me, or garbage and honestly to me. When you do that, I just I, I will admit it, I just I write you off, unless you apologize later, because it's like if you call somebody else, another fellow catholic, garbage like I wouldn't even call father james martin garbage I mean, it's like that's just a lot. And he did it in the kind of a more intimate setting where it's almost like he's just doing it to a bunch of people.

Speaker 2: 35:42

It's like that just is well somebody just said uh, the picture of frat and a tlm frat has been to tlms. What was wild about that pic was that it was frat at a sspx chapel.

Speaker 3: 35:55

Frat went to the sspx, which is interesting because, like I said, I didn't see that thing, but I know, I mean I mean I don't. Yeah, matt, matt's a good guy, I agree. He's pro tradition, very pro tradition, pro TLM. I don't know what he said on that thing, I just know he is and you know people are like we're railing on for going to Byzantine church. He never became like a Byzantine, you know Eastern Catholic and I don't think there is one where he lives now and I don't think there is one where he lives now and so he's just my.

Speaker 2: 36:24

My issue is not with we've talked about this before but I have no issue with somebody who has to escape, like some mundane Novus Ordo Right and they go to an Eastern liturgy, because it's the only thing that I have no issue with that. I only take issue when somebody does that and then they talk about how trads need to be put in line and Tradition was a good thing thing, like that's when I take issue with it or they defend the nova sordo.

Speaker 3: 36:48

It's like dude, you don't even go to it yourself. I, exactly, I I'm with you on that, yeah like I, I, I, I, the, the.

Speaker 2: 36:57

The state of liturgy in america is so abysmal it's like we all have to do what we have to do to get by. We. We do have a couple of super chats here that I want to get to. Um, everyone claiming him. Always is about leo. Everyone's claiming him. Or is it another flavor of one parentism? Let's give everyone what they want to hear. Leo the catholic yeah, I, I, I don't.

Speaker 3: 37:19

I just think it's too early to know wait until he actually goes after trash or something like that, which he hasn't done, I mean, or a document, right, right, yeah, like francis, he really did go after us. And so the peronism I I thought people really overplayed that whole thing, like he wasn't, he didn't really do anything for us. You know, he never was like trying to play our side, he was just fully on the other side. Yeah, and I think also, I think, like leo, like I think he's legitimately likes these traditional forms of piety. You're not that good of a speaker in latin as he is unless you've done it a lot. You haven't done it a lot unless you like it. I mean, maybe it's just he likes it smells. You know it's his preference, smells and bells, but still I think it's uh I think there's something to um having.

Speaker 2: 38:08

There's something to um having a catholic identity right like I always loved michael matt's conference name, the catholic identity conference, because what it felt like under francis was that we were losing our catholic identity, like he wanted us to be no different from anything else you saw out in the culture. So to see Leo bringing out more traditional vestments and stuff, like I understand why people are getting a little excited even over the simple things.

Speaker 3: 38:32

Yeah, and I think, again, it's objectively good. Yes, and like the question is I think I saw somebody chat say like when do we kind of get over the honeymoon I think it's not necessarily a honeymoon of like this should be the default. We've forgotten what the default is because of Francis. A lot of people are young enough to 12 years of Francis. They don't really know much of another pontificate than his, and so I totally get I empathize, I sympathize that they have some PSCT or whatever it's called. You know, I get that.

Speaker 3: 39:01

But like you have to take a step back and say, okay, let's sit in the 2000 year tradition of how we treat popes and we do give them a certain benefit of doubt, we allow a certain amount.

Speaker 3: 39:11

You know, we're not like looking for a reason, like with Francis got a point where we were looking for what was wrong. That's why I checked out of criticizing him at the end, cause I think that's spiritually dangerous and it really and I think we've seen that I think a lot of people they really harm their souls. Francis harmed their soul. I mean they had to take some responsibility for it. But they got so angry, so mad, so cynical about the papacy, about Francis about the church. I really think it harmed their soul and so I just caution that the norm should be we just simply go about our business. We're not obsessed with everything he says and does. If he says something or does something that's really egregious, like really does, like go against the catholic faith, like that, then yes, some people not everybody has to could say something like I think people were overreacting to the whole miracle, the sharing, the miracle of the loaves, like he wasn't saying there's no miracles.

Speaker 2: 40:05

He wasn't saying that wasn't you pope's plain, in a way the most annoying.

Speaker 3: 40:11

It is still a boomerism to to compare that to sharing, don't get me wrong. Like if I ever hear a priest say that, I cringe at it, but at the same time it's not like people were saying, oh, he's denying jesus's miracles. That's not what he did, and so it's like I think that homily is pre-written for every pope to go out and say now but it's just like we've heard that homily so many times.

Speaker 2: 40:36

It's like we don't. We don't want to hear about the miracle of sharing.

Speaker 1: 40:40

Guys they taught in their homiletics courses and seminary problems.

Speaker 3: 40:43

That is not the most boomer homily ever written. I don't know what is I mean? We have been cursed with that damn homily for forever.

Speaker 2: 40:53

I need an edit of Khan from Wrath of Khan cursing Kirk with his final breath. But it is Francis. For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee Taffy if you're watching you have a mission.

Speaker 2: 41:03

Yeah, true Synodality is listening to the bishops and reconsider tc viva crystal, right? Yeah, I think so. Well, that's what that's. What I think everybody's hope is is that if he actually did synodality in a more like, instead of like trying to push through a predetermined agenda, right, it would be very different. Right, but, like, that's what Francis used, synodality is a vehicle to push through an agenda. But if you actually did go and listen to, like, what these young people are saying about their experience with the Latin mass, maybe you would get something a little bit different.

Speaker 3: 41:39

Well, the thing is like, if I'm putting, if I'm like hanging out with people and we're having a theological, academic debate, I'm going to defend the idea of synodality because I actually think it's a good thing in the sense of the way the early church operated. I think there should be a more decentralized way the church operates. I don't think it should be 100% centralized at the Vatican like it has been. So I would like to say that. But the problem is that's nothing at all. It's literally not even anywhere in the same ballpark as the synodality that's been shoved on us, because synodality does not include the laity. That's the most important thing to remember.

Speaker 3: 42:12

Synodality is synods of bishops getting together and talking about the Catholic faith debate in local synods. So, for example, instead of having the usccb, a permanent bureaucratic institution, instead, what should happen is every maybe five years, ten years, not not on regular schedule, but, like you know, on a regular basis, all the bishops of america get together for a synod. Maybe they meet at a monastery in kansas, not a hotel in baltimore, and not they don't have like their whole, like bureaucratic, you know, staff it up, but they get together and say, okay, what are the issues of Catholics in America. Let's address that, let's produce a document, let's produce a plan for addressing that.

Speaker 1: 42:52

The Baltimore Catechism came out of the Baltimore Synod.

Speaker 3: 42:55

Exactly, Thank you, that's exactly what I'm talking about. That's a great use of synods, that is true synodality I mean nobody would complain about the Baltimore Catechism. It was a beautiful effect of an actual synod. Synodality now is just the term they decided to glom onto to say, okay, now we're just going to be a democracy. I'm going to pretend to be a democracy, because under Francis it was a totalitarian dictatorship that pretended like they were a democracy. We're going to listen to the lay people. Lay people. Frankly, I mean, as three lay people here, we should have no say in a lot of this stuff. We really should be the bishops who get together, they make these determinations and then we move on.

