Memories of the Revolution

What happens when three distinct papal visions collide with the legacy of Vatican II? This riveting conversation explores how John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis each navigated the complex aftermath of the Council while shaped by their unique historical contexts.

Most Catholics don't realize that both John Paul II and Benedict XVI were formed during the chaos of World War II and Soviet occupation—a trauma that influenced their cautious approach to implementing Vatican II. When John Paul II needed Communist permission just to attend the Council as a young bishop, it revealed the high stakes of Church politics in that era. These experiences created leaders who operated very differently than Francis, who represents a post-conciliar generation with its own vision.

The discussion delves into sensitive territory that mainstream Catholic media often avoids: how personnel choices determined policy outcomes, how the sexual abuse crisis undermined trust in Church leadership, and why social media has transformed Catholic discourse. We explore why traditional liturgy appeals to younger Catholics despite restrictions, and how the upcoming conclave might determine whether the Church continues Francis's trajectory or returns to earlier interpretations.

Most powerfully, the conversation acknowledges the painful reality that many faithful Catholics experienced crises of faith during Francis's papacy due to perceived doctrinal ambiguity—a perspective rarely voiced in polite Catholic circles. By understanding these complex dynamics, we gain insight into the divided state of contemporary Catholicism and what might lie ahead after Francis.

Whether you're a traditional Catholic, a Vatican II enthusiast, or simply curious about Church politics, this conversation offers perspectives you won't hear in typical Catholic media. Join us for an honest, thoughtful exploration of how the past shapes our present and future Church.

Chapters

• 0:00 Finding Our Opening: Late Start Struggles
• 18:24 Vatican II and Formative Years Discussion
• 35:58 JP2, Benedict XVI, and Their World
• 54:16 The Dark Side of Traditionalism
• 1:12:35 Media's Presentation of Pope Francis
• 1:32:11 The Nice Lords and Catholic Media
• 1:48:23 Conclave Predictions and Church Politics

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

Sancte, sancte, amare morti decadas nos.

Speaker 2: 0:31

We were late because we were scrambling to find an opening video. Guys and we could not find an opening video. I cannot believe how difficult it is to do several shows in a day. The amount of content anthony put out of this was his full-time job is with. Oh I, I don't even are you are you are you tuckered out anything?

Speaker 2: 0:55

I I started I was. My first show was with, uh, joe mclean at 7 30 this morning. That was fun and he does. He does radio for his first hour and then his second hour is just kind of like this, where you just free ball and you know, just shooting the crap. But the the the radio portion was interesting because you will be talking and then you hear the music kick on because they have to go to commercial break. So you have to kind of wrap it quick enough so that joe has time to wrap it before the commercial break. So it was. It was a little distracting, like you're in the middle of a sentence, you hear the music and you got to stop talking so that joe has time to wrap it before the commercial break. So it was. It was a little distracting, like you're in the middle of a sentence, you hear the music and you gotta stop talking so that joe can wrap it imagine that anthony finds stopping talking to be difficult.

Speaker 2: 1:33

yeah well, you know it was a, it was a fun day, and then and then trying to um, not repeat the same things over and over, because you know there are some people that I mean maniacs, like uh grover, watched every single show I did today, so it's hard to not repeat the same thing. So, right right off the bat, his first comment was how do you think he's going to use the god writing straight with crooked lines again? But it's, I mean, I don't know you got to get it to the same points over and over, over and over again. God bless you. But, kale, yesterday I watched your video you did with Paul Van. Oh, you know what, rob, let's do the Recusant ad, because I'll forget that and I didn't do a single one today.

Speaker 2: 2:16

You didn't do a single one today, not a single Recusant ad.

Speaker 1: 2:19

Well, this one's up to you.

Speaker 2: 2:23

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Speaker 1: 2:45

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Speaker 2: 2:51

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Speaker 1: 3:07

They send it like they send it wherever in the states, or yeah, cool there's. There's five states they can't send it to, one being utah.

Speaker 2: 3:13

I forget what other states there are mormons it's the mormons ah yeah, I'm terrible at ad reads.

Speaker 1: 3:19

Probably can't even sell coffee there, so you know what are you gonna do um so you felt they do sell magical underwear, though hey, hey, and in utah, I didn't know that.

Speaker 2: 3:32

Um so, keep rolling, keep rolling I don't even know what you guys are talking about.

Speaker 2: 3:37

I'm so tired, guys forgive me. Um, so I saw your stream with paul vanderclay yesterday and you guys were getting into some interesting stuff, like you were. You were talking about the council in a way where you were saying, even, even people in our day, we're basically formed in our like, our formative years are like from what, 16 to 25 or something like that, and you kind of go through your whole life with that worldview. It's. It's interesting. You said those ages. It's similar with music, right? You, you discover music between the ages of 16 to 25 and then for the rest of your life that's the music you listen to.

Speaker 1: 4:18

Like you kind of stop discovering new music so the guys, you have the worst taste of music I've ever met and I'm a little bit older than you.

Speaker 2: 4:25

I don't have to tell you you don't want to know what's going on.

Speaker 2: 4:28

When I was that age, so I was raised like as a wigger on long island. Bro, it's terrible, what's up? Uh, the virgin. Anthony abadi I'm so tired the chat. Anthony stein oh, boy for a. Yeah, anthony stein's got an insane schedule, though. He goes to sleep at like 6 pm though also. So, yeah, like. So the guys that go into the council, I guess, are formed during those years and they go in, and then the guys who put the council into action, like those guys, are still the guys we're dealing with today. Right, we're coming to the close of it. And then you were.

Speaker 2: 5:06

The main thing you were talking about was how, like, john Paul II and Benedict kind of came in to try to solidify this worldview of the council. But that really, francis, was the guy they were hoping for after the council. Well, insofar as you know, you know the weird sort of way, I think Francis sort of has council envy, right, because he doesn't, he's not really part of it, both as a South American. Also, he's a little bit younger than they are. And so you know, john Paul II of Benedict XVI, I mean, that was that was their, that was their Woodstock, right, I mean you kind of have to think of it that way that it's always that time and you know, and significantly of course I think that you know like I spent a lot of today, I wasn't planning on doing this, but just sort of sticking up for JP2 and B16. And look, anthony, you and I have talked a lot about this. You know I certainly went through my period of hero worship with those guys and I certainly have sort of sobered up on some level about the realities of their pontificates and even the realities of kind of what they were trying to do.

Speaker 2: 6:15

But I think it's important to remember, you know, that both of those guys were young boys in the middle of the chaos of World War II. Yeah, and that is you know. You know both in their respective way. You know Benedict, you know Ratzinger is a German and you know what he is, is Pole, and you know he grows up I want to say he was like nine or 10 when the Nazis roll into Krakow, and you know. And so as soon as they're done with the Nazis, then they've got the Soviets, and so I think that that's an underrated aspect of what they were trying to do, more so than just like a theological question? I was really. I didn't. I never knew this, but you said JP2 had to get permission from the communists to even attend the council. Yeah, right, so, so you know, this is an important point.

Speaker 2: 7:09

You know, I was realizing today too that I think for a lot of people, you know, let's say I don't know, maybe. Well, let me ask you, boys, this like when, how old were you when the Berlin wall fell? Was it 91? 89. 89. I was eight. Yeah, right, so, okay, so, so, like, that's like, that's like.

Speaker 2: 7:35

I think it's just important for everybody to remember, to remember that the iron curtain was not like an idea, it was not a meme, it was not like a, it was like a real thing, right, so if you were on the wrong side of the curtain, like you didn't, you know, you couldn't just like.

Speaker 2: 7:47

You know you and I can get in the car right now and I can come see you in New York and we can drive up and see Rob in Minnesota, and you know, all is good.

Speaker 2: 7:55

You know, if you are living in a communist country, like the answer, the first answer is no, and number two, if you're part of the church, which is an enemy outfit, you know for the commies, you know you're being followed, you know you're being tapped, you know you're being monitored at all times and so when you get called to Rome they sort of have to let you go, but you have to ask permission to go right. And so this you know the famous story of, you know the famous I think it's Vincente I forget the guy's name and I'm terrible with Polish but you know, the great archbishop, basically, was not allowed to go to the Second Vatican Council. They let the young Wojtyla go. So I think that's just part of the sort of the craziness that we we see. It's just an important part to remember that you know again, so so, so think about John Paul the second is named, you know, is elevated to Pope in 78, you know, you're still. What is that? You know? 12 years away from the iron curtain falling.

Speaker 2: 9:04

Yeah, you know a lot of that crazy stuff in the 80s is like you know, you got to remember there was the first world, which was the free west, the second world, which is the communist east and all the various satellites, and the third world is basically the, the, the proxy place where the first and the second world, the first and second world powers are fighting it out.

Speaker 1: 9:26

Yeah, I mean we spent the whole decade of the eighties fighting a proxy war with Russia and Iran and Iraq.

Speaker 2: 9:32

That's right. That's right. You know, and and look at everywhere, right, I mean Vietnam. Now, that was clear. That was another proxy war. You know all the stuff that was going down in South America, cuba, all of the CIA shenanigans down in South America. So it's like I just think it's very easy for all of us to forget what the world was like in the post-conciliar clown world.

Speaker 1: 9:56

I mean JP II was traveling while he was just a bishop, a colonel. He was traveling to Hungary to clandestinely consecrate bishops that's right without permission that's right, you know, and and so.

