Softening Our Trad Hearts to Leo XIV?

The Catholic world has been thrown into a whirlwind of emotions following the unexpected election of Pope Leo XIV. This episode captures the raw, unfiltered reactions of faithful Catholics as they process what this papacy might mean for the Church.

When white smoke appeared during the fourth scrutiny—much earlier than anticipated—Catholics everywhere experienced a complex mixture of surprise, concern, and hope. We delve into the fascinating psychological and spiritual journey many traditional Catholics experienced: from initial apprehension about Cardinal Prevost's connections to progressive figures in the Church, to a growing desire to embrace and support the new Holy Father.

The conversation explores profound questions about Catholic identity in turbulent times. What does proper loyalty to the Pope look like when concerns about doctrine exist? How do we balance filial devotion with fidelity to established Church teaching? When does legitimate concern become detraction, and when does silence become complicity?

At the heart of the discussion is a touchingly honest admission: "I want to love the Holy Father, dude. I think we all just miss being Catholic and loving the Pope." This sentiment captures the yearning many Catholics feel after years of tension and division within the Church.

The episode also examines potential "litmus tests" for Pope Leo XIV's pontificate, particularly regarding controversial aspects of his predecessor's teaching like Amoris Laetitia. While some focus on doctrinal clarity as paramount, others highlight the cultural importance of liturgical traditions like the Latin Mass in forming future generations of faithful Catholics.

Throughout the conversation runs a thread of cautious hope—not naive optimism, but a genuine desire to see healing and restoration in the Church under this new shepherd. Whether you're feeling confusion, concern, or excitement about this new chapter in Catholic history, this discussion offers thoughtful perspectives to help navigate these uncharted waters.

Sponsored by Recusant Cellars, an unapologetically Catholic and pro-life winery from Washington state. Use code BASED at checkout for 10% off! https://recusantcellars.com/

Chapters

• 1:54 Unexpected White Smoke
• 20:54 Debating Initial Reactions to Pope Leo
• 35:32 The Litmus Test for the New Papacy
• 55:11 Benefits of Latin Mass and Catholic Culture
• 1:08:53 Addressing Amoris Laetitia and Church Doctrine
• 1:30:13 The Nature of Catholic Brotherhood
• 2:05:12 Finding Hope Amid Uncertainty
• 2:27:30 Reconciliation Between Catholic Voices
• 2:38:45 The Long Game for Church Renewal

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:57

Shit, this is really not letting me. Hey, there we go, we're live.

Speaker 2: 1:02

Are we, we're live. Oh wow, we're live without an intro video. That's so weird.

Speaker 1: 1:06

What's up?

Speaker 2: 1:07

y'all, can you guys?

Speaker 1: 1:09

hear us, are we?

Speaker 2: 1:11

Oh no.

Speaker 1: 1:13

All right, so Rob's going to come back in.

Speaker 2: 1:15

That's the most avoiding Babylon thing ever, the worst intro we've ever done. We usually have a. I was waiting for the music to kick on and stuff all right. So wait, I gotta text rob and tell him we're live that's so funny.

Speaker 1: 1:28

You guys can hear us right. Let us know in the chat. Okay, good, you guys awesome, um.

Speaker 2: 1:35

So now, yesterday, um was an emotional day. It was crazy because I don't think anybody was expecting smoke to come out that early. Like you and I were texting and we were like I was like, all right, so Tim's coming on tonight. Tim was supposed to come on with black smoke and I left it off with him. I'm like, all right, if we get black smoke you'll come on, if it's white smoke, you'll do your thing, I'll do my thing. So then when we got white smoke, I assumed he wasn't going to come on. So I texted you and I'm like, hey, we're going to go on. And then tim texted me back and he's like, oh, no, dude, I'm available still, let's go on. So then I had to text you back. I'm like, oh, tim's coming on, you're not coming.

Speaker 2: 2:15

So it happened at like 11, 30 and as soon as it happened it was the fourth scrutiny and everybody's hearts dropped and we were all like, oh no, this is bad. And uh, rob's coming, Hang on. Yeah, I don't know what happened, rob, but we got to go live. So, um, like 10, uh, 1130, that white smoke comes and everybody's hearts drop and they're like, my gosh man, what is this? This can't be good. They didn't even take that long to go. So then there were three names I was concerned with, and Prevost was one of them and we went through this whole show yesterday and I explained all that and it was because of the things I heard leading up to it. I kind of blame Edward Pentonon a little bit releasing that article, because that put me on high alert. Is that maddie or eggy maddie, right? Yeah, um, so when I'm not really blaming edward penton, it was my own doing but, um.

Speaker 2: 3:15

So once we see it's prevos, like the freaking information just starts flooding in and it's just doom. And I'm watching live streams throughout the day and I'm seeing people's reactions raw because everybody was surprised by this. So it wasn't like it wasn't like anybody had time to like research and then go on and present a reasoned argument. It was just everybody's hearts dropped. We were like, oh my goodness, it's an American and he's from Chicago and he's got this in his past and it looks like they set it up for a long time, like it was just so much information came out. So we jumped on last night and it was very doom and gloom. And, uh, after Tim left the show, rob and I hung out with the audience for like another hour and I think like right away it started hitting me a little bit. But when I, when I went to bed last night, it just like, like really hit me. And the thing is Rob didn't want to come on and I should have trusted his instincts, because we're so used to just coming on and firing off our opinions, but when you have raw emotion like that and something's so important, like it would have been wise to hold off, but everybody wants to be the first person to react like it's the. That's the stupid world we're in now. Right, yeah, now the thing is we didn't say anything untrue yesterday, like it's not, like we lied, like these were all actual facts that came out. So we presented them, and part of me is happy we did, because I think it should give people like a reasonable um caution as we go into this.

Speaker 2: 5:01

But I woke up this morning. I went into work at like 2.30 this morning, at an early start, and I was just thinking about it all morning, and then around like 8 or 9 am, I just said I tweeted out. I said yesterday a lot of us criticized Cardinal Robert Prevost, but today we should all be praying for Pope Leo the 14th, and I said that without like checking what everybody else was doing. And then, like, as the day went on, I just started watching one by one, all the trads kind of softening their hearts to this whole thing and just going. You know what Like there's? Because I know what we said on the show yesterday with Tim especially. It was like he's going to give these gestures and you're going to soften your heart. And then it's about coalition building and all this stuff.

Speaker 2: 5:51

But there's something about being Catholic where you're just like I want to love the Holy father, like with all my heart I want to love the Holy father and I think every Catholic has that instinct. So probably would have been wise to just chill out a little bit yesterday yeah, sort of rushing on to be the first one on. So I'm going to actually just apologize, not because of what I said was wrong, but because I didn't even give the new Pope a chance. And what would it be? It's not because it wasn't Calumny, because none of it was untrue, but is it detraction where you're just sullying the person's name? It could be scandal.

Speaker 1: 6:37

Yeah, it could be some rash judgment and some scandal. It could be some rash judgment and some scandal Because it's like, yeah, if it's like impromptu, if the passions are flowing and you're just trying to be the first one on, it can be a little bit spotty.

Speaker 2: 6:52

So it's not Okay. So what I'm saying is I still think it was smart to do, it was still smart to get the information out there, because this is all true, all this stuff, um, I'm getting texted, um I just wanted to stop and say, yeah, yeah I got it I got it.

Speaker 2: 7:20

My, I'm gonna catch crap I took. I took I took 100 phone calls today about this stuff and it's like what is the? What is the? Uh, the position you want to take going into this thing? I don't think anything we said was wrong yesterday. I think everything we said was true, like literally everything. We know where this guy came from, uh, but I still want to love the holy father. It's just a catholic instinct. Yeah, I don't, I don't know what to do about it, like I don't. I definitely I said right from the bat I don't ever want to be like opposition to the pope on our channel. So it's uh, yeah, I don't know. Man, it is kind of interesting to watch everybody just going all right, we're going to Tim's texting me. I don't, you want to go on. It's not that, it's that I don't want to be the one riling up people to anger against the Pope.

Speaker 1: 8:25

No, I think I mean here here is my take about it, you know. First let me just say this I've never like actually as a practicing Catholic, got to see white smoke go off. So that just feeling of watching it live and finally seeing the white smoke go off, that was just another level of, I think, like Catholic joy. That's kind of unique.

Speaker 2: 8:44

You know what I'm saying. Yeah, that was your first conglomerate. All right, listen, I got to let Tim come on because he was on with us yesterday, so I'm going to send Tim the link because I want to hash this out with him on air. So I don't know if you want to stay. I think you can. I mean, you want to stay, I think?

Speaker 1: 9:03

you can. I mean, I don't want to make you feel like you can't. I mean you. I mean, yeah, stick around. I'm probably only going to give positive things to say, yeah, that's fine, I understand that.

Speaker 2: 9:08

But I want tim to come on, because I don't want it to be me backpedaling and stuff, but I want to actually talk about this honestly. So I sent tim the link. Let's see him pop on. Uh, I'm not pope's planning. Are you guys kidding me? All right, here's tim. Tim texts me. This is the gayest thing you've ever said. All right, I'm trying to figure this out, tim, because me and you talked earlier and I said straight out to you I'm like I don't know, something just feels wrong about like just not loving the pope, so I don't know what. What is your take on this?

Speaker 3: 9:39

I just want to know one, one false thing you said, or you said you didn't give the Pope a chance. I was on with you and we were both like bro, I hope he's good. I hope he's good. All indications are he's not good. I agree with that. Well, but this is when people get carried away. This is what Aristotle calls a few and a many problem. Get carried away. This is this is, uh, what aristotle calls a few and a many problem. The many want palliative cliches, or they want which can take the form of being positive palliative cliches, often in trad world, can take the form of negative statements. That's my thing on my channel is always just truth, straight line to truth but what about what?

Speaker 2: 10:20

what about the um? Because they were always accusing us of violating that canon law where we're like riling up opposition to our bishop or something like I was like canon 13 or something. They were like you always heard lofton accusing us of that and stuff like that. I don't know exactly which one it is, but it's like if we're, if we're coming out, because it was very raw yesterday and I think we were like holy crap, man, this thing is going bad and they got their guy.

Speaker 3: 10:47

Like I still think all that they got their guy so yeah, you're not schizophrenic, I mean, yeah, it's just a fact. We, we found out what I likened to it on my show. Uh, what I likened it to on my show today is the difference between evidentiary and dispositive in law. So some evidence is merely evidentiary. You're building a case slowly, and then some evidence is comes over the top and it's just dispositive a smoking gun all at once. If I left my house and I can't remember, if I left a faucet running and I'm freaked out and I've been gone for eight hours, oh no, it's the faucet running and I'm rounding the band. I literally have to round a corner to come back to my house. The the this is typically how it works at law.

Speaker 3: 11:32

The less, the more approximate, less precise evidence is what you tend to get first. So like you round the corner of your house and you're literally just looking at the front door for evidence of the worst thing, like is water pouring out my front door? Did I ruin my, my gem? And you don't see that at first? But but that's not dispositive. Then you go in the house and you're like, okay, it was an upstairs faucet, I don't see water down here. That's pretty good, that's a little better, better. Now I'm mounting the steps. Now I'm getting closer to the thing. I don't hear the faucet on. That's getting to be better and better non-dispositive evidence. Until you go in there and you look at the faucet you thought you left on. Then it's dispositive, that's.

Speaker 2: 12:12

That's all that was happening yesterday we're looking at things as we're coming, as we're coming up on the main event, we're saying, okay, this is the stuff you're looking like, you're looking to see if the kitchen's flooded first, you're looking to see if it's pouring out the front door. So I don't think, like I still think it was important to get that stuff out, to give people a reasonable expectation of what's to come Like. I really think there's, because hopium, like you said yesterday, cope Springs Eternal.

Speaker 2: 12:38

Like hopium is a powerful drug man and when I'm watching it online today, I'm watching everybody. Just like it's a very strange thing to watch everybody. Just go, all right, we're behind this and we don't know anything about him yet. So I didn't make any kind of statements like that. I was just like, all right, let's just like. I had no problem saying what I said about Cardinal Robert Prevost. But there's something about when, the, when the Cardinal becomes the Pope, he becomes a new man, and I want to give the Pope, who has not done anything at this point, the chance to at least be a Pope and and prove himself as a Pope.

Speaker 3: 13:16

Well, no, he doesn't become a new man. He, he's, literally he's, he's now, he has a new man. He's literally he's now. He has a new office. He quite literally, in all relatable senses, doesn't become a new man. He's only been Pope for a day, and so we're going to wait and see. There's no dispositive evidence, and so I still hope against hope, cope against cope, that he'll be the best Pope ever.

Speaker 2: 13:37

I hope that he becomes the royal. We, though, like he, does become something new. He he's.

Speaker 3: 13:44

He's no longer I, but we so like when a pope releases a statement, he says we declare it's like he's speaking on behalf of Christ himself at that point as well sorry, I'm just an Aristotelian and and we're going to go through the dynama and the, the as anthropo, anthropologically, he still has the exact same will, the same intellect, the same rules of the Holy Spirit, promising never to overwhelm our intellect or our will. Abide they obtain. And so there's no guarantee that any one pope will not be a bad man. And he is the same.

Speaker 3: 14:18

And the fact of the matter is he's lived 69 years and there are a lot of indicators on this guy. His big two cardinal kingmakers were Cupich and Maradiaga. Unless you, that's a big tell, that's not dispositive, it's very evidentiary. These guys do not make mistakes. Maradiaga was the Pope Francis kingmaker. Who were his non-cardinal uh pushers? James martin and um, the, the, the nuncio, the, the currently very left nuncio, and then austin ivory. So those five that's. I don't. I have no apology for anything I said yesterday which was solely reducible to uh-oh, uh-oh.

Speaker 2: 14:58

This is really bad, I'm not, I'm not sorry for saying what we said because it was untrue. I felt it's not like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. It's more like I had like this weird guilty feeling that's called the mob, that's called the mob. Nobody was saying anything. We got off the show and I went to bed.

Speaker 3: 15:16

Like I felt this over and over between the morning. Last night Brian Holdsworth, even eric sammons these guys are virtue signaling more than a air traffic controller man.

Speaker 2: 15:28

Here's the thing when, when we're doing that.

Speaker 3: 15:31

It's pathetic.

Speaker 2: 15:32

It's pathetic I watched eric sammons, uh, kennedy and flanders, like I I did feel like they weren't being honest I'm not and I love those guys, I'm not knocking them Like it felt like dishonest in a way it's. And there was even today seeing certain guys coming out and saying things and I'm like you guys are laying it on pretty thick man. It's like can we? I understand cautious optimism and it really is like the the um, mimetic desire, right, like you don't want to be the one person alone going against the crowd, but I, but I still want to love the Holy father.

Speaker 2: 16:15

Like I don't know how, I don't know what the proper, like I'm struggling through to figure out what the what the right thing to do is here. Because I'm struggling through to figure out what the right thing to do is here because I want to be a good In a just world. The right thing to do is love the Holy Father and not speak ill of him. But we've been through 12 years of just I think Steph tweeted it from your account to say we all have Pope Traumatic Stress for from 12 years of just being beaten over the head, right. So it's like your instinct is to stay in that mode. But should we take a lighter stance on this? I don't, I don't, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 16:51

In a just world, there's one thing that matters and it's the truth and it's in. The truth is a person, and we never have to negotiate. If you, if you say I want to do truth plus, I want to lay it on a little thick, that's called lying, that's optimism and it's also inaccuracy. If you go the other side and you go I want to do, which everyone was accusing me of on Twitter, I don't appreciate it very much. I want to do truth minus, I want to leave off some, some palliative true facts about this guy. That's lying, that's inaccuracy. I want the exact truth, as this iceberg is becoming clear and clear. And guess what, anthony, this one shouldn't this pontificate, should not take three, four, five, six years to start telling, to start deciphering. Whether it's good or not. I give him a week, maybe a couple weeks, but there is one clear litmus test for him and it is Amoris Laetitia. It is so we have Jesus versus Pope Francis because, remember, pope Francis was not able because of the Americans, which is why this guy got elected, the right-wing Americans. Francis never knew how to deal with the pushback. It was slower than he and McCarrick and the mysterious Italian gentleman thought he would be able to proceed with those four Gaul and agenda items. He got to one of them. He couldn't ever get to two, three or four, and the one item was Amoris Laetitia, chapter eight, together with the response to the Argentine bishops in September of 2016,.

Speaker 3: 18:22

You have the only correct interpretation. What was that correct interpretation? I, pope Francis, imright adult. You know. Remarriage after divorce is not adultery. Jesus is wrong. That's the proposition it stands for very directly, very linearly. I don't care how nice this Pope is, I don't care how much gold he has on his ring or any of that stuff. That's all. I was talking about this with another friend I won't name who it is. That's called trading. I want the Latin mass, but I don't want the Latin mass traded for homo stuff. I don't want the Latin mass being here to stay or homo stuff.

Speaker 3: 19:02

I don't want the latin mass no, of course not morris letizia being here to stay. That's the litmus test, and if he's a good guy, it'll be within the first month he has to tend to it. If not, he's a bad guy.

Speaker 2: 19:10

It's that simple okay, so you're a um, a moral foundation and truth guy before a practice. So, like your, your, your thing is are those which, of course, we all should be like, obviously, like where I would say those gestures of um, of, of at least signaling, like gestures of goodwill. Shouldn't we respond with goodwill in in the beginning, like I, like? I think a big thing is he should respond to the dubia right off the bat, because that would clear everything up.