Speaker 2: 43:31

Yeah, sometimes it feels like when I saw that thing with the UK bishop saying that after the priest denied the communion, it's like, are these men Catholic? That after the priest denied the communion, it's like, like, are these men catholic? Like are? Are we? Like? Is the faith I was taught the same faith these men believe? And I don't know if it is, but like we still owe them, like we're still subject, it really is a bizarre time in the church. Uh, saint ambrose refused communion to theodosius until he publicly repented. What do you mean? The church doesn't do that. Yeah, on that topic, cigar mode, thank you guys. Yes, we have no wine holdover fund. We lost our sponsor for two months. Don't be cheap.

Speaker 1: 44:11

But I do have wine to hold us over, oh we have wine, we just don't have the fund anymore. I just got to say something.

Speaker 3: 44:16

I remember being being one of the first guests on the Anthony Abate show. Whatever you called it back then it was Avoiding Battle, I don't remember it was. You were so humble. You were like, oh yeah, I'm just going to talk about like I'm not going to get involved in the controversies, I'm just going to talk about, like you know, being a better Catholic stuff, like that. And now look at you, you're corporate, you're begging for money you're talking about Matt Fradd and like going to the SSPX. You have sold out brother completely.

Speaker 2: 44:48

Eric you have no idea I will say this I got to call you out on it, man.

Speaker 2: 44:54

We'll always like we, even towards the end, like you know how you stopped talking about France, like I think all of us just had such a Francis fatigue by the end of his pontificate, like it was almost tiresome, like I think like if something huge came, like when Fiducia's supplicants came out, we talked about that, but like I just didn't care anymore by the end of it. Something too when you're, when you do have that little bit of persecution, that it kind of fires up the, the lady, to take their faith a little more seriously and to like it it's. It's a danger to just have there be like we it, whether it comes from this like I, all right, so that's what it is. I think all of us before francis had always expected the cardinal, uh, francis, george, when he was in chicago. Cardinal, remember how he put that statement out. He goes, I expect my successor to uh, uh, like, uh, like in two or three successes they would die in prison.

Speaker 3: 45:56

Would die in bed. I would die in jail. Uh, like in jail. My president. President died like would be killed or something. Would be a martyr or something like that.

Speaker 2: 46:03

So I think we all had this perception that the church, the world, would always hate us and as things got more progressive in the world and they started trying to legalize gay marriage and things like that, the church would hold her position and her stance and we would receive persecution from the world. But when we started getting that persecution from within the church, I think it sent all of us for a loop. Like none of us were expecting that we were getting in trouble by the hierarchy for being Catholic. It was a weird time.

Speaker 3: 46:32

Two things grew the traditional mass more than anything in this country at least COVID and Francis. There's no question whatsoever, like I know, francis actually shut down. There's less parishes than there were, tlms than there were a couple of years ago. But the fact is there are far, far more people who attend the TLM, and not only that, but are very, or at least are trad friendly because of Francis, because they realize it's just, it's so ridiculous. And so you put COVID in France together ago. That's why we get. I don't believe the pew survey said it's like you know, uh, two percent of all catholics tend to tlm weekly. But at the same time it's a. It's enough of a force that the pew study actually ask about it. Think about that. It's not like they even knew what the tlm was two years ago.

Speaker 2: 47:17

now they're asking about the pew study. That's true, because Pew study does like everything, like they do evangelical surveys. They do like surveys on everything. So for them to even ask about the Latin mass what was that one, rob? It's refreshing. What it's refreshing to see a Catholic on the show instead of a double digit IQ freemason getting on. Jason Jones or Owen Schroyer, jason's great man, yeah, maybe Eric can put us in touch with jason.

Speaker 3: 47:45

Yeah, I'd be happy to put you in touch with him. That guy is the real deal. He's kind of crazy, but you know, in a good way he's crazy but I kind of like what he's.

Speaker 2: 47:51

I mean he's like on the ground in palestine trying to like what I mean it's like you cannot like.

Speaker 3: 47:57

I love when people because I've run a lot of his articles and I tell you what, oh man, I've lost. I have lost a lot of subscribers to crisis over the past just a couple weeks even, but since october 7th, because we run articles critical of israel and you know we have a, our, our podcast is more younger, skewing, our articles are more, not boomer, but definitely older, and so we have a lot of boomers and boy, they do not take criticism israel. I know we're not going to talk about that right here, but the point about Jason is, I love it how people call him an anti-Semite and he's literally in like Palestine and Israel, helping like Jews who are like displaced. He's literally helping Jews and these guys from their desks, you know, behind their desk in America, are saying he's an anti-Semite because he doesn't think Israel should be destroying Gaza.

Speaker 2: 48:45

It's like, you know, shut up and go All right, a good cue for us to switch over to the other side, because I definitely want to get into this topic. It's one where I think I go a little bit further than you do, but I know you. I mean they just I just saw an article about you. They're putting you in there with Dave Smith and a couple of other people, which I know you were thrilled about, and Daryl.

Speaker 3: 49:06

Cooper, I was just like this is beautiful.

Speaker 2: 49:09

And the week that I was on.

Speaker 3: 49:09

Tom Woods. Daryl Cooper was the guest too before me. I'm like there we go, baby. But when I was in the same article as Dave Smith, I was like okay, now he's not there, man.

Speaker 2: 49:23

I haven't listened to him forever Before he blew up. So we're going to get into that, because I go further than you do, but I'm still Also trying to find the proper Catholic response to this topic. So we're going to go over the other side. We're going to discuss the JQ. Eric is a well-known anti-Semite. And, yes, moral money.

Speaker 3: 49:41

Go get it now All the good anti-Semite. And, yes, moral money. Go get it now, all the good anti-Semites they use Bitcoin.

Speaker 1: 49:48

Well, maybe we will even talk about that. You got to get money out of the central banks.

Speaker 3: 49:50

Actually, I'm sure people literally think, probably that Bitcoin is a Jewish plot, so all the it's a Jewish plot too. That's the beautiful thing about Bitcoin it's a Jewish plot to take over the world and it's the currency of anti-Semites. Well how is it different from?

Speaker 2: 50:08

usury or interest, right? How's what different? So you wrote the book Moral Money, right? I'm not going to actually explain the entire book, but give us a little synopsis of what your what your position is on Bitcoin.

Speaker 3: 50:32

Basically, I came to the conclusion, before Bitcoin was even invented, that fiat money is fundamentally immoral. It's immoral, it violates natural law, it violates Catholic social teaching and mostly because it can be inflated, which steals money from people, it harms the poor, all these things. The book explains why. But that's the major point A moral form of money, far more moral, is gold. And gold is a moral form of money because nobody can fully control it. Nobody can just create it out of nothing. It has to be mined, all that stuff.

Speaker 3: 50:58

The problem is, before Bitcoin, I was like well, gold is great, except for it just doesn't work in the modern world. You simply can't buy things in Amazon, you can't do whatever with gold. So I was like wouldn't it be great if you had a form of money that was as efficient as fiat currency but as moral as gold? And then Bitcoin is created. And so it's like so I'm Satoshi Nakamoto, is what I'm trying to say. I'm finally revealing myself to the world. And so it's like so I'm Satoshi Nakamoto, is what I'm trying to say. I'm finally revealing myself to the world.

Speaker 2: 51:23

I invented Bitcoin.

Speaker 3: 51:24

Now, when did you make your first billion? What year was that? Did you see the guy who's mad at me? He literally said I said something about we have to care for the poor. He literally said you need to sell a Bitcoin and buy me a car so I can get to the Latin mass. And I was like I thought he was crazy. Then later he posted to somebody else. He said Bitcoin billionaire rad trad Eric Sammons won't buy me a car. He hates the car he hates. For now, I do want to say one thing, Anthony I really do wish actually that you wouldn't call me a billionaire, because there's a lot of Bitcoin people who are getting like attacked literally physically because they think and people might actually think this guy, I think, thinks I'm actually a billionaire. To be a billionaire, I need to have like 10 000 bitcoin I think that's right which, when I first started, bitcoin was like 500 and I was working for a diocese. Do you really think I had enough money to buy? What is that I?

