1978: The Year of 3 Popes, 2 Conclaves, and 1 Papal Murder?

When 77-year-old priest Father Charles Murr gets behind the microphone, he doesn't just share memories – he unveils a chilling narrative about the systematic dismantling of Catholic tradition that he's witnessed since his ordination in 1977. What makes this conversation extraordinary isn't just the historical perspective, but Father Murray's personal proximity to pivotal Vatican events that changed the Church forever.

The picture Father Murr paints is startling. From the glory days of America's Catholic education system where tuition cost just $15 per year and devoted nuns taught packed classrooms, to the bewildering exodus of 500,000 religious sisters and 10,000 Jesuit priests after Vatican II. His most explosive revelations concern alleged Freemason infiltration at the highest levels of Church governance – including the architect of the Novus Ordo Mass and the cardinal responsible for appointing bishops worldwide.

Father Murr's firsthand account of Pope John Paul I's mysterious death after just 33 days in office reads like a spiritual thriller. As someone who drove Cardinal Gagnon to audiences with both John Paul I and John Paul II, his perspective on what happened behind closed Vatican doors offers rare insight into one of the Church's most perplexing moments. The connection between John Paul I's confrontation with corrupt officials and his sudden death raises questions that still linger today.

Despite witnessing decades of institutional deterioration and what he calls "the greatest crisis in 2,000 years of Church history," Father Murr maintains a surprising optimism about the upcoming conclave. His assessment of the cardinal electors, particularly those from Africa and Asia, suggests that divine intervention could still turn the tide. For anyone seeking to understand why traditional Catholics view the coming papal election as a pivotal moment for civilization itself, this conversation provides essential context and unexpected hope.

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Chapters

• 1:28 Meeting Father Murray After Two Years
• 5:25 The Declining Catholic Church Post-Vatican II
• 10:53 The Prophetic Words of Pope Paul VI
• 18:19 Freemasons and Their Infiltration Plans
• 27:07 The Crisis of Liturgical Reform
• 35:23 John Paul I's Brief Papacy and Mysterious Death
• 49:27 John Paul II's Near Miss With Assassination
• 1:01:07 Hope for the Coming Conclave

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:57

Sancte, sancte, amare morti decadas nos. In taste they're a verrant.

Speaker 2: 1:29

Good morning. Rob and I have been looking to get you on for about two years. We both bought Murder in the 33rd Degree two years ago, uh-uh, and we read our way through it and then something I think we got caught up talking about evolution and like it was like a series we did about evolution that I got invited to a conference and we just didn't get around to making sure we put the interview together and then, like almost a year had gone by and I I forgot about the book. And so I saw you on Joe McLean's show the other morning and and you started to give me a little bit of hope. So I've been?

Speaker 3: 2:11

isn't Joe a great guy?

Speaker 2: 2:13

Isn't McLean a great guy I think he is. So I, I, um, I kind of bounced between these two places with this coming conclave where I'm like, okay, I'm a little bit hopeful, Maybe we're going to get something good. And then the other place is like, oh no, we're in the end of the world and we're going to get the worst pope in history, so but you were we can't have that happen.

Speaker 2: 2:35

It's already happened, that's done, that is true, so, but it's also interesting because Rob is from Minnesota and you were born in Minnesota and I'm from New York and you said you actually were, were you?

Speaker 3: 2:49

incarnated in New York. Sure, I'm incarnated in New York. I was pastor of. I was on 87th Street at St Joseph in Yorkville, and then pastor at Our Lady of Guadalupe on 14th Street and then pastor of St Francis de Sales on 96th Street.

Speaker 2: 3:06

Oh, wow, okay, so, st Francis de. Sales. I know the other two I don't yeah. So what year were you?

Speaker 3: 3:16

ordained 77. I'm an old man. I'm an old man, anthony, 77. I'm an old man.

Speaker 2: 3:29

I'm an old man anthony, well, I'll be uh, I'll be 48 years, ordained on the 13th of may. That's awesome, oh, wow, that is awesome, may 13th, wow, yeah, so it. But it's also good for guys like us to hear the perspective of somebody who's kind of been through these. Um, because rob and I both remember francis's uh conclave. Uh, I remember very vividly benedict, I don't know how, how, how uh, because rob's a little bit younger than me, but and we I you know rob, rob and I both kind of grew up in the in the JP two Catholic era. You know where it was like it was. There was an excitement that was going on in the church back then. There's a lot of converts coming in and everybody. Just, you know it was the new springtime, we were talking about the hermeneutic of continuity and all these things.

Speaker 2: 4:20

And yes yes, yes, yeah, the hermeneutic of continuity and all these things.

Speaker 2: 4:21

Yes, yes, yes, yeah. So for the younger people that come in especially because we have a lot of guys in their 20s that watch this and they probably just had conversions or came into the church under Francis it's like a totally different way of seeing the church and especially looking back upon it and seeing those, you know, seeing Benedict and John Paul II. In this light of the modern traditionalists who didn't live through it. It's hard to explain to them the excitement that was going on in the church. But you were ordained in 1977, and you were in Rome for that 78 conclave right.

Speaker 3: 5:01

Both of them were in Rome for that 78 conclave, right, both of them. I was in Rome for the election of John Paul II and for Pope Benedict. I was in St Peter's Square on all of those occasions, benedict, I was in St Peter's Square on all of those occasions. Yeah, I'll just back up a little bit. You're starting not at the beginning, the two of you, it's not your fault, you weren't born then. But I'll tell you when.

Speaker 3: 5:35

The beginning was the beginning of this sort of season of hope, of a hope that came in, came in with the Second Vatican Council. Now, nobody knew what the Second Vatican Council was going to be about. Nobody knew Just that it was going to be an updating of things. Generally speaking, the church had to kind of understand that the church was in the world and had to get a little bit more with it, if you will. So we were looking for changes, exterior changes and things, right. Well, there wasn't excitement in the air. There really wasn't. Kennedy was president, our first Catholic president.