Speaker 3: 19:46

Right, it's because it can't be faked or traded. Can him say yes?

Speaker 2: 19:51

or no. What the dubia questions are yes or no?

Speaker 3: 19:56

Yes or no, but he wouldn't fake or trade upon them, because that stands for the entire proposition of him being a good guy. Will you undo what needs to be undone about Francis? Can he chant a few things in Latin? Because the Golan guys are like these American trads are idiots. Say a couple sentences in Latin and they will worship you. Yes, because of Pope traumatic stress disorder. Yes, so he can give that without giving up any of the ghost man, and that's why that's not the litmus test.

Speaker 2: 20:28

Yeah, Okay, so your thing is just the main thing with Francis, so it's like he has to go back to that. But I mean there are so many of those things that need to be corrected that you could even go back.

Speaker 3: 20:44

There's really only one. There's only one that throws our church into a constitutional crisis and it's Amoris Laetitia, chapter 8. That's the only one that really throws our church into a constitutional crisis and, conveniently, it's the only gall and agenda item that Francis actually got to because he had to go so slow. So it's, it's a tell praxeologically, the latter point, and it's a tell um it and it's just most important constitutionally as a kind of first thing. You got first thing and second thing there. That's why it's the ultimate tell and I will, I will call this guy the best Pope ever If he comes out and does it. I just think because, like you said, anthony, people are being mimetically dishonest today. They're mimetically lying, they know he's not.

Speaker 2: 21:31

I don't know.

Speaker 3: 21:32

They know he's probably not going to do that. He's probably Mara Diaga's man, all right.

Speaker 2: 21:38

I'll tell you what I think is actually happening. I don't think it's even memetic desire. I think that trads understand part of the reason Traditionis came down was because of the opposition and we all gravitated towards the Latin mass Right. So if we're still the opposition like we were, we're hoping for those gestures and then we want to see it continue on and then go into some of the major problems in the doctrinal issues of Francis. But we would like to at least not be seen as the opposition from the jump to this guy, because then you're like I don't, you're setting yourself up to challenge the pope from day one, saying's the he's the pick of the saint cala mafia and things like that, which I don't even deny. But I also don't want to be the reason that there aren't those gestures given and that maybe there can be some, some goodwill between the parties, like if we're setting ourselves up as the proponents to the papacy right from the get-go that's just such honestly convolution.

Speaker 3: 22:45

Anytime we're talking and someone starts saying, well, this might be true, but what if it's seen this way, then you kind of have to go into subjuncted reality. And well, it's true, but it's seen this? I I don't. I don't know how to reason. I don't reason like that think about what I'm saying.

Speaker 2: 22:58

I'm saying it's like we start this papacy off and we're already going at the guy for things he did before he even became Pope. Like I don't see how any groundwork gets laid for anything if we are already in that position. That's all I'm saying. I think, like what we did yesterday, it's like okay, this is the guy they gave us, he was their choice, he is this. Like every single thing you talked about leading up to that conclave was true, like you, not even specifically about him, just what they were going to do. There is the clues of the brother giving the interview, saying that he knew he was going to be the pick a day after Francis passed. We do know that he was Austin Ivory's guy and Father James Martin's guy. We know all of this. So we know who the guy is. We get that information out. But I think there has to be some kind of a like all right, we're going to, we're going to back off, we're going to accept you as, but will you, are you going to be the St?

Speaker 3: 24:08

Gallen guy, or are you going to start going in and correcting some of these errors? Okay, but so that's why the epistemic ground for this conversation needs to center around. You said you think he becomes a new man when he's pope. I I say he's very. He's the same man. He literally the strongest left position he has, aside from the fact he's very anti-death penalty is um.

Speaker 3: 24:19

The 2014 family synod had this argument that broke out in one of the Turkoli minori. I don't know if you remember this, but it was, if we do, an eventual Amoris Laetitia. This is what the Africans, like Sarah, were saying. You're talking about doctrinal authority to local or national bishops, conferences on natural law questions, and Cardinal Casper goes yes and Pope Francis ended up saying yes. So in other words, two and two is four. In Poland, if you cross the border into Germany, two and two equals five, and the Africans and some of the Asians shut it down until Amoris Laetitia.

Speaker 3: 24:59

This current new Pope has weighed in very strongly on said question. He said doctrinal authority needs to inhere in the local bishops. This is synodality. This is the strongest left position he has and it's the most important one. And he weighed in on fiducia supplicans, but it applies across all.

Speaker 3: 25:20

Like I'm a, I'm a, I'm a moral philosopher, I'm working on a doctorate in action theory. This is catastrophe at the highest level. If two and two cannot be four in Poland and two and two be five in Germany, nor can something constitute murder in Poland but not murder in God's eyes in Germany. And this was the most toxic poison of Francis, and you know who said so, benedict. It's the worst poison in the world. It's relativism. And this Prevost, strongly, everywhere, in multiple documents, has said this is what I believe. And also he's the prefect for the Dicastery of bishops who made an enemy out of the only bishops in the american, in the usccb, who had my position no two or everywhere, and he's the guy that got him. So he's. He's the hitman. Sorry man, he's not a new man. Now maybe a miracle can happen and he can turn over a new leaf. New leaf, possible new man.

Speaker 2: 26:22

That's fairy tale stuff yeah, I'm not saying I'm not look, I'm. I'm not saying new man in that respect. I'm saying with the office comes grace. And because we've seen this before, where they think they elected a liberal and then what winds up happening is the the guy becomes the most like he, like I think it was pious the ninth they elected thinking he was a progressive, and he comes in and he winds up being like the most based pope ever.

Speaker 3: 26:45

I'm not saying that's going to happen at first for a few years and then he became really based, but and that can happen he wasn't a, um, a defender of heresy, though. That's the difference. Um, nick, do you have thoughts, or like what? Do you have thoughts? What's your view on all this?

Speaker 1: 27:03

Essentially my view is one of optimism, mostly just because, while I understand the rational critique of the current Holy Father, the concerns about previous statements that he has made, I do believe that the Holy Ghost is powerful and good enough that, if it so be in his will for him to grace us with a Pope that can do a lot of good and a lot of change. Then that will be what happens and I think it's the Christian thing to do, ultimately, to do two things. One is again like we have a mixed bag kind of before us of statements. I think it's the Christian thing to do. To number one, presume the best right, just presume the best as much as possible, because that's what we would honestly want to have done to us. But then the second thing would be that we would, I would say, do a better this is mostly directed at me, but this could be applicable to other people out there Also spend a lot more time in prayer and contemplation for the Holy Father so that he would hopefully cooperate with the graces that would be set before him when it comes to his office that now he's in task with. So essentially that's now he's in tasked with. So essentially that's my position it's one of.

Speaker 1: 28:23

There is a myriad of people who are giving various opinions on all of these things and at the moment it's like, well, we have kind of a myriad of data. Let's kind of wait and see, let's hope for the best, right, you know, expect, you know, I think, expecting the worst ultimately, while we can, on the one hand, you don't want to fall into a sense of like a false hope, I do think that you also need to, at the same time, recognize that things could be turned out very, very differently than potentially when we might expect. So I have a more optimistic view whenever it comes to it all, because ultimately, I think that that's a more healthy approach to take. It's not denying any issues, right, I want to be clear with that. It's not denying potential, any issues. But at the same time, I do think that when one has to give as much of the benefit of the doubt as possible, I got.

Speaker 3: 29:15

Where do you think you differentiating from me? I don't know how much. I don't know your position until I just asked. I don't know what you're characterizing as mine. So when you say pray more, what if I said I just spent 23.5 hours praying? I'm not saying I did, but let's hypothetical this Someone that prayed for him 23 hours yesterday needs to pray more. Or are you saying alternatively, someone that prayed for him 23 hours couldn't come away with the position like, oh no, this looks really bad.

Speaker 1: 29:45

Yeah, sure, I think one could come away with a position of if you already prayed a ton and walk away saying, oh, this looks bad. But at the same time I would say really, regardless, it doesn't matter how much you pray or whatever your thoughts are, you're tasked to pray, and so that's what would be my basic answer.

Speaker 2: 30:03

All right, that's not, that's not the point. I, it's, it's. Look, we're trying to figure out the proper position in this right and I and I think I think you know, uh, nick has one argument and nick, your disposition is you just don't want to. Um, I'm pretty sure you just don't want to add to any of the drama in this. You're thinking more along the lines of you'll be held to account for every idle word and you want to make sure that your words are very precise and stuff. But Tim is getting to a point of truth and it's like I'm trying to figure out what the proper way to handle this is.

Speaker 2: 30:40

I never want to lie. This is why I'm glad I brought Tim on because, like, I fall into mimetic desire very easily. Like I, I want, I want to. It's not that I want to go along with the crowd, it's that I don't want to have the wrong position on this. So I don't want to be a coward, like I'm afraid to say what needs to be said, but at the same time, I'm trying to figure out at what point does saying what needs to be said become detraction against the Pope, because we're Catholic and there's like you're not supposed to rile up. You know like you're not supposed to rile up opposition to the Pope. So I don't know, I don't, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 31:17

That's the first important point that I was going to make to to nick was um, to try you. I think you're both operating on a misdefinition of detraction, so it's impossible. There are two types of gossip. Right for people out there, there's calumny. If you're speaking false things, that's always mortal. No, no one's doing that. Yesterday, even the most shrill I don't know who the shrillest person on the other end of the spectrum would be, certainly wasn't me, but someone being more shrill wasn't even doing calumny because they weren't lying Detraction now, and so I think you're both mistaking.

Speaker 2: 31:49

Maybe I don't know, maybe I'm getting the definition of detraction.

Speaker 3: 31:51

Detraction is when you reveal true, private facts publicly. So you're not lying if you commit detraction and usually it's venial but you are revealing true facts, which is what you guys are pointing at, but they're private facts publicly. It's impossible to commit detraction when you're dealing with something, when someone has already said something publicly, particularly someone has already scandalized themselves publicly. So, um, the catechism is very clear about this, both Trent and 1993.

Speaker 3: 32:22

The only cure to public scandal is a public repudiation, either by self or others. So, unfortunately, provost has already committed himself to a fair amount of scandal, right by saying that the death penalty is wrong in and of itself, by saying most of all that the doctrinal authority of the bishops is essentially a walking relativism. And this is a strong position he has, which brings me to the second point. So the only cure to this it's not actually detraction, it would just be speaking publicly about public facts. It's like you said, authority of bishops is not a mixed bag. It's very clear and he's written it and he's spoken it very frequently and it's the worst part and it needs to be clarified his father nicks in the chat.

Speaker 2: 33:16

Is that why people are saying bring father nicks on?

Speaker 1: 33:18

I didn't it I don't know, I'm aware of what the definition of detraction is. My whole point is more so you can speak the things that are true, and you can do so in a manner in which, ultimately, is not helpful for the souls that are out there. So what I mean by that is that, on the one hand, yes, you can speak something that's true and maybe your intention is good with it. Right, the intention is to speak truth and to call out that which is evil. Right, that's, of course, that's fine. But if the intention behind it, um, let's just say, let's say it is good, right, but the effect of it is really, really negative, especially in a context in which it's like okay, he's, my mustache is older than his pontificate, you know, it's like it. We're kind of just starting off here I'm afraid it's nice.

Speaker 3: 34:08

It's going to wind up being nicer than it's pontificate?

Speaker 1: 34:11

I hope not, but it's like uh, because I can barely grow one, but uh it's more it's, it's more like it's pretty nice, it's pretty nice let's, let's let the guy you know, let's give the guy some time, you know, because, because I mean, here's the thing that I see anyone saying is let's give him time, but it looks bad and that they're not gonna.

Speaker 1: 34:31

Yeah, go ahead I think you can rightly say, like there's, as I've said before, there are issues right that can be very concerning. But my issue, more so, is that when you run into a lot of the individuals who do spend a lot of chronic time here online, it's very easy for people to doom pill super, super quick.

Speaker 3: 34:51

Yeah, and my point is it's like I've seen a hard example of someone, because everyone's out there finger wagging today and no one's saying what their finger like, like the platonic form of someone that that needs to be finger wagged at about this I can, I can, I just I'll just say this I think that um shadow boxing?

Speaker 2: 35:12

if not, well, yeah, well, first off, I'm not. I'm a high school dropout, and you're using words that I'm gonna have a hard time keeping up with you.

Speaker 3: 35:19

But I know yourself, anthony, that's what I'm saying. Like you did not say anything wrong. Hard time keeping up with you. But I know yourself, anthony, that's what I'm saying. Like you did not say anything wrong when I was on with you.

Speaker 2: 35:25

Yeah, well, no, this is why I'm glad I brought you on. Like I want to be held accountable, especially by somebody like like you, because I don't. I never want to be a coward. I'm trying to find the right position here because I don't want to rile up like I don't want to here. Because I don't want to rile up Like I don't want to, I don't want to go into this pontificate judging Pope Leo on Prevost, but he is the same person Like you're saying.

Speaker 2: 35:50

I just I think I think what we did yesterday was totally understandable, especially after the Francis pontificate. The information absolutely is public and I think it was the reason we did it was to give people like a reasonable expectation for this pontificate. Like, guys, this is the guy we're dealing with Like be reasonable. So when I'm seeing everybody going, I give my undying loyalty to the Pope. It's like whoa. Like you guys, I was watching live streams yesterday and I was watching everybody's face drop and everybody's reaction in the moment was holy crap, we're in trouble Now.

Speaker 2: 36:25

We came on air and we voiced it for two and a half hours and then we did get the finger wagging from Brian Holdsworth and Eric Sammons and those. I don't think. I don't, I don't know if anybody was, I don't, I didn't hear Brian's, but I think everybody was like, guys, can you just chill out and give the guy a minute? And I'm trying to, I'm trying to be open to fraternal correction and say, ok, wait, maybe I should give the guy a minute and let him come in. Maybe he will answer the dubia. But in the meantime he is bringing a little bit of dignity back to the papal office, which we haven't seen in 12 years. Like I know they're just. I know to you, tim, they're just. It's like oh cool, he put some, some dressing on the thing. But there is something I'm a trad that way I like it.

Speaker 3: 37:06

I'm just saying it's too easy to trade upon and I called it before he even did any of it.

Speaker 2: 37:11

I'm like no, I know, we talked about it yesterday.

Speaker 3: 37:13

Well, yeah, I was saying it the day before. Okay, what they might get is a guy. That's like all right, I'll say a few extra things in Latin. Let's have some homo stuff legalized. Let's keep a Morse litigia on the books. We can't have that. But I, all I'm saying is that's very clear. So we, we've established. Nick, anthony, tim, this wasn't detraction. Uh, language is inherently good. It's, it's a conditional good. It's inherently good If it doesn't run into any of the vices following upon the first principle of practical reason. So when you're saying true things, unless it's detraction, or you know one of the other, or gossip, you know it can be a truish gossip between detraction and calumny. And there are a few other pitfalls to avoid. We avoided all of them. Why is it wrong to judge a congressman by his record, or a man by his public record, or a bishop who has committed scandal and say I hope, I hope he does basically become a new man, however unlikely. That's all I said. That's all you know?

Speaker 2: 38:15

okay, so, but from so, I have no issue with what we did yesterday in bringing public information to light, but when I woke up this morning, you did the same thing. You said I am praying for Pope Leo XIV. Right, I said it yesterday. Oh, okay, I didn't know if it was this morning or yesterday. It's like I pray for Pope Francis.

Speaker 3: 38:34

That just shows you how out there I am on the prayer wagon, you know.

Speaker 2: 38:40

You see what my point is, though right, it's like, can't, like he's. He is making these symbolic gestures of goodwill and and and bringing a bit of a dignity back to the papal office, which is one of our biggest criticisms. To be fair, like it was, like one of the biggest things was francis, just he. He put this false humility forward and acted like oh, I'm gonna wear the simple white cassock because that's the humble thing. I'm going to go pay my. I'm going to go pay my bill myself at the hotel room, I'm not going to live in the apostolic palace. All these for show gestures that weren't actual humility, they were false humility. So this Pope comes back in and he doesn't do any of that nonsense, and he brings back not just that, he comes out with the, with, with the Crozier. That's like Pope Pius the Knights Crozier, and it's like there's things he's doing to signal to us this is not going to be the same as the past 12 years.

Speaker 3: 39:30

But you have to, you have to, just on this, think in in dichotomous terms it's either a or B. Given that we know it's not gossip, we, at least two of two of the the worst cardinals, probably the two worst cardinals, aside from maybe casper and the surviving golem guys, supich, who is very close with, and mara diaga, the francis kingmaker, they like him. So that throws us into this a or b situation, knowing that. And then you pepper in the other guy's world. Looked pleased his punch and, uh, ivory.

Speaker 2: 40:05

I know it's either.

Speaker 3: 40:07

Okay, so he's coming in, and and the presumption now throws us to the default position. It's in law. It's called a rebuttable presumption, given that the most important fact we know about him bar none who elected? Who elected him? Whose man are you? As Bill Cutting says right, whose man are you? Everyone's, someone's man when they're voted in. Whose man are you? Okay, so we know.