Speaker 2: 52:17

I started that bit as like a complete joke like it was just like I know because you've always talked about bitcoin and I remember just being like, yeah right, you're bitcoin billionaire, but like it was a complete throwaway joke.

Speaker 3: 52:30

But I know this guy. Literally I said I screen captured that and sent to my family chat my kids and stuff and they were just dying. They were just like, and like my son-in-law was like why am I even working if you're a billionaire dad?

Speaker 2: 52:42

That is true, yeah, yeah. Why would you even be involved with any of this nonsense if you were that well off?

Speaker 3: 52:49

I mean, I'm not a billionaire, a Bitcoin billionaire, anything like that, and so like, yeah, but that's my basic point is that Bitcoin takes the kind of usefulness, efficiency, issues of fiat money and combines with the moral properties of gold and it makes it the most moral form of money we have. So that's the pitch.

Speaker 1: 53:08

You have another book coming, buy it at my website, ericssammonscom.

Speaker 3: 53:10

There we go.

Speaker 2: 53:11

I'm sorry, I actually ruined your plug. Plug that again.

Speaker 3: 53:15

You can buy it at ericssammonscom.

Speaker 1: 53:27

You can buy it anywhere else, but you get a signed copy. You can buy it with bitcoin at my site, ericsammonscom, or with credit cards. So that's pretty. That's my plug. Hey, if you're here showing, you, take usury to buy your book, okay what's that?

Speaker 3: 53:31

you'll take usury to sell your book. I see how I don't understand the usury thing, because gold isn't usury and bitcoin no, no, no you say credit card, you say, you can buy it I will accept usury in order to buy my book. I mean, look at you, how are you getting these payments on YouTube? That's all usury, oh man.

Speaker 2: 53:49

We're slaves to the system. I don't know Now that it's a complete shill factory.

Speaker 3: 53:53

I am shilling my books here all the time.

Speaker 2: 53:55

Let me tell you.

Speaker 3: 53:58

You have another book coming down the pipe also. I have two more books coming down the pike, so I have one that I hope comes out this fall. This is a big deal to me. It's a novel. It's a science fiction novel oh wow. And it's set 100 years or so in the future. The world is recovering from an AI revolt and the Vatican is now the powerful controlling the world, and there's a mysterious signal deep in space that the Pope sends a crew out to investigate. That's all I'll say.

Speaker 3: 54:29

So, I have the first draft written. I'm working through it now. I'm hoping it gets out in the fall. Then I'm also, though I've signed a contract to write a book, the Catholic Guide in Artificial Intelligence, so I'm going to dig very deep, which is interesting Under Leo yeah, that the Catholic guide in artificial intelligence.

Speaker 2: 54:43

So I'm going to dig very deep, which is interesting under Leo.

Speaker 3: 54:45

Yeah, that's a good time. I'm a little nervous now, though, because I signed this contract like before Leo was elected and I'm super excited about like he's into it and he's a mathematician and all that, but I'm a little nervous that, like if his encyclical comes out on AI, like after my book comes out right before and it's published, I'm like I gotta get that timing right to like you know. I mean, obviously, it's all about making money here.

Speaker 3: 55:04

That's what we're about I'm pulling up the vatican saying yo leo, papa, you got to make sure let's coordinate this baby, let's get this, you know it would be funny if you said something in your book that contradicted the encyclical.

Speaker 2: 55:16

I don't think I will, but like who knows I mean, it's like you know, that's that's the funny thing.

Speaker 3: 55:18

So I don't think I will, but like who knows, I mean it's like you know, that's. That's the funny thing. So.

Speaker 3: 55:22

I don't think it will, because I'm just going to apply Catholic principles to it and like my, my, like my, my written some of it already but like my introduction to this AI book is starts off by saying artificial intelligence is amazing and unsettling and that's kind of like the whole point of the book is like it is. I think people I get, so I don't get frustrated, but it's like kind of weird People kind of discounting what it can do. Oh, we can do a lot. It's amazing what it can do, but at the same time it is unnerving what it can do, like it's weird.

Speaker 2: 55:54

I just know when I try to use Siri and I say diocesan it can't get that out.

Speaker 3: 56:04

Or any diocesan it can't get. Any other word is theories, is the running joke of the ai world. Because it can't, because apple can't do ai, they fail miserably and everybody makes fun of them for it.

Speaker 3: 56:09

But like trying, to say you know how to use ai. Like these chat bots, you can get a lot out of them. I mean, it's and it's a little spooky. You know what the spookiest thing is? The people who develop AI don't know why it's so good. Yeah, they don't even know. And it's like, and I got theories and I won't go to here, but like the point is is like so when my that book, when the novel, comes out, when the book comes out, I got to be back on the show.

Speaker 2: 56:34

Yeah, of course, anytime. You're always welcome, eric. Come on with us, so you always have an open invite anytime you have anything to plug.

Speaker 3: 56:40

so all right, we're gonna go to the other one last thing, though I did note, I did look you are like more than double my subscribers at youtube, so I have to congratulate you.

Speaker 1: 56:50

I'm honestly very surprised he didn't bring that up I I'm.

Speaker 3: 56:54

He's a humble man. We've always known that about you. Want to know something?

Speaker 2: 56:57

subscribers mean nothing, like our viewers are the same.

Speaker 1: 57:00

No one listen to. Anthony. You all mean a lot to us.

Speaker 2: 57:04

They do. You know what it does. It gets you better guests. People will be willing to come on and stuff Our views have been in the same arena for the past year. We get between 5,000 and 10,000 views on every video.

Speaker 3: 57:18

Keep on making sure you focus on talking about matt frad and people like that, and I'm sure you'll keep going up, buddy no no I think it's great, I'm just, I'm just kidding those are.

Speaker 2: 57:27

Those are the ones that always get us the big.

Speaker 3: 57:29

Remember when you passed me and you made a big deal about it and I didn't really pay attention because it's not like I actually watch your show. And so then all of a sudden I saw today, I was like, oh my gosh, look we are, we'll do it on the other side.

Speaker 2: 57:42

Rob, bring us over to the other side, because I'll tell Eric some stuff over there. Let's go over there, hold on. Locals oh also, before you even cut it Locals Thursday. I don't have work Friday, so Locals Thursday is going to be a fun show. Rob and I are going to be drinking some cocktails.

Speaker 1: 57:55

I don't work Thursday or Friday.

Speaker 2: 58:03

I beers deep before we rob a few beers. In the last time I drank on the show we got hawaiian pigeon.

Speaker 1: 58:05

We read the bible in hawaiian pigeon, which was a blast, which was probably blasphemous, but it was funny. All right, take us out, rob, okay. Well, hold on, let me give everyone the link real quick. Subscribe to locals. That's literally all you have subscribe to locals.

Speaker 2: 58:22

I hate we always these this. The youtube feed always goes out on like a.

Speaker 1: 58:26

Just a awkward okay, I'll actually play something real quick, thank you, okay, okay, so um uh, I was gonna say something about.

Speaker 2: 59:14

Uh, I forgot, I don't even care, all right, so the you getting mentioned in that article, um, had you even really been publishing that much a crisis about this topic.