Speaker 2: 10:11

So, again, I I'm not here to to you, nobody needs me to come in like whatever, you know, white knight, white knight for jp2 and b16, but I do think it's important for, like, especially those of us who are trad or trad adjacent. I just think it's an important thing to remember that the world in 1976 and 86, and you know, is much different than the world in 96, 06, you know, and 16. Heard this, though, it made me think, like part of me want I it's obviously just like inject, like whatever, just a a feeling I have, but it seems like maybe jp2 was like a cia, like not that they planted him, but like they pushed for him, right because he's, he's behind the iron curtain and they're about to get into this cold war, or they're in the Cold War already. I mean, it really is JP2 and Reagan who bring down communism for what we see as communism.

Speaker 2: 11:14

I'm not thinking about the ideology, going around covertly the way we do now, but what we saw as communism at the time. It's Reagan and too that work in tandem to bring it down. Yeah, it's worth looking at when, when, when he's elevated to the papacy in 78, he makes a trip to seven in 79, I believe, to Poland to support the solidarity movement and he had been denied the year before. And then, once he's Pope, he gets, he goes, he basically like throws the middle finger up to the commies.

Speaker 1: 11:46

It's really, it's really impressive and the solidarity movement was funded by the cia like millions and millions of dollars.

Speaker 2: 11:52

Yeah yeah, there's video of john paul ii meeting gorbachev and gorbachev was like shaking. Yeah, he's like. I mean john paul, the second before he gets sick is a, is a masculine powerful man, man, now he's a man, yeah he's also probably involved in jjp2 getting shot, so that could be a reason yeah, yeah for sure 100, 100.

Speaker 2: 12:18

So so like when when you are. Because you heard my conversation with um mark lambert and and Michael Hichborn this morning and I was surprised because me and Mark kind of I look with fondness upon JP2 and Benedict, right Like I come up in the 90s and early 2000s. My mom is a charismatic. She goes to Metrogory, she loves Mother Teresa, john Paul II is, you know, anytime anybody brings him up. You hear the phrase the man's a living saint. I said this twice today but I just have to repeat it. Like you heard that phrase all the time the man's a living saint.

Speaker 2: 12:55

So to hear Hichborn be from our era, like Hichborn, I think, is in between me and you. I think you were born in what 1971. 73. 73, right. Like Hitchborn, I think is in between me and you. I think you were born in what Ninety one, seventy three, seventy three, right, so you're nine years older than me. I think Hitchborn's right between us. Like he's probably like seventy five, seventy six. But his mom was like a based Catholic when he was growing up. So, yeah, my guess is his mom probably read the Wanderer and so there was a microscopic trad sort of holdout movement. That was the Remnant and there was one other, the Wanderer. The Remnant and the Wanderer were sort of these two kind of outposts for the trads then. But you know, it's yes, paul, I'm no, no, it's good, you know, but that stuff is like pretty microscopic. It's like super French Remember, there's no internet. They literally it's like these little flyers would come out once a month. I mean, it was pretty, pretty small, small type thing, right. So so there was no real trad movement as such. I think it's important for people to remember that too. As such, I think it's important for people to remember that too.

Speaker 2: 14:04

Obviously, you've got Lefebvre and you know he's doing his thing, but I think that that dynamic is also really, really touchy. You know, you think about what those guys went through, right, like the early trads and even the ones that, like the early FSSP guys who break apart from the sspx after, after um, lefebvre consecrates the bishop. So now you have the schism within the sspx, because the fssp wants to stay faithful to rome and stuff. These guys are having latin masses in their basement. Yeah, there's nobody right.

Speaker 2: 14:39

And then all of a sudden, like you, fast forward to today, like those guys that have been in it for that long have to be like oh, this is like a trad boom, everything's amazing and all this stuff, like we see it as this tyranny of francis. But those guys kind of thought everything's been a tyranny since the council, so it's. It's definitely a different perspective. Those guys have but to to see hitchborn. Uh, talking about the personnel choices of jp2, and and Benedict, you texted me earlier, you were like I don't know, this kind of got to me a little, not that you were annoyed with Hichborn.

Speaker 2: 15:12

You were just seeing those guys in that light, where the personnel choices they were making, you were saying you think they didn't recognize the personnel as policy. Yeah right, saying you. You just think they didn't recognize the personnel's policy, yeah right. So my thesis, pull it apart however you want, but my thesis is that the thing that that that francis understood better than either of his predecessors is basically that personnel's policy. Right, and you know the, the sort of the, the age-old sort of methodologies that use. Basically those decisions were basically funneled up from the various dioceses, like up to the. What was Vigano? What was his role in America? Annunzio.

Speaker 1: 15:52

Annunzio right.

Speaker 2: 15:53

So you would filter that up to the Annunzio. That was all controlled by basically the one, two, three guys who ran the conferences, right, and you would put up those names and you know it's basically going to be a rubber. It's. It's basically a rubber stamp thing, unless there's some kind of smoking gun. And so you know, when you are an executive at the level of a Pope in an organization the size of the church, you know the number one. There's just nothing like it, just in terms of size and scope. And so just think about how much you have to outsource to um, to your underlings, right, I mean, there's just, it's just a yeah, that's true, it's an impossible amount, right?

Speaker 2: 16:32

so, and again, think too, like, if you're benedict, what do you care about? Like you're a theologian, you know you, everybody, everybody gravitates to their natural right, you know so. So bened Benedict is a theologian, you know. Jb2 is a performer, like, first and foremost and I don't mean that in any kind of shade, right, I don't mean that in any kind of shade but I mean his role is he's the guy that you could stick up in front of a mic or a podium or a stage and he just electrifies the crowd, like that's what he?

Speaker 2: 17:00

was. He's always been that. That guy happens to also be a pretty smart dude, of course, which is why he and Ratzinger got along so well. But you know, you gravitate to the thing. You, you, you, you spend your attention on the thing that you're good at and you think is necessary.

Speaker 2: 17:26

And sadly for us, right especially all of us now who have grown up in the age of the sexual abuse crisis you know that was a colossal misjudgment, to say the least. Right, I mean, it's awful, awful stuff, and so I am offering no kind of. You know, I'm not trying, I'm not excuse making for what happened under those two guys, but I'm also. But I also think that they were very naive when it came to just how powerful. You know, you might think of it like the deep state. You know the way that we think about. You know when you know when Trump wins in 16, he's as surprised as everybody, right? And so when he rolls in there in January of 17, like the deep state is a completely, you know, um, activated, uh to to work against him, and I think that that's a similar thing that happens.

Speaker 1: 18:03

I mean, neither of them were really obviously like you're saying. They weren't administrators.

Speaker 2: 18:07

Right and remember, neither of them are from Rome. I mean, I know Ratzinger has the reputation, but he only got called to Rome. I want to see he got called to Rome in like 81, right after a few years of John Paul's papacy. He's like a professor in Tübingen or wherever in Germany.

Speaker 1: 18:25

Neither were really members of the Curia right. They were outsiders. They didn't know how the insiders ran things, so I think they were completely just overwhelmed.

Speaker 2: 18:37

Right, and I would just add one more thing to somebody like John Paul II, more so than Benedict, one of the ways in which the commies operated against the church is that they would regularly sort of cook up compromise against bishops and priests, right. So a kind of a classic way you create a dossier against a priest is you say you've got pictures, or maybe you get them. You know, maybe you, you know the sort of the whole spy game thing is a real thing. And so John Paul II is kind of pre. He's accustomed to sort of dismissing that as kind of commie games, right. Which, of course, if you're a predator you're like sweet, I can play this up and down and sideways.

Speaker 2: 19:23

So somebody like Maciel, I think, played the Pope like nobody's business because he knew all of his buttons, he knew all the games he could play that. So you pretend like you're kind of traditional and you pretend like, oh, we're going to serve you, holy Father, and so he's predisposed to distrusting all of the things that turned out to be true. I think trads are unaware of the dangers of the dark, traditionalist right, like the trad priest who wears the trappings of a trad and gets away with some of the most vile things. I mean, you go back to. The most famous case in recent memory was oh, the dude up here in Providence. Yeah, he was in the Mass of the Ages documentary.

Speaker 1: 20:06

James Jackson Jackson. That's it.

Speaker 2: 20:08

James Jackson the vile things he was doing, right. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:11

And I would say, like that, that was part of my awakening, you know. So, when I read myself back into the church, you know, around the age of 19, let's say so, we're talking about 1992, thereabouts. You know my sort of low-res take on, it is like, look, if you wear a cassock and you say the rosary and you offer a reverent mass, that means you're good. Right, because I like your theology, for obvious reasons, and therefore you're one of the good guys. Right, and all these liberal priests who are pushing for liberalizations of, you know, of sexual issues and female ordinationals, so all of them were civvies all the time. Right, the Jesuits. And so in my head it was like, if you were like a priest, you didn't want to be called father or a nun who didn't wear a habit. You were a bad guy because your theology was off. And look that oftentimes track, just to be fair, because your theology was off. And look that oftentimes track, just to be fair, todd, yeah, Wait what was that no?

Speaker 2: 21:07

Todd, todd, todd just oh, todd Trad.

Speaker 3: 21:12

James was a run-down James a.

Speaker 2: 21:13

Nigerian Trad on Twitter he's black. That's funny. That's funny. He derailed you. I'm sorry. No, no, no, it's okay, but I remember there was a very pivotal. I had an experience. Remember there was a very pivotal.