Speaker 3: 40:31

So the rebuttable presumption is now, he's Golan's man, and that's not. It's not a non-rebuttable presumption. So it's either a that he's going to come in, and what would he do if he is the Golan man? He would be a shrew, a much shrewder than Francis. He would make overtures. You combine it with why did we get a North American Pope that that supposedly likes the Latin mass? Oh, okay, well, of course, on situation a, if he's a Golan man, I'm not sure, though. That's for me the rebuttable presumption. I think it's hard to say otherwise. Given who gave us him, this is precisely how he would act, but I'm not saying I know that yet. That would be potentially last judgment. Or B, that's all just a bunch of unlikely coincidence, perfect storm. And he's really the world's best pope and's going to get rid of um uh amoris in a week, then I I still will have nothing to apologize for. I'll just be like dude.

Speaker 2: 41:29

You looked, you had the look of a murderer, bro, but I'm so thrilled I don't think you owe an apology, though I, I, I think, um, even even the news reports that came out today where it's like dolan was the kingmaker behind the scenes, like I think that's all propaganda they're giving us to make us think something happened that didn't actually happen. Like I, I, I am not naive to what we are dealing with. That's not my point. I still think what we said yesterday was 100% true. My, my point is from here forward, what is, what is the position I want to take? From here and give him that leeway of time to, to, to show either. This is, you know, he took the name leo, but is he really francis at heart? Like I want, I want to give the man some space and I also don't want to come out bashing him and ruin the gestures he's giving by giving him the middle finger and then he says, okay, well, you know what? Maybe francis was right to punish you assholes.

Speaker 3: 42:22

I wasn't on the whole show. I did not give him the middle finger. I don't advise giving the Pontifex Maximus the middle finger. I didn't do that any yesterday. People were saying it's the equivalent of the middle finger to say huh. Here's five statements where he said doctrinal authority, relativistic doctrinal authority, should be given to local bishops. That's actually, that's material heresy. I really, I really hope that he rethinks this. That's that's not the middle finger. And further to that I would just say um, yesterday, all day long, I probably said it two dozen times we have to wait and see, because the question is always what else can we do about it anyway? Which kind of nick said we have to wait and see. But I'm just saying the rebuttable presumption going forward is he is the golan candidate, ostensibly now, because, um, unless you just say supich and maradiaga and probably any of that.

Speaker 2: 43:17

Yeah, I'm still saying he is the holy father, though. Right, so it's like so, like there's a certain position.

Speaker 3: 43:23

That's all I'm saying.

Speaker 2: 43:24

Yeah, no, no, no. I get that. I just think that with, like, the offices, oh dignity. So I had no problem with what we said yesterday, but my position today was going to be come on and I'm just, I'm going to, I'm going to take a step back and I want to give this man some room to breathe and see what he wants, Because even if he is the St Gallen candidate, he's still the freaking Pope and he could go. I don't care what anybody I owe nobody anything. I'm the Pope. In reality, he owes our.

Speaker 2: 43:54

Lord.

Speaker 3: 43:54

Jesus Christ, everything.

Speaker 2: 43:55

Well, that's it right, so he could come in and go I don't care what.

Speaker 3: 44:00

Yeah, he owes more than you and I owe as heavy as the head that wears the crown. So he owes much, much more than you. Remember all of jesus's passages on? See, this is that protestant thing where I start going. I think catholics have bought the protestant lies about the pope that we at that. He is actually. You know, we're worshipful of him. The Pope is beware being a stumbling block. Heavier is the head. When you're in charge, everything's your fault. So the Pope is not some guy we worship. That's what Protestants have lied about us for the last 500 years. He owes more than I owe or you owe. He gets more credit and more blame together. It's not. It's not all of the credit, none of the blame. And jesus, our lord, directly said this to his apostles when he was giving him the keys. He's like if you become a stumbling block, you're going to be way more punished than ordinary guys like anthony or tim or nick or you know. We have to reconfigure that.

Speaker 2: 45:02

But that's fine, but like what we did yesterday, we did so what's, what's the? Like you so you were going to come on today and it's like, do we want to just keep releasing all that? It's like we know who the guy, where he came from, we know who he is. What is the? What is the position to go from from here? Do we give this guy some room and let him be the pope? Because part of it is also not just the, not just the pope, it's, it's the disunity between Christian brothers. Also, like there's something to seeing brothers at peace that I that I do love the idea of, because we're supposed to rally around our holy father and we're supposed to have the father be good to his children and we haven't had that for 12 years. I'm tired, you know, maybe it's a bit of exhaustion from that and and missing just being able to just go hey, you're my brother in Christ. I don't, I don't want to, I don't know and I'm on. I'm genuinely looking for the right position from this point forward, not from yesterday. I did what I did yesterday because it needed to be said.

Speaker 2: 46:04

You and I knew what was coming in the lead up to this. We talked about it the day of, but now this is 24 hours in. He's made a few gestures towards us and it's like all right, from here I want to see what the guy does. And then even, even even beyond that, like what I don't, I don't know what is like, I don't know if I have it in me to be that guy again. I guess I don't know. Man, the freaking past couple of years were exhausting. Just being angry Like I want to love the Holy father, dude, I just I think we all just miss being Catholic and loving the Pope. So I don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 46:39

Of course. But what we miss and love about him is that he's the visible sign of unity on earth. He is the sign of unity in Christendom on earth and Pope Francis was not. He was a sign of division. I don't it's victim blaming and it's what did you say yesterday? Stockholm syndrome. I take no blame for that. Look, I got a thousand problems. I got a thousand faults. That's not one of them.

Speaker 3: 47:01

I did not sow discord under Pope Francis. He did, he did, he did. And this guy, his own brother, said he's not going to be differentiable from Francis. I played that clip on my show now. He was made by Francis prefect of the Dicastery of Bishops. He was sowing discord among, in my view and I think yours the bad bishops elevated to be good insofar as they kept their seat, and the holiest American bishop I could think of was Strickland and this guy put him down. So it seems like we're still in subversive world where the Pope is not the visible sign of unity. If the Pope were going to be the visible sign of unity, I think he'll. That might be a second litmus test, though it's not as clear yeah, john henry weston.

Speaker 2: 47:47

John henry weston said the litmus test is what he does with strickland. I don't think it is. I think it's definitely the dubia and I and I don't know if that means that uh, burke has to resubmit dubia to clarify amorous. But I do think, like you said, like we're going to get some, okay cool, you're gonna get your latin mass back. But if we just pretend the francis pontificate, like if we just because I talked to somebody today in more of the mainstream world and they were like what well, what, if, what, if, what, if? Um leo just wants to like kind of move forward and he doesn't want to. But it's like there are too many errors that have to be corrected. I just want to give the guy enough time to correct them.

Speaker 3: 48:25

But that's all I was saying yesterday.

Speaker 3: 48:27

And and all I. I listened to a couple of the things you said and I was like nodding. And then you apologize for what you said yesterday, and I'm like you. You have to find a fault to a part, locate a false logo. What did you say yesterday? That was wrong? I heard nothing when I was with you. So it it's. It's dangerous to to backtrack and not knowing what, not know what you're backtracking, and that that's just where everyone seems to be now. Someone on my stream I think you'll agree with everything I said on my stream, by the way. Someone on my stream said taylor took down his video. Maybe it was for some I didn't take mine.

Speaker 2: 49:00

Yeah, I wasn't gonna take mine down. I want it up for posterity's sake, because I do think this guy's going to let us down and I want to be able to go. Look, we left it out because there is a pressure to not be the guy that spoke out against the public. It's like we did our show. I'm leaving that freaking thing up because when it comes time and I do think that's gonna happen I hate to say it, say it, but I mean I, I don't think what. I don't think we're crazy for the things that we brought up yesterday to assume the things we assumed. But I do think there is a little bit of presumption there. You know it's not crazy, but there is presumption there and I do want to give this guy enough space.

Speaker 3: 49:39

It's just non-dispositive evidence. Like if you, if the police pull over a guy that looks like a murder suspect, that's real evidence, even if he's not the guy, it's just non-dispositive. And then if they see, they look down and in between kind of his knees in the car, he's holding a knife, oh, that's more evidence, still not dispositive. Let's pretend he just is a guy that looks like the murderer in a similar part of town and he's holding a kitchen knife and he just bought that kitchen knife. Maybe it's a Slasher Deluxe and he just purchased it. It's mounting evidence. But what I think a lot of normies don't understand, normie, trads, normie, whatever seculars normie Novus Ordo is it's real evidence, even up until the fact that it becomes dispositive. And there's a lot of negative real evidence against this guy.

Speaker 3: 50:26

The only bit of countervailing real evidence for hope I've seen is not the fact that he said like hi, what's up, guys? In Latin it's that on April 30th. So this proves my objectivity. This is the only thing that made me say oh wow, maybe, just maybe, on April 30th he was at Burke's apartment top secret summit. He was at Burke's apartment and most people have missed that. I only found that this morning. Maybe you sent it to me or something. That is a real sign of hope. Now it's still 90, 10, but if we get another real one not not that he said what's up in Latin then I'll go oh, it's 80, 20. And then eventually maybe it'll turn out Hopefully it'll be within a month he undoes the doobie and then I'll say that's why it was meeting with Burke, that's why Burke had that other nice message. I mean like I hope for it, man, I pray for it, yeah, so what?

Speaker 2: 51:23

what is going to be your approach going forward? Are you just not going to? I mean, obviously there's going to be things in the new.

Speaker 3: 51:32

Like are you? Are you, how are you going to handle this? Going forward, just saying, as always, just true, just you know, whatever happens, that's, that's true, that's already of public record. Assess it with as much of my you know. You know, trained in philosophy, trained in the law, cause-based approach, when you use causation as your guide, causation is the you know, formal cause and truth is the final cause. You're not going to go wrong. You might get the wrong answer, but you're not going to go wildly astray. So it's just like hey, every day we pray for this guy, it should be reasonably soon. One thing I will be. I'll time myself to this mass.

Speaker 3: 52:12

The litmus test is undoing chapter 8 of Amoris Laetitia and taking that Argentine letter out of the Acta Apostolica setus and tearing it up and saying, sorry, I chose Jesus over Francis. He's going to have to do that and he'll have to do it swiftly. So I hadn't thought of this yesterday. But the one area our analysis was wrong. You and I were saying oh, no, two to four more years of the mimetic phony pretending Francis is good when it was clear he was bad right away. I just don't want to deal with that. We won't have to, because if he hasn't done the litmus test with him, it's bad.

Speaker 2: 52:54

I don't think he's going to. I don't think he's going to, though I think for the same reason, for mimetic desire on his part, because, because you saw right from the beginning, he comes out on the loggia and right away it's Francis and modality like he's. I don't think we're going to get the corrections, but I do think we're going to get some gestures, like you said. Now, the difference I'll take from you about the liturgy stuff is that I really do believe Lex Arandi, lex Credendi, and I think if he gives Traditionis back, you may not make progress during his pontificate with the things you're discussing, but it's going to form people, because the doctrine in that mass, if you're actually soaked in it, is going to form people, to be deepened in their faith, and then maybe you get some movement in the next generation or something I don't know. I think those gestures could be helpful in the battle and I don't think we should just mock them when they come our way.

Speaker 3: 53:55

Well, we haven't had any yet. Real ones, like the undoing of Traditionis Custodis, as long as it's not a trade. Do you acknowledge that it could be a trade, though? I mean this? This is something that um george farmer said to me and I'm like yeah, this is this is exactly what I said yesterday. He's like I don't want the latin mass as part of some trade for doctrine. Doctrine always trumps discipline.

Speaker 2: 54:16

I want tradition is gone, I want the nova zordo gone.

Speaker 3: 54:22

I that would be based. I don't think we're going to get either of those, but if we get Tradicionas gone, I'm worried. It's a trade and you can never trump the standing festering canker on the heart that is we have right now. When Protestants say, oh, why are you Catholic? And you say, well, because we've never had habitual error taught by popes, and two popes allow this heresy to stand. Now in the act. A apostolic ascetus, we can no longer say that so it's. There's nothing that's a close second to there is heresy in the deposit of faith. Right now it it's not been habitually taught yet. He has to get rid of it or else he's the Golan candidate it's.

Speaker 2: 55:06

It's not Okay. So what? Okay? So what have you? Because I don't think you're going to get the Dubia answer? But what if a future document comes out clarifying something? Right so undoing?

Speaker 3: 55:15

undoing. Most Dubia are submitted to the, to the CDF, and any Pope can answer them. They can be addressed to Popes too, but they're usually addressed to the CDF.

Speaker 2: 55:25

CDF yeah.

Speaker 3: 55:27

So any Pope can answer him. But he needs to clarify Okay, fine, I don't care if it's a resubmission or a do. I don't care about the boring procedural details. He has to undo that. He's got to yank that out of the AAS. That's the worst thing that we have as Catholics and theoretically it could destroy the faith.

Speaker 3: 55:47

Right, we don't have a non-falsifiable position. I mean same thing as when I debate atheists. I'd say they're like look, man, you're a smart guy. Why do you buy this myth? Bill Maher was saying it the other day. He's so dumb. I always just say look, go find a tomb with Jesus of Nazareth's bones in it there, still unresurrected, and I'll grant you, okay, christianity is false. I don't think you're going to find it, but you have to see that it's not a non-falsifiable proposition. You're kind of taking away the non-falsifiability of it man. You're kind of taking away the non-falsifiability of it man. He's a good pope that we're all praying for and hoping for, and Eric Sammons and other trad is feeling the shiver up their leg, like Chris Matthews when Obama got elected, because of what should be a falsifiable proposition that he's a good guy and he will not abide heresy.

Speaker 2: 56:40

So it has to be dichotomous that way I think everybody's just tired of the fight and they're just honestly I really do, I don't think any, I don't. I think everybody. I don't think they're that naive, I think they know what they're dealing with, but they're tired of the fight and they don't want to be seen as the one that's still causing the problems when you have a new pope in. I think everybody's just going let's do a reset and let's just give this guy some some time I think that's generally what it is I think, I think lying, which which is more than I've actually even done.

Speaker 3: 57:13

I don't think that's a?

Speaker 2: 57:13

I don't think that's a lie. I think everybody's saying let's, let's stop with the hostilities and give the guy some time in domestic Thomistic language, that would be a simulation.

Speaker 3: 57:23

Like a simulation is an acted out lie. If you're like, once you move to start psychologizing, assessing their motivation. I'm tired too, man. I streamed over five hours yesterday. I was incredibly depressed. Last night, woke up feeling a little better and I'm like I'm tired too. But when people say I'm tired the way like boomers say it, like too tired to fight, I'm just going to submit, I'm going to say something that's not really fully true. Then you're getting into the realm of sort of simulation where you're saying we're going to, we're going to. You know, nietzsche would call it dissimulation and I don't want to accuse these people of dissimulating or lying.

Speaker 2: 58:00

I think it's a ceasefire, though, tim, like you said, like you we even said the guy is coming here, he's an American, he understands the American media landscape and I think it's a ceasefire, like I literally think that's what it is. Everybody's going, okay, ceasefire.

Speaker 3: 58:17

I submit to the Roman Pontiff. Let's see what this guy. No, I've said that probably, probably, at least not two dozen, one dozen times yesterday and today. I didn't say I'm not going to submit to him, I said that heresy cannot be. You realize, this is like the non-false viable. This has to be the false viable proposition that the Roman pontiff cannot habitually teach heresy. Okay, so what? We?

Speaker 2: 58:40

actually, what we actually need is somebody to bring this to our new American Pope, who speaks English, and it has to be brought to him again. And we have to like this is this it's like we have a list of demands to free the hostages, or something like like this has to be brought to him. Like these. These are our major concerns. It's not just a matter of giving us our latin mass like these are the things that we have held under the francis pontificate. It wasn't just that he was awful, because I think everybody thought the worst case scenario you're going to get a moderate who's not going to be as cruel as francis, which I think is what we're seeing right now. You're getting this moderate looking guy who's not being he doesn doesn't hate people, like Francis had this particular cruelty.

Speaker 3: 59:23

You don't really know. But yeah, he's probably less mean because because Francis was like the meanest guy ever, ever. So even if he's kind of, or somewhat, mean like, no one's as mean as Francis, like ever Like so but we just don't know. I want to just start saying he's really nice. I don't know that he's mean, I don't know that he's nice. There's really no, there's no temperamental indications, aside from the fact that he doesn't seem. He doesn't seem as ostentatious as Francis. But heresy is where we can't negotiate. And when you just say, well, people are tired, there's a ceasefire, I don't disagree with any of that, unless you mean therefore, heresy is going to stand.

Speaker 2: 1:00:02

No, I don't. I just If the heresy stands then he's bad.

Speaker 3: 1:00:05

It's that simple.

Speaker 2: 1:00:08

I actually don't even think it's. I don't think it's cowardice, I don't think it's bad, I think it's. I think it's. I'm almost like because all of our instinct was to go in and keep pressure on. But I think there's something. I think everybody's just going. Look, we're not going to start this pontificate off Like we left off on the last one. So let's just chill out and just calm down and let this thing, let the guys in for 24 hours.

Speaker 3: 1:00:37

So when you say calm, I say calm down to a feminine yelling or or something.

Speaker 2: 1:00:42

But we're but us going on, us going on, us going on air repeat. It's one thing to do the day of, but for us to go on repeatedly, day after day, and still keep talking about this stuff like you're, you're, you can talk about it normally, but you know talking about it until the heresy is removed.

Speaker 3: 1:01:01

See, we have to have. But that you said calmly. You also apologized for what you said yesterday. So you're saying you're on both sides of whether or not that was even wrong or right.