Speaker 3: 59:26

Well, it's just because of a tweet I made and I have enough. I have enough reach on Twitter. I'm still beating you. So there we go. But, like I think I am actually having checked, I have no idea how many followers you have. I just know I was way ahead of you at one point, so I'm hoping I still and that's going to be embarrassing if you're like, I'm at like 26 or something on Twitter and I'm in the forties.

Speaker 3: 59:44

I know that, um, but like I, it was just because I get a reach like some of my tweets to get they go pretty far, and especially ones like that Cause all I said on that one was like Catholics can't support a preemptive uh, you know, basically a preemptive war like this, uh, and nothing to do with I mean, obviously I do with israel bombing iran, but it wasn't like anything to do with israel in particular.

Speaker 3: 1:00:07

But we've run like the funny thing is I've turned down a number of articles that are anti-israel because I felt like, okay, I'm not going to overdo and beat that drum and I'm open to articles that defend israel, but most of my git are so Like, they're just so like theologically a mess like Zionists. I'm like I'm not going to run that Like if somebody wants to defend why America should support Israel from a political standpoint and they write it well and they defend it well, and it's a Catholic, I'm happy to. I would be willing to run that crisis because I think it's a legitimate opinion you can have. But all the stuff I get is just like zionist crap and I'm just like, no, I'm not gonna run that. And I've run anti-zionist stuff and I've had podcasts about it, and so, yeah, I just, and it's funny, I, I, I'm. I've had people that that I know well who have basically like disassociated with me because they say I hate jews, and it's like you've seen what I've said.

Speaker 2: 1:01:04

You know, I'm like pretty mild actually that's what I was gonna say because, like you do see, like look I. I think the like the libertarian approach to just saying, look, I don't think america should fund israel. Like I, I don't see how that's even remotely controversial to me.

Speaker 3: 1:01:20

Like that's what's funny about it is I don't. People are like oh, you trads all hate the Jews. I'm like I didn't come to my views about America supporting or not supporting Israel from my Catholic faith. I'm not saying my Catholic faith doesn't have something to it, it's more from my libertarian political views that I don't think America should support any country and so like. That's why I was against the United States supporting Ukraine. I was against the United States supporting Ukraine. I'm against them supporting Israel. I just wanted to get out of all this stuff. So. But you cannot say that without being called anti-Semite, hating Jews. These days it's okay.

Speaker 2: 1:01:50

So we I used to have like the position where I mean because we were even talking about boomers tonight and stuff like that Like even trying to talk that with my dad is such a difficult thing Like he just has this propaganda that's been run through him because he was so close to the Second World War and you know, you grow up watching Sophie's Choice and you grow up watching Schindler's List and this propaganda just kind of gets like it's so deep in in the older generations. And then what?

Speaker 3: 1:02:20

happens deep in the older generations, and then 9-11 happens. The real danger, the real problem, really, when it comes to this, is that the myth that grew up after World War II. And, just to be clear, I think the Holocaust happened. I don't see any reason to challenge the six million figure. I don't really care about the six million figure as far as the details of what the number exactly is. I think Hitler was off. I'm sorry, but you can't know who.

Speaker 3: 1:02:45

Dietrich von, not Dietrich von Hilderbrand is without being anti-Nazi as a Catholic, I'm sorry. It's just stupid. The Anon accounts that are trying to be based and edgy by being pro-Nazi, like trying to be based and edgy by being pro-Nazi.

Speaker 3: 1:03:07

And Hilderbrand was a, you know, is a giant of the faith of the 20th century and that guy was Hitler's worst enemy and he saw it. So I'm not saying all that. But the point is is that it became this thing where and like and I also think that Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years, and legitimately that's awful. But then it became like they would see any criticism as, oh, that's the first step to the concentration camps. Yeah, and I've had that people write to me where, like, they will acknowledge, okay, maybe what you publish wasn't explicitly anti-semitic, but we know what you're doing is, you're building a base, you're kind of laying the groundwork so that we can have concentration camp someday.

Speaker 3: 1:03:46

And I'm like, well, if that's the case, then what you're saying is literally, the jews can never do anything wrong. No jew, no personal jew, can ever do anything wrong. Israel can never do anything. We can never criticize them. If that's the case. That just that defies logic. That's just ridiculous. So, yes, there is really anti-semitism, but at the same time we got to be able to criticize anybody. What, what?

Speaker 2: 1:04:07

about from a theological standpoint standpoint, though. So you had you have the the jews, because the, the the early church is jewish. It's it. There's basically a schism that happens and the early church is Jewish. There's basically a schism that happens and the early church is Jewish. So some of the. Jews First century.

Speaker 3: 1:04:29

Right by the second century it wasn't.

Speaker 2: 1:04:31

Right after the Ascension you have the original apostles and Peter goes and preaches to the Jews and 3,000 convert on Pentecost.

Speaker 3: 1:04:41

By 90, when John is writing the apocalypse, it's it's already non-jewish by then but yeah, yeah, it's breaking apart because really by the 60, because that's the whole judaism controversy. And the fact is, is that the reason they one of the reasons? I mean the power of the holy spirit is the ultimate reason. But I've seen the early church. There was a comfortable place for people who followed the Mosaic law and still could be part of the church. In fact, most of them early on did that. And then even by the time of like the 50s, james, for example, the Bishop of Jerusalem. He was well known. He was famously. He followed all the prescripts better than anybody. The Jews even said he's the best Jew of us all and he was obviously the bishop of jerusalem until he I think it was around 60 ad is when he was when he was martyred. So you see that.

Speaker 3: 1:05:28

But then of course, that can't last because the mosaic law isn't part of the. You know, following the exact prescription. Mosaic law isn't part of catholicism. So it's going to be dropped and that's going to make a lot of jews, people who are Jewish, who grew up like that. That's a big hurdle for them to drop that. I mean you saw what a big hurdle it was for I mean, paul literally needed to get knocked off his horse to do it. So I think that just was inevitable, you know it's going to break up.

Speaker 2: 1:05:53

Historically, there's this enmity between the Jews who reject the new covenant and reject Christ Right, and that's that story is prefigured in Cain and Abel Right, and that story is prefigured in Jacob and Esau, and that story is prefigured.

Speaker 3: 1:06:10

Oh Genesis. I'm reading Genesis right now. It's all about the younger brother. Exactly, it gets. It gets the covenant provinces promises that the young, the older brother was supposed to get, and it always goes to the younger brother Right, and that's what we found.

Speaker 2: 1:06:24

So now you have this enmity that is built in to the fact that they reject the new covenant and that develops over 2,000 years. Look, we're claiming God chose us, not really. A covenant is obviously open to them and it is available to them, but they fundamentally reject the idea that Gentiles could be part of the covenant with God. Now that develops over 2000 years. Now there is something, because I know it's. I'm not trying to stereotype all Jews in any way, but there is something to that enmity where they want to see Christian civilization fall apart Like they do. There's something about them putting into the world like yes, of course, not all Jews are pornographers and stuff. But there is something too that a majority of pornography is produced by Jews and the majority of banking is Jews, and it's like all of these things do affect Christian culture.

Speaker 3: 1:07:30

I don't think, like I wouldn't say like you kind of made it sound like it's almost like a plot to undermine Christian culture. I think it's more a matter of, if you look just at historical consequences of what's happened, so they are deeply persecuted throughout their entire history. I mean, that's kind of, hopefully is non-controversial, say that, and a lot of, a lot of persecution comes from christians, uh, and so like. But the more important thing is, in the societies they lived in, they had to find ways to survive. Now the one thing is true I don't care, I don't know what this sounds like, but the fact is Jews, disproportionately, are smarter, harder working, you know, than the average person. That's just part of their DNA. And so what happens is they're in these situations in which they're. If you look at, for example, the rise of Hollywood, you see that, like you have two things coming together. You see that you have two things coming together they're in these situations where they need to survive and they need to do jobs that the Christians don't want to do, and they need to get into industries that the Christians are a little bit leery about. And so, for example, hollywood, the early days, that's something a lot of faithful Catholics and Christians were like I don't know about that.