Speaker 2: 21:26

I had an experience basically we'll call it roughly in my early 20s of a very, you know, orthodox priest. You know, wore the cassock, like, did the whole thing, and it turns out he was like had a thing for handsome altar boys, didn't do anything, as far as I know, because I believe me. I searched and looked out but I was like, okay, well, wait a second. You know it was. It was the realization that you could actually use the trappings as a way of a kind of hiding in plain sight. Yeah, and then the people in your parish will will, if an accusation is made, they'll yeah, he's a good priest, he's not one of those other ones. It's great, it really it. You know, it's something that we do have to be aware of. That does definitely exist. I had a priest in my in one of the parishes when I grew up. He did the children's mass and he would get up there with puppets and right.

Speaker 1: 22:16

Everybody loved going to the children's yeah, but that's a totally different right there.

Speaker 2: 22:22

Yeah, but rob but rob, but rob like back in the day that was, I suppose, but as a kid I don't, I don't believe me, it's skeeved, it skeeves us out. But like back in the day, it was like, oh, like this is a priest who, like, cares about the kids yeah, oh, he really cares about him. Yeah, right, but a predator knows how to get to his victim well, right, because what comes?

Speaker 2: 22:40

down to, you know, because, remember, like for a predator, proteins, protein. So where do you go? You go to the protein sorts, right. So if you're, if you're into kids, you go to the. I mean, that's what you do, yeah. And look, I live and work at a school, right, and so it's always. It's something you always have to be on guard, you know, all the time, because you know those people who are so inclined are going to find a way.

Speaker 2: 23:03

We talked also about how because you're a little too young to remember John Paul's election, but your mother, like your mother, very vividly remembers the council, right? So I remember my mom repeating phrases like phrases that you hear, and my mom, even when I tried to get her to come to the Latin mass the first time, she said uh no, you don't understand the, the, the mass was in a. We couldn't even understand it back then. And and it was these catchphrases that you hear all the time and, like you, you would explain this to me you go, no, anthony, those are, those are spells. Yeah, you know. If any of you follow me on Twitter, you know I always carry on about spellcasting, and this is not just something in church terms, but in political terms and cultural terms. It's like you hear these little things repeated all the time and people repeating spells that they've been spellcast by Right. I mean again, I'm only sort of being cute about it. To be honest with you. Like, I do think that there's this weird kind of way in which it's psychological conditioning.

Speaker 2: 24:05

Yeah, that's right. That's right, you know, and so I remember to this day, anthony, you and I talked about this years ago, but I remember I used to love you know. There was that time when Tim and Taylor were doing their shows and they did two shows on Vatican II buzzwords. Oh my gosh. It was so good. It was so good.

Speaker 2: 24:28

Rob, I was telling Anthony. I remember I had my headphones on and I'm cutting the grass A couple times. I just had to stop because I was laughing my ass off so hard. What was some of them? It was like our faith community. Yes, they were like come celebrate with our faith community man. They had so many good ones.

Speaker 1: 24:47

Should I try pulling up that video real quick?

Speaker 2: 24:49

if you guys never saw that tnt show where they go through nova sordo buzzwords. It was so freaking good. They were just talking about, like the felt banners and the this, the silliness of what they did to the mass. You know, and it was but you. But you were saying like the, your mother, like they were ripe and ready for for that revolution. Right, yeah, right Cause, look, so my mom so my mom is a college freshman at Loyola in new Orleans. So you know she's a Catholic school girl goes to the Catholic college right down down the street, loyola in New Orleans company. That's a great one. And and you know, so the year before she goes to college, john F Kennedy becomes the president of the United States of America. And like that is such a big deal for American Catholics, as crazy as this is for us. Because we're like, yeah, but John F Kennedy was a dirt bag, right, I mean it was just, it was like an actual open question the first.

Speaker 4: 25:46

Catholic president, yeah, it's like, oh my gosh, the first Catholic president.

Speaker 2: 25:50

Because, remember, what he has to do in order to like make it okay for the rest of the country to vote for him, is that he has to basically say in Houston yeah, like I'm an American first, like you know. You know, because people would be like, well, you know, the Catholic's going to listen to the Pope first and there's all these sort of dual loyalties, kind of like the JQ, I mean. It's like it's very much kind of in that vein. So he gets elected and then, like the next year, the Pope, john XXIII calls for a council and so everybody's like, oh my gosh, we've got an American Catholic president, we're going to have everything's going to be modern and great, like this is going to be incredible, like the modern world's awesome, right, and I, it's such a big part. So they call the council.

Speaker 2: 26:32

So you know, and what always frustrates me about conversations about the council, the council, the council, right, is that you know, the theologians talk about a council and they talk about the documents, and we can have all kinds of fun and, I think, generative conversations about the documents, but none of that matters, right? Because I think what mattered for people like my mom, your mom, is like when they were kids, they went to this sort of this very old-fashioned Latin thing, stuffy Latin thing, and then all of a sudden the priest shows up and he's wearing like civvies and jeans and and he's looking at us and you know it, just it's. It's a all of us, of course, who, like the traditional Latin mass, look at that as like a cringe fest, but at the time it really is kind of like cutting edge. You know what one of the mistakes they made was? It was by doing what they did.

Speaker 2: 27:26

The revolution is frozen in time, absolutely Right. So it's frozen in that decade where all these changes come. So we're now I mean, how many years past? It's 50 years past at this point, right, it's like 1970.

Speaker 2: 27:44

So this is literally 35 years past. So for us, in 2025, you're hearing the same like corny music.

Speaker 1: 27:49

What kind of math was that? 50, 55 years?

Speaker 2: 27:51

I'm sorry, wow 55 years, I wasn't even thinking so. 55 years later, you're hearing that same music that is. I mean they talk about, you know, like a tradition of ashes and things like that. It's like you guys left this time capsule trapped in the 70s. It's just so alien to anybody coming up in the modern age and that's why there's this turn to tradition and something more timeless.

Speaker 2: 28:18

Yeah, right, and so you know so, when you were talking about, like Father Murray's, you know sort of take on this conclave, that we just need somebody to like kind of get back to these sort of things, you know we look at this and you just, you know you got to be kidding me, you got to be kidding me. Yeah, so so I mean my take, I mean I don't sort of throw this to you all. I mean we can get into the Paul VI to John, paul I and II to Benedict XVI to Francis, because I think it's these. You know it really is, ultimately it's a fight on over who owns Jesus, right, who owns the council. What was so surprising to me about a year into France's pontificate is that for years I had always told myself look, we're going to win, because we're going to win because all the priests are ours. We're going to win Again. I'm just telling you what it was like 13 years ago 13 years ago.

Speaker 2: 29:24

Yeah Right, we're going to win because all the new priests are conservative and the Vatican II crazies are, you know, or whatever.

Speaker 4: 29:34

They've been saying that since I was a kid. Oh, I know, no, that's a moment, but Anthony, that's a spell right.

Speaker 2: 29:39

So what was most surprising is that that element of the church actually wasn't dead, yeah Right, and all of a sudden they took everything. They took over everything. Well, you think about the JP2 Catholics. Right, like JP2 did, there was a JP2 effect. There was no Francis effect, but there was a JP2 effect. This man goes around the world all these world youth days.

Speaker 1: 30:00

He converted millions and a lot of those. How many millions more left? Well, my whole family apostatized on yes, right.

Speaker 2: 30:09

So but not just that, he. So all these young people come into the church. A lot of them become priests, but they go through their seminaries and they get brainwashed by the revolutionaries and then they become revolutionaries, yeah yeah, I think Rob's point is worth. I mean, that's the the thing that has frustrated me really, probably going all the way back into Benedict the 16th time, cause you know, I remember, like, looking around, and you know I graduated. Let's say, I graduated with a hundred guys. I went to an all boys Catholic school, you know, in Baton Rouge, and you know of the a hundred and a hundred guys that I graduated with, I don't know what I 10 of us, yeah, right, something like that. Now it's more information class.

Speaker 1: 30:52

I think there's which was like 20 people.

Speaker 2: 31:02

There's like two of us. Yeah, yeah, you know, and and so so now I do think it's prop. You know it's a complicated genealogy. You know there's there's a lot of, there's a lot of the a lot of stuff going on there. I think that I think, rob, especially in your age, you know, your, your cohort, the sexual abuse crisis, I think, really just decimated any kind of hope that that there was to be a jp2 effect.

Speaker 2: 31:21

that just that just got flushed down the toilet yeah, I mean, I was confirmed in 2004, 2005, so a few years after you know but this is this is actually a good point, because I see it with, like the, the george weigels and stuff, like these guys still think like it's the jp2 era where we're fighting communism and russia and stuff, and it's like they really were. They were because it was jp2 and reagan who bring down communism together. Like I think there's that, you can put that in there, yeah, margaret thatcher too. But there's this blend of politics and religion at that time where it's like, look, especially the older generation, like the, the boomers and the older Gen X guys, they conflate being Christian with being Republican. Like they think, well, I voted the right way, so I'm a Christian, you know. And there's this total like lack of any kind of formation in the faith whatsoever. It's just well, I voted for the right things. And I say just well, I voted for the right things. And I say the right things, I'm against the right things. But there's no actual deep faith life there where they're taking the Catholic faith seriously at least what it seems like to me and the people I'm exposed to. So yeah, now, so they. So now Francis, though he comes along after.