Speaker 3: 6:17

Pope John was sort of a not avant-garde, but sort of a progressive thinking man. But I mean, you have to see where he was coming from when we say progressive thinking. He was coming from the Middle Ages, and to be progressive thinking in the Middle Ages is not the same thing as a progressive thinker today. But it was an exciting time. The problem is that it never became more than an exciting time and it was sort of downhill from then. The excitement wore off in about 1967, 68. 1969, the new mask came out, 1970, 1969, 1970.

Speaker 3: 7:01

Through the 70s we had problems, defections, defections. I mean. We had 30,000 Jesuit priests in 1970. And by 1977, when I was ordained, 10,000 had left, left the priesthood. We had 500,000 nuns left the convent, holy cow, and this decimated not decimated depleted completely what the Catholic school system was in the United States. The two of you as much goodwill as you have have no idea what a jewel the Catholic school system was in the United States of America. It was something to be copied, emulated by everyone in the world. It was fantastic. It cost me listen to this. When I went to grade school, you know what the tuition was. We had all Dominican sisters. There were no lay people. There were no lay people teaching no late people. There were no late people teaching anything. The sisters sought eight grades.

Speaker 2: 8:06

It was 15 a year that is, that is a that's that included.

Speaker 3: 8:12

That included. That included your books, and that was with no federal or state help, right? So why? Because we had some fantastic women. I cannot underscore that enough. They're talking about the women's place in the churches. These women ran the church. They actually did. They were the backbone of the Catholic church in America. These pious women who gave up everything in their life to teach children to love God, and they did an incredible job. An incredible job. By 1975, we had lost 500,000 of them. Wow, and I'm not talking to death, just their number. The women who had left became disenchanted with their vocation and just left, and everything started going downhill from then.

Speaker 2: 9:05

Now I don't want to paint a picture of doom and gloom because there were great spots in that too what was it like to actually live through that and see those things happening?

Speaker 2: 9:17

Because we man I kind of get I'll get a doom and gloom outlook on the way things are now. But as this whole cascade of everything falling apart is kind of in the air all these, you know the nuns leaving their orders and the Jesuit priests leaving, and you know, as the craziness of the 60s dies down, then you get the new mass at the end of the 60s and then the 70s comes and you know, the fervor of the revolution starts dies down. Then you get the new mass at the end of the 60s and then the 70s comes and, yeah, you know the, the fervor of the revolution starts to die down. Then that conclave comes in 1978 and you guys, well, the church elects john paul I and then within 30 days the man dies. So your whole book is about that actual conclave there. So you were in Rome for both of those conclaves, right, that 30-day period.

Speaker 3: 10:10

Yes, look, the thing is this too. It's not just that. We lost 10,000 Jesuits and 40,000 priests in the United States and 500,000 nuns all over the world, and we lost our school system. Schools began closing, churches began closing. Our universities were more secular than they were Catholic. We had to cover up crucifixes to be able to talk, because we started taking federal government money and therefore religion had to be covered up a little bit. You couldn't be as boldly Catholic. So all of these things were happening, and you know, I'll tell you this.

Speaker 3: 10:52

You remember the prophet Jeremiah in the Old Testament? Oh yeah, jeremiah foretold. He told the Jews that they were all going to be sold into slavery. He said if you don't change, god is going to let you be slaves of the Egyptians. You're going to be. That's it. Well, jeremiah sat on a rock and watched his people being led off to slavery and he cried out to God that he wished that he had been wrong. Why can't you make me wrong? I wish I were wrong. I wish I didn't even know this was happening, but I've been telling these people this for years.

Speaker 3: 11:31

There were many of us who knew we were going in the wrong direction, but nobody was listening. It's like the momentum was so strong, it was just going on and when you mention that something was wrong, people will say no, no, no, no, it's going to get better. Just watch. Well, it didn't get better, it got progressively worse. Right, so it was when, john. Well, here's the deal In 1972, pope Paul VI was pope.

Speaker 3: 12:06

The deal In 1972, pope Paul VI was pope. He said the smoke of Satan has somehow filtered through some fissure in the wall and it has filled the sanctuary of the Lord with smoke. Everybody was taken aback by that. What in the world is he talking about? This is during a homily world is he talking about? This is during a homily. Finally he became. He was a liberal, finally. He was getting the idea that things weren't going right. He was the Pope In 1974, two cardinals brought proof to him that some of the members of his government, the Roman Curia at least one, actually actually two, two were Freemasons. They were in cahoots with the Freemasons of Italy to topple the Vatican. Now, this sounds absolutely. It sounds crazy. It sounds like I'm talking, I'm a conspirator's theorist. It's actually. It's actually true. There are people still in prison because of that today. Right, those who weren't killed and didn't commit suicide.

Speaker 2: 13:12

People hear Freemason now and it sounds like you know, oh, that's a conspiracy theory. But if you go back before the council, every single Pope since, like the 18th and 19th centuries, were warning about this 1730s I think. Actually, when the first popes start warning about these secret societies and talking about how there's going to be this Freemasonic attempt to you know, the Alt of Vendita comes out and the popes were warning emphatically about this happening.

Speaker 3: 13:42

And then they wrote the cyclicals on it right yes.

Speaker 2: 13:47

Yes.

Speaker 3: 13:50

We were not alive. We were not alive, but during the time of Pope Pius IX, he was pope for 32 years. Imagine that he was the longest reigning pope. Imagine that he was the longest reigning pope. In the 1870s there was Vatican I, the first Vatican Council. That never finished because the rebels came in and took over Rome. When he died, when the pope died, he remained in the Vatican for the rest of his life and he considered himself a prisoner of the Vatican.