Speaker 3: 1:08:38

And the Jews were like, well, we can succeed at this. So because they're driven to succeed, I mean just all of us are on some level, but I think they have a higher drive to succeed. They're intelligent, they're hardworking, all of that they can get into that. And then you combine that with the fact that, frankly, the modern Judaism when I say modern, I mean like for a long time now, hundreds of years now it's moral code just isn't very good. I mean of years now, it's moral code just isn't very good. I mean there's just no, that's just the fact. It's not like they have the same moral code that we do. So. So the idea of all of a sudden pornography being, you know, kind of an outgrowth of hollywood, I mean there's all, even pornography. We know what I mean. But like you know the films and industry, the way it is industry, and so it just makes it. I don't think you have to have like I always try to look for the simplest explanation and I don't think you have to have a like jewish plot to undermine the.

Speaker 3: 1:09:31

I don't I don't think there's like much as you just like they just fell into these things like pornography because of the fact that they're doing to succeed, they don't have the moral code.

Speaker 1: 1:09:39

We do you, you do have things, though, where, like you know, in the russian empire there are two percent of the population but 20 percent of the bolshevik party and 40 percent of the nkvd officers who committed the the um. Hello to the war.

Speaker 3: 1:09:53

but so okay, then we have the question of okay, what do we mean by a jew? Because so many of them were atheist jews? Yeah, that's, a lot of them were atheist Jews. Yeah, that's true, a lot of them were. And so do we count that against Judaism? No, yeah, I don't know if it has. So much.

Speaker 2: 1:10:07

It's a weird thing. Like what is a Jew? Even? Right, like it's. Because you see, even in today's day, like you get guys like Eric Weinstein and you get Sam Harris, they're like well-known atheists, right. But then when it comes to the zionist project, like they, there's something because, look, the idea of religion is a very catholic idea, right, like the jews are a people more than they're a religion or it's a, it's a. You know, they do have this identity of being jewish, whether they believe the precepts of the faith, they hold or not, More so than probably any religion.

Speaker 3: 1:10:44

Catholicism has that some, but no question Judaism has that more than any other. So even if you're a complete atheist, never went to synagogue in your life. It's your people, yeah you still? Identify as a Jew, and it's like what we were talking about before with Catholic identity. I wish Catholics would be more like that, not that we become atheists and so we act like we're Catholic, but the idea of this is important, that we defend Catholicism, our cultural inheritance right, Our birthright, essentially.

Speaker 1: 1:11:19

But you do have conflicts between your Ashkenazi Jews and the Mizrahi Jews that inhabited the Holy Land prior to the Zionist project.

Speaker 3: 1:11:22

Oh, there's a lot of Jews that are very much against the Zionist project, right.

Speaker 1: 1:11:25

So it's not just a religion or it's so weird, because the Zionist group really is the you know, those who at least were at one time Jewish in in, like the pale of settlement over in eastern europe, like that seems to be their in group, and anyone outside of that group jewish, non-jewish, atheist, whatever you know is outside of that group so, so, okay.

Speaker 2: 1:11:54

So with father maudsley. Conversation with father maudsley made me start thinking about was, um, the he'll straight out say that the state of Israel is Satan's kingdom on earth. Like he'll say that, and at first I was like shocked by that. And it's like, because we've always had the debate. It's like, well, does Israel have a right to exist? And it's like, well, they don't have a divine right. But I would have said, well, they have a natural right to have their own land.

Speaker 2: 1:12:27

But especially in seeing like Eric, you could even see this from the way they manipulate American politicians, right, like they have their fingers in every American politician to the point where it's like you have Ted Cruz coming out and saying they're twisting Bible verses around to say the most insane things to support some of this stuff. So that's something that I had to start thinking. And the other thing, holocaust denial, is something I never would have thought about. Like I would have said, similar to you it's like, why even challenge the six million narrative, why even talk about the Holocaustocaust? Like, well, you're almost defeating your argument, because people then can just kind of put you in a box, in a category. And it's like, but the one thing that unsettled me about it is if I'm not look, there were clearly concentration camps, clearly tons of people died in them. But if that story is twisted in a way after world war ii to make it sound like the, the, the germans had this obsession with, uh, like the some of the stories that come out of, but hitler was obsessed with eliminating.

Speaker 3: 1:13:32

I know he was, I know he was absolutely every german did. I mean it's like the holocaust thing. It's like I just don't get. We know solid catholics who live during the time. I mean, like um, theresa newman, uh, trez the stigmatist. She was very you know she was living in germany with during the rise of it, and she's a stigmatist who just like was just like blows your mind when you hear about her very anti-nazi, understood what they were doing. So like I think you can say, yes, nazis were evil, hitler was evil. They went after the jews.

Speaker 3: 1:14:04

They killed tons and tons and tons of jews all that being said, then we I think you then separate that and say and that does not mean, however, that we can't ever criticize jews to the end of time, and I think that's a better way, because what they want to do is they see the myths that came out that basically you can't criticize, and so, like the younger generation, particularly they they overreact and say okay, now we're going to deny the actual what started it all, which was the holocaust. But I think I just want to go back to what you said, though, about like israel being satan's kingdom. I just don't get that, because have we forgotten how evil the islamic countries are around them? Like I'm somebody who thinks we should not like israel's bad, they're, they're, they're the bad guys, some one of the many bad guys in this story, don't get me wrong. But like you get killed if you say anything about catholicism in saudi arabia.

Speaker 3: 1:14:55

Yeah, but this is, this is no way no, but my point is no, that's the point is why are we pointing out that that israel somehow a special evil like satan's kingdom? Why isn't iran satan's kingdom, or why isn't uh?

Speaker 2: 1:15:09

I think probably because of the potential no, no it might play in the eschaton right, that's exactly like I think that's what we're getting.

Speaker 3: 1:15:17

I think I think the the modern state of israel has nothing to do with the eschaton. I really think it's just. It's just a, it's a state. That just happens as the name, and you might be right.

Speaker 2: 1:15:25

Like I said, like this conversation is because I'm trying to figure out the proper catholic position on it like.

Speaker 3: 1:15:30

I'm not in any way like I'm not even arguing with you, I'm just kind of saying what I've heard and seen. And, like what you said about modsley, like I think that I get nervous. I'll just say it. I get nervous when people do I mean I hate it. Like cruz, like why are you obsessed with the jews at tucker carlson dude? It's like they're doing all the stuff we're not talking about because they were obsessed. But I do think there's some people who are obsessed to choose.

Speaker 2: 1:15:51

I get you look and and the crazy thing is, no, let me say this because anybody who goes down this topic, they get like obsessed with this. It's like bizarre, right? They see Jews everywhere. They see Jews everywhere.

Speaker 3: 1:16:02

Yeah, like a Jew bomb it's like and I've never you don't think like Iran or Saudi Muslim countries wouldn't do exactly what the Jews are doing in America influencing the government if they could. They just don't have a theological fake way of doing it.

Speaker 3: 1:16:18

I mean, you know it was beautiful because the evangelicals were so stupid to buy into all this dispensationalist and stuff that the, the israel was able to take advantage of that. You don't think if there wasn't some evangelical strand that was popular that was like the muslims are going to somehow bring about the coming of christ, you don't think saudi arabia, iran, wouldn't have used that to influence our government?