Speaker 2: 32:45

So John Paul the second and Benedict really did try to uh, interpret the count. I think. Actually Benedict was kind of like we're, we're beyond that, right you have. You have Pope Paul the sixth. He closes the council. You have John Paul the first last 30 days.

Speaker 2: 32:58

Then you get John Paul the second comes in and that's a 27 year pontificate like that's a very long pontificate and he is the. He is the pope of the council. He tries to solidify what like enacting the council, and he's there for so long. And then benedict comes along and ratzinger kind of says, all right, it's time to get away from the council. So he chooses the name benedict, because he kind of wants to stop talking about all this crazy stuff.

Speaker 2: 33:24

But he's the one that tried to, you know, give us the hermeneutic of continuity. It was John Paul II gave us like the new springtime and all that stuff. But Benedict really gave us the hermeneutic of continuity. He tried to make sense of the council with tradition. He tried to make it make sense. I don't know how it does, but he did try to make it make sense. But then Francis comes along and he throws that whole hermeneutic of continuity out and he's just like, nope, we're getting right back to the revolution that we. It was almost like a pause in the revolution for those two pontificates, and then it was right back to it.

Speaker 1: 33:59

Well, I I don't know if I would say it was a pause. I think jp2 it didn't pause the revolution. He, he, he calmed it down, slow it yeah, you know you still couldn't have lads and masses.

Speaker 1: 34:13

Yeah, you know, you had to go directly to rome if you wanted one and chances are you'd be denied. Um benedict, like you said. I think you're right. I think he tried. He realized we're gonna have to move past it at some point, so we have to somehow merge it in to the rest of of catholic tradition, catholic history, catholic life. So he does some more on pontificum. You know the Hermeneutic Continuity, the mutual enrichment right.

Speaker 2: 34:40

He's trying to show like oh, the two liturgies can enrich one another. The one thing.

Speaker 1: 34:45

I am thankful to Francis for is. Francis showed us that that was never going to work.

Speaker 2: 34:50

Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Now, before I get your thoughts on that, kel, I have to go back to something, because I forgot to say this. You were saying you think that Benedict and John Paul II were kind of ignorant to the personnel as policy kind of thing. Right, I think that Benedict man, the one thing I got from listening to the Benny Plennis like when you go back and you listen to dr um what was his name? Dr mazza?

Speaker 2: 35:24

Like he takes you through benedict's writings and like what benedict's thoughts were and he kind of had this idea of bifurcating the papacy and all these things like these were pre-thought things. It wasn't like he just decided one day to abd advocate. And I think that benedict saw him. I think he saw us as in apocalyptic times, like I really do think he saw himself as the pope, the bishop in white, in the vision of fatima. Now, he, that may not be true, but I do think he saw himself that way and I think part of him just kind of gave up trying to even fix the mess. I think he just kind of uh, like just accepted that where we are and he, he saw us as coming up on something apocalyptic.

Speaker 2: 36:09

It starts with that radio address because he read the third secret of Fatima. It starts with that radio address in the 1960s and then he starts the way he's talking. He was. There was a book called the Foolishness of God that came out and the author was anonymous, but he kind of goes through how Benedict was going back to a theologian from Augustine's time. I can't remember his name. Do you remember his name, rob?

Speaker 1: 36:37

Oh, yeah, yeah yeah, oh, tycho Tychonius name. Do you remember his name, rob?

Speaker 2: 36:41

so, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, tatsu like, not taiko tyconius or something, and tyconius had like these ideas about the at the end times, about, but whatever it was like, benedict was referencing tyconius throughout his writings and I'm fully convinced that benedict just resigned himself to say my authority ends at the door, I'm going to abdicate and just let them have the, let them have the church. It seemed like he, he, he felt very strongly we were in the end times. In my opinion, that's what I I take from the things he said. Yeah, I don't, I don't necessarily disagree with that. You know, I think he was a mystical guy, way more so than John Paul II was. You know, I think John Paul II looked at things as a kind of world stage type type thing, whereas I do think that Benedict was more mystical. I got to tell you I still do not understand the abdication. I, you know, I really don't. I don't understand it. Are you angry with him for it?

Speaker 2: 37:48

Yeah, yeah, I would say so yeah, for sure, you know, and and, and I especially because it gave us Francis. Now now to your point about Francis. I'm intrigued, I'm intrigued by your take insofar as Francis has sort of what the Marxists would say has accelerated the contradictions right, and I think that that's clear, right that you know there's no room for a kind of naive take anymore, because, but I would say that this is sort of a larger question about the nature and role of the pontiff. You know that that would then take us all the way back to Vatican one, you know, but but the the, the whole post-war era or the whole post conciliar era, strikes me, as I sort of think of that, think it as just incredibly naive right that they thought that they could sort of control this thing, and the folks, the modernizers and the liberals in the church, were always playing a step or two ahead of the kind of naive. Again, you know conservatives roughly, you know you could talk about it in terms of the Communio school and the Concilium school. Right, the Concilium folks were always way more politically savvy.

Speaker 2: 39:18

And you know I don't know if you caught this the other day, rob, but I was tweeting about the new Dutch catechism comes out like literally months after, in the early months of 1966. And I'm pretty sure that Paul VI finished promulgating the last documents of Vatican II in late 65. And so, like, not even like a year later, they come out with this catechism. And this catechism is bonkers. I mean it's bonkers and it's like all the kind of stuff that we would make fun of because we've seen versions of it. But like right after we, so you could see that those people in the council they were all you know that particular group of people were frustrated that the council didn't go far enough, that they, they, they, they lost, you know, the, the, they, they, they lost their nerve and they should have really sort of taken it.

Speaker 1: 40:14

So they just do it on their own.

Speaker 2: 40:15

Yeah, and and but. Then it becomes the sort of the playbook, right. And so it becomes the playbook for all the Jesuits universities and schools all around the world, right, and Skilob X is part of this, and I forget the other guy's name, but anyway, the point here is that so Rome is totally flat footed. Paul VI thought that he kind of had everything under control and he's no conservative, of course, but he was all about the council, that the council should stand alone, it should be its thing. We'll put out this new mass and that'll be kind of like done. That's what I'm talking about, derek, you know it'll be.

Speaker 2: 40:48

It was called the Noya Catechism. It became known as the Dutch Catechism, so you know. So Paul VI is like well, no, like we did the thing and so now just do the thing. And so the Dutch were like no, we're going to do you time, keep pressing it. Yeah, we're going to keep pressing, and that's the thing that becomes seeded. And so now the Overton window gets shifted so far in the progressive liberationist camp that Rome is constantly playing catch up and they refuse to put out a catechism until like 1989. 83? No, playing catch-up, and they refused to put out a catechism until like 1989. No, no it's, it's later than that. Harden had one which was but but. But I'm pretty sure it's 89 or 91, or 92, 91, I think you're yeah, so yeah we always talk about the 92 catechism right so that's so.

Speaker 2: 41:34

So think about it so, so that from 1965 there's no kind of like answer to what does it mean to be Catholic until? 1992. Ok, so that's the entirety of my life. I graduated high school in 91. Right, you know so. So my. So I was trying to say this again too. Like for my entire life, every religion teacher I ever had, certainly in high school, not one of them, liked John Paul II. All of them thought that he was hopelessly conservative trash, so crazy.

Speaker 3: 42:09

No, it's hilarious.

Speaker 2: 42:11

So it wasn't until I go to an alternative Great Books Catholic school, thomas More College, in the fall of 92, I heard a theology professor talk about John Paul the second in positive terms. Now, we liked him just because you know that's how our family was, but I didn't know. You know so. You know so. Every nun who taught, every priest who taught every full, you know theology religion teacher in high schools all around the country taught every full. You know theology religion teacher in high schools all around the country all hated john paul ii. Yeah, so look tyler's tyler's laughing at john paul ii being a.

Speaker 2: 42:46

The reason I wanted to have this conversation is because there's so many new people in the church and so many younger catholics like you guys don't know the era we come from, where Francis really was this. Look. Francis was to the church what Trump was to politics absolutely just he. Just like he's the mask drop moment. Right, trump comes out and the reaction to Trump everyone just loses it. And then, all of a sudden, like you saw, the the mayhem in the media to Francis on from the left is what happens on the. The mayhem in the media to francis on from the left is what happens on in the church just in the opposite direction. That's right. That's right. Yeah, like he is like truly loathed, like they hated that poll, like you know, and I remember when, when john paul ii dies are you all familiar with, like Sister Joan Chidester.

Speaker 3: 43:42

Okay.

Speaker 2: 43:42

So there were a couple of like 1980s, 90s, like Catholic journalist all-stars and they were all terrible. Right, Every newspaper and every diocese ran the same articles. They were opinion columns by Sister Joan Chidester and Father Richard McBride. Both of them are like hardcore lefties. They cannot stand the Pope. John Paul II thought he was hopelessly conservative and trad, and so, week after week after week, they are publishing. The Pope is terrible. He's slowing this down. What about the spirit of Vatican II?

Speaker 1: 44:15

So they're like the 90s. Austin Ivory.

Speaker 2: 44:18

Yes, oh yes, and remember no internet, right? No internet, none so there was no, there was no catholic alternative media again people are going to say the wanderer and the remnant which was read by like a hundred not they're not.