Speaker 3: 14:34

When he died, there was a battle, if you can imagine, on the bridge of the holy angels. If you know Rome, you know Bernini's beautiful, the bridge, sacred bridge, in Sant'Angeli of the angels holding the instruments of passion. Anyway, they were crossing with his body to be buried in San Lorenzo. He wanted to be buried outside of the Vatican because he had spent his whole life inside the Vatican. He wanted to make a statement, so he asked to be buried in San Lorenzo, a beautiful basilica in Rome, outside the Vatican. On that bridge was a battle between the Freemasons and, thank God for the Catholic youth of Accione Cattolica. There was a battle that they wanted to. They were about to throw his body into the Tiber River, take it out of the coffin and throw it. This is, yeah, it's incredible. These were the Freemasons, right, this is what they were up to and their decision was they are absolutely pronounced against the Catholic Church. There's no question about it.

Speaker 3: 15:34

Now, in the 1978, 1974, we had this problem of these cardinals bringing this to the Pope's attention. The Pope Paul VI called for an investigation and he named an investigator who was Cardinal Gagnon. Edward Gagnon, a French-Canadian, brilliant man, holy man, pious man. He worked for three years on this investigation and told the Holy Father, yes, that there were at least two major players who were Freemasons in the Vatican. One of them was a man by the name of Annabel Bugnini. He was the architect, if you will. I think architect is a good term for a Freemason. He was the architect of the new mass. I think architect is a good term for a Freemason. He was the architect of the new mass, the new mass that you attend every Sunday or every day if you go to mass.

Speaker 2: 16:39

He was transferred out of the Vatican. When that was discovered, he was transferred to Iran, given a nothing place in Iran.

Speaker 3: 16:44

This is after he already had his hands in creating his yes, this is.

Speaker 2: 16:47

This is post-destruction yeah, this is post-destruction. Yeah, he did all the damage and then he gets shipped off and it's like, yeah, this is this is closing the.

Speaker 3: 16:53

This is closing the barn door after the horses have escaped, right, yeah, yeah and then? So what was more important was that the man who was naming all of the Catholic bishops in the world, whose name was Baggio B-A-G-G-I-O, first name Sebastian was a Freemason, if you can imagine. If you can imagine a Freemason naming your bishops. He was the one who appointed bishops all over the world. He was in charge of naming bishops.

Speaker 2: 17:28

Is it so much different than Supich? It's incredible. Is it so much different than Supich telling Francis who to elevate?

Speaker 1: 17:35

in America. It's not right?

Speaker 2: 17:37

No, it's the same thing, we're still seeing whether they have the actual membership in Freemasonry. Like that's right. Doing the same exact thing, right, so I could, I could not agree with you more how long had baggio been in that position?

Speaker 1: 17:51

how long had he been naming bishops?

Speaker 3: 17:54

at that point? Well, uh, he was. He was in that position for 12 years, and these were post post-coun years, post-conciliar years when, if you bear with me just a moment here, before the council, every bishop was the bishop of his diocese until he died, just like the pope. Yeah, if the man lived to be 104, he was the bishop of his diocese. He was the bishop of Brooklyn at 103. Other people logically helped him run the diocese, but he didn't go anywhere.

Speaker 3: 18:33

All of a sudden, pope Paul VI published a decree saying that every man at 75 will resign, present his resignation as bishop. That's why bishops now resign at age 75. Well, now, you can be against that, you can be for it, it really doesn't matter. But what I'm saying is to what happened during that time. All of a sudden, you've got all of these bishops, a huge amount of bishops, who resigned because they're over 75. All of these bishops, a huge amount of bishops who resigned because they're over 75. They were replaced by liberal, progressive bishops appointed by a Freemason, sebastian Caballo. This is what this was. This is incredible, yeah this was them.

Speaker 3: 19:16

So we had, you were right, but they almost did it overnight. This is what I'm saying. It was just, it was a boom.

Speaker 2: 19:23

Yeah, they take out the old guard and they put their young revolutionaries in play. It was almost man. This is to not see this as even from back then, because we recently heard Cardinal Mueller. I think it was last year he gets, he was on with Raymond Arroyo and he's like we are talking about a hostile takeover of the Catholic Church, but this takeover began well before the Francis pontificate. Oh, it didn't start this morning.

Speaker 3: 19:55

It didn't start this morning, I'll tell you that, and see, and it was easier to perform because this is now after the Second Vatican Council, after the council, that's that. That's proposing change. Ok, good, so we're in this thing of change. So, anyone who questioned it Well, there's something wrong with you. What are you against? Change Are? Are you against new ideas, new growth? What's the matter with you? Yeah, okay, so everything was geared that way.

Speaker 3: 20:30

We had a papal nuncio in the United States, jadot J-A-D-O-T. He was Belgian, he was the only son of a Belgian diamond mine owner. That's how you become Papal Nuncio. Anyway, he was the one in the United States who was selecting these men, and then he would send the names to Rome, to Cardinal Baggio. He wrote an article in, not wrote an article. He was interviewed in Time magazine when he resigned and he said the proudest thing that he had done was to name, or have named, 75 or 78 liberal bishops to the United States of America who were going to effect change.

Speaker 3: 21:20

So we've been in this for a long time. The two of you, gentlemen, you were born after the council, so you have no real point of reference. But believe me, look, the church has always had problems. The church is made up of human beings and when you've got anything to do with human beings you've got problems always. But I'm telling you it was run up until the 1960s Incredibly incredibly smooth. We were the envy of the world, seriously, and the church was growing and growing and growing and missionary zeal.

Speaker 3: 21:58

Now I don't know if you remember this, but just a few years ago, four or five years ago, a missionary from the Amazon, pope Francis, was very interested in the Amazon, whatever his reason was, and then he brought in a pagan idol and put the pagan idol on the altar, the high altar of St Peter's Basilica. It's incredible. I thought I was having a I don't know what, not a nightmare, because I was awake. It was a day mare. I guess I couldn't believe what I was seeing or hearing. But this man was a missionary. He was an Italian priest, missionary for 40 years in the Amazon, and the Pope invited him to the opening of one of his synod talks. This man's great pride and joy was that in 40 years he had not baptized one single person and he was applauded Like what. It's incredible.