Speaker 2: 1:16:38

of course. So that's why I just don't get the specialness of the Jews. It's kind of like because of that enmity with the younger brother and the older brother that exists, like I know. I know it's like I know you don't like to think there's ever anything like it's weird when people obsess on the end times and stuff, but it's kind of hard for me to not see what is happening in the world right now as building up to something, especially when, when you see like the Catholic faith kind of collapsing around the world and and then you see Israel taking this stance where they are and oh. And the other thing that Mosley pointed out was the way the story is told after world war two and the Holocaust. It, what it does to the German people, is so like they are, like it destroyed generations of German people because they have this guilt for this thing that's put on them and it also should.

Speaker 3: 1:17:41

In a certain sense. I mean that's, that's what evil does.

Speaker 2: 1:17:44

It also does it to the Jewish people, right, Because the Jews are being told every little thing is also does it to the jewish people, right? Because the jews are being told every little thing is going to lead to the holocaust, right like there's. There's something toxic about the way they tell that story that every jew thinks.

Speaker 3: 1:17:55

If you say anything like, the holocaust is coming literally telling five-year-old kids that your neighbors are probably gonna, that you play with their kids, they'll probably turn us in before long. I mean they're literally telling their kids that a lot of them and I think that is extremely unhealthy. I mean it really warps your whole sense of reality and it's why any criticism of Israel later on becomes these guys want to throw us into camps. It's like, oh my gosh, I have no idea what you're talking about, but it's because from day one, the Holocaust I mean I think there was some type of survey done of Jews where, like, the Holocaust was number one for the most defining characteristics of being Jewish.

Speaker 3: 1:18:32

Was the Holocaust Not belief in one God, not like the Passover, the law or anything. No, it was the Holocaust, and I think. But that it's like that shows how evil works, though that, like Hitler's evil and the fact that germany allowed that evil to happen and all that and allowed it to rise up, is, and really maybe that was kind of paying due for a lot of the actual christian anti-semitism over the centuries. It came due, and so then the result is you do have this backlash the other way and we do need to move away from that, but it's it's. It makes sense to me that you have this building anti-Semitism. That then, just finally, I'm not saying like the Middle Ages is all like one or two anti-Semitic, but there was this anti-Semitism.

Speaker 3: 1:19:17

It exploded in Germany and it was allowed.

Speaker 1: 1:19:20

Why, like? Where did it come from? Why did it explode in Germany?

Speaker 3: 1:19:24

I think that I think it has. That's a great question. I mean, I don't know about Germany particularly, but kind of like, why has there always been anti-Semitism? I think there's a lot of reasons. I think there's theological reasons, that the fact that the Jews if you look at the early church and St John Chrysostom, people like that, talk about this, where the Jews are blamed, they're given a corporate blame for this. And I think that you know, when Catholicism was a dominant religion in the Middle Ages, that no other religion was very welcome.

Speaker 3: 1:19:53

But the Jews always were very industrious and that might be a stereotype, but the truth is they're very.

Speaker 3: 1:19:59

It's like an impressive feature of theirs is how smart they are, industrious, stuff like that, and so they were able to survive.

Speaker 3: 1:20:08

And it's easy then to see them as when something goes wrong, they can be a very much a scapegoat and they do things wrong sometimes like I'm not one of the things, like they've been innocent, like their whole history, but, and so that kind of flares up and then it just and of course lots of things cause nazi germany because with world war one, getting rid of of all the monarchs and all that stuff, it all combined that Hitler was able to rise to power for a lot of reasons, but the Jews were very conveniently located for him to help his rise and to give a rallying cry, and there are consequences of that.

Speaker 3: 1:20:42

So it makes sense to me, historically, to say okay, we have this conflagration where, all of a sudden, the Jews are slaughtered in massive numbers, we have the Holocaust. There's going to be the counter reaction, which is, for at least some period of time, nobody's going to ever say anything against any Jewish person ever, and I think that's understandable. That's human nature. I do think, though, we should be getting to a time, because of the evil Israel is doing.

Speaker 2: 1:21:10

The council, with documents like no sure tete and like just our, just our approach, like, because I, I don't think you can separate I don't know.

Speaker 3: 1:21:35

What do you mean by infiltration, do you are? You say infiltration?

Speaker 2: 1:21:38

that makes me sound like a coordinated effort, like the marxist infiltration was I don't think it was like all jews, but I do think, like what I'm saying, jewish infiltration.

Speaker 3: 1:21:46

I'm asking what you mean by infiltration there because, let me explain, I'll I'll.

Speaker 2: 1:21:50

So I think that there was a Jewish lobby that lobbied, especially after world war two, right, like you have, because you can't take John Paul the second away from his upbringing in in Poland and witnessing those things happening, right. So, like those guys all live through that event and it was so fresh in their mind. And then they're coming into the council, which was originally supposed to be about, you know, whatever it was supposed to be about. And then, all of a sudden, when, when John the 23rd dies, they start redoing all of the all of all the documents before he died.

Speaker 2: 1:22:27

But yeah, yeah, all of all the documents before he died. But yeah, yeah. So now for documents like, even, even look, you even say, like the old evangelization right, our approach to ecumenism, like our approach to how, how we, how we approach other religions. I don't think it was all jews, I think there was a jewish lobby that lobbied the church to get away from this idea that we are the one true church and you know that.

Speaker 3: 1:22:51

I think there were Protestants that were lobbying. I think there was Orthodox or lobbying. I think there was a lot. I mean the Orthodox came from Russia, russian from Russia. The Orthodox Russia came only because they were that the Vatican agreed they would not condemn communism. Because the Vatican agreed they would not condemn communism.

Speaker 3: 1:23:08

I mean that's a far worse thing than any Jewish influence in my mind, because you couldn't even condemn the worst evil going on in the world during a council. That's just ridiculous, just so you could have some Orthodox show up. I mean that's just ridiculous. So that's far worse. So it wouldn't surprise me at all that there was Jewish influence. That's different than infiltration, though. I think it was pricin influence, more pricin influence that really led to things like the decree on ecumenism and like the, the toning down of saying anything, like we're the one true church, saying we just need to dialogue, so yeah, so uh. But I was like here's the thing there didn't need to be jews saying that the the era of the time in the early 60s was. We all feel guilty. It's not just Germany. The whole world feels guilty for what we did to the Jews and to all of Europe particularly. And so you really think in the early 1960s they wouldn't have produced a document that's going to be very friendly.

Speaker 3: 1:24:04

Of course, that's the way it is, you wouldn't have to have a Jew asking, jew asking to do that. They just would naturally be like oh man, we got to do something about this yeah, I think so.

Speaker 1: 1:24:13

You think we changed our good friday liturgy without any pressure I don't know, but I don't think we.

Speaker 3: 1:24:20

My point is we wouldn't have needed pressure from jews to do it. I think just the collective guilt that europeans felt because of the holocaust put pressure. I think catholics, for example, were pressuring the vatican to change the prayers. I think you know, and so I'm not saying jews didn't do some pressure, but I don't think it was like a jewish plot. I'm trying to use the word plot in a in a really over overwrought way. I'm just saying like, right, I think they would have changed that the prayers even without jewish. Even there was, even there was zero jewish influence. Directly, I think they would have, because they just had this collective guilt that they just realized.

Speaker 2: 1:24:58

Oh see, I got it down I still think that there is and I'm not saying all jews, but I do think there is a significant number of Jews who are still awaiting their Messiah and their Messiah. They still want him to be the Barabbas figure. They still want they. They want a Messiah who will conquer the world in the name of Israel. Now, this I'm not. I don't think this is. You know, I'm trying to be careful about how I talk about. That's why we're doing this over here and not on youtube. But I do still think that there is. They are still a people and they still, I mean zionism really is just the new zealotry.