Speaker 2: 44:31

They're not being seen on that 100 000 people, right, whereas every diocese has a newspaper, that comes to your house once a week with a newspaper, and those guys are printed all the time. You had said you tweeted. The other day you said if, if there was social media, like if Twitter existed during the era of JP to like the nuns and the religious, they would have gone on a firestorm against John Paul II. Right, and remember that's another thing that that younger folks in the audience because I mean, think about this. I mean, if people in your audience are 25 years old, you know they were 13 when Francis got elected, 13. Ok, yeah, they've never not had the Internet, they've never not had some sort of alternative voices. Ok, so you know. I lost my train of thought, anthony, sorry.

Speaker 2: 45:19

With the, with the if they, if the nuns and religious had the internet, yeah, so so when, when john paul ii finally dies right, they are like finally, that son of a, that son of a bitch died, we're finally going to get to get to be back on track with vatican too, that is bulldog and elected and right, and so god's rottweiler, which is hilarious, right?

Speaker 2: 45:41

I mean like really no but just think, because they say that that francis well, bargolio was the runner-up in that conflict. Could you? We had 13 years of francis. Could you imagine 21 years of francis? Yeah, yeah, no, I know, I know think about that this is 2005.

Speaker 2: 46:00

Okay, so I'm going to do one more on you, anthony. Imagine if a Francis got elected in 78. Okay, wow, this is the kind of thing like everybody hates John Paul II, all the trans hate JP too. You know, they're going to talk about Assisi and they're going to talk about all the things. Right, I'm very, all those things. But imagine if, if, if paul vi had been followed up by francis dude, none of us would be catholic, yeah, none of us would be I think even francis getting in I mean benedict getting in was a mercy from god.

Speaker 2: 46:35

like I, because I know a lot of trash, think samorin pontificum was a disaster, but I think it exposed all of us to the TLM that's what I mean.

Speaker 2: 46:42

There was no TLM in any way. For me it would have been the schismatic. Sspx are the only ones that had it. But Samorin Pontificum comes out. All these priests are allowed to say it, and then when Francis comes, they still have that ability. So it really the TLM doesn't even explode after some more pontificum, it explodes after francis and it really explodes after 2020, before tradition comes out. So, like all of us that are going to our latin masses, like you owe that to benedict. I don't care what anybody says. Look, okay, I'm gonna. I gotta call somebody out in the comments here. Hieronymus benedict and jp2 are not liberals. They're not like this is that's not what liberal means. Like I know, everybody's going to prattle on about the nouveau theologie and all that sort of stuff. Like you need to understand you're dealing with. You're dealing with you know, read Scalabex.

Speaker 2: 47:35

Like read Kung, like read the other side yeah, but that's the Overton window shifting after the council so much like they would be seen as liberals to pious the 12th and pious the 10th. Like they would have been seen as liberals by those guys but I don't know if liberal is the right word.

Speaker 1: 47:54

Liberal is like it's a squishy word yeah, it's like a political philosophy based on individualism and I wouldn't say benedict or gb2 were individualist, but whether or not they were slightly modernist yeah, yeah, I know what you mean, rob, yeah, I know what you mean.

Speaker 2: 48:10

But, but modernist is also like, very specific, it's very flat, it's very materialistic. You know it's very um, you know it's like revelation is not a real thing. The scriptures were cobbled together by, like a couple of dudes in the back room, like you know. You know the higher criticism of the Germans, it's Protestantism, right, I mean, it's modernism and Protestantism, you know, and there's nothing Protestant about you know I cannot, you know you know me, I play well with others, but you, but there's nothing Protestant about Benedict. It's just not.

Speaker 2: 48:45

Yeah, no, I really think that Benedict saw himself as living through the apocalypse. I really think that's what it was. I think, even him stepping down I mean he even said he stepped down because he felt an interior call by god to do it. You know, it wasn't like he, just like he. Really, I think he was a deeply prayerful man. Of all the popes that came after the council, I think he's the only one that could be a saint, you know, I think I think john paul ii had some beautiful devotions, um, and he had a really deep devotion to our lady. But I think that, you know, under scrutiny. They probably wouldn't have canonized him if it wasn't for trying to canonize the council. I think benedict wanted to canonize him, like benedict saw him as a very holy man, but I think, you know, it was a very political kind of.

Speaker 1: 49:34

I do think there was personal holiness there oh yeah I think he was a terrible administrator and probably not a great pope, but I think there's personal holiness there.

Speaker 2: 49:44

How about this guys? How much of this gets under our skin? How much do we question the canonization?

Speaker 1: 49:55

because of Carlo Acuna. No, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 2: 50:00

Not going there. How much of this, how much of this gets dredged up because of what they did with Paul the six? Oh, yeah, for sure, cause I got to tell you like as a no, it was John. I tried really hard. I tried really hard to be a loyal son of the church, like I really do. Paul, the two things that broke me from like 2020 ish on where McCarrick and Paul the six getting canonized yeah, I, I don't. I still don't know how to square that, cause, I think it's just a load of shit. I just really do. It's not just that. And when, when John, paul the second, is canonized, Francis makes John the second, is canonized the uh.

Speaker 4: 50:45

Francis makes john the 23rd. At the same time, he doesn't even get his own canonization, john paul the second.

Speaker 2: 50:47

He's canonized along with john the 23rd as a political statement, which was which is horrific. It's like like it should have. I remember everybody being offended by that. It's like, why can't this man, you know, we just he. They wanted to call him john paul the great, you know. And then, years later you look back on it and you're like, oh, maybe he wasn't John Paul the Great but, like Rob said, he did have a lot of personal holiness and he had some beautiful devotions and you know, he was always talking about Our Lady, always talking about giving your life to Christ he had an M on his crest.

Speaker 2: 51:15

That's the first time any pope has ever done that, so he's putting. I mean he, I got another precedent breaker, so you, maybe he's a modernist after all, I don't know, but but you know he's, yeah, his marion devotion was real, very real man.

Speaker 1: 51:31

So okay, so not as strong as francis's, though, according the modern media, that's right.

Speaker 2: 51:36

That's right. No, I swear. I don't know if.

Speaker 1: 51:43

I don't know, if I don't know if I make it, if they I don't know they're not gonna count it, but let's, let's play. Let's play the view clip no let's get it a good way to like finish out the YouTube portion and then we're gonna go. We need more recusers and sellers. Good thing it's 20% off this week.

Speaker 2: 52:03

We're going to finish up with the view clip and we'll talk about the mainstream media's presentation of Francis, and then we're going to go on to locals and we're going to talk about the Daniel O'Connor-Matt Fradd situation and we're going to talk about some of the public Catholics. I call them the nice lords the nice lords you guys don't want to miss that portion of the show, so let's hear the view.

Speaker 5: 52:35

I think of this Pope he was the most Jesus like oh my god, you know when you read of Jesus and what his word was and how he walked. This is what I think of a person who lives their life this way. He also said at one point in 2013 regarding gay priests if someone is gay and he searches for the lord and has goodwill, who am I to judge? And these messages resonated with me, not as a catholic, but just a christian the love thy, love all thy neighbor.

Speaker 2: 53:02

Pause it real quick because, like they leave out the context of the fact that this was a priest who made vows of celibacy and he was like it's not like he was. Francis is even saying because, oh man, if a man is seeking the Lord, you know, like that. I remember that so vividly. That was the first thing where everybody was like what is this, what is he doing? It was that then it was the breeding with rabbits, that it was the no no, no, hold on.

Speaker 1: 53:30

Clarify breeding like rabbits, not breeding with rabbits that's true, that's right. Yeah, remember, like the catholics breeding like rabbits.

Speaker 2: 53:37

It was the, then it was um, oh my gosh man, it was a long 12 years dude do you think holy?

Speaker 1: 53:43

do you think he's talking about the viewer us?

Speaker 5: 53:49

all right, finish the clip out, let's see okay and he lived that through his words and his actions I don't know if I love all my neighbors, though.

Speaker 3: 53:58

I love that you said that because, as a Catholic, you know my whole life and all of you know this. I've spoken to many of you about it. I've struggled because of so many of the church, churches, the doctrines, especially when in regards to the LGBTQ plus community, in terms of the sex scandals, I've struggled with being a Catholic.

Speaker 1: 54:25

Did she just admit the sex scandals were because of the gays?

Speaker 2: 54:28

I think she divided the two. Listen to what she says here. This is crazy.

Speaker 3: 54:33

But this Pope changed things for me and Whoopi and I have spoken about that and I remember I was having this discussion with you, Joy, about how I feel like there's this crisis of empathy in this country that unless it happens to you, you can't feel the empathy of somebody else I wanted to get that, because you can even get rid of it.

Speaker 2: 54:52

We don't have to listen to the whole monotonous thing, but just that whole. You know, I've struggled with being Catholic because of all the doctrines of the church against the LGBTQ plus. But then Francis came along. Did you go back to mass, sonny? No, no.

Speaker 2: 55:06

All of this. They all talk like this Like well, francis changed Catholicism. Did any of you decide to go back to the sacraments because of this change? Not one of you. So I got a question for you guys and I think we can fit this in before we go over to locals how much do you think if it turns out that the crowds just don't show up in Rome?

Speaker 1: 55:31

how much do you think which?

Speaker 2: 55:31

it looks like they're not. I know, again, I'm being tentative. I still think there's going to be a ton of people at the funeral, I guess, or whatever. But how much of an effect do you think that has upon the conclave? Like here's?