Speaker 3: 23:00

So this is the confusion we're all in right now and after this pontificate, the last one that just ended. I've never seen so much confusion in my life. Actually, it's not confusion because I, in particular, am not confused. I see very clearly what's happening. I get it. We are in a war, that's what we're in in a dilemma, but I'm not confused about it because I happen to know right from wrong and I happen to know my catechism since I was a boy in school very well. I know what the church teaches. We're in crisis because the church wanted to be in crisis. For some reason, she put herself in crisis and I'm saying you can figure it out for yourselves. I think the crisis oh, by the way, just I'll end with this Five days ago, 10 days ago, whatever it was three lodges of the Masonic Brotherhood in Europe one from France, two in Italy lauded, applauded Pope Francis. This was the kind of pope we've been waiting for for years. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. It was the. And you're applauded by the Freemasons. It was the accomplishment.

Speaker 2: 24:20

There's something wrong. The accomplishment of the Al vendita, francis, he, he was the, the ultimate goal of the alta vendita, and you know it's. It's interesting to watch people kind of try to sugarcoat the past 12 years. Yes, but they were very painful for faithful catholics, because all the things you're talking about what happened is they. You know, you had your Archbishop Lefebvre who really was in shock when he saw the Assisi meetings, the way we were when we saw the Pachamama incident. But when he saw Assisi he was in shock like we were.

Speaker 2: 24:57

But the rest of the world thought nothing of it and they just looked at oh, like a humanism, like I remember not even hearing about the Assisi meetings until 2017. It's, but so you for us to um the conversation that takes place after the council it's not about traditional liturgy and things like that. They wind up changing the overton window so much that the conversation then becomes between the communal guys and the concilium guys and nobody's even talking about like a return to tradition. At that point they just shifted the overton window so much that it it's interesting to watch 50, 60 years later, 50 like the conversation about tradition doesn't really come back until the francisificate Under Francis. Then we start going. Wait a minute. Maybe this whole council was a mistake, but it took a very long time to get there.

Speaker 3: 25:52

Yes, and let me just be clear on this, I am not of the opinion that the council was a mistake. Okay, I've read the council documents. I've studied the council documents. There are many cases in those documents where clarification is needed.

Speaker 2: 26:10

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 26:11

Right, but that's all. Clarification was needed. This was what Cardinal Ratzinger and Pope Benedict was trying to do, little by little, clarifying these ambiguous points. Ambiguity was the language of the council, because you had the left coming in and they were trying to get the right. They were trying to pull the right with them, and they could do that by using ambiguity. They said what do you mean? Well, what do you think I mean? Oh, well, that's it. We both believe the same thing, right, until we didn't, and it was clear, so that ambiguity had to be cleared up.

Speaker 3: 26:56

The thing with Assisi it was shocking, because those of us who were educated as Catholics knew that that was wrong. You do not pray with heathens. You don't do that. You don't hate heathens, you don't hate the pagans. That's not the point. You love them. They're human beings, you respect them, but you don't go. I mean the very idea that the Holy Father, the Pope of Rome, the vicar of Christ on earth, is praying with an American Indian who's praying to the great toe yeah, this is mind-boggling. Or the great thumb, I don't know if it was a toe or a thumb. What are you talking about? This is just. This is crazy, and you're putting everything on the same level, but when this is what Francis just did all religions are the same. He said the same thing. This is heresy. All religions are not the same. If you believe that all religions are the same, you don't belong in the Catholic Church.

Speaker 1: 28:00

Because we have one religion.

Speaker 3: 28:01

We have one founder, who's Christ. That's it. There's one way.

Speaker 2: 28:06

That experience. When you actually watched that happen, were you alarmed yourself, because I was too young, I had no idea that that even happened.

Speaker 3: 28:16

Yes, we were alarmed. Many of us were alarmed, anthony, we were alarmed. But at the same time, the world around us is saying isn't this wonderful? Yeah, they're all getting along. Isn't that beautiful? All of these religions are finally getting along. Who wanted that? All along, the Freemasons? This is what they want. All religions are the same. They're not different. They're all praying to the same God. No, we're not. No, we're not. We have a trinity, a triune God. God has revealed his own nature and we hold that sacrosanct. All of these, these other, these are superstitions and this. You're going to put everything on the same level. But the world applauded that. The world thought this was wonderful. So when you hear the applause of the world and the world praising you, kind of you become a little bit quiet. Yeah, even though you're not in agreement, you just you watch it so okay.

Speaker 2: 29:17

So now you've, you've witnessed all of this, go on, and then you've watched the francis papacy happen, but you're still hopeful for this next conclave. That because I I get. I mean, I look at the men that are there and I'm just like man, it is going to take divine intervention for us to get a Catholic as the next Pope. Like there's so many men there that aren't Catholic, they don't have the faith. Like these are godless men who are concerned with the issues of the day climate change and immigration and they're very political men and to me it's. They dress up in the garb of religiosity but they're not speaking of the God we know. So to me, I see the Sanhedrin when I look at them, you know, and I'm just begging God to be merciful to us and give us one of the few men there that actually do believe the Catholic faith.

Speaker 3: 30:20

If you're seeing the Sanhedrin, when you're looking at many of these men, you're an optimist.

Speaker 2: 30:28

Oh man.

Speaker 3: 30:29

You're an optimist. Look, look, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Look, look, here's the thing. Here's the thing. I don't believe. I'm trying to be realistic and I'm not trying to be a reactionary, but I'm telling you I have never seen anything in the history of the church and I know my my church history pretty well I've never seen anything in the last 2 000 years that compares to the last 12. Yeah, why? Why do I say that?

Speaker 3: 30:57

And people will say well, we had bad popes in the just a minute. We might have had morally bad men living morally bad lives. They did not contradict the Catholic faith. Their teaching was straight on. They didn't vary on that. I always use the example of this. They didn't vary on that. I always use the example of this. Probably the Borgia popes have the fame of being the worst popes in the world. You have to be very careful of that, because that feeds into what we call the black legend, that the English during the Reformation the English Reformation really were anti-Spanish, anti-catholic and they created an awful lot of myths. But also, the Borgias were Spaniards and they had the throne of Peter. They were hated in Italy because they were Spaniards. So history has not been nice to them and a lot of things that we read about them were simply not true, but let's say they were. Alexander VI was pope, a Borgia pope. He was reputed to have had seven or nine illegitimate children okay.