Speaker 2: 1:01:11

No, I will say definitively, I don't think it was wrong. I think I didn't apologize for what I said. I apologized for my approach, because I think my approach was wrong to go in with that hostile attitude, because I think if I go into this thing aggressive from the jump, I'm setting a tone against the Holy Father that I don't want set and I don't want to be the one that's the cause of it. I don't want anybody, I don't want anybody's punishment to continue because I was brash or rash in my judgment and just came out right from the gate not giving this guy a minute to get his feet on the ground.

Speaker 3: 1:01:49

I I sorry, I don't know what approach is, but I, you didn't say anything when I was with you that I deemed wrong or rash at all. So I just this is there's, there's a lot of non-false, viable propositions, which is what I was seeing on Twitter. I'm like I, you didn't say anything wrong. You were not like this guy's. I I'm I'm sure he's going to be bad.

Speaker 2: 1:02:05

This guy's mean that you know we discussed what you had already, true, but but private it was.

Speaker 3: 1:02:11

This guy has a really bad record and all the people who voted for him are the bad guys, which is what we were afraid of, not, you know, sorry, not, sorry. And so this throws us into a, an ab scenario, a, a prime scenario. He's got the look of a bad guy, even if he has golden shoes or whatever, like it doesn't matter, a bad guy, he will maintain the look of a bad guy until he does the main, until he throws the main switch that the bad guys would never want him to throw, and it's needed for the perseverance of the Roman Catholic Church. We can't have heresy on the books, we have it on the books now I agree.

Speaker 3: 1:02:50

It's simple man, I'm calm. I just it's really, really important. Things can be important and still be calm about it. I would never yell him down or yell anyone who disagreed with me down. It's just persevering in the truth is what St Paul says we should do.

Speaker 2: 1:03:04

I want to run through some of these super chats, cause I think people got questions, so we'll tell. Action speak louder than words. Thank you, logan. Anthony the Pope's planer Never, we need hope, not cope. But I don't want false hope either, like I I. We need hope, not cope. But I don't want false hope either, like I don't want, because, like I said, the hopium is a hell of a drug man. I see everybody jumping on board and it's like they're making me know who this guy is in his past, but we want to allow for grace to be given to him as he assumes the office. So I mean, that's kind of how I wanted to come into this today.

Speaker 2: 1:03:51

Let's see. All right, want to look at a Pope who changed? Look at Pius IX. We talked about that already. Wait and see. Pope Leo will declare Trump Holy Roman Emperor. That's not going to happen. Um, is it just me? It is lawful to have zero attraction right now. Christian Mario? Uh, okay, if James Martin SJ is happy, that's troubling. Absolutely agree. I mean, this is, this is what we talked about yesterday. So is that?

Speaker 3: 1:04:18

a mean thing to say Sorry, it's your chat, but is it a mean thing to say this? Just dichotomous. You know. You know true or false. The light switch got to be on or off. If james martin is really happy, that's very troubling. Can we just agree on that? Can we just be common sense and not no one dissimulate or pretend that's really super bad?

Speaker 2: 1:04:39

right, but I but I don't, I don't disagree with that. What I'm what I'm saying is this essentially, it's like why would Rome grant any concessions if we go at him before he's done anything as Pope? Don't ignore it.

Speaker 3: 1:04:49

Look if he's a really good Pope. He's not going to not do good things because the good people are a little suspicious. The great saint Popes Pius IX, pius X, 9th, is only beatified Pius X, but pious the ninth, pious the tenth, ninth is only beatified pious the tenth. They wouldn't have been bad popes just because the, the good faithful people, were really like I really expect you to be good.

Speaker 2: 1:05:10

That makes no sense that propaganda is a powerful tool. Right, and if, and all of, just like all all the memetic desire towards okay, get behind the pope, is there. If all the memetic desire was towards bash this pope, that propaganda. Now you're riling the faithful up to be already at this guy's throat and I think that's the wrong approach well, I haven't seen anyone matching him and we we already agreed we weren't doing that.

Speaker 3: 1:05:32

I haven't seen anyone doing it, aside from like no, I think you're.

Speaker 2: 1:05:34

You're pretty alone in your approach, like it's got to be a lonely place to be like. I like know what.

Speaker 3: 1:05:40

I mean Like it's matching him.

Speaker 2: 1:05:42

No, no, no. I'm saying like even I'm watching everybody else just kind of go with a new approach to this guy. And you're, you're. You were the one that came out yesterday just stating what you're seeing. I think, like even you said to me you were, like it, getting a little sad about it, that you felt like out on an island by yourself a bit I just get sad.

Speaker 3: 1:06:03

How stupid everyone is. That that's, that's the honest truth. But no, do you think I was bashing him because if so see, this is where rash judgment gets reversed. Brian holdsworth sounded like he thought that a lot of people probably me most were bashing. I didn't say one bash bashful thing. That's not what bashful means. Well, I mean, who's bad? That's what I'm saying I'm gonna tell you though a shadow man or a boogeyman who name one person in the chat.

Speaker 2: 1:06:32

You know it was bashing francis yesterday, who's a catholic, not some douche protestant you have a very particular temperament where, like I see very rarely do I see somebody like you're all freaking um what are the four temperaments. It's like, uh, what are the four temperaments?

Speaker 3: 1:06:53

it's like I always forget them. There's phlegmatic, there's not phlegmatic at all. Uh, what's, what's the like? Mean one the no, you're not sanguine or phlegmatic.

Speaker 2: 1:07:06

You're the other one what's the mean?

Speaker 3: 1:07:08

one irascible or something you're not passive, aggressive?

Speaker 2: 1:07:13

you're just aggressive. Yeah, you're like aggressive, aggressive and you and you, when you get something, when you feel something like you're like I don't give a crap who agrees with me. I'm going with this where I think a lot of people steph says it's just called dma.

Speaker 3: 1:07:26

No, but I mean I'm, but I what? But that doesn't mean that I was bashing him right.

Speaker 2: 1:07:30

I don't think you are I'm trying to tell you what, the what, what I think. So a guy like brian holdsworth or a guy like eric uh salmons, those guys have more of a phlegmatic temperament. Rob has more of a phlegmatic temperament. Rob has more of a phlegmatic temperament. They don't. They don't like conflict, right. So when they see you, even just coming out on day one, going, ok, this is, these are problems there To them, they're like oh, I don't know, I wish like it just sounds mean.

Speaker 3: 1:07:55

you know, and I think a lot of people have, that it just says people accusing me of remember when, when he said the po it was in latin, you know, I was like looking over here because I don't have a monitor here said cardinal robert, and I was like holy cow, but this is, everything's gonna be all right. I thought it was robert sarah. I had people on twitter accusing me of like you, you just need this for your show and I'm like that's so stupid one Cause I hate talking about the pill. It's the most boring topic, to be honest.

Speaker 2: 1:08:28

People that say what will you guys talk about? What will you guys talk? It's like stop it. I'm an entertaining person. I can talk about anything and make the show entertaining. It's ridiculous, but exactly.

Speaker 3: 1:08:44

No, your show would be good, whether it was Pope Sarah or Pope Francis II, and I have all these books. I have a movie coming out Like this is the stupid Michael Voris, who, by the end of Church Milton was a major Pope-splainer, would say that to me. He'd like text me. He's like what are you going to do when Francis dies? I was like go to more interesting material. I'm sick of talking about this stuff and I'm just showing how the nice guys are. The nice passive, aggressive guys are always the mean guys. The nice guys are always the mean guys. That Canadian, whatever.

Speaker 3: 1:09:14

They're bitchy behind the scenes they don't do it to your face. No, they do. They do it even right there. They're literally saying like oh man, they're accusing me in very rash judgment of like something really wicked which would be hoping that the I was so hoping this would be pope sarah, and and you have to basically be saying that guys like me, or you were disappointed or were happy it wasn't pope sarah, and that's no, that's, that's crazy but but you also?

Speaker 2: 1:09:44

there's, they're perceiving it as you're hoping. This guy, because of his past, is like it's, it's silly, but you're right, it doesn't make sense because, no, we wanted the greatest pope ever and we want this guy to be the greatest pope ever, but, but I, but are we? Are you setting the expectation or the bar so high that you're you were not giving the guy enough leeway to even do? I mean, we're 24 hours in.

Speaker 3: 1:10:09

It's not a high bar that he undoes the clear heresy which is probably what he met with Burke about. Burke probably said he couldn't make some canvassing deal because that's illegal. It would violate UDG 81. But he probably was like you know what you need to do. If you get in, you're gaining traction. That's probably what Burke's doing. You're saying one of us needs to do it. I'm sure that's what he's doing. It is lying like an unspotted tumor on the heart of Catholicism, not the Latin mass stuff, as as important as that is. We can't have heresy being habitually taught. It will explode the church. That's literally what we've been telling protestants for 500 years. It's not too high a bar, bro, to say it's just no, I'm totally, I'm not even all in on it.

Speaker 2: 1:10:58

I told you I wanted.

Speaker 2: 1:10:59

I wanted to come on today and and, and and set a, a ceasefire, that's it, just like I'm not going to. First of all, I don't ever want to be the opposition to the pope anyway, like it's just a weird place to be as a catholic. But today I was just going to come on and say some nice things about what he's done, just because I want to see where this guy goes. I want to give him some space to do some things. He's in there 24 hours and I want to allow him to be the Pope. And I know, I know, but I'm going to. It's going to be a, it's not going to be a false hope that he's going to be the, the, the, the, you know, the great, uh, rebuilder of the church, pope, pope. But if he can do the couple of things you're talking about, I want to give him some space to do it and I don't want him to feel like he's already got the American Catholic right media after him, because I think that is a very big part of this equation.

Speaker 3: 1:11:52

Well, I don't think it's false hope. I think there's all hope, hope, legitimate hope also springs eternal. It's more conditional than cope, which I said springs eternal, but I hope he's the greatest pope ever. That's not. That's not a counter contra factual. Like san augustine says, you can, you can wish for two parallel lines to meet somewhere in eternity, but you can't hope for it. You know, sorry, bishop, baron, hope's got to be uh, rational. It is not yet at that point where it's irrational to hope that he's the best pope ever. So I, I guess I'm more hopeful than you. I hope that he is the greatest pope.

Speaker 2: 1:12:23

No, this is this is this is falsifiable and it's, we're gonna know I think this is more of a debate between what approach I wanted to take today. That was it. It was like it's, it's. I just want to have a ceasefire for a while, like I'm, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 1:12:41

I don't think anything we said yesterday was a lie. I don't think any of it was incorrect. I think we gave people a reasonable presentation of the man that assumed the office of the papacy. And don't set your expectations to be irrational, that's all Like. Don't set your expectations. Don't everybody go and be like, oh my God, he's the most base pope ever, right off the bat, within 24 hours, because you see that happening too. I do think it's fun to troll protestants and say stuff like that, but like, in reality, when you're talking in-house to fellow catholics, just be reasonable about what we're dealing with. Here we have a guy who came in. However, he got in, maybe he made some some uh, maybe he had some conversations with people and said, okay, I'll fix this, this and this if you guys back my candidacy and I would like to see those things happen, that's all.

Speaker 2: 1:13:31

Think how far Francis wanted to go. Something held him back from going all the way. I think we have to trust in God. I will judge Leo on what Leo does, not what Prevost did Pray for a St Thomas Beckett conversion. I think that's where everybody's kind of at right now. I think everybody just kind of wants to see what he does before we're just going off. I don't think it's cowardice either. But do you think it's cowardice that everybody's doing this? I don't, I think I think it really is.

Speaker 3: 1:13:57

I didn't think it's carryitas um some I've I've seen um mimetic kinds of I mean just typical stupid sort of hoi polloi go along with what, the, what, the flavor of the day became sometime late last night. There's always a moral cowardice to to mimetic desire. Well, it's not.

Speaker 2: 1:14:19

It's not a pure desire and a financial drive, like if you see the all, all the lady, are going for it. You don't want to. You don't want to lose 90% of your like that's audience captures involved in this as well. You know, I mean, that's a, that's a. That's a huge danger If you're, if you're not saying what needs to be said because you're afraid you're going to turn your audience off.

Speaker 3: 1:14:38

I'm not, that wasn't my approach A kind of cowardice.

Speaker 2: 1:14:42

Yeah, that is a hundred percent. My approach is literally just I don't want to. I don't want to be the one causing people to have disloyalty to the Pope within 24 hours, like I. We all had, like a natural reaction yesterday. It was a fricking, a wild day. We all found out in the moment, off guard, because it was the fourth scrutiny and we were getting information pouring in as it was coming in and we're like, holy crap, man, what did we get ourselves into? These guys didn't even put up a fight but the dust settled overnight and I'm like all right, I see what he's doing, I know what we talked about yesterday. But like I don't, I want to be catholic and just freaking like the pope, like I talked about yesterday.

Speaker 3: 1:15:23

But like I don't, I want to be Catholic and just freaking like the Pope, I just I don't want to have, I don't want to have a Everyone of goodwill does, and that's that's where you get into the the Holdsworth kind of you're not meaning to do it, but that's where you get into real dissimilar.

Speaker 3: 1:15:37

Of course everyone wants them to be good, every, every man be good, every man of goodwill, all three of us here. But when you say I don't want to cause disloyalty to the Pope by pointing out that he's a huge supporter of fiducia supplicants and that he says this natural law issue should be divisible along political boundaries, like I said about Germany and Poland, if I read an article saying that, or I even extrapolate what that means, we got to go through four causes and you know people, you know whatever. People don't want to hear that right now, but it's just a fact that the formal cause of that disloyalty to this Pope if someone got turned off by hearing that, would not be the reader, that would merely be the efficient cause, the formal cause of someone feeling a sense of disattachment to a pope that sounds like a moral relativist, particularly on sodomy.

Speaker 2: 1:16:34

That that that formal cause would not be the reader of, of the I think that people are seeing these gestures of goodwill and they want to offer them back and say, okay, we'll, we'll chill out and let's, let's just. I think that's all it is I. That's all it was for me. I don't want to, I don't want to come out here with the same of suspicion right off the freaking jump on this pope. I want to let him, I want to want to see what he does, like give the man some space to do what he's going to do, and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna come on every day going when has he done it yet? Has he done it yet? I want to just give the.

Speaker 2: 1:17:12

I mean, the guy just became pope and I want to let him figure out how he wants to do it. I mean, he's already with the curial um, uh positions. He's like I, I'm going to leave them in place while I sit back and pray. I don't know, that could be taken one of two ways. Maybe he really does want to sit and pray and put the right people in there, or maybe he's just going to leave the whole Francis platoon in there to continue operation as usual. I don't know. But if the guy says he's going to sit back and pray about it. I'm going to let him pray about it and see what he does. When he makes those positions official, then it's a different story.

Speaker 3: 1:17:50

Agreed. I mean, I don't know what Nick thinks about this, but I agree with that. But I don't think that'll be wrong at that point if he leaves Cardinal Tuchel in to say this is really bad.

Speaker 2: 1:18:02

And Parolin with the China deal. There's things we're looking for, but I want to give him a little time to do those things.

Speaker 3: 1:18:08

Yeah, Do we agree on that? Is there any dissension in the ranks? Nick, do you disagree on that? He couldn't right.

Speaker 1: 1:18:16

Yeah, no, my only advice is pray hope and don't worry, that's about it.

Speaker 2: 1:18:27

Yeah, no, all right. So I know you wanted to jump on because I was saying I'm sorry. Yeah, I know. And I brought you on because I don't want to back down from something I did out of memetic desire, like I want to be held to account, that's it, but I do. I do worry about how we're approaching this pontificate within 24 hours, that's all.

Speaker 3: 1:18:50

I'll amend Nick's thing Pray, hope, don't worry, and never back down to the mob unless you've committed some serious sin. Never back down the mob. The one thing the mob can be counted on. Never back down the mob. The one thing the mob can be counted on whether on Twitter, real life, the Coliseum they're always stupid. It's a few and a many problem. Plato and Aristotle it's the one thing they agree on. Right Is this is a few and a many problem. The mob manages to get everything wrong. So pray, hope, don't worry and don't mind the mob. You got to be straightforward. Clearest path to truth and the truth is a person and it's Jesus, which is why you should pray, hope and don't worry and never back down to the mob. They killed Jesus, they killed Socrates. Just don't mind the mob.

Speaker 2: 1:19:38

Yeah, that's a hard one. All right, tim, I'm going to talk with Nick for a little bit because I haven't had Nick on in a while. But, yes, text me. Text me if I say anything. That's too, that's too soft. I just I'm telling you what it is. I want to go into this with a ceasefire like I don't want to be. I just don't want to be the guy that's going at it. And it's not memetic desire, it's from. This is the pope, and I want to give the pope some some room to be the pope, for before I jump down his throat I want to give him all the room he needs to do the right thing.

Speaker 3: 1:20:11

God bless you guys, and let's see him let's see it happen peace

Speaker 2: 1:20:17

so the yeah, he was texting me and I want to. I got, I got other people texting me to say and telling me he's right. So I mean, I don't know, it was choleric, that's what it is Like. Tim's ultra choleric, so he's like I don't care if when I see the truth, it's like the truth is the thing I'm going to push on, where I think other temperaments are more like oh man, it's a bad look, you know. So I don't know I feel bad, Nick, because you know me and you haven't talked in a while. But how are you feeling in these first 24 hours?

Speaker 1: 1:20:52

I'm feeling good. I mean, I think that all we can do ultimately is the three things Like if you break down, pray, hope and don't worry. It's like prayer is seek, union with God. Hope, knowing that ultimately, even if hypothetically things go wrong, that he will bring all things to his glory and that the church is still true. Holdsworth is in the chat.