Speaker 2: 55:49

Here's what I think is different about this conclave, and for those of you who watched the earlier shows, I apologize, you're going to hear my thing again. This conclave, and when I saw burke and um sarah going together, like I think there was this because they went through JP2 and Benedict, I think that last conclave, where Francis is elected, I think there was like like a I don't know what's the right word, not naivete, but there was almost like a whatever. Like they went into that not thinking of the dangers that could be of a pope, because they just assumed they would get another pope who taught the doctrine, even if he did things a little bit differently. They just assumed, you know, I think they all believe infallibility meant whatever was elected, you know, we would still have the clear teaching doctrine where this time, after francis, I think, all of those conservative cardinals going in, I think they're going to be way more on their guard.

Speaker 1: 56:42

And I think what kale brought up earlier about social media is a large cause of that last conclave. The social media wasn't like it is now. Now they've seen the damage that unclear, unofficial teaching can do through social media.

Speaker 2: 56:56

So I think they're going to be all be on their guard a lot more. I think there's going to. I think there're going to be all be on their guard a lot more. I think there's gonna. I think there's gonna be chaos in this conclave. Actually, I don't think they're gonna be able to just slip another revolutionary and I think there's going to be some real fighting going on, because even dolan well, you know, yeah, he's pretty squishy and he was like you know, we want somebody with francis's heart, but we want somebody that's gonna speak a

Speaker 3: 57:17

little clearly on doctrine.

Speaker 2: 57:19

Like we don't we don't need this mayhem anymore.

Speaker 1: 57:21

You know, I think every single cardinal probably is francis fatigue most of the cardinals are functionaries, largely right, and they don't like having their lives made difficult. Yeah, and they've. They've seen francis has made their lives difficult and if they see a board turnoff for the funeral or just a lack of anticipation or excitement, they, I think they'll realize another francis will just make their lives even more difficult than it's already made yeah, I, I and I also think that what you know there's a lot of there's been a lot of noise about Francis has packed the conclave.

Speaker 2: 58:02

That's always true, right? We forget that Francis came out of a conclave completely packed by JP to a B-16 guy, so it's like it means nothing. But the significant thing that he has done is that the College of Cardinals is significantly not Roman-centric. It really is like from the far-flung corners of the world and he's never called them in to be a body they haven't met since 2015 exactly he's frozen that.

Speaker 2: 58:28

He froze them out of the synod of synodality, he, you know so in a weird sort of way, oh yeah, yeah, remember, anthony, a synod is supposed to be amongst bishops and cardinals, the, the. The novelty is that he's made the synod about with, with like folks like us lol, not us, but you know, right, right, so so I, it's going to be they. So they don't have a kind of an identity as a group of people like they did for the prior two and three and all the other. They all knew each other each other right, they would go all the time.

Speaker 2: 59:02

Now not so much. So I think that. I think that, therefore, there are a little bit more tuned into what's going on at the local level and I think, like to your point, rob, they don't want the mess. Like you know, hagen Leo is great for pope francis because he can get all the good press in the new york times, but if you're just like a branch manager out in friggin, you know des moines, you know wherever des moines, and it's like you don't want this crap, I gotta be honest, I don't know what insane cardinal would want the position of pope. Like you have to be a total mental case to actually want that position, because it's especially in today's world with social media, where everything is just a feeding frenzy in the media, that somebody said um, uh, anthony thinks it's going to be like the movie conclave. Let me tell you something. The movie conclave gives you a good insight. It like the ridiculous ending aside, because there is a ridiculous ending where the yeah, it's just something.

Speaker 2: 1:00:00

But the movie itself actually does give you like an insight into the political dynamic of the fighting going on behind the scenes and the this guy, this candidate, he's going to keep the revolution going and the other guys are trad and he wants this stuff ended there's no one more naive than a catholic who thinks the holy spirit chooses the pope. Oh my gosh it's the most earthly event in history. It's just yeah. I heard someone say it's a pious belief.

Speaker 1: 1:00:29

You know they were saying that to be charitable and it's like it's an idiotic belief yeah, no, there's, there's nothing hope you're going on.

Speaker 2: 1:00:36

It is yes scheming, I mean I, I you think back to how many of the the popes bought their office, probably back in in the, you know, during the pornography and stuff, and yet it was still in better hands.

Speaker 1: 1:00:50

Oh yeah, well, we all know who's anthony's favorite.

Speaker 2: 1:00:54

Well, look, I, I said this earlier.

Speaker 1: 1:00:57

I said uh, you know the church has a long, you know the church has a long history.

Speaker 2: 1:01:00

It's Pope Cope. The church has a long history of, you know, a fornicator and a liar. I was, but a heretic. I never was, you know, and that was a lot of the popes in the Middle Ages.

Speaker 1: 1:01:14

They all had concubines and you know bastards.

Speaker 2: 1:01:16

but they weren't heretics and remember in the 18th and 19th century like the pope really was a branch manager like he really was.

Speaker 1: 1:01:22

It was the roman, he was symbolic. He was symbolic. I mean, everything's traveling by, by letter, right? So, yeah, you are managing. Like you know, there's the whole saying in most, most middle medieval catholics didn't know who the pope was. Right, I don't think that's entirely true, but you're right, they had to, their bishops had to. But you're right, their bishops managed their bishops, the bishops managed the church, right.

Speaker 2: 1:01:47

I think it's going to be an exciting few weeks, guys. This is the event.

Speaker 1: 1:01:52

At least when we had popes that had bastards, we knew they weren't gay.

Speaker 2: 1:01:57

Yeah, there's a truth there. There's a truth there. Oh man, all right, so we we're gonna jump over to the other side. I want to. I want to talk a little bit of about the nice lords, all right let's do it, we're gonna go to the other side, guys. If you guys are not local subscribers, go subscribe to us. If you're not, uh, uh, subscribe to kale's youtube channel, kale had. I'm telling you guys, if you enjoyed this conversation, go check Kale's conversation with Paul VanderKley yesterday.

Speaker 2: 1:02:23

If I could just say about that conversation it you know Paul's audience is largely a mixed group of Christians, so like a lot of what I was saying is giving people just kind of background on Speaking to a Protestant audience largely trying to give them insights into. Catholicism. It's a good audience. Paul's a great conversational partner. Check it out, it's excellent. It's on my YouTube site. You guys had a oh man, I don't want to start this conversation, but you guys, we'll do it on the other side because it'll just drag into a half-hour thing.

Speaker 1: 1:02:53

Okay, are we ready to meet?

Speaker 2: 1:02:54

Yeah, let's go to the other side. Switch it over.

Speaker 1: 1:02:57

Give me a minute here.

Speaker 2: 1:02:59

You guys are keeping me up way past my bedtime.

Speaker 3: 1:03:03

This is awesome.

Speaker 2: 1:03:05

Quick, we do have the funniest audience, man, they're all very quick.

Speaker 1: 1:03:10

When you said the council was 35 years ago, someone goes that was definitely some Long Island wigger.

Speaker 2: 1:03:16

I was just not thinking, I obviously know it was 55 years. I saw 70 in 2000 and I saw 30, and then I was just not thinking. I obviously know it was 55 years. I saw 70 in 2000, and I saw 30, and then I was going to add the 25, and I just said 35.

Speaker 1: 1:03:26

I don't know.

Speaker 2: 1:03:28

Yeah, so you know what's wild I was thinking. You know, like in 1985, the council was 20 years ago right, think about what's 20 years ago today.

Speaker 1: 1:03:43

Yeah, don't make me do that, it john paul ii.

Speaker 2: 1:03:44

No, I'm gonna second die, right? I mean, like that's like you know. So like 85 is like the council, like just happened. Yeah, you know, it's just so that the whole it really doesn't depend on your age, right, like for the guys that are 25, 20 years ago it's a lot, but for us who've been around a little bit longer, it's like 20 years ago. Man, this is my 20-year wedding anniversary this July.

Speaker 2: 1:04:05

I was getting ready to graduate high school, that's right, I just think that kind of stuff it's easy to forget. It's just easy to forget. What would it have been like I really do mean this, and you know, what would it have been like? Like, I really do mean this Like what would it have been like to have spent the ages of 10, 10 years old to like 30 under Nazi occupation and then commie occupation? Yeah, like that's just and not just that. Like we we've really like I don't know where you fall on this, but the you know, with the father maudsley controversy.

Speaker 2: 1:04:49

Like I had katherine bennett on today. She had a conversation with father maudsley and they caught so much backlash like crazy, bad jihad watch wrote something on them and I was like all these people went after now catherine was really just going in to hear him out. You know she didn't agree with anything he said, but the. So father mosley's position is that there, after world war ii and after the holocaust, all of these, uh well, his position is the holocaust is nonsense, but besides that, his position is the Holocaust is nonsense. But besides that, his position is that the narrative that comes from that, that the Jews then lobby the church to change her liturgy, and things like that. Now whether he's right about that or not. After World War II, there is this narrative that comes forth from the Holocaust and there is incredible pressure on the church because they're framing it. Look, even the idea that we call it a Holocaust.

Speaker 1: 1:05:41

And that narrative really does start about. And I'm not saying they're connected, I'm just saying the timeframe.

Speaker 2: 1:05:47

that narrative about the Holocaust starts in the 60s, that's when you get the number six million and things like that.

Speaker 1: 1:05:53

The diary of Anne Frank, you get. The term Holocaust starts to be used in the 60s.

Speaker 2: 1:05:58

The term Holocaust starts to be used in the 60s. Well, calling it the Holocaust really is an insane thing, because what a Holocaust offering is is a burnt offering to God, and Jesus Christ is the final. Holocaust offering, so it's like to call it the Holocaust. What they're implying is that Christians sacrificed Jews as a collective, as a burnt offering to God right, and that narrative comes into this timeframe of the council and you're getting men who were under Nazi occupation then become you guys are so sad, that's so good.