Speaker 3: 32:06

A group of priests from southern Italy made a pilgrimage to Rome when they heard that the Borgia Pope was on the throne, and they knew his fame. They knew that he had lived a let me just call it a loose lifestyle. Should we put it that way? They said. And these priests walked from southern Italy to Rome in a pilgrimage with their concubines and with their children, asking for a change in celibacy. This is in 1492, asking for a change in celibacy. They said well, we've got the perfect man right now as Pope, because he's living a wicked life. The Pope answered them, did not receive them when they arrived in Rome, but he sent a message to them I'll take care of my sins, you take care of your sins. I'm not changing the law of the church to accommodate my life. I'll answer for my sins before God. We're not changing the laws to make my life easier. That's not what this is about. I take my hat off to such a man. I take my hat off to such a man. Also.

Speaker 3: 33:22

There was an english martyr that I was just reading about, and I should be ashamed of myself for not remembering his name. Uh, a womanizer, an alcoholic, during the time of henry the eighth in england. What was his name? You know?

Speaker 2: 33:35

I can't remember his, his name, but the quote that he says when he goes to his martyrdom is amazing. I'll let you say the quote, but it's amazing, isn't that fantastic?

Speaker 3: 33:44

An adulterer, a womanizer, a fornicator. I have always been A heretic, I have never been. And he's a saint, that's it, he's a saint. And he's a saint Because he gave his life. He gave his life in testimony for that, for the truth. Yeah, man, I can't Rob look, so I guess what I'm saying, anthony and Rob, there's hope for us, yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:07

Yeah, we gotta pray that the, that with the, with the, with the office comes Divine grace St Andrew Waters.

Speaker 3: 34:15

Yes, that's him. There you go. Yeah, st Andrew, that's right, st Andrew.

Speaker 2: 34:20

Yeah, we we have to pray with the office comes. Uh, you know, because we've seen that through church history, where a crooked man winds up taking the papacy, but then some kind of grace gets conferred upon the man and he doesn't. He doesn't after he becomes pope. It's almost like you know. Yeah, that opinion was me before that, but now we are the royal, we and I don't hold that opinion anymore.

Speaker 1: 34:44

And that's like St Thomas.

Speaker 2: 34:48

Yes, that's right. That's right Question yes.

Speaker 1: 34:52

The audience here. You mentioned that, that Bonini was a Freemason, obviously, and he was responsible for the major liturgical reforms from the 50s, you know, through the Novus Ordo. If we have a restoration, should we go back to something prior to everything he did? Or how should we view the new Mass through the lens of what we know now about who made?

Speaker 3: 35:17

it. Great question. Great question and a logical one. I would say this this is my opinion. Okay, I'm giving you my opinion, which doesn't make it gospel. Let's be clear on that. As far as I'm concerned, there were certain things that should have changed. We do progress with time and changes are made in things.

Speaker 3: 35:46

The very fact that we have the mass is because the mass organically changed from its beginning. Things were added, things were taken away. It was codified in 1570 by Pope Pius V. Okay, but basically the mass has been the same. The Catholic mass has been the same for about 1800 years, and some would say 1900 years, right, some would say 1900 years, right. It's been this form. Things come, things go, things change.

Speaker 3: 36:21

We add, for example, we add saints to our calendar, right? Well, that's a change, that's a change, right? Good. So how do we change that? How do we accommodate? Fine, there's there. There's also, for example, for example, every every sunday in the old calendar there was the same gospel, the same gospel, the same god, every year. Today, in the new mass, we have a three-year cycle, and so we we're, we get a little bit more of scripture put in.

Speaker 3: 36:56

I think that's refreshing. I think most priests agree with that. These are wonderful changes. What's not wonderful is having people skateboarding at the offertory, women dancing during the consecration, women dancing during the consecration, priests inventing this, doing hulas and shouting no. This is insanity. This isn't change. This isn't good. We've lost a whole sense of the sacred. We've lost a whole sense of the sacred.

Speaker 3: 37:35

I'm not saying that we have to go back to. Everything was perfect before. Everything was not perfect before. That's why they called the council. Everybody saw that there was a need for a little bit of dusting off, a new look at some things. For example, we never had until recently, the entire Mass was in Latin. Right Now, what I'm saying is so were the readings. So were the readings Now what Popes, even before the Council, said you can do the first reading in the Gospel in the vernacular Marvelous Good, so people can understand it. This is the gospel in the vernacular Marvelous Good, so people can understand it. This is what I'm saying by changes. Right, it's not necessary to go back. What's necessary is to reform, a proper reformation, and that can happen. There's some dusting off. That needed to be done. It was done. It wasn be done. It was done. It wasn't done. It was overdone. They threw out the baby with the bathwater. This is what I'm saying. This is what happened.

Speaker 3: 38:45

Let me give you an example. We had one canon. What is the canon? The canon is the mass after the sanctus, holy, holy, holy, lord God. Right After that, until the communion is finished, that's until the up to communion. That is the canon.

Speaker 3: 39:02

Not one word of that was to be changed. The council said this. I didn't say this. The Vatican council, too, said not one word of the Roman canon is to be changed. Yeah, well, that's pretty clear, isn't it? The last time you went to mass, I'll bet you didn't hear the Roman canon is to be changed. Well, that's pretty clear, isn't it? The last time you went to Mass, I'll bet you didn't hear the Roman canon.

Speaker 3: 39:24

What did Bunini do? Bunini said well, now, just a minute. The council says that we can't change one word of the Roman canon. I know what we'll do. I'm going to invent three more canons. Yeah, right, so we've got Eucharistic prayer number one, number two, number three and number four, and this isn't. This is crazy. This isn't what the council said to do. And then he puts in all of these. And you know that. I've just got to tell you this, because this, to me, is one of the most unbelievable things. I heard it myself from Father Louis Boyer. He worked with Buñini in the creation of the new Mass. I heard him say this himself. I heard him say this himself. He did a conversion in his life and came back to reality, but he reported this.