Speaker 2: 1:21:18

Brian, do you want to come on? Would you want to have Brian on?

Speaker 1: 1:21:21

Yeah, that's fine. Is this the real Brian Holdsworth? I've seen Jimmy.

Speaker 3: 1:21:25

Akin.

Speaker 1: 1:21:27

Father Jim Martin and Brian Holdsworth. So if this is the real.

Speaker 2: 1:21:30

If you want to come on, because I really do, I want to get all of the perspectives here and I want to balance it out and I tend to, yeah, bring Brian. All right, brianrian, I'm gonna send you the link uh, copy, uh, let's see. I mean, look, this is just trying to. Uh, let me see. I don't even know if that's really him. I'm gonna say, if that's really you in the chat, you might as well.

Speaker 1: 1:22:01

Text for everyone out there the last thing with don't even know if that's really him. I'm going to say if that's really you in the chat, you might as well text for everyone out there. The last thing with, don't worry the Lord talks about not letting like you don't worry about anything, and I think that that's something that I felt prayed to in the Francis pontificate. Just a good idea not to fall through it when it comes to this, I think this is wrong.

Speaker 2: 1:22:23

Tim is not a doomer who would rather be right than trust in the world. That's absolutely not what that is. I'm telling you. Tim is like he's just a purist like he it's the only way I could describe him like he's a freaking purist, and the thing is he doesn't care if he hurts your feelings, like he he he was the first guy that I was interacting with behind the scenes and like when I had Trent Horn on or when I had those guys on, like he was like I'm just telling you you're too agreeable and you you're not. Like you're backing down on your positions because you, just you don't want the conflict, and that's absolutely true.

Speaker 2: 1:22:57

It's my temperament. Like I, I don't like starting a conflict with a guy who came onto my show as a friendly guy, but like there were like major disagreements I have with trent that I didn't bring up or I kind of let fly over too easily. I mean they're they're disagreements that would have been easily discussed. It wasn't like it would have ended our friendship or something. They're not. You know what I mean. It's nothing like that. It's just tim is a freaking purist and when he sees something he's like I don't give a crap about anything, but the truth it's just just he's like all choleric where I'm sanguine choleric and I like to, I don't know, I like to go along, to get along a bit. I don't know if that was actually brian, because he's not.

Speaker 1: 1:23:38

He's not replying, but yeah, I don't think that was brian, because of some of the other responses. No, I understand. Yeah, I understand the the pure choleric response. I just think that it's somewhat wise to kind of just sit back and see what happens. I don't think that you do that in the sense of, hey, we don't know anything about this guy. I mean, obviously there are some legitimate concerns that can be brought forward, but I think, at the same time, that's where, as my initial point says, you have to give them the benefit of the doubt and you have to put charity first and say, well, let's see what happens, you know, and ultimately pray Because, as I said on my show yesterday, I definitely did not do very well at praying for Pope Francis, to my shame in my certificate, and this is something that I've committed to every single day, making sure I at least pray a rosary for him well, brian, if it really is you, I sent you the dm in your twitter.

Speaker 2: 1:24:28

So you're saying it is me. Well, if it is you the twitter dm, I sent it to you. Oh, do you want me to email it to you?

Speaker 1: 1:24:40

if this is actually brian, that's pretty cool. Yeah, look, I I don't know. Youtube doesn't have the check marks like X, does? I kind of wish it did? I forgot what?

Speaker 2: 1:24:50

his email is what the hell is his email?

Speaker 1: 1:25:06

I'm sorry guys, you got to bear with me here. How are you guys doing in the chat? I haven't seen some of you guys in a hot minute. You guys all doing good, so it is me. We will see if it's Mr Holdsworth. I like Brian. I like Brian, I like Brian. A lot.

Speaker 2: 1:25:27

Yeah, I'm sorry, guys, I've got to just see what his stupid email is. Oh, it's okay, I got it.

Speaker 1: 1:25:34

Yeah, I've got to figure out if this is actually Brian. I'm curious on how Brian scripts his videos. Brian has this unique way of like outlining really good tomistic principles in very simple ways, and as a teacher, I always feel like I'm a horrible teacher. I think that's just a teacher thing, and so I'm like brian, teach me, teach me your ways.

Speaker 2: 1:25:55

I don't know how you do this, so so, um, yeah, and the thing is I like I really enjoyed the, like the whether it's mimetic desire or not, like I do, like how people are laying, having this ceasefire, and it's like now you have the. The left cats who loved Francis really don't have any ammunition to call us hostile, and things like that. It's like give the. I want to give this guy a little bit of room. We don't know what he's going to do, even if you say, based on his previous, uh, uh, past actions, like I, I still don't. Where am I going? Bold? What are you guys talking about? Why they?

Speaker 1: 1:26:38

I got headphones on yeah, well, I know what you're saying. I mean, my big thing is that the that the grace of the office of St Peter is. There are graces and charisms attached to that office and I legitimately believe that if he cooperates with them, we might be very surprised. It's one of those things where it's like. I think about it this way. Here's just a basic analogy St Paul, right when he was Saul, did a lot of bad stuff, but when the Lord really got a hold of him, he really used him for good. Now, while it's not a one-for-one, perfect analogy, the point is that when God gets a hold upon somebody, someone could really change, and so the thing is, I've seen some really good comments that he's made about various issues. I've seen some stuff that I find very concerning, but I'm like, look, he's the pope, let us give him a chance. We'll just have to see what happens. Oh yeah look at that brian, my friend.

Speaker 1: 1:27:30

How you doing, sir? Hey guys, good, hey, brian, this is actually you, because I, honestly, we had a. We had a fake jimmy aiken. We had a father james martin in the chat. I was like I don't really know if this is brian. To be honest, I got tim.

Speaker 2: 1:27:46

Text me like the audience you guys attract.

Speaker 5: 1:27:48

That's, that's what you get for it. Well, you well that's.

Speaker 2: 1:27:50

That is actually an interesting point about our show. It's like, um, I do think we're a bit of a bridge between more normal normie, novus, ordo catholics and traditional catholics and I think that, like a lot of guys that we enjoy watching, do check out our show and it's because it's a light-hearted, humorous show and stuff and I'll never like attack somebody that comes on and stuff. So were you finger wagging at anybody specific in your video yesterday? I did not see the video or were you just giving like a general?

Speaker 1: 1:28:22

I didn't think you figured why. No, I had.

Speaker 5: 1:28:24

I hadn't watched any anybody else's reactions when I had, when I shot. That that was my honest just like. So yesterday I was with my kids, we watched the, the announcement, up until right before he blessed the crowd, and then we had to get in the car because we were going to the march for life here, uh, in my, my home province. So we were out all day and then got home and I just thought you know, I have to say something about this. So I quickly shot something as soon as we got home and then I just kind of logged off for the rest of the night. So no, it wasn't directed at anybody specifically, but that said so I went out and did a bunch of work in my yard, which is also what I was doing, which is why it took me so long to to get logged on to here. You were listening to you guys. So so your episode with tim and rob yesterday and I had commented on.

Speaker 2: 1:29:11

I don't know if you saw the comment, but I said it was funny right?

Speaker 5: 1:29:12

well, I said something like I'm one of the copium springs eternal guys, or whatever tim's phrase was, um, but but that simultaneously like I was laughing out loud in my yard like shoveling dirt while I was listening to you guys, because you know I disagree with a lot of what Tim was saying, but Tim's a funny guy and I was laughing at a lot of the. You know the points you were saying and I think that that's what you guys do well is that you, you can be provocative, but it's generally as far as anybody should be able to tell in goodwill and earnest and it's not meant to be malicious. So I think that that's a good approach.

Speaker 2: 1:29:49

Yeah, listen, yesterday happened. I appreciate that. Yesterday happened and, like dude, my heart sank. I was like there was three names I was listening for. Prevost was one of them. Like it, just it was one of them Because I had seen all these things leading up to it. So when they said his name out, I was like oh no, and this sense of doom came over me and I what I was coming on the show to do was say I don't want because I know the way I talk can influence the people listening to me and I don't want to doom the people listening to me.

Speaker 2: 1:30:23

So I had normie Catholics calling me yesterday that don't watch the show and they're like what do you think of this Pope?

Speaker 2: 1:30:28

And I was like not good. And I'm like and I thought about it last night when it was about I'm like I am setting the stage for people that don't really pay attention to church politics Like I do and giving them an immediate bad impression of a guy that they don't know anything about. And I thought that was wrong. I'm like like these are just normal Catholics that don't. They're not like us, where we're like every little thing that happens. And I'm like now these guys are going to go into this pontificate thinking, oh, this Pope is bad, he's from America, he's from Chicago and it's like I should not have done that it's. I think it is a different thing when we're talking like this amongst people who can push back a little bit and things like that, but that specific thing is what I really felt bad about hmm, yeah, and if I'm being honest too, listening to your guys episode, because I didn't know anything about him, uh, prior like I wasn't even familiar with him.

Speaker 5: 1:31:19

I I was familiar with like a handful of American Cardinals, but when they said he's American in that name, I was like what? There's an American Cardinal I don't even know about. Granted, he's kind of newish, so. So maybe I can be forgiven for that. But I'm also not. I don't follow like Tim Tim.

Speaker 5: 1:31:33

Listening to Tim, he's rattling off of all these sort of intriguing details. I'm like I don't know about any of this stuff, I just don't follow it that closely. It's probably easier for me to just be like, well, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. But listening to your guys' episode, if I'm being honest, yesterday, by the end of it I was like, oh, this does sound bad. Maybe this guy is as bad as a Cupich or a Tobin or something like that. And if either those guys had walked out on onto the logia, I would have been like I'm not giving the benefit of the doubt here, like this is a disaster, right. And so if, if I knew enough about provost and and I knew bad things about him, maybe it would be harder for me, but from also, you know, having taken stock of, of a lot of the things that tim was saying, you guys were saying yesterday, at the end of the day, I don't like Tim.

Speaker 5: 1:32:27

Tim kept on saying that you know he's an Aristotelian and therefore it's all about the truth for him. But you know, I don't think a lot of the conclusions he was drawing are necessary conclusions from the, the evidence that's offered to us, right, you could say, well, he's a saint gallen guy, okay, but does that mean he's going to be a bad pope? Like? There are other possible interpretations here. He could just be a very diplomatic personality who is able to build bridges between the extremes on that end of the spectrum and the extremes on the other end of the spectrum. You know, there's people like um, like burke and sarah, who seem really pleased with this outcome, right, and maybe they're just gaslighting or maybe they're putting up a veneer of approval, but maybe they're being sincere and we should give them the benefit of the doubt as well. Maybe they know things about this guy that he can actually draw all of these spectrums together and maybe, you know, if you're more cynical about it, you could say, well, that's impossible, right Like there's such polar opposites that that can't be done.

Speaker 2: 1:33:27

But what do you know? What do you make? What do you make of what Tim was saying about? Like Leo the 14th is going to have to go back and correct these errors of Francis, like there are actual errors in Amoris Laetitia that need to be corrected, and like that can be a litmus test for what? What we can, because, look, there are some. He can make these gestures, get rid of tradition, things like that. But the real thing, the trads were upset about what. It wasn't the 2% of us that go to the Latin mass, it was. I mean, it wasn't because they tried to make it like it was just the trads that had a problem with francis, but it wasn't. It was all faithful catholics were like what the hell is this guy doing? So what do we do about a guy that we like? Because I still want to give the guy room to go and and some some time to go and take care of this stuff yeah, yeah, I mean, I would.

Speaker 5: 1:34:22

I would strongly disagree with tim on the question of you know, there's, there's this crowd of traditionalists who are what did he call us?

Speaker 5: 1:34:29

One one, one song, um, something, one issue, voters or something like that. But but, and and frankly, you know, if all I could get was the latin latin mass and given room to flourish, that would be massive in my mind, given what we've been through. For one specific reason, because in my own Latin mass community we are, we are flourishing, we're breeding like the average age at our Latin mass is probably like 13 at at most. There's kids everywhere. We have socials every other week and the hall is filled with like crazy kids everywhere running around getting to know each other, wearing three-piece suits and bow ties, and it's like that's dangerous to the progressives and to the modernists, because that's culture. And culture won't just raise a generation of people committed to the faith creedally, but culturally. They'll have a heart for the faith as well. And if you allow the latin mass to to proliferate and to to distribute itself, uh, the way it was under samorum pontificum, you're gonna raise a generation of trads like I wanted to bring this up culturally sound.

Speaker 2: 1:35:41

I wanted to bring this up with tim. I forgot to, but he he does understand that because of skateboarding it's like, yeah, like skateboarding was a culture and I could still see that culture is in him, you know so.

Speaker 5: 1:35:56

So to me, that was my culture too. Growing up, I was, I was, I was a sponsored skateboarder actually, as when I was like 17 years old. So wow, so I, I was. I fully get what culture, what punk rock, skateboarding culture, what subculture is all about, and that's why I I think I have these sensitivities to culture within the dynamics of the church 100 and the liturgy to me.

Speaker 2: 1:36:17

So this is, this was like a change in my thought over years where it took me, like really being a Latin mass, regular attendee, that you see that that culture soaks into you. I can't even explain it, it's just. It made me realize that, like the shifts that happened in our culture, the shifts that happened in our culture I'm not saying they're the sole cause of changing the liturgy, but they have so much to do with it because when you're living that liturgy out, it, it, it changes the way you think, it changes the way you see things. Right, so my, my point, my point would have been where, where he's saying, like the morals come first, my point would be that living that liturgy out will then lead to the morals, right?

Speaker 5: 1:37:06

like so, yeah, well, and doctrine is there too. I've never heard a bad homily at the latin mass like so, the fraternity taking cares for our community. And it's like every week we're getting saint thomas, we're getting saint francis, we're getting, we're getting the whole spectrum of church fathers who are, are sound, and and and augustine, every week the bulletin is going through, uh, some work of augustine, and I'm sitting here reading it, like right before mass, and it's like you, you can't, you can't be immersed in that atmosphere and not have it affect you both doctrinally, both in the mind, and and the heart. And and I think that if you raise a generation like that, uh, it doesn't matter how many st gallen mafia mafiosos there are, they can't. That's a tidal wave coming their way and their, their, their clock is ticking.

Speaker 2: 1:37:51

Yeah. So I know Tim would say dude, I love the Latin mass as much as you guys are and I'm not disputing that he does. My point is that even if Leo doesn't go back and correct these errors of Francis, if he gives us the Latin mass back, it will prepare the next generation to face that battle. When we finally do get the Pope, that's going to be the Pope of restoration, that will go intact.

Speaker 2: 1:38:12

Like I think it does take a full cultural change because you think about what happened in the sixties and with the council, and it was an entire generation was just in this free fall from the sexual revolution and all these things and that's what led to those liturgical changes. And then those liturgical changes were the precursor to them messing with the moral foundation. It's like you change, you change the liturgy first and then you mess with the litter and then you mess with the morality. And that's what they did in England. Like if you go back and read Eamon Duffy's book, it's like the first thing they did was change the liturgy and then they start messing with the doctrine and the dogma, because the liturgy is absolutely foundational to this stuff. So I think I'm going to be happy if we get those bones thrown to us. I just am. I know it's not the penultimate standard that we're looking for, but I'm going to be happy with them.

Speaker 5: 1:39:01

Of course. Yeah, absolutely. It would be devastating if they actually did succeed in implementing what it seemed like people like Roche and Francis wanted in the complete suppression and dissolution of the Latin mass, because communities like mine, like my family, would have to go back to the Novus Ordo. And what would we find at the Novus Ordo? My children would would grow tired of a banal beige faith that does nothing for them and for which there would be no peer group for them to to reinforce their faith. Right, like the community of people that are mostly public school kids wearing booty shorts at mass. Right my my kids wearing dresses, who want to hear chant, who want to read poetry together and have poetry recitals. Like they're not going to find their people there and they're going to get lonely and isolated and exhausted by it all.

Speaker 5: 1:39:54

But the fact that we are able to go to latin mass is strengthening that generation who's going to have to fight tough fights, but they're going to be way stronger than my generation and even Nick's generation. Like, so you're Gen Z, right, nick? Yeah, yeah, so I mean even even some of the. I mean I'm, I'm impressed by a lot of what I'm seeing with with people like Nick and his generation. Like they, they have certain strengths, aptitudes of the mind and learning that like I've had to start reading some of this stuff by the time I was like 20 and already kind of a bit of a lost cause because of such a poor upbringing and bad education and um, and I think that that's what's going to save the church is just this, this future generation that has the opportunity to band together and and to get the right formation culturally and creedally well, so all right.

Speaker 2: 1:40:42

So somebody said um, we're like. We're like um, it's stockholm syndrome. We're like abuse victims just happy if the beatings start. Right, we sound like. We sound like survivors of abuse group, just grateful if the beatings stop. Yes, because where else do we go? So, like any any improvement we are like. The past 12 years were brutal, I don't care what anybody says. It was vicious to have constant airplane interviews where you're called rigid and backwardist and all these things. So, yes, I think those gestures of him stopping that are going to. And then, if we do get the Latin, it's like Tim. Tim is texting me like crazy right now Cause he's infuriated by this conversation. We'll have to get him back on another time, but we can't do it now, bring him back on, bring him back on.

Speaker 2: 1:41:31

You want to come back on Come back on, you get the link. We're better off hashing these things out together. Absolutely Like, like if there's anything I could do and like get people to have conversations that don't typically talk.