Speaker 2: 1:06:42

So you get these men like you had Benedict was like forced to join the Hitler Youth and you had John Paul II was under Nazi-occupied Poland and like to think that there is no pressure for the church to change things through. That narrative is kind of naive in my opinion. You know, and and I do see it as if you see the story as a typological story you, if the Pharisees are the ones who crucify Christ in the first century, I think they are going to play a significant role in the end as well, like it's just how I see it. So, you know, regardless of Holocaust narrative or anything like that, I think that the, the, the enmity between the older brother and the younger brother. It's like the Jews have the covenant and then it goes to the Gentiles. They have gone through 2000 years of being told your God chose us and there's this natural enmity that just is built up between them. It's just the way it is.

Speaker 2: 1:07:47

Yeah, I agree, we were just bridged off somewhere. I forgot where we were talking about. We were talking about the conclave. You said you wanted to start something, but you said, no, let's hold it to the other side, we're never going to get to that.

Speaker 2: 1:08:06

Oh, we're going to do the nice lords yeah you're a teacher, I don't even want to get you into this conversation, never mind.

Speaker 1: 1:08:13

I don't even want to get you into this conversation.

Speaker 2: 1:08:15

Let's steer clear of this. I'm not doing that to you. So the nice Lords and the way they have handled the way they have handled this, the passing of Pope Francis Now I put out a tweet the other day that I didn't say anybody specific, but it's like there's this thing that happens where people will speak one way behind the scenes and they'll, they'll, they'll be somebody behind the scenes, but then when they go on their show, they put forward a front and they, uh, they will do like performative piety to their audience in order to not lose the normies, things like that, and I think that takes a toll on somebody. Like it's almost as if you're living a double life. I wasn't speaking of anybody specific in that, it's just I see the way some of the people are coming out and talking about Francis and I know they don't actually think these things. I know they don't. Who are they performing for? What does it accomplish for them?

Speaker 1: 1:09:21

I don't know. Is it their audience? Yeah, but is that effective to the?

Speaker 2: 1:09:26

audience.

Speaker 1: 1:09:27

It's probably more honestly. They're bigger donors.

Speaker 2: 1:09:30

That's interesting. Yeah, that's probably true, so look.

Speaker 1: 1:09:35

Those bigger donors tend to donate to very similar other sorts of channels that are all included in the Nice Lords too.

Speaker 2: 1:09:45

Right, yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1: 1:09:46

Catholic Inc. That's what we're talking about, right.

Speaker 2: 1:09:49

So the large donors to Catholic Inc. And you see they're forming their new apologists and you see they're bringing up their new influencers. You see, it's like Lila Rose, Voice of Reason. These are the people they're forming and bringing up.

Speaker 3: 1:10:01

None of them ever say a negative catholic inc.

Speaker 2: 1:10:04

Who, who is this? Can we say this here is like oh, is this?

Speaker 1: 1:10:07

a I don't know. No, like we money I genuinely don't know money money?

Speaker 2: 1:10:11

catholic? We don't know the names.

Speaker 2: 1:10:13

We know the, the people they donate to, but we don't know the actual donors well, I'll say this, though it is a strange thing going on with that philos catholic project, but I don't want to bring that up with you again, but there is. It does seem like there's an influence there. But, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's this performative piety and like look well, it makes me angry, though, like you know, so I'm. I listen to the clip and you know, for me the cop has always been, always been let's say let's say this specific clip we're talking about.

Speaker 3: 1:10:46

We're talking about the Matt. Fradd clip right.

Speaker 2: 1:10:48

So you know. So I tweeted about it and I'm like nobody talks this way, like this is just like, this is garbage and no-transcript when your father abuses you. Yeah, the question that I'm I'm supposed to ask, as the son, is not what have I done to make daddy mad? It's just not. That's that. That's bullshit. Yeah, it's like. No, like I didn't pick this fight. It was a strange thing. It was a weird self flagellation he did on on his show the other day where, look, like the Pope had just passed the map rapids a video out and I wanted to watch it and I'm like, okay, what's Matt going to say? And he and he comes on and he's like you know I, you know people, people might say some things about Francis, and fair enough, and like he plays this devil's advocate.

Speaker 1: 1:11:50

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:11:51

And then and then he goes. But you know, really, I really want to know what have I done to damage the body of Christ? And before this there's a video that he does, like a couple of weeks ago, where he talks about how Catholics should never speak about other Catholics. And it's like what? Yeah, he like puts his video clip out where he's like you know, catholics, if you want to go to hell, you should never speak. You know you're going to go to hell if you speak about other Catholics. And it's like, dude, we're all putting stuff out in the public, like we're, we're open criticism if we put stuff out in the public. But then the Pope just passed and we just went through a very insane 12 year pontificate and to come out, and I'm dude, I just I don't. He's never said it to me, he's never. Like I've never had a conversation with him about francis, but I know matt frad's opinion of francis.

Speaker 2: 1:12:41

Like he's not happy about it, yeah no, he's dropped enough hints about it and he said enough publicly to know that you know when he comes out and he's like let's pray for the pope. Okay, he's just talking like I've never seen anybody talk before. It was just this bizarre thing. And it's like and then and then the daniel o'connor situation comes up and daniel o'connor puts out a video today and it was like matt frad had, um uh uh, jimmy aiken on and paul fig pin on and they're both talking about aliens and all this stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:13:12

So his whole audience kind of pushes him to have daniel o'connor on to give the the. You know the opposite, you know the other side of that argument. And that responds to daniel that like he sets it up to have him on and then he eventually tells him I have been in, I have been advised by people around me not to have you on. So right away, my, I'm saying I guarantee those same people that advised him not to have daniel on advised him not to have us on, because I know matt likes us like he did at least I don't know, probably doesn't now because of all the things I've said about him but yeah, I tweeted something right before the show too oh dear sorry, I don't, I've just given up, like, even like they're a different thing than us.

Speaker 2: 1:13:56

I want to drop another bomb, so can I share my screen real quick?

Speaker 3: 1:13:59

Yeah, of course.

Speaker 2: 1:14:02

This is what I want out of you guys. Here we go, share, share this. All right.

Speaker 1: 1:14:11

Oh, so true, Nick. Nick says, Mad frat is forever damaged by net ministries so true, I had to go to those once a month okay, what oh yeah heck is this what the heck is this hope francis is dead?

Speaker 2: 1:14:28

a traditionalist response by timothy flan there's you didn't see this go jack tweeted this in order to avoid the sin of pride, we must imagine that pope francis died a christian death.

Speaker 1: 1:14:38

And well it's so if you didn't see steve's tweet, steve tweeted something along the line scale of like it's been what four years, four years is it too soon to say what the hell is happening? Can you bring up? Steve's been four years. Is it too soon to say what?

Speaker 2: 1:14:52

the hell is happening. Can you bring up Steve's tweet? I didn't read it. I want to see it. Oh jeez, I'll bring it up. I'll find it. Yeah, bring Skojak's tweet up. Look, you guys can say whatever you want about Skojak. I know people are pretty awful to him. The thing is the man lost his faith on the.

Speaker 2: 1:15:09

Francis. Y'all know I'm like boys with Steve. He and I are friends Legit. We talk to each other every day. I get it. I get why people hate him. I do, I don't. He is as a pugilist, he eats us up. His piece yesterday on Francis was as raw as I've ever read. I mean, it's like it's his Moby Dick. So that's all he wrote. He just said what the hell is going on with the publication. I found it.

Speaker 2: 1:15:46

Because, the thing is, you can say what you want about Skowjeck. When he ran 1 Peter 5, it was the go-to trad publication. He created the whole lane man he really did. First of all, he's a phenomenal writer.

Speaker 2: 1:16:00

I don't care what, anybody says he is just a phenomenal writer. He had something like a year or two ago where he just kind of delved back into it and I remember reading it and being like damn, I miss steve's go jack man. Like I miss him. Yeah, like he was such a good voice but he lost his faith under francis. And it's understandable like I, I people that say like don't leave, don't leave jesus for judas and stuff. It's like man, that's a. That's a ruthless way to look at it, because I've lost my faith before I left the sacraments under Francis. I went through that period and by God's grace, I came back.

Speaker 2: 1:16:39

But it is not a good place to be when you lose your faith. It is an awful place to be. You have an existential crisis and you don't know if your purpose in being is. It is such a scary place to be and anybody that like gloats in that, like you guys, you don't know what it's like to be there. I'm glad that you're solid in your faith and nothing can shake it. But what we endured under Francis made a lot of people lose out. A lot of people went to orthodoxy. A lot of people left the faith totally because of him. So y'all want to talk. A lot of people went to orthodoxy, a lot of people left the faith totally because of him. So you want, y'all want, to talk. Uh, I don't, I don't want to talk so so what do you think?

Speaker 2: 1:17:21

So you know, like you two, I've been scouring, like what are people saying, what are people saying, and you know you've got, you know you've got some of the trad types who are, like, you know, it's going to get worse before it gets better. I know you sort of talked a little bit about that.