Speaker 3: 40:24

The second Eucharistic prayer. This is the one that you hear every time you go to Mass. You know why you hear it Because it's the shortest, not because it's the most beautiful. It's the shortest. You are holy, indeed the most beautiful, it's the shortest, you are holy indeed. Lord, the fountain of all holiness, let your spirit come upon these gifts to make them holy, so that they may become the body and blood. That's the second that was written by Father Bouyer. Now be careful here. If you listen to Bognini when he presented this, he would tell you that this is the oldest canon of the Catholic Church. We found this, we found this among the documents. This is the oldest and it's the most beautiful. Father Bouillet finally confessed. He said no, I was out to dinner one night in Trastevere at a pizza place, having a glass of wine with a consociate, and I noticed that my canon, this Eucharistic prayer, had to be on Bunini's desk at 10 o'clock the next morning.

Speaker 3: 41:25

We wrote it out on a napkin in the restaurant. This is what we're using. Is that an organic development of the mass? What's organic about that? An organic development of the mass, what's organic?

Speaker 2: 41:40

about that, Except for the pizza sauce and even the receiving on the hand is it's antiquarianism.

Speaker 1: 41:44

All of that is terrible.

Speaker 2: 41:47

It's just antiquarianism. It's like, oh, we found some statement from Justin Martyr who talks about this. But it's like it's just the reason that the church developed these things over time was because they knew that it would be the best for souls and the liturgy that the church developed sustained civilization for nineteen hundred sixty years. So to just kind of overturn that is just insane. Like, yeah, you're right, there are, there is room for maybe making people able to hear the gospel and the readings and the vernacular, but you know, to just wholeheartedly just upend everything like that was. It must've been shocking for the people, especially those, the little ones, the devout little ones who just you know they would. They would just go to mass and then all of a sudden everything changed on them. It must have been such a hard thing.

Speaker 3: 42:40

Let me tell you something else too, anthony. That was fantastic Because of Catholic schools. We were 54 people in my classroom, 54 students and one nun maintained order 54, right, and believe me, we learned. Anybody who graduated from a Catholic school was two years ahead of public school kids, we were taught. We had what was called the dialogue mass. We were taught as children the answers to all of the responses in Latin. So when we went to mass and the priest said Dominus vobiscum, we answered that conspiracy. To all Sursum corda, we answered avemus ad dominum. We answered this. This was. Our participation was fantastic. It wasn't that we were completely ignorant. We knew what was going on.

Speaker 3: 43:33

Communion in the hand. This was a creation by Martin Luther. Don't let them tell you, this is the early church. Martin Luther did this to ruin the idea that Catholic superstition of the real presence. Yeah, and it worked real well. Last year they did a study, didn't they? 70% of American Catholics do not believe that that host is the body of christ. Well, congratulations, they were. They were successful in their campaign. Yeah, that's what they wanted to do.

Speaker 3: 44:07

You know, you know this too. If you're married, you can tell me how much you love your wives. But if I see you in public mistreating her, calling her names or paying no attention to her, you're not going to fool me that you love your wives. I see the way you treat her. Well, if we treat the blessed sacrament that way filthy hands, pieces falling on the floor, we're walking on them. Anybody can give out communion. It's a hodgepodge and we we've done this and we've done it for the purpose of taking away the sacred. We have two directions on the cross, our symbol. Two directions horizontal and vertical. We're left with this. Yeah, just vertical.

Speaker 2: 45:00

So, true, um, okay, so to go back, to go back to the conclave that elects john paul I. So he gets elected, now he's only there for 30 days and then he dies. Now 33 days. 33 days now, what, what? Because it's, it's a very mysterious circumstance that happens with him. What, what, what do you think happened there?

Speaker 3: 45:27

first of all, why was he elected?

Speaker 3: 45:30

yeah all right, I I go. I I'm not going to get into my book, but it's in the book and I don't want to get bogged down with detail. The election was between three men Cardinal Siri of Genoa, Cardinal Sebastian Baggio of the Roman Curia and Giovanni Benelli of the Secretary of State, the Secretary of State. When Benelli saw that Baggio was gaining in votes, Benelli threw his votes over to a neutral candidate by the name of Albino Luciani from Venice. He won. So Cardinal Benelli of Florence was the one who saved the day in that, and he was a friend and ally of Gagnon right.

Speaker 3: 46:26

Yes, yeah, these are the good guys. These are the good guys. But what I'm saying is we had for a moment, for a while, while we had a Freemason leading the race. Could you imagine actually electing a Freemason?

Speaker 1: 46:45

as Pope of Rome. I think it happens.

Speaker 3: 46:49

You don't have a real hard time imagining that, do you we?

Speaker 3: 46:53

won't go into that. Let's steer away from that, shall we? I like having my head attached to my neck, but the point is this. The point is this he won the election, luciani, he's a good man Let me start by this one A man who first of all, believed in God yeah, and feared God in the proper sense of the word. To fear the Lord, the first thing he did was he asked Cardinal Benelli to be his Secretary of State and Cardinal Benelli said yes, he agreed state. And Cardinal Benelli said yes, he agreed.

Speaker 3: 47:41

As soon as you call in Cardinal Gagnon, who actually was Archbishop still at that time, archbishop Gagnon, who just finished the three-year investigation of the Roman Curia, that is, of your government, holy Father, the people you've got who are surrounding you, you have to read his report because there's some house cleaning needed to be done before we go any further. There's some people to just say goodbye, to get them out of here and clean house. Well, the Pope, john Paul. I called in Gagnon I know because I drove Gagnon to the audience. He went up and saw the Pope, handed him his entire study, the three-year study on the Roman Curia, and came down very positive. We drove back home. He was elated with the audience how it went. And the Pope took the documents and was studying them. He finally came to this he said the Pope now said the Pope was a little bit timid. If he had one defect it was his he was shy. It's like all of us Nobody wants confrontation, we don't look for it. If it happens, okay, it happened, but you're not out looking for it. Those we call brutes Brutes are out doing that. Well, sometimes those subways can be brutal, anyway. So the Pope called in Gagnon. Gagnon gave him the study and he began studying exactly what had to be done. So he said to the pope John Paul, I called Benelli in Florence, said you're going to be my secretary of state, you're going to come back to the Vatican and help me run this place.