Speaker 5: 1:41:55

One thing I'll say about the Stockholm syndrome thing, though, is like, let's, let's concede that all the way and let's say we are as oppressed as something like people living in like a communist state, for example, like we're 1960s Czechoslovakia, and we're surrounded by secret police and any sort of toe out of line, and that the heel is going to come down on us, right? Well, if the oppression is bad enough, what could we possibly do? And what's? The reason for the oppression? Is that we, as the mass, are dangerous to those of the few in authority, right, so they have to keep us down. They have to keep our abilities and our wealth and our opportunity to collaborate and to gather and to protest and all those kinds of things. They have to prevent that, and they do that through threats and violence and fear and all that kind of stuff, right?

Speaker 5: 1:42:48

What if they lift the boot though? You could look at that and say, oh, you're grateful. If they lift the boot, though, you could look at that and say, oh, you're grateful that they lifted the boot. That's just Stockholm Syndrome. It's like, yeah, sure, but also now we're much more dangerous because we aren't living in constant fear and because we can gather and we can conspire and we can work together because we're not living under the constant threat of execution or of our neighbor being a member of the secret police or whatever. Um, so, with that boot lifted off the Latin mass, that gives us strength and that gives us power that we didn't have otherwise, and that's better than nothing, that's better than where we were, that's my position Like like.

Speaker 2: 1:43:27

So me and Tim were talking yesterday and it's like we were pointing out, it's like, yeah, okay, so trads are going to get thrown these bones, and Tim's point is that when that happens, what they're doing is coalition building and all they're trying to do is bring more people over to the Pope's planer side. So it's like they give us our, our TLM back and then, next thing, you know, they have another synod and they start pushing that boundary again that francis was pushing that whole time. But because we got our tlm back, all of a sudden we're like oh, you know, don't say nothing about the pope, I don't want to lose my latin mess, and I do think part of that is like, that is part of the the, the socom syndrome sure, okay.

Speaker 5: 1:44:07

So let's say let's say that as a tactic is effective. So for the current generation, that could be the resistance generation. So let's say that that's the three of us and Tim as well hey, tim, let's say that that placates us, that pacifies us, so we're no longer resistant. Frankly, I don't think that resistance from us is going to do anything other than just expose us to the boot again. I think that the coming generation, gen Z and, like my kids generation, I think that they're the wave and it's clergy as well.

Speaker 5: 1:44:40

Remember, look at like, look at the change of the clergy and the direction that they're headed in, like from from very, very liberal a few decades ago to very, very conservative now, and I think that that trend is going to continue as this generation grows up. That's the generation that will actually be able to resist and affect change, because it's going to be a whole generation of clergy who are going to then become bishops, because there's no Gen X bishops, frankly, who are then going to just assume all of these roles within the Episcopate and one of them will become Pope as well, and at that point it's just, it's a done deal, and we don't really have to be the violent overthrow, resistance or whatever we want to be at that point before, before you guys all uh debate it out, I've had to use the restroom for two hours oh, go ahead.

Speaker 1: 1:45:22

Yeah, yeah, and just come I'm gonna let you three famous people hash out the conversation.

Speaker 5: 1:45:27

I'm just a simple theology we need a moderator in here this is I do need to know, do I need?

Speaker 2: 1:45:37

do I need an? A? A beat button for you today is what people are asking before I leave just god bless all three of you and anthony.

Speaker 1: 1:45:45

Whenever the show is done, I give brian my number. I'd love to like actually connect and do some type of like nerdy theology thing with you, if you'd be open to that, brian.

Speaker 5: 1:45:54

Sure, are you leaving for the rest of the show, nick?

Speaker 3: 1:45:56

Yeah he's going to let us.

Speaker 1: 1:45:59

I honestly don't think I can contribute much to the conversation. Sounds good. God bless you three.

Speaker 3: 1:46:07

Don't leave on my account.

Speaker 1: 1:46:09

No, you guys are good, go for it. God bless you. Man, don't leave on my account.

Speaker 2: 1:46:11

No, you guys are good, go for it. God bless you, bro. So, tim, you texted me like a madman. I'm trying to pay attention to two things at once. So what were you bringing up? Because I was trying to listen and you were texting at the same time.

Speaker 3: 1:46:25

Oh well, I mean, I was just saying Brian, what's up, bro? How are you? I didn't understand some of the characterizations, but I would never say that, to be an Aristotelian, you can divine the future or something. I simply didn't say that and I thought Anthony would correct that Yesterday. We were just saying look, as of right now I heard you, which I appreciated. Admit, look, I didn't follow these personalities in the college of Cardinals as closely as of right now. It looks really bad. This guy is a close collaborator, francis Maria dog, whatever his name is.

Speaker 3: 1:47:00

And uh and uh, Cardinal soupage and uh, things are looking bad, you know, and so the what I was connecting was the idea that we have to go as close as we can approximate the evidence to truth, like cause to effect. That's all I was saying. I wasn't saying that it gives me an ability to divine the truth.

Speaker 5: 1:47:24

No, and I think that it seems to me that a lot of the evidence is speculative though, so that the truth or some of the conclusions that are being drawn, there could be alternative explanations to. A lot of the evidence is speculative, though, so that the the the truth or some of the conclusions that are being drawn, there could be alternative explanations to a lot of the things, and we could go through specifics of that, but just as I was listening to the episode yesterday, that's where I felt I was like, I mean, that makes sense, that's a logical conclusion, but there are I think that there are others as well from that range. If, for those of us that want to be copers or copiums or whatever, um, that's, that's an attractive option sure, but we can.

Speaker 3: 1:47:59

We can always apply relative quantities to, okay, close, close, maria daga or supich francis his brother says he's going to be francis too. It sounded in twitter's a horrible medium for carrying on congos. It should be more like this for sure. It sounded like you were saying that, okay, that, that, that it's like well, 50, 50, maybe he is all of those things and maybe somehow, coincidentally, it doesn't. I was just saying, yeah, 99, this sounds like a francis man. That's not. That's not speculative. Speculative beyond um, dealing with the relative ratios of of um probability. It's just, he's definitely been here here and here in the past.

Speaker 3: 1:48:44

I'm hoping for the best, but when people groaned, like even um anthony stein, who this is not a temperament thing, he's, he's probably phlegmatic or something, and he said just what he said uh-oh when, um, a couple of these things happened this morning, the, the new pope, uh, leo the 14th doesn't want to get rid of tucho fernandez originally, it is pretty quick, but I, I thought the same thing and, uh, and people were jumping on his case and he's, he's very phlegmatic and Anthony is again, he's got a doctorate. I'm working on a doctorate. We're guys that have know this stuff very well, just because they don't like the semi inevitable prescription, it's not inevitable, right? It could be some other explanation, but it's very improbable that this guy has not, at least to this point, been a Francis man. You know what I mean.

Speaker 5: 1:49:50

Sure, well, and it depends what we mean by a Francis man too, because he could be trying to position himself as everybody's man, which isn't ideal, because you can't do that, but it's better than being fully committed to one faction and hostile to the other. And if we think of ourselves as the other faction, I would prefer a guy who's trying to ally, or ally himself to everybody and trying to bring everybody together and build bridges, than someone who's just going to bring the boot down. And I think that that's a possible explanation. I mean, he could just be one of those very diplomatic guys who, behind closed doors, as someone who what was he with the Dicastery for Bishops or something like that who would have been meeting with all these various bishops, one-on-one presumably, or or just was a close contact to them. He could have just been one of those guys who is very affable in those scenarios, at which point they think, oh yeah, he's one of my guys um.

Speaker 3: 1:50:43

Therefore, he acts like the holiest american bid that that doesn't happen. He could have been.

Speaker 2: 1:50:48

He could have been doing that at francis's behest, first off, and second of like tim. We saw this with a lot of the bishops when it went and this just reeks to me of just weak men that are going with memetic desire as well where under benedict they were saying one thing and then francis came and they were just like dolan even did a little bit of that, where it was like well, francis said he wants the culture wars to end, where Dolan before, when he was on the Benedict, he was like a pro-life leader in the church. We thought he was the greatest bishop ever. So there is even like the Supich connections we were making. I saw somebody pointed out today. They were like there's no actual connection between him and Supich, like he was out of the diocese before Supich, he wasn't really his boss and stuff. So like I understand like we we we could have been making more connections that were than were actually there.

Speaker 3: 1:51:42

But no, the connection is strong. They weren't there in the same time. They don't share a diocese. That doesn't work, but they're. They're strong. And Cupich, it is now known, was strongly in his camp. And, by the way, the way the curia works is Francis didn't know who Strickland is. Francis didn't have it out. Francis doesn't know who most of the bishops are, the dicastery for bishops. As prefect, he knows all of the big bishops, particularly the problem ones. It's more like he advised Francis to get rid of a strict one. That's the way it typically works. That's how. That's how the curia works. That's how the dicasteries work. But the point is really that, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 5: 1:52:24

No, go ahead Tim.

Speaker 3: 1:52:27

I'm just saying you guys already heard my litmus test and I think it's a rational one and I just that was the only other thing I was texting you about, anthony was I think it's a quite defensible litmus test because we cannot permit Arianism. That's why we have ecumenical councils. It wasn't even a guarantee in the Roman Catholic Church that there was going to be an ecumenical council. We started having them because of Arianism and then the next six councils are shoot-offs of arianism, right. So we only have councils because of doctrinal air, because of heterodoxy. It is intolerable. Different.

Speaker 3: 1:53:01

I love the latin mass too and everyone was making me like I didn't get how, how potent a bromide it is. It is culturally precisely as potent as you, brian, were saying and anthony, you were saying like I, it's just mischaracterizing me. But it's not the same discipline, beautiful culture, building discipline in in all the ways brian, you are adducing, perfectly, exactly, well expressed. It's is not even in. It's not the same thing as doctrine, doctrine, heterodoxy explodes the church and we have that tumor right now and it can't go longer or we don't have the one true faith. It's that important. So that's why it's the litmus test.

Speaker 5: 1:53:42

So if we take something like Amoris Laetitia though I mean it's symptomatic to me of everything that has gone on in the church for like, let's say, the past 60 years and not everything but a lot of the, the, the milestone incidents that that provoked confusion.

Speaker 5: 1:54:02

Let's say where, where it wasn't that you know, a Pope or or anybody representing the magistrate came out and said something that was like definitively heretical. It was here's kind of an open door interpretation to something. And maybe a bishop's conference will come along, like, say, in Argentina, and come up with an interpretation that is heretical or heterodox, and I can just give them a wink and a thumbs up, which isn't a magisterial statement of any kind. So I avoid compromising that, but then I am still pursuing the agenda that I want to see enacted within the church. I think that kind of thing goes on a lot in the church and I think the remedy for that kind of thing like ideally, you and I would probably say the remedy to that is like a pious the 13th who will come in and just bring the hammer down and say no more of this nonsense. But I think that that would just cause a war within the church.

Speaker 3: 1:55:00

No, I agree with that. I agree with you non-facetiously, 100%. If that were what happened, brian, and I do also agree with your characterization that that's what had been going on since the close of the Second Vatican Council, that kind of situation you described. That's not what happened, though. That was most of what happened until September of 2016. What happened was the Argentine bishops wrote their own dubia while Burke et al were still awaiting the answers and dying in waiting for the answer to their dubia.

Speaker 3: 1:55:32

We're still waiting for it. They wrote their dubia and it was responded to. The same day. They said we're going to give adult active adulterers communion, which can't happen. Is this what you want? And Francis not only responded unambiguously, francis, on Tuchel, francis said that is correct, correct. That also said that is the only correct interpretation. But wait, there's more. The same day he wrote that resposta, he placed it into the deposit of the closest thing to a living deposit of faith, the act of apostolic ascetus. You missed that part and that makes all the difference. That is truly unique. It is lying in our deposit of faith. We are lying when we tell Protestants and Orthodox that we've never had a contradiction in. We have that until another pope gets rid of it Now. It doesn't explode the church until popes habitually teach error. So if the next guy after Francis Leo XIV says wrong, then we're still good. If the next guy after Francis makes it a habit, we're in real trouble. This is not just the beautiful culture of the Latin mass versus the ugly. Novus Ordo.

Speaker 2: 1:56:42

I think that's a false dichotomy you're putting up, though, because you're saying it's like, well, arianism is okay, or divorce, communion for divorce and remarriage is okay as long as we get the TLM. And that's not what I was saying either. I was saying if we did get the Latin mass, not that that's okay, it's that you're forming the next generation for the actual fight when it comes up again. Like we don't have a culture. That is dude.

Speaker 2: 1:57:05

When you poll Catholics and they're and you're talking about mass going Catholics, about the divorce and remarriage thing, it's like 80%. You put your own poll out. You remember how skewed your poll was for and you have a fricking trad audience following you how skewed the poll was for divorced and remarried to receive communion and that one thing it was like that was one of the highest ones that went. So if you don't have a culture that's willing to stand up and go because we all know people that are divorced and remarried, like it's, it's, it's a plague on our culture. So if you allow the TLM, what you're doing is you're forming that next culture to put pressure on their hierarchy to then go ahead with this, because the hierarchy they like to be liked you know. So I mean that's not like.

Speaker 3: 1:57:49

It's not a Vox Populace, we already have it. I mean, for all of these other issues on my poll you're right that one was surprising, particularly for my audience, anthony but for all these issues they were mostly 85, 15 or 90, 10. You saw that that doesn't matter, they've been 85, 15 or 90, 10 for at least the last 10 years. The we do not have a democracy. What's dangerous about a monarchy, which is what we function under? It's the best theoretical form of government, but the worst when it goes bad. According to Thomas and Aristotle, right. What's dangerous about it is if they harden their hearts like Pharaoh and they say we're not going to listen on this the way they haven't been for 10 years, over 10 years, 15 years then it doesn't matter how many good latin mass catholics you get. The latin mass catholics have always been the faithful ones. They've always had children of 10, 10 to 15. You know big families they'll still.

Speaker 3: 1:58:46

Now there's like 10 times as many of us, though I know, but the point is there's a lot of us as it is, even if there's 10 times as many of us, though I know. But the point is there's a lot of us as it is, even if there's 10 times as many, you know, or whatever 1%, even if it goes to 10%, that doesn't change Denzinger. Denzinger and the way that the Magisterium and Holy Tradition works is if in that time, habitual error is taught, then we have a real problem and it's just it's, it's not, they're not comparable things. You're never going to get to doctrinal contradiction, not doctrinal tension like some of the Vatican II documents doctrinal, outright, heretical contradiction. Mueller said it was practically formal heresy. You're not going to get to that just by having more grassroots, good Catholics. And I also want to make everyone clear that the only place my family receives the sacraments is in the Latin Mass.

Speaker 2: 1:59:44

I wasn't accusing you of not doing that, that I, I, I, I was. I was pointing out like my position on it shifted by seeing how much my life changed by going to it regularly and seeing the change in my children by going to it regularly and I thought that would be a good approach. Like I, like, I'm still going to be happy with that. I know, I know what you're saying. Like it's, it's. The two can't even be compared when you're talking about heresy.

Speaker 3: 2:00:12

My life is much better when I go to Latin masses, to Brian's and his families, to my families and Brian's families, to everyone knows this, but that doesn't change If you have.

Speaker 2: 2:00:24

I don't know how else to express it.

Speaker 3: 2:00:25

It's like you have heresy in the AAS. Man, that's not. That can't be brooked, that can't be passively tolerated. We have the worst crisis ever. Arianism wasn't even in the AAS, you just had bishops teaching it. This is the Pope. Put it into the deposit of faith. Wake up. It's a huge deal. I'm going to go debate Jay Dyer and some Freemasonic Protestant on Tim Pool's show on June 13th and they can literally just be like dude Pope Francis, and you have Pope's planers out there. He literally put a heresy into the AAS. I'm like well, it's not habitual yet what if by June 13th, this guy doubles down on that? It becomes habitual teaching. Someone answer me that I'll wait. It's really important.

Speaker 5: 2:01:16

What is the heresy, though, tim? I understand that what it communicates is heretical, but what is the actual heresy? The doctrinal heresy on the books, and again, I don't know the whole ins and outs of everything that's happened since Amor Saticia and the response to the dubium, but, um, to me it suggested all that he's given so far as instruction on discipline, rather than actual doctrine no, because that I mean anthony was the one saying the latin mass is doctrine, not discipline.

Speaker 3: 2:01:47

No, this is actually that matthew, chapter 5, our lord is wrong. That Luke chapter what is it? 18, verse 16 or 16, verse 18, I forget is wrong. He's saying Jesus is wrong, pope Francis is it stands for the? I mean, you could do it in modal logic. I was a logic professor. You could say that this stands for the proposition that France, if France, if Francis right, jesus wrong. But when, when Jesus says if you divorce your wife and marry another, it's adultery, francis is either saying that it's not adultery or that adultery is not a mortal sin. This is why Mueller said it. Mueller is a cautious guy, our outgoing CDF. He's saying that A equals, not A on a very, very, very basic scriptural dogma.

Speaker 5: 2:02:33

Yeah, yeah. So I'm sorry, go ahead, okay. Sorry, anthony, but to me that's what it communicates again, because discipline can communicate, it can instruct, right Like, if you allow divorced and remarried people to receive communion, you're saying that you're not in mortal sin, right? That could just be an abuse of the disciplines without necessarily saying that, right Like? I get that that's what maybe Francis would have wanted, if that's what he was communicating. But the claim that divorced and remarried people aren't committing adultery, that isn't explicitly communicated on the books that you're.