Speaker 2: 1:25:37

Right, they're just the new zealots yeah, like the zealots, but like I, I think in order for there to be this mass conversion of the jews at the end of that, they need to be a people still and that they need to fall for the false Messiah when he comes, for the Antichrist. When he comes, he will be their Messiah and he will turn on them and then there will be this mass conversion at the end of time.

Speaker 3: 1:26:01

I mean that's speculative, there's not like a definitive theological basis for what you just said, but it's not like saying it's absolutely wrong can't happen. I just think that I think that, honestly, there's a mistaken interpretation, common interpretation, of what Paul is saying, that you know about the, you know the conversion of Jews before the end. I think it's more a matter of just like all you know, all people, including many, will come to Christ at the end. Of course, a lot of people will not. There'll be a great falling away and so, like there will be a, but I think that will happen for, like the Orthodox, the Protestants, the, there'll be like a certain incoming of people, muslims, whoever. That will happen and like, yeah, maybe there's a certain special place for the Jews. Of course, there's a big issue, of course, which I'm not honestly, I'm not sure where I feel about the jews today, their religion versus the jews of, like christ time, their religion. There's the whole thing about when the temple left. Then it changes into a different religion.

Speaker 3: 1:27:02

Yeah, and I think it's like yes and no. It I'm not saying it's obviously not identical. Clearly they had to make changes, and radical changes, but it clearly is also the inheritor of the, the judaism of christ's time. I mean there's a direct line where they adapted radically, but they did adapt and but they're still the same people. You know, I mean, it's not like all of a sudden they, they one day all, but they're still the same people. You know what I mean. It's not like all of a sudden they, they one day all say okay, we're going to, we're going to worship a new religion today, over time.

Speaker 3: 1:27:33

They had doctrinal development that was far greater than ours, because of the fact that they had literally the whole system.

Speaker 2: 1:27:40

They had to revamp the whole system. They didn't have a temple anymore.

Speaker 3: 1:27:43

It'd be like all of a sudden, if, if, uh, this can't happen, of course, you know, because of christ's promises, but all of a sudden, if there was no pope anymore, it's like how the orthodox had to kind of revamp their whole system. It's like if the catholic it actually is good analogy. It's like the orthodox, they're the same religion as us in a lot of ways. I, I believe as us, I know, but like the point is they had to revamp things. They'd all of a sudden explain away the pope. Well, it's like far more radical. They did all of a sudden say, well, we don't have a temple anymore, so, whoopsie, we're gonna have to. But I, I don't like that being like you just say, oh it's, it's a completely different religion. I don't think that's true either well, okay, so I also.

Speaker 2: 1:28:19

I also think these topics are able to be disagreed about, right.

Speaker 3: 1:28:25

That's what I said I started off with like I don't really know the answer. Yeah, I'm just saying personally, I think it's somewhere between it's the exact same religion and it's a completely different religion.

Speaker 2: 1:28:35

It's somewhere in there there's something, I'm not sure where it is. When paul talks in romans he says all israel will be saved. Like there's an aspect of that where during the uh, when the, when the northern kingdom breaks away from the southern kingdom and the 10 tribes are kind of like dispersed amongst the nations, like they are so much a part of the nations that they're basically gentiles at that point. So bringing the gentiles in is actually saving israel because of the jews who were dispersed amongst the nations. So there's an aspect of that involved there too. But I still I don't know the way I read the story and the way it just that enmity between those who reject Christ and the fact and even Benedict talked about this, he said the fact that you're still a people shows that god still like god still has a plan for you in salvation. But that plan doesn't necessarily mean a good thing. It's not about them being yeah, I mean I think they play a role in the end of time.

Speaker 3: 1:29:37

I mean, it could be just as much as clearly it's one of only two divinely revealed religions. I mean the origins, because judaism obviously was divinely revealed in its origins. Now debate about whether or not, how much they maintain that today, that's one thing, but I think just that alone tells you that it's going to last until the end of time. I really think Judaism will last till the end of time.

Speaker 2: 1:29:59

I mean, I don't think, islam necessarily will, but I think Islam is going to play a role in the Eschaton too, though, because I think there's a link between Our Lady appearing in Fatima and Fatima being Muhammad's daughter, and I think there's going to be a link there too.

Speaker 3: 1:30:18

If not to the Eschaton, then to the reign of the Immaculate Heart. Maybe I don't think there's necessarily. I'm not saying it won't happen, but I see no reason to think that there's any like theological reveal or anything like that reason that Islam necessarily will be. I think Islam could just die out one day because-.

Speaker 2: 1:30:33

Or they could be used as a tool of chastisement, like God used the Assyrians against Israel?

Speaker 3: 1:30:38

Yeah, but I think what my point is is that there's no theological reason, just from scripture or even the tradition, to think that Islam itself, itself, will play a role in the end times, whereas I do think there's. There's a reason to believe jews will, the jew, jewish israel will, but like I'm just saying that I don't. I'm not convinced that that means modern, the modern state of israel will, it will have the people, people the jewish people will it could be.

Speaker 3: 1:31:05

It could be 10 000 years from now in the modern state is Israel could have been done for 9,999 of those thousand years. It's like I admit I'm always. I'm never a big end times guy.

Speaker 2: 1:31:18

I know, no, I know that.

Speaker 3: 1:31:20

I don't know if it's because I've read a lot of history and I've seen how many times people get into the end times stuff and they always are wrong.

Speaker 1: 1:31:26

And this is probably an aspect you were saying how the church has been.

Speaker 3: 1:31:28

Like you were saying how the faith has been lost in the church. That's true. Look at the 10th century. That was a disaster for the Catholic faith and I bet you a lot of people thought 1000 came. Actually there was a couple people who did think that. But the point is is that, like it was a it was far day, there have been popes that have been. I mean so there's been these, these terrible times and I would understand why catholics at that time like this is probably the lord's coming back, so it can't get any worse than this. But then it rebounds.

Speaker 2: 1:31:54

It recovers oh, it could get way worse, but I, I do think I'm saying we can rebound and recover.

Speaker 3: 1:32:01

And you know, in 100 years we have like. In my novel I'm writing we could have a church that's dominant again. So yeah, all right.

Speaker 2: 1:32:08

Look, this was something I always did kind of want to talk and flesh out with you a little bit, because I think, like I don't want to go down the groper route where it's like you're just that's the whole. Thing to think about, but I also do think there's a theological significance to some of this stuff that does need to be discussed.

Speaker 3: 1:32:25

I do and I agree, I agree I some of this stuff that does need to be discussed. I do and I agree, I agree I I'm not a fan of E Michael Jones and like, oh wait, let me ask you about that.

Speaker 2: 1:32:33

So you don't think there's something to his. His thesis I don't know, I haven't read a lot of E Michael Jones, but I know he has his thesis is basically that when the Jews reject Christ, christ, they reject the logos and they have this revolutionary spirit, which is why they're kind of behind all of the major revolutions that have happened throughout history. So you think you don't think there's anything to that yeah, I reject that.

Speaker 3: 1:32:56

Yeah, I just I think he's just looking for ways to blame the jews for everything. Frankly, I mean, I'm not saying they're it's like what. It's like what um rob mentioned about, like you know, the the jewish influence on, like the russian revolution. I'm not saying there weren't Jews involved, but like they're atheist Jews. What does that mean? I'm not saying that it doesn't mean anything, but I just mean like and like the idea that they're behind every revolution.