Speaker 3: 49:37

Yes, he said, why don't you get rid of Baggio? Why don't you get rid of Cardinal Baggio? Baggio was in power, believe me, he was in power. And Benelli said no, holy Father, you have to do that. You as Pope have to do that. That has to be the first thing that you do as an act that people can see, so they know where we're going, where this is going. You have to do that. I can't do that for you. You've got to do it, all right, all right. Well, he tried getting an appointment with Baggio. Baggio refused to see him.

Speaker 3: 50:11

He was busy constantly. Imagine telling the Pope that you're busy. He was busy constantly. Imagine telling the Pope that you're busy. Yeah, so, no, no, I can't make it today. Sorry, I'm busy. I've got a ping pong lesson or something. Whatever.

Speaker 3: 50:24

He made up incredible, just an incredible man. Finally, the Pope said to him look, I need to speak. We need to speak. When can you come? He said well, today is off. He said then tonight, then tonight. He said don't tell me you're busy tonight After eight o'clock. You're busy. What are you doing after eight o'clock? I'll wait for you here in my office at eight o'clock.

Speaker 3: 50:54

Well, bajo arrived at 8 pm that night. They sat down and talked and the Pope offered him. He said leave the congregation for bishops and you can take Venice. You can be Archbishop of Venice. Why was Venice free? Because that's where John Paul I came from. So there's no archbishop in Venice and also John Paul. I had his own friends who were auxiliary bishops, and the monsignors and all the secretaries, so Baggio would be there and, under complete control, they could watch him. Baggio was furious, absolutely rejected the idea, said he was not leaving. They were shouting, as we know from the Swiss guards who reported it Standing outside the door. It was in the evening. Baggio left in a huff After about an hour talking and the Pope was dead about three hours later. Wow, right now.

Speaker 3: 52:02

I said to Cardinal Gagnon. I asked Cardinal Gagnon that next Sunday the three of us went out walking. All of Rome was talking about the Pope being poisoned or being killed. Who did it? Who did it? Well, only Cardinal Gagnon knew that the last person to talk to him was Baggio and, as a matter of fact, the only person who reported it was Time Magazine. Time Magazine, of all the magazines, reported that the last person to talk to him was Baggio. I said to Cardinal Gagnon Do you think that the Holy Father was murdered? And Gagnon said to me he said, charlie, there are many ways of killing a man. There are many ways to kill a man. You don't have to poison him. Is that the other thing he said? If the man had a heart attack, he had a heart attack, which is believed that he had a heart attack. Who caused that? How was that caused? It was caused by somebody screaming back at him as Pope. This is unheard of. All right.

Speaker 3: 53:11

So we had a second election. The same thing happened again, with the same three people in a stalemate. Cardinal Benelli of Florence again pulls another rabbit out of his hat and said Wojtyla of Poland, I throw my votes to Wojtyla. He was elected. Finally, wojtyla called in Gagnon. He said all right, show me this study of three years. Called in Gagnon, he said all right, show me this study of three years. And Wojtyla told Gagnon that he didn't think about, he wasn't thinking about, making any changes soon. Whatever the reason, who knows right? Who knows? If somebody's telling you that marauders are at your door and your wife and children are inside, you're not going to say well, let me finish watching the football game and we'll see. That's what he did, though he did not act. He received Gagnon.

Speaker 3: 54:07

I drove Gagnon to the audience, took Gagnon home and when he came back, after speaking to John Paul II, he said what are you doing the day after tomorrow? I said what do you want me to do? He said I want you to drive me to the airport. I quit, I'm out of here. I can't handle this. He said let this go wherever it's going Put me back into the jungles in Colombia and I'll preach a devotion to the sacred heart. I've had it here, this is it, but he told the Holy Father. He told the Holy Father three things. He told the Holy Father three things.

Speaker 3: 54:44

John Paul II, three things, one, one. You have a Freemason naming all of the bishops of the world Right under your nose. Secondly. Secondly, the Vatican Bank is about to explode, about to explode in a scandal because it's not being handled at all. And you've got a man who is an American at this time, paul Marchinkas, who is not a bad and evil man as many times he's presented. He was just an incompetent man for finances. He was giving letters of credit, letters of credit to strange people, very wealthy people, powerful Letters of credit. In other words, he would say with this letter of credit, you go to such and such a bank in Switzerland and they'll give you $5 million and we, the Vatican, will back that up. Well, he did this to many people. All of those people were Freemasons, all of them were Freemasons and they called all of those letters. Now it was to collapse the Vatican's finances.

Speaker 3: 55:58

This is what the whole plot was, and that was done by the Freemasons of a lodge called Propaganda II. That was the lodge. You can read all about that. It was horrific. But he said and a third thing, holy Father, there's a plot against your life, he said. And the Pope. I said and what did the Pope say when you said there's a plot against his life going on? Gagnon said. He answered me. He said who would want to kill the Pope? Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 1: 56:35

Gagnon left.

Speaker 3: 56:38

They shot the Pope Of. That's it. And they and you're left, they shot the Pope. Of course the Vatican bank exploded. The whole scandal. They shot the Pope. He's in the hospital went through a whole trauma.

Speaker 3: 56:47

I don't know how he survived. I do know how he survived. He survived by a New Yorker, a New York doctor by the name of Kevin Cahill. God bless him. A New Yorker, a New York doctor by the name of Kevin Cahill, god bless him. Cardinal O'Connor, from New York, flew to Rome to save the life of John Paul II. The Italian doctors.