Speaker 3: 2:03:14

What you're describing, brian, is more like how the german sonata way operates. Before francis did fiducia, they just opened up 800 churches and this was going to be francis's number two to uh replace cardinal. Uh, ladaria fairer the c. He burned through CDFs before he gave us Tucho. He tried twice to give us Heiner Wilmer, who was the German synodal ways uh leader, and he was just Heiner was just opening up 800 churches per weekend and saying let's bless uh gay couples, even though Ladaria, fair, had had said this is not allowed. That's just. That's the situation, the kind of praxeological situation you just described, brian.

Speaker 3: 2:03:57

Two to a T, no, but this, that though that it does for it to be heterodoxy or actual heresy, he doesn't happen, because no heretic would ever say that, like murder is good or whatever, or polygamy, you know, worshiping multiple gods is good. That's not how heretics work. Propositionally by Francis putting his response to into the AAS. It is real heresy. Like double check me to Google it, do your, do your own work. Don't take it from me, but I'm just saying we have real heresy in the AAS right now. That's just it's. It's not the same thing as just turning a blind eye and allowing it. It is the biggest problem from his pontificate and I've done shows on like the hundred huge problems, but there are none which to against which this doesn't pale in comparison. This is head and shoulders above the rest because it explodes the church and our claims about the infallibility of tradition.

Speaker 5: 2:04:57

Right, so, but doesn't it just? Isn't there an interpretation of this where you could say that the instruction goes so far as saying that people who are in abnormal or irregular marriage states, or that the situation is so complex or unclear that there might be scenarios in which they could receive communion, and maybe that even means like they have to go to confession right before receive communion and then go back. And I know that's not tenable, obviously, because they have to have.

Speaker 2: 2:05:35

You can't receive absolutely.

Speaker 5: 2:05:36

Yeah, obviously. But like what if they're trying to think of scenarios that are known only to God or some BS like that, where they say, well, maybe in those scenarios and they're just trying to open up the window through ambiguity, but they still haven't said that they're not adulterers or that that jesus was wrong, like nothing like that exists on the books, as far as I know he hasn't said.

Speaker 3: 2:05:59

Quote unquote jesus is wrong, brian, but but I don't know how much you know about the history of this issue. Maybe a lot, maybe maybe you haven't looked at it, but familias familiars consortio by jp2 was a breakthrough on this in uh, whenever he published it was that the 80s jp2 was the aas, what you know what the actual aas stands for?

Speaker 2: 2:06:22

what is acta?

Speaker 3: 2:06:23

apostolic ascetus. Okay, acta apostolic. A set is aas is just the closest thing we have to an actual depositum fide. That's sort of encoded. But no familiaris consortio, brian, is the compromise, it's the final word on whether or not remarried divorcees can receive communion.

Speaker 3: 2:06:45

Cardinal Casper, same St Gallen mafia guy, at a synod in 1982 or 1983, this is how long these guys are at work tried the orthodox option which he eventually got through with Francis in 1982 or 1983. And JP2, thank goodness said nope, we're not doing that. And then he published Familiaris Consortio and he said here's the most I can do for you and it's actually a good compromise. It's a good compromise. Jp two said I already gamed it out for all of the um guys out there that are going to use test cases that you can't even fathom up. That Francis did use chapter eight of Amoris. He got it from Cardinal Casper.

Speaker 3: 2:07:27

What if we have remarried divorcees that have new kids together and it would require splitting them up previous to a familiaris consortia? Well, jp2 said solve the problem for you. You can continue to live together, even if it's an adulterous second union, as long as in the foro interno, the internal forum, you'd get together with your priest or bishop and you promise to live continently as husband and wife and and you'd get different bedrooms as brother and sister. Familiaris Consortio destroyed any reasonable doubt that could exist afterward. It's just, that's fine If you have a kid from the adulterous second union, live as brother and sister.

Speaker 3: 2:08:07

I think it's Familiaris Consortio 84, if I'm not misremembering. It was revolutionary, it was a big deal. It was the, the, the answer that jp2 gave to casper in the 80s. So there's no, there's just when you war game stuff out the way gollin does, or I guess, the good guys do countervailingly, there's no extra hypotheticals which would even allow any daylight. It's just either heresy or not. And again, if Francis had just given that response to the Buenos Aires guys and said, okay, you have the best or only interpretation, and he didn't put it into the AAS, that would still be close. But the same day, placing the document into our depositum fide has to be undone. And I don't know. I'm repeating myself.

Speaker 2: 2:09:00

Wait, tim. So a lot of people are asking this, like what constitutes habitually taught, right? So if Leo goes along with this and it's habitually taught, does this invalidate the church's infallibility for you? If so, then what?

Speaker 3: 2:09:16

There's no magic number and so it's kind of like Dwight Schrute counting, you know, to stall for time, like, is it at one, how about two, how about three? It's going from one to two. Popes teaching error, which we've really never had since the errors in the depositum, is a really scary step and you could argue it's habitual. Then I don't have the magic number, I don't think Denzinger would have the magic number. But two to three, three to four, it's becoming a vertical asymptote. At that point you know what I mean. And I'm just saying take it back to.

Speaker 3: 2:09:53

This is all very outdated, you know nine years old, kind of analysis from 2016. Take it back to yesterday I'm forgetting his name Prevost becoming Leo the 14th. We're just trying to use basic tests for proving or disproving. I mean not proving or disproving, because everything you said, brian and Anthony, is right. We're not going to know today, but basic tells for whether or not this is a man after Jesus's or Peter's own heart. And I said look, the base, the best one, is this litmus test and it shouldn't take two or three years. This is why it's the test because of his predecessor, francis, makes this really clear specific, particularly because they were. We already know they were friends. He was friends with soup pitch. Contrary to what people are saying, he was friends with Mary Mary Diaga and um, it's, it's, it's, he's, he's related both substantively and procedurally to the litmus test. Is what I'm saying do you think so?

Speaker 5: 2:10:58

I like the example that you gave about about going to scenarios where you're talking to guys like jay dyer or, or protestants, or having these kinds of debates, because this is something I've felt for the past 10 years in any attempt to defend the fate of the faith um, the orthodox faith, right? There's all of these opportunities where people are coming in and saying, well, it sounds like you're contradicting the Pope and his openness and his pastoral approach to the LGBTQ or whatever the issue might happen to be right, and I have to sit there and be like well, let me explain all the nuances here, because now we need 100 different distinctions to actually explain what's going on here, and that makes my job A boring and B extremely laborious, right, and people don't want to tune in for that. Sorry, I'm losing my train of thought on this.

Speaker 3: 2:11:43

Yeah, it happens. I hate when it happens. I agree with that. When debating Protestants, when debating.

Speaker 2: 2:11:48

Protestants.

Speaker 5: 2:11:49

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right, okay. So do you think that there's a liability in having something formally added to the deposit of faith and then removed by a successor Like that? And we saw this is one of my big issues with Traditiones Custodis is that it was like now is the. Are we treating the pontificate like? Like this overton window that swings back and forth between the republicans and the democrats? Every time one gets elected they undo what the other guy did. It's like we can't have that kind of thing going on. Um, in the church we have, there has to be continuity, otherwise we're going to start to really discredit the office and the authority of the, of the pope, and so and and how much more so if we're actually talking about things that are, are considered part of the ordinary magisterium, which then get removed. Like that's way more severe than, like you know, tinkering with the catechism, like we saw in recent years. Like that, years Like that to me somewhat discredits the, the, the authority of the magisterium.

Speaker 3: 2:12:55

I get what you're saying, but one. I did teach church history for nine or 10 years and if you look at Honorius, we don't in the Annuario, we don't even have a clear ruling on exactly how the church regards Honorius. We don't have an, an exact teaching, uh clear teaching on what all of the other popes during, um, now I'm losing my arianism for those 300 years like a tea with lemon and honey in it. Yeah, yeah, we need for the from like 300 to 600. What was the status of all the semi-weak popes and all that? There were some uh public facing about faces, um there and and going back and forth. It is. What I'm saying is it is a lot more like electoral politics than people think. I'm friend, I'm good friends with michael moles and he said yeah, and I was texting him when I was on my like third show of the day and we were texting back and forth and I'm losing my train of thought, but I'm like he's like, yeah, it's not. Uh, he and others were saying it's not like electoral politics at all. It's actually a lot more like electoral politics and it is fine and it is baked into even the early church to have some popes going back and forth.

Speaker 3: 2:14:10

Now that was never with outright heresy, like a Noria, it wasn't outright. There's the Noria with Francis, it's my brothers in Christ. It's outright heresy and it would be. I get what you're saying, brian, but it would be far better to undo it the one time. Then it absolutely doesn't violate the rule of faith on how consistent we have to be, because it won't have been habitually taught so we can't just leave it. If I know you're not suggesting it in like a stupid flippant way, but but that's kind of the implication that maybe if we just leave it no one will further enact it. That's not it. People know about Amoris Laetitia. Jay dyer and the eos know about it. I talked to them about it. Even smart protestants now, if you can find one, know about it and it's and more than that, we know about it. It's on our conscience. It is a real material heresy, called out by cdf mueller himself, and it's he, he insinuates its base. It's it's material that's basically become formal. So sorry.

Speaker 2: 2:15:17

It's why they submitted the dubia, because they wanted clarifications on it. Like the dubia were submitted specifically for morris leticia, which is what I'm like a little bit hopeful that that meeting with cardinal burke and, um, at the time, cardinal Prevost was about that, but we don't know.

Speaker 3: 2:15:35

That's what I said. Yeah, no, that's my real hope and that's why it's a litmus test, anthony. It's a litmus test because it has to be, but that's where I was just objecting to. I am not hopeless. I literally I don't like my odds. You know, like driving up to the house and I'm pretty sure I left the water on, I'm pretty sure I'm going to see water streaming out the front door. But I I do have hope that somehow God will preserve the church. He has to.

Speaker 3: 2:16:04

But this can't be habitually taught and Denzinger doesn't tell us how many magic popes it is. It's a great question, like Brian, but Denzinger doesn't clarify none of the popes that he's aggregating or none of the councils he's aggregating clarify at what point it becomes habitual error. It's just really it's serious as a heart attack. I love the Latin mass too. That's all I was saying. And I'm just like when people yesterday were and Brian, you were doing a little bit of it like finger wagging I'm like, look, we do all have different temperaments. I'm not some doomer. Someone in Anthony's audience called me a doomer. I think Leo XIV it's within the realm of possibility, it's not, doesn't violate the rule of non-contradiction. So it's possible Could be the best Pope ever and of course, the first thing he would do would be to undo Amoris Laetitia. So I'm not a doomer, I just have this.

Speaker 3: 2:17:00

I was a logic professor, a philosophy professor and when I taught high school I was a church historian. You combine those things and what do you get? You get a guy who says the litmus test is we got to pull this out now and we needed 267, whoever it was going to be to pull it out now. And I'm worried that the cardinals who gave us that guy gave it to us because they want to preserve the heresy to explode the church. And they know Sarah would have taken it out first thing. Cardinal, sarah would have taken it out first thing, or Burke, you know.

Speaker 2: 2:17:32

Yeah, I don't think he's going to be the most based Pope ever. I think he's going to be an interim Pope At least it appears that way at first and he's going to be the peacemaker to a degree. But, like you're saying, if we put this litmus test on him, what is the approach you think the trads are going to take from here? And because the trads are going to take from here, and because you, you were like, oh, everybody's finger wagging, but I really see it as a ceasefire for now and I don't know. I just don't know what the, I don't know what the approach we should take going forward is, because we do owe filial like whatever filial charity to the pope for the time being.

Speaker 3: 2:18:06

I think but that I mean I'll address this to brian. That's not going to sound one way like and if you you presume that a guy like me that just cares about church history, cares about denzinger, cares about the law of non-contradiction and cares about being um, philosophically coherent meaning not violating the principle of non-contradiction I'm going to sound different than a Holdsworth or an Abate or a Taylor Marshall or Anthony Stein, and I think I mean I'm kind of the rainbow candidate, really, really, you know COVID's about all the friends we made along the way. I think we need all the voices. I just don't like when people start saying, tim, you have to talk this magic way and don't ask me how I know the meta rule, the rule of faith for how we have to tweet. I just think it's BS. We all have different.

Speaker 2: 2:18:54

That's a fair point, because we we brought up for how many years we listened to. Because I'm friends with people that are on like the trend horn side and the your side and I've had people go. Tim Gordon is pulling people away from the church and I've also had people. I've also had people saying if it wasn't for Tim Gordon I wouldn't be Catholic today. But people on the other side hear your tone and they think you're pulling people out of the church. But some people actually need to hear things put the way you're putting them. So I think that is a fair point.

Speaker 5: 2:19:24

Yeah, if I can jump into that point as well. I mean, I have my temperament and my tone and my approach like this is where I try to find the balance plus, you're canadian, which we don't blame you for, but yes, no, that there's.

Speaker 5: 2:19:35

There's a lot of truth to that. Right like canadians are culturally passive, aggressive, right like in my own context, I'm seen as like hyper choleric and really intolerant. Like there's people who have unfriended me and ghosted me because there's I can't be around that that guy, he won't shut up Right, whereas I go down, like to Ohio and go on Matt Fradd's show and Matt's like you're not a cleric, dude, you're phlegmatic. I'm like, no, you don't understand. It's just, it's the difference between, like your revolutionary spirit, which is baked into your DNA, although he's not American, and our Canadian. Like we became a country by sitting down for tea with the queen and being like OK, can we have a country now? And she's like, sure, you know, like that's, that's kind of our cultural heritage. But so, with all of that said, like so a guy like Taylor Marshall or a guy like you, tim will take, you have a different temperament, you have a different tone. You have a different tone, you have a different approach and while you you know that I've disagreed with you on on certain things, for the most part I I think that you have an important voice in the church and the thing that pisses me off more than anything is the people who who really want to say, um, you know, yeah, he's, he's, he's causing conflict or division in the church, whoever that he might be, whether it's you, tim, or whether it might be, whether it's you, tim, or whether it's me, or whether it's an Austin Ivory or whoever right. Like, yeah, we disagree, and we disagree vehemently, but we should be able to, we should be able to hash that out and have serious conversations about serious things and do so to a degree that you know gets our hackles up in the process. That's okay.

Speaker 5: 2:21:14

I think the complaint that people always talk about, like you know, all these Christians and they're infighting, that's why I'm not part of the church. That's BS. That's what it means to be part of a family. Families fight. It's the people who are indifferent towards each other, like divorcees, who won't talk to each other. That's when you know you've got a problem. At least we're still talking, if we're fighting. Right, that's a good sign. I would say there's a lot to fight about. Like Chesterton talks about, that right Of all the things to fight about, the faith and religion is worth fighting about, so let's fight about it.

Speaker 2: 2:21:41

That's great as far as I'm concerned, dude, if you guys ever came to a body family function like we are, freaking out, screaming at each other and then hugging at the end of it. It's just the way it is. So I'm used to that's great situations where people are fighting and then they make up and then I've seen families that are very closed off and they don't. They keep everything bottled in and they do end up divorced and crap like that. So I thought, dude, I was very happy that you both wanted to come on, because clearly there was a little disagreement there we've been on each other's shows like I've always liked it.

Speaker 3: 2:22:11

I mean the last, the last thing where I felt finger wag brian was um trent horner. His wife, dressed up as me and, you know, acted like some sort of skater idiot. And then I put on. I put on headgear too and you're like, well, that's me. And I was like, well, I mean, I don't have very thin skin. Everyone, everyone probably here, knows that. But we have to have one standard for everyone. Like, if so-and-so is going to go on and put on headgear and make someone look like a caricaturized version of themselves, then you're going to get it back. I mean, girls don't get that by and large.

Speaker 2: 2:22:48

I think the immediate perception was something to do with Trent's heritage and it wasn't that you were literally just goofing on his hair. But it was different when you did it. I thought it was just goofy and silly Like you did it on my show. It was like one of the six parties.

Speaker 3: 2:23:04

That's why we need a masculine voice in the church, because guys goof around, girls choose to get offended and once we reclaim that, then we'll reclaim joy. Goodness, joking things like that. But like I, just the one thing. And, brian, I've always liked you, which I told you in DM, and I don't say that because I am so aggressive, I don't say that to people, I don't mean it to um, I've always liked you. I was just like again, the tone policing is is an element of the post conciliar kind of girl church that is going to die out and it, it, it couldn't die out fast enough because I talk like a man, right? Uh, other people talk, you know I talk like a whatever. I always forget the word for what you're saying. My temperament is I'm also the nostalgic, I'm choleric, nostalgic, whatever. The fourth one is'm. I'm a mixture and I'm super nice in real life probably sanguine, choleric, sanguine.

Speaker 2: 2:23:59

I'm sanguine, choleric, so I'm like way more on the other side. You're dude. I've never seen anybody who, when they believe something, just puts their freaking foot down and they don't give a crap, who's offended by what they have to say. They're just going to say it.

Speaker 3: 2:24:12

Yeah, but I'm nice. And, by the way, total aside. This is why we need end caps, brennan and Audra Nakani's actual Catholic Thomistic personality typing system, because the four just isn't enough. The four temperaments, but that's a whole different. Aside, I just I defy anyone who's ever come up to me at Latin Mass and asked anything and I've gotten some funny and bizarre and some onerous requests to say, oh yeah, dude, in real life Tim's a nice guy and everyone already knows you're a nice guy, brian, but I and you are, but I just the tone policing just seems like, well, it's a little bit of an implicit claim to knowing the meta rule or the rule of faith, if you know. And, anthony, this is what I was objecting to earlier today, that's all. To know exactly what people. Oh, I don't know exactly how you should talk, uh, but I do know how you shouldn't talk. It's just not. It's just not accurate. People literally criticize me in my.