Speaker 3: 1:33:19

A lot of times you look back and you're like actually they weren't that influential and it's not like Jews ran the Russian revolution. That's just simply not true. In fact, the Jews were killed by Stalin and wiped out a lot of them.

Speaker 1: 1:33:32

And so it's like Well, because Trotsky was a Jew and Stalin hated Trotsky.

Speaker 3: 1:33:35

Well, that was definitely didn't help things for the Jews, that's for sure. But the point is, though, is like I've just when I read these histories it's not as neat and tidy as people make them out to be Like the Jews are behind every revolution type of thing, and they have this revolutionary spirit. I think that is just. You're fitting these square pegs in these circle holes to say, okay, I start with the thesis that the Jews are the bad guys of history, and then I will fit them in, and it's not. It's not that Jews haven't done a lot of bad things in history, so have Christians, but it's like.

Speaker 2: 1:34:09

That's why I find your position so interesting, because it's like you're, like you're okay, man, I think that's. I think it's good that Dave Smith and Daryl Cooper and these guys are starting to have these conversations, because I do. I think it starts with like okay, what the hell are we doing as america, just like footing the bill for all these crazy things? Or like I, I do think that 9-11 was a way to drag us in to go and fight all of israel's enemies, things like that. Um, but I, I really am still grappling with the theological significance of the jewish people and I'm not, you know it, it's I kind of do I separate, though, like, the theological.

Speaker 3: 1:34:53

I'm not completely separating it, but I do separate the theological significance of the jewish people, which is a real thing I mean calvary's been talking about for 2 000 years, and the modern state of israel, which is fundamentally a secular state. That it's an ethno state a lot, but it's, it's really a secular. It's so like. I don't necessarily think there is any theological connect, there's no like, just like. That's why I reject catholic zionism, because catholic zionism is this theological idea that we have to support the jews because of their place in salvation history, and it's complete and I reject that wholeheartedly.

Speaker 3: 1:35:27

Well, it's also rejecting it's misinterpreting the scriptures to oh yes that they, like the catholic zionists, are actually saying that the jews returning to israel is part of god fulfilling some of his promises in the old testament I would say that, like what maybe you're proposing, but more maybe the more radical, maybe even what e michael jones, maybe even father mosley, is saying, I feel like it's in some ways the flip side of the same coin as the zionists, in that they're trying to say there's all this theological meaning behind the modern state of israel that we then have to oppose it on these theological grounds, like you know, just because it exists, because the jews are the enemies of Christ and all that stuff, I'm just like no, israel is just a bad actor and we should not support them, and that's like there doesn't have to be a theological I mean the theological reasons of just morale, basic morality that we don't support.

Speaker 2: 1:36:19

I think it's an important part of the story, though, like when I, when I see Christian, the story of Christianity, like I don't, don't know, man, it's, it's a very big part of the story and it's like like this should never make anybody like have animosity towards jewish people like you should, it's. It's nothing like that.

Speaker 3: 1:36:38

Like I just, I honestly I think that the history of the modern state of israel is far more dominated by politics and religion. It's, I really don't think, and so that that's why I don't, that's why I kind of reject this idea of going too deep theologically in the meaning of the modern state of israel. I think it's just a state that's arisen that has, like, done a lot of bad things, a lot of bad things, and we should not support whatsoever. Um, but, and and oh, by the way, they're jews there. I mean, that's kind of how I looked at it. Like you know, they're also jews and it's not.

Speaker 2: 1:37:10

Yeah, okay, so all right, we'll wrap this up in a minute or two, but you have, you have. It's like the only place on earth where you're allowed to have an ethnic national state where, like even I never saw. I never bought into the idea that open immigration was, um about votes for democrats. I always thought it was a way to destabilize us so that we wouldn't have a common culture. Because I think that some very powerful jews saw that when, when germany had a very powerful ethno state and they saw nationalism like that, that there are very dangerous people. But when they were, when they were battling countries in the middle East, they were like, oh well, these Muslims hate these Muslims, these ones hate these Muslims, like they're way easier to conquer. And I think that there are I'm not, it's not all Jews, I just do think there are very powerful people who their motives in open immigration and all these NGOs doing all this stuff is to destabilize the West, so they'll be easy to conquer, and I think I mean.

Speaker 3: 1:38:20

The fact is, I have no problem with an ethno state and I have no problem. I have no problem, bunch of Jews could do it. They want to form a country somewhere, not necessarily where I don't either. As long as problem if England was like okay, if you're not of English descent, you can't, you can't live here. That's totally. I think that's totally right and just. There's nothing uncatholic about that. The problem is, in America, what is our freaking culture, what is our ethno state or whatever that's? The problem is we don't have one. We don't have a unifying force, and so like we draw a line who's not allowed in, like I'd be fine if we said no muslims are ever allowed to to immigrate here, or something like that. But it's like, where is the? What is the common culture that we're all supposed to embrace? We just don't have one. I mean that's the problem with america we don't even have.

Speaker 2: 1:39:23

we don't even have a united pop culture anymore, because everything's so fragmented on the internet Like you used to be able to go into work at the water cooler and talk about Seinfeld the episode. Now everybody's watching their own thing.

Speaker 1: 1:39:34

There's really nothing that unites us. I draw the line at Naples. Everything south of Naples they don't get to come in North of. Naples is fine yeah it.

Speaker 3: 1:39:44

Just, you know, because we have such a mix up here of people that it's like who I mean? I think it almost has to be based upon religion. At that point it has to be okay If you're not Christian. You know, you're, you know or something. But obviously we have a long ways to go to get to that.

Speaker 1: 1:40:02

Sorry.

Speaker 3: 1:40:02

Mormons, we get Utah I don't care. I'm fine giving them Utah.

Speaker 1: 1:40:08

Just stay there and we'll break that off. Stay in.

Speaker 2: 1:40:10

Utah, eric, this was fun man. I appreciate you coming on. Go get moral money guys. Eric, are you alright if I post the locals clip On my subscriber side of Twitter, because I have subscribers?

Speaker 3: 1:40:21

I was half expecting you to put my worst thing. Put it on Twitter.

Speaker 1: 1:40:25

I already clipped the whole. I support an ethnostate part. So don't worry, I did a podcast not long ago thing. Put it on Twitter. I already clipped the whole. I support an ethnostate part.

Speaker 3: 1:40:31

I did a podcast not long ago where I basically said something to the effect that's okay, no, I don't care, that's fine.

Speaker 2: 1:40:35

Okay, yeah, I mean I don't think you said anything bad. If anybody's going to get in trouble, it's going to be me, but I work for family and I really can't get in trouble, so I'm not worried.

Speaker 1: 1:40:43

Must be nice but, I'm allowed to say.

Speaker 3: 1:40:47

I mean, nobody ever tells me what to say a crisis. It's always I saw where somebody was like saying something like oh yeah, just catholic media can't say this, because where the bills are paid, I've literally never once been told what to say a crisis once. I don't even know who my donors are. I've I I know like one or two big donors like I, but they've never said anything to me. I just know them because I had to write a thank you letter to them if they're over a certain amount, but I have no communication with them. I don't know. We need big donors.

Speaker 2: 1:41:14

Rob, when are we getting big donors?

Speaker 1: 1:41:16

When you stop talking probably.

Speaker 3: 1:41:19

Maybe if you're nice to the Bitcoin billionaires.

Speaker 2: 1:41:23

Eric, good luck with the book. When your next one comes out, please reach out. We'll have you back on, brother.

Speaker 3: 1:41:27

Thank, you very much. Thanks, man.

Speaker 2: 1:41:28

Take us out, Rob.

Speaker 1: 1:41:31

Later If the button works. Thank you.