Speaker 3: 57:04

I love Italians, don't get me wrong. I love Italians. Their art is beautiful. Their love, their ideas, concepts of love is beautiful. Their music, their food is beautiful. Medicine is not one of the things I love about them. Their doctors had given the Holy Father. When he was shot in the assassination attempt on May 13th 1981, they gave him contaminated blood. So the Holy Father is not only dying of bullet wounds, he's now got hepatitis. I mean, they almost killed him. Were it not for Kevin Cahill from New York, dr Kevin Cahill, who flew there, he would have died. He saved his life. Anyway, when the Holy Father came to after weeks in the hospital, they say I wasn't there to hear it, but they say that the first words out of his mouth were find Gagnon. Yeah, find Archbishop Gagnon. Well, they searched all over the place, found him in Colombia and brought him back to Rome. He made him a cardinal and he got rid of Baggio. Finally. All right, that's where we're at, but this is how close we came to the brink, to the brink.

Speaker 2: 58:30

Well, you made an important point about John Paul. I being a timid man and, you know, not looking for conflict, and that's kind of what I even see. Going into this conclave I see a lot of men. I do see a group of men who are holy and believe the Catholic faith, but they also seem very timid to me and I'm just really wondering like, in this coming conclave, do you think we will see one of those highlights of church history where things get a little hectic and you know, behind the scenes they put their foot down? Or do you think these men are going to just go along with? After the past 12 years of seeing what the devastation caused in the church, do you think any of the men in there are going to do what is needed for the election of this next pope?

Speaker 3: 59:22

Anthony, I'm going to be very positive and say, yes, I do believe that, because I do. I believe that there are enough men in this conclave to make a remarkable change in the direction of the church, and I also believe that you haven't heard from them because the majority of them are silent. We have one problem here that was created by Pope Francis, and he did this on purpose. There are so many voters that they don't know one another. No one knows anyone. This is so you're going to. You're going to start the whole conclave in confusion. Yeah, you're starting like who are you? Where do you come from? He named. He named Cardinals in Cucamonga and in Timbuktu, where there's no Catholic population, there's no reason to have a cardinal. He wanted this. That's the way he wanted it. Well, this is the first problem that these men get to know each other. What are your ideas? It takes a little bit of this.

Speaker 3: 1:00:32

However, I think a lot of those men from around the world, especially men from Africa, cardinals from Africa, cardinals from Asia, some from Latin America, but you've got to be careful with Latin America, because you've got the theology of liberation, which is Marxism, going on heavy there. But you've got good men there, but they're not men that shout, they're quiet. Some of them are very strong, but they're quiet. They keep their opinions to themselves. I think that most of them I pray that most of them have the intelligence and the integrity to see that something has got to be done, a-s-a-p. It's got to be done now. It's got to be done. We cannot continue like this. I think they know that and I'm praying they do. I'm praying they do Can't do anything other than that. What else can be done?

Speaker 3: 1:01:35

And I wish I could tell you oh, don't worry, lads, this guy's in Don't know, yeah, don't know.

Speaker 1: 1:01:45

But we haven't been surprised in 2,000 years.

Speaker 2: 1:01:49

That's how we'll have to all give off right. We'll just have to. Well, the God of surprises we've heard much about for the past 12 years, so this.

Speaker 3: 1:01:59

This may be. This may be one time when he's right.

Speaker 2: 1:02:03

Yeah, let's see. Let's honestly, let's just pray for the god of surprises. Father murray, thank you so much for your time. This was, uh it's. I always love hearing from the uh, older guys who've lived through a lot of this, because a lot of us started taking our faith seriously within the past 12 years. I mean mine. I was a JP2 Catholic growing up. I love Benedict. I mean, to go from those men to Francis was so devastating for me that I left the sacraments for a period of time and, by God's grace, I came back. And you know, for a period of time, and by God's grace, I came back. And you know this is, it's a scary time in the church for the faithful who really are pleading with God for a faithful man to get in that chair. So thank you so much for this.

Speaker 3: 1:02:47

I might be wrong, Anthony. I might be wrong, but I'll bet after you left, after you left the church for a while in this confusion, what brought you back was the notion that it's time for a good fight.

Speaker 2: 1:03:03

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:03:04

It was part of it. Well, congratulations, because you left and came back. I never left and we're in the fighting game. It's time to clear up things.

Speaker 2: 1:03:17

Fighting. We're in the fighting game. It's yeah, look, it's time to clear up things. There's even like, the eastern orthodox. I'm watching online and they're like you know, they have a lot to say about. Uh, francis, and I said, do you not see how the whole world looks to the pope of rome? The whole world looks at the pope. Nobody's worried about what bishop is in the eastern orthodox church. There's no.

Speaker 2: 1:03:33

The pope of rome controls the fate of the world, whether people know it or not. Where the church goes, so goes the world. The whole world is focused on this conclave right now because the Pope of Rome is the successor of Peter and it's the most important institution in the history of the world. So, you know, everybody can come up with their own reasons for why they're in this group or that group. You know, people go, set up a contest, they go. You guys are all crazy. The devil is after the church because it is the bride of Christ and this is the church he's making his assault on and making his attack on for a very specific reason. So we are in a battle for civilization right now.

Speaker 3: 1:04:24

So, yeah, we all need to hit our knees. The devil is about divide and conquer. The Holy Ghost is about unity. It's that simple. Don't fall by the wayside. Don't be divided. Stick to what is true. And the truth is Jesus Christ. Christ didn't say I know the truth, I can get you to the truth. He said I am the truth. There's no way to the Father except through me. Come be mine. That's what we've got to stick to.

Speaker 2: 1:04:50

All right, gentlemen, a distinct pleasure it has been.

Speaker 3: 1:04:53

Yes, absolutely, god love you and keep up the good work. Keep up the yes, thank you. God love you and keep up the good work.

Speaker 2: 1:04:57

Keep up the good work. Thank you very much. Okay, Rob, take us out, brother. Thank you.