Speaker 3: 2:25:14

Most of my audience has been pre-filtered, but there'll be like you're using too big a words. I'm like okay, here's what. Email me. Find out exactly to the word how many words are in your vocabulary. English has five times more words than every, than the second most uh, uh, verbose language or the biggest language. Find out how many words are in your vocabulary. Email it to me and I'll only use that. 21 683, those exact words, just for you and everyone else who's. There's just no one way to talk. And once this patriarchy movement that you know I'm kind of near the heart of takes off more and more and more You're seeing it a lot we're going to stop tone policing each other, because men are all different and we all have our special auras and our special colors and we don't have to just use the language that Anthony would have used or Tim would have used or Brian would have used. We're all the colors of the bow man. That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 5: 2:26:13

Yeah, well, I didn't think we were going to air our dirty laundry on air. But as far as the incident with Trent, I didn't know the other part of that story. I didn't know that they had dressed Well, I knew that she was doing parody videos all the time, but I didn't know that that's what you were responding to. So, so, mea culpa, if, if, that's, if, that's the whole, the whole context, that I was missing there. And obviously, uh, twitter isn't, um, twitter isn't conducive to having, you know, the full, full conversation that we would need to have. So, if this is an opportunity to to air grievances and and and say apologies, then I'll, I'll, I'll gladly offer my apology for that.

Speaker 3: 2:26:48

Yeah, I'll gladly offer my apology for that.

Speaker 5: 2:26:49

Yeah, because I do agree with you.

Speaker 3: 2:26:50

Yeah, sorry if I cut you off sort of in the, but I thought I said that. You know I'm sure I was being maybe slightly an ass, so sorry if I was, but it's tough because when you are one of the first responders the way I was and other members of my family, including my wife, were to this raging fire of feminism in the church, which is really what the actual guys who infiltrated the church said they wanted to do Smascula Sare Francis repeated it, that's a Vatican II thing and make just the women kind of run the church. Then injustice reigns and so you get stuff like all these shots Like before people don't know this before anything with the horns. You know Trent and Laura. I literally shot Trent an email. I still have this email in my sandbox. I shot Trent an email and I was like hey man, I just saw Laura and you do a ask me anything video. This is probably three years ago. She seems really nice. Do you guys want to just come on and do a couple's thing, because it had already been like two or three years since.

Speaker 3: 2:27:54

Um, I I'd like obliterated him in that feminism debate and I just wanted to extend a hand and he was like no, she doesn't like to go on or talk about shows she doesn't know. And I was like, okay, it's not, it's not super nice, I'm a vuncular that way, um, even if I'm a dick in other ways. But so then all of a sudden someone sends me these videos, like a year later, and she's making fun of you know how I dress, how I talk, uh, making fun of a deeply, deeply hurtful, um family thing that still hasn't been sewn up with with my younger brother, and and then she goes on, matt fred, matt fred pays my wife, steph, a nice compliment. You know she's like a prophet of asking your husband and laura can't stand it and she goes. You know she basically says steph needs to disobey, her husband does. Does she stand up to her? I mean that that's terrible. So, like you, you kind of traipse it by tone, policing there. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse. You already apologized. We're cool.

Speaker 2: 2:28:53

I'm always cool with Brian.

Speaker 3: 2:28:54

Yeah, there was an underlying issue, not knowing.

Speaker 2: 2:28:56

Yeah, there was an underlying issue there and there was like really, trent, you should just have a conversation like this. You won't.

Speaker 3: 2:29:07

And that's why I invited him, because he was a little he was, um, a little butt hurt after the double debate on death penalty and feminism. You know, you could see why immediately after you listened to that double debate. But I thought, okay, let it go a year or two and then reach out. And I literally was like your wife seems really nice, you know, um, it just it was. It was a whatever I don't use words like cute, but it was a touching video you did together and you and I might get along, especially in the context of the four of us with our wives Then kind of declining on that, specifically for the reason oh well, she doesn't know you. But then you can mock me, my brother, my wife, some of it more hurtful than other, and say my wife should challenge me and Matt's immediately uncomfortable, he's like whoa.

Speaker 3: 2:29:52

So I've reached out several times and the fact of the matter is people might not like to hear it in the audience but like Brian holds where, it's the nice guy in real life. I know because we do correspond some I correspond more often with Anthony he's a real life nice guy. You probably don't want to grant it to me some of you in your audience. He's a real life Nice guy. You probably don't want to grant it to me Some of you in your audience, but I'm a real life Nice guy Like. People meet me and they're like thanks, thank you for just. You are what you are, what you say you are, and um, but not everyone's like that, so some people really won't talk to you behind the scenes and um, yeah, I need to get into all that, but but I you are fine, and I do appreciate it and I I would talk to trent or taylor or anybody that that kind of leaves the um, the steaming rabble of the relationship steaming.

Speaker 2: 2:30:40

I just I'd always prefer to reconcile like part of this whole thing with the, with the, with the pope.

Speaker 2: 2:30:46

I like I know it's weird, but I think so much of the tension between brothers where there is these weird things has to do with us not having a father for so long. And because you look at the guys who used to run in the Catholic speaker circuit and like there were people like you would see guys that were great friends for years under Benedict, they were on the Catholic speaker circuit and then under Francis, you just watch relationships deteriorate and then this person saying the wrong thing about Francis and we can't really have conversations with them publicly because we can't be seen to be endorsing their view and you have this whole guilt by association thing start happening. I think so much of what we're dealing with is we don't have a father. So my, when I started seeing everybody getting behind the Pope, part of me was like, oh, maybe we could have some brotherly love again. Man, I'm all for. Even if there is tension, we all just sit down and have a conversation.

Speaker 5: 2:31:41

Yeah, that's penetrating. That's very insightful, anthony. I think that the dynamic of the family and the analogy of the family is really applicable, because when the father doesn't break up serious conflict, or when it escalates to the level that the father needs to get involved, um, then the kids will figure out how to do it themselves and it's gonna be messy and they're not going to do it. Well, right, especially because at that point it's just become a power struggle, right, and it's, it's, it's, it's not, it's not productive, and charity is certainly going to be sacrificed in the midst of it.

Speaker 3: 2:32:11

That's why salvia literally said he became catholic. The orthodox russian he said when you, he goes. Well. This is when I realized I needed to look at catholicism. When you don't have papa to call brothers to the table, it will be endless squabbling. It's exactly what you guys just described. I think it's a perfect sort of um why there's a head of the family logical, read it.

Speaker 2: 2:32:33

It's exactly what's happening yeah, yeah, dude, this was, this was. Uh. This was such a freaking unique opportunity. I'm so glad you both were open to coming on and just shooting this shit with each other. Man, this was very cool. I know you guys have been on each other's shows, but it was kind of like unique in that, uh, tim was pointing out a video brian did and then brian jumped on and tim jumped on. So, um, yeah, look I. I like I said this whole thing when I started seeing everybody get behind the pope. I was kind of like a little excited that like, maybe things like this might start happening again. So I'm, tim, you're 100 right on the like. These major issues have to be addressed. I want to give this Pope a little time to address them.

Speaker 3: 2:33:16

Me too. I want to give him time too. That's just what I was. I was like, don't mischaracterize me, he needs a little time, he's not going to do it. The first day Even I was thinking that to Anthony Stein. I just don't like people beating him up tone, policing him, cause we all have different voices and that is the mark of men as opposed to women. We're like, yeah, this guy uses this colorful way to say it, or maybe, as quicker to say it, this guy's more reticent or quiet, or doesn't use it. I just, I want I was I was joking when I said it, it sounded sarcastic I want all the voices.

Speaker 3: 2:33:46

But the point is, charity always requires justice first. It's like concentric circles. So there isn't. The reason that Brian and I are getting together is because you know Brian's a nice guy and I'm a nice enough guy to believe in dialogue. Always, always, always.

Speaker 3: 2:34:05

Men of goodwill will dialogue directly with each other. Always, always, always. Men of badwill will avoid dialogue. Apply that wherever you want, but, um, but I will say that it's it's, it's a rule of faith for human life that you get honest parties together. They'll always dialogue.

Speaker 3: 2:34:19

But what I'm saying about, uh, what's his name? Leo, pope, pope Leo the 14th, is that um it, this stuff won't start happening. Where, where, where you get true charity without justice. So if you do just get mimetic desire and people sort of kissing up or whatever I'm trying to use G language people kissing up and saying the politically correct thing now it's trad version of political correctness and it's not just and it is just covering for the Pope, like Pope Swayners did for for for Frank, like Lofton for Pope Francis, then you're not going to see the fruit of that tree. The fruit of the tree will be poisonous. This conversation is not going well, is not accruable to uh, to Leo the 14th. Yet we can start saying that once he, you know, passes the litmus test.

Speaker 3: 2:35:08

This is because Brian's a man of good faith and I'll stick up for myself, I'll, I'll, I'll dialogue with anyone I've ever beefed with. Sincerely. Thanks though, brian, and thanks Thanks, anthony. I just, I just didn't want to be called cause cause the trads used to do it, Cause I wasn't um down with me. I didn't go to an SSPX chapel. That also, tim doesn't really love the Latin mass. I was just getting sensitive when I hopped off and you were like the culture I only I drive 45 to go. That's when I got it?

Speaker 2: 2:35:37

Yeah, I thought so. I didn't know. I don't know. I know you love the Latin mass. I don't know how often you attended and stuff. So I was trying to relate it to like skateboard culture for you, because I see the residuals of that are still in your life, like that's because in your youth it kind of formed you and so it's like I I still. I don't want to even drag that whole thing up again.

Speaker 3: 2:35:58

I wasn't trying to mischaracterize you or or say anything about you know, I thought it was I was trying to make a point, yeah I was trying to make a point about culture, that's all yeah, no, we and I, just for full clarity sakes, uh, yeah, my, my family, we, we receive the sacraments only when we go to new Orleans. We're going to um double confirmation in new Orleans at the TLM, then we, I do, we do receive confession um at the you know boom or no sometimes we go to mass there, but we don't.

Speaker 3: 2:36:26

we don't typically receive the Eucharist, although I'm. I'm just'm just saying I'm in that club, I am a TLM supremacist and I love it. And I'm not making fun of trads for loving it, I'm with them. I'm just saying I get sick of the one-note song where they think if we all go to the TLM then we can abide Arianism or Nestorianism or whatever. This heresy at some point, god willing, in the future will be the condemned name of Francis's heresy. If Leo XIV is who we're hoping he is, then he will condemn this heresy and we'll be shut of it.

Speaker 2: 2:37:01

Any closing thoughts Brian.

Speaker 5: 2:37:05

Yeah, I'd say, the thing for me is we agree that there are cancers or there are diseases that need diagnosis, and I think we agree on the diagnosis. But the solution is where I think a lot of us are finding some disagreement and in my mind, I, I'm I'm trying to think of, like the sort of the long game opportunity that exists here, because I don't see a lot of short game opportunity. I don't see how we can, you know, stage a protest in front of saint Peter's or something like that, where they're gonna be like, oh okay, let's, let's, let's revise this, like I just don't see us. I don't think we have much power. I think that the power has to actually rise to the rank of the Episcopate, and only when that happens are we going to see some actual reforms here. Because I don't think this generation is going to see some actual reforms here, because I don't think this generation is going to do it as as good as um the some of the best candidates might be and, god willing, um pope leo the 14th is one of those candidates but if he's not, yeah, I don't see the reforms happening.

Speaker 5: 2:38:02

But I do see the reforms happening if we can cultivate a generation who will assume those roles.

Speaker 5: 2:38:07

And one of the best ways I think we can we can actually have that generation be solid is if they can gather in community, and the only way that they can do that is if there's there's latin mass communities for them to gather in.

Speaker 5: 2:38:18

Because, like just thinking of my own kids, if, if we get sent, if we get split up and and dispersed to novus ordos, um, the culture is going to swallow up like 75 of those kids and there's probably a good number of vocations religious vocations or clerical vocations in those numbers that wouldn't exist otherwise. In my archdiocese last year, or maybe it was the year before, there was four vocations that joined the seminary. Three of them came from our Latin mass chaplaincy. Those are people and again, like there's a whole missing generation of people who will be candidates for bishops, and it's the gen x in my archdiocese, which means that millennials are going to assume the roles of becoming bishops right away here and they're all super conservative. And if we can continue that trend and not just continue it but grow that generation, then I think that's the solution in my mind and so I think that it's a it's a dangerous oversight for them to allow the latin mass to continue the way this 100, 100 is beautifully expressed by you.

Speaker 3: 2:39:20

My, my whole concern is just you, never there's a, there's um. What does thomas say? The relation of the finite to the infinite is infinite, right? Um, you know, it's like a zero over 10 as opposed to one over 10 or something.

Speaker 3: 2:39:34

You never get to the doctrine, discipline, gap by just culture in a monarchy, and so I, I just everything as beautifully as you expressed it, double it for me as well, about what's amazing and sublime, about the tlmM that seems culturally to lack with the Novus Ordo, though it's valid, whatever that mystery of iniquity will turn out to be. But what you can't get, I don't think, even if there are 10 times more of us, I don't think you're going to get. If, as my theory goes, that this is a kind of top-down Golan mafioso culmination of the permanent instruction of the Alta Vendita, which is my strong belief, that's what the Golan group is, they're never going to allow it. Even if it's a public outcry, even if there's 10 times 10, as many of us in the Latin Mass, they're just always going to ignore it quiescently. They're just ignore it quiescently, they're just going to quiescently, uh, ignore it, notwithstanding the outcry. That's the danger of monarchies and that's, that's what we have.

Speaker 3: 2:40:40

So I'm just saying the mark of the monarch, irrespective of what we're doing in our beautiful families, beautiful latin mass culture of that, the mark of the good monarch here is he's going to be toiling to get rid of the, the heresy which has never happened before. It's in the act of apostolic ascetus If you listen to nothing else I said here today, people of avoiding Babylon, ryan, anthony, it's. This has never happened. That it's it's actually kind of deliberately stuck into the deposit of faith. This happened. This is, this is alert happened. That it's actually kind of deliberately stuck into the deposit of faith. This is alert. And that's all I've ever been worked up about with the Francis pontificate. That can't really easily be undone just by beautiful culture.

Speaker 5: 2:41:26

Yeah, and again, the thing I would say is that hopefully someone from the ensuing generation will be in a position where they can undo it. I just don't think the current generation is going to be able to do it.

Speaker 2: 2:41:39

Yeah, and let's honestly hope that Burke is still like Tim. You got something to him once before, so let's see if we can get at least something to him again to maybe hope for. Hope for something, because I think you are right about that. That clear. Well, like let's just. But, like I said, we're all, we all should just give, give the pope. I mean, let's give him a little time here. So maybe this was a 30 meeting was.

Speaker 3: 2:42:07

I didn't know that until I think this morning that he had been at the secret me I mean that that's my one. I have hope. I have hope because of that, but I I hadn't seen it as of most of last night until maybe very early this morning, so I I don't characterize me as not having hope. I think that that april 30th, entering to the top secret summit at burke's apartment, literally could be them having the conversation, some iteration of the conversation that that we just had.

Speaker 2: 2:42:34

Yeah, yeah, Tim, you did a record 90 hours of streaming this week man, space and time.

Speaker 3: 2:42:43

yesterday it was like five hours. I went on my friend quite frankly show after yours, so it was wild. It was a wild day. And man, what if it had been cardinal robert sarah? That that would have been better, but, but yeah, we still got.

Speaker 2: 2:42:59

We still got a little hopium left in this one. But yeah, I'm saying we had a little we had. I had hopium for not really sarah, I was hoping for a pizza ball, but and do and Dolan, I was pro Dolan man. You guys don't know what we missed out on, but bro.

Speaker 3: 2:43:15

I saw how much. Yeah, I mean, I get the, I get the irony. And I saw that article this morning. I thought maybe you'd disseminated it.

Speaker 2: 2:43:22

It's saying oh, save the hilarious to push the jolly, push the jolly, jolly fat irishman from new york as the pope. I'm not being serious for those of you on twitter, but all right, we're gonna wrap this up, both of you guys. Man, thank you both so much. We did three hours of streaming tonight, so, um yeah, man if something else comes up.

Speaker 4: 2:43:43

I just want to say a quick apology to brian myself. I allow my trenchant mouth to get me in trouble when I think people are going after tim and and I think I overreacted on that. So I also intend an apology your way.

Speaker 5: 2:43:56

Mr Holds, I don't. I don't know what the apology is for, Cause I didn't hear you say something, but I'll just.

Speaker 4: 2:44:03

I won't go looking for it. No, no, it wasn't anything big, I think I just said something that we were being school marmed, but that that was it All something that we were being school-marmed, but that I think that was it.

Speaker 3: 2:44:14

You're always welcome here in the Deep South, Brian. They'll wonder in Canadian ways.

Speaker 5: 2:44:20

I'm grateful for the opportunity to have had the conversation tonight. So thanks, Anthony, you too.

Speaker 2: 2:44:25

All right, guys, We'll see you next time. I'll see you boys.

Speaker 3: 2:44:27

God bless you all.

Speaker 2: 2:44:28

Adios, you too Peace.