Speaker 2: 1:17:36

And Sarah is not. You know, if Cardinal Sarai, you know the long shot of long shots, even if he gets in, he's going to make it worse. And you know, and I don't know any of that, I don't know what will happen. But the way that I see it is like you know, you could sort of have full blown reactionary right, a kind of an attempt to sort of split the difference and have a kind of conservative. You know ish. You know JP to be 16 kind of vain sort of person, or a 2.0, or Francis 2.0. So is that basically what y'all think, um?

Speaker 1: 1:18:13

I don't think there is a trad option.

Speaker 2: 1:18:14

So yeah, so it's. It's one of those three. It's either a jp, jp3, a b17 or a francis the second. I don't think there's even a viable option for leo the 13th. I don't yeah, I don't either yeah I don't either yeah, I don't either.

Speaker 1: 1:18:29

So I mean I think there is a potential for someone along the lines of Pius XII, because I mean Pius XII definitely more trad than everything we've had since Right. Right, I mean he did make some changes to the liturgy and you know it was, you know. So, no, he's not like a full pious the I just sent the clip to you.

Speaker 2: 1:18:55

I want, I want to play.

Speaker 1: 1:18:56

That has to do with exactly what we're talking about, um I think most likely, like it is probably a benedict, the 17th sort of conservative, but hopefully a better administrator. I think the, the options that would be along those lines, would probably be better administrators, like like, uh what, urdo and um, the dutch guy, what's his name?

Speaker 2: 1:19:17

edgic, egic, something like that, I, I, I.

Speaker 1: 1:19:20

It's ike, I think technically yeah, um, you want me to pull up that video now?

Speaker 2: 1:19:24

yeah just pull up that. It's only 17 second clip. I just yeah, this is this. This seems a bit naive to me oh yeah, yeah, this is a good one. This is a good one. This is a good one, yeah, because I do like Father John Murray, but it just kind of seems naive to me, and I think this is something that me and Cale actually talked about. It's like there's something about guys that grew up in this era.

Speaker 4: 1:19:47

What needs to be done in the church, and it will basically be to reaffirm what John Paul II and Benedict were doing defend the faith and try to appeal to modern man to see the value and the goodness of what Christianity teaches.

Speaker 2: 1:20:03

Do you think it'll be so, like to me, if you get that guy, I don't think it fixes anything, right, okay? So so then let's, let's do a quick speed run of those two options, right, because I think most of us think if it is the guy that murray is sort of setting up there a kind of b17, let's say what happens. Right, you know, scale that out over the next five years. Or if you get a francis to, you know to scale that one out in the next five years. Okay, so you get a you get a francis.

Speaker 2: 1:20:36

The second in my opinion. What happens is the the.

Speaker 1: 1:20:40

The mayhem inside the church continues my one question would be does the francis the second continue tc or does he at least undo tc? Because I think you you could get a francis the second that knows right away.

Speaker 2: 1:20:55

He doesn't want to deal with angry, so let let the trance play in their little playground and we're going to fast forward with senate and synodality stuff. Yeah, I think, I think, I think you, I need to get a francis. The second, you have to continue TC, because I think they've rightfully recognized the problem.

Speaker 1: 1:21:15

I actually do Right, but think of someone like Tagle. He seems like someone who Bro likes to be liked. Yeah, exactly, and he knows, if he lifts TC, he doesn't have to deal with trads for at least a couple of years, right, a couple of years maybe. He's infinitely better than francis, and listen to me you can say what you want about tc.

Speaker 2: 1:21:36

We all hated it, they know it's a problem. The track communities because what you're getting is you're just letting yeah, but especially if you're gonna let it go back to some more pontificum rules where any priest can can say it like you will kill the novus ordo church rob well, you don't even have to.

Speaker 2: 1:21:54

You won't even have to, right? Because, because, remember, the novus ordo church is betressed and financed by the boomers and we're within the 10-year die-off. Yeah, span, yeah, so you're gonna. So, just by, like a war of attrition, you're gonna have trad communities who have kids and you have novus ordo communities who don't have kids. You know, that's actually, that's like the new biological option, I suppose on some level. Listen, I'm telling you these guys saw, okay, look, every revolution starts with like two percent of the population.

Speaker 2: 1:22:31

Right, it's like, yeah, all right, so try someone who told you that I know well, I learned from my co-host it's like put note to rob. The rob's taught me a lot on this show for sure, um, but yeah, that's how that goes right and they see. They see that that's where the youth is drawn to and that if they tc was as much.

Speaker 1: 1:22:53

Yeah, but has tc caused it to grow or decline?

Speaker 2: 1:22:57

it's well. The thing is it's they, they, they. They never understand, yeah, the, their actions right like, so they, they, they do put the, the brakes on it. Look, it caused it to shrink, in that it's no longer at the diocesan parish, but right, it's caused more attention. It's a, it's a strisand effect is what it is, you know, and it's more people are looking for it now and they're going where they can.

Speaker 2: 1:23:18

I would say strike me down, darth vader, and I'll become back more powerful. I mean, that's like the okay, so. So then let's do a speed run in which francis ii uh, continues tc. Okay, so francis ii continues tc. Francis II continues TC. Okay, so Francis II continues TC.

Speaker 2: 1:23:32

You continue to have this fracturing inside the church. You're going to have Catholics fighting amongst Catholics, all that kind of stuff, and it's going to just further decimate the body of Christ itself. I really do think the church is just going to continue to fracture and it's just going to be a tribal thing. You're going to get like we're the rarity where we'll talk to you and we'll also talk to a Taylor Marshall.

Speaker 2: 1:23:59

These people are all breaking off into groups and that's the one thing that broke my heart the most under Francis is that people of goodwill that believe the Catholic faith, who might not have access to a Latin mass, they still believe the Catholic faith. Who might not have access to a Latin mass, like you know, like there's, they still believe the Catholic faith. Like there's gotta be some way to have conversations with everybody. So that'll continue in here. If you get a Benedict the 17th, I think the world turns on the church. I think the church has gotten a pass these past 12 years because of Francis, because the world sensed francis was taking the church in a more progressive way, allowing this, allowing that.

Speaker 1: 1:24:35

But the world is that I should say that sort of world, the, the liberal, uh world order is dying, just like the novus ordo is done. Now, that usually means that they're actually more dangerous, right, right, like if they're cornered and they're dying. But I would think persecution from the world will just eventually die off, just like persecution from the.

Speaker 2: 1:25:03

Well, I think it's going to get violent?

Speaker 1: 1:25:04

Oh, I do too. I'm not saying that, I'm just saying like yeah, I think. I think that only lasts so long.

Speaker 2: 1:25:11

Well, of course, but that but I it will happen is if that persecution does come on the church, even if it's not physical, even if it's not like real persecution, even even the attacking from the media, things like that, like cause, if you've got a Benedict the 17th and they start approaching him like calling them God's Rottweiler, things like that, and the media turns on on the new Pope, what it'll do is it will cause the church to unite, like the lady will then unite to defend the Pope, and it will build up the body from inside and we'll get it. I think all of us always thought especially on the Benedict and JP too that the world is going to hate us and we're willing to accept persecution from without like that. That was like the. You know, that was the fate we were all willing to accept. It was when it turned from inside on us that we were all like, yeah, what is this?

Speaker 1: 1:25:57

it would? That's what I mean, that that's what hurt, right more, more than more than the world.

Speaker 2: 1:26:03

Hating us is our own hierarchy, our father's hating us. Yeah, yeah, that's been the most depressing thing, honestly, finding out how few of the freaking bishops believe the catholic faith has been. This has been the most devastating thing, right, because I didn't think that you know, I can, I can officially say that that's not where I was 13 years ago.

Speaker 3: 1:26:31

You know, and I wasn't a terribly naive person either.

Speaker 2: 1:26:34

You know what I mean. It's like Look, they all knew how to pay lip service. They knew if they just went to a pro-life, a march for life, oh he's one of the good guys.

Speaker 2: 1:26:44

Right, they knew how to wear the mask. Even Dolan. Before Francis, dolan was seen as like A stalwart defender of life. When he came to New York, new York was thrilled. They were so happy we got Dolan. Dolan was the bishop from Wisconsin who was the great defender of life. Then he comes to New York and Francis comes in and the next thing, you know he's letting the gays march in the St Paddy's Day Parade and you know he actually had Talking about that gay football player. He's like thing. You know he's letting the gays march in the St Paddy's Day parade and you know, oh, he's. You know he actually had talking about that gay football player. He's like oh, you know, oh that's right yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:27:18

You know, I say best to you. Whatever he said to him, you know, and it's just all of these guys. Dolan what I realized is just wants to keep his gig, like he'll go wherever the wind is blowing. He just wants to keep his gig. He's a functionary, not just a functionary. He loves being archbishop of new york and going to the cocktail parties with andrew cuomo when he was the governor and with kathy hokal now, like he loves being at the al smith dinner. That's, it's his thing. That's what he wants to do. He wants to be the archbishop of new york. I think nobody is happier that Francis died than Timothy Dolan. That man threw a fricking party, clipping that for a short Cardinal, archbishop Timothy Dolan.

Speaker 1: 1:28:01

He's like. He's like a Roman funeral. Imagine the food there, Not just that. Well, I think he's taking Osempic, that man.

Speaker 2: 1:28:11

he gets a reprieve because he submitted his resignation this year. Yeah, he did. He submitted his resignation this year and, with Francis passing, that's a pretty long process of getting a new pope and that pope getting settled and getting a reprieve from Carlo Rob is thrilled, rob is thrilled, rob is thrilled.

Speaker 2: 1:28:34

We don't have to count on that. This is a few years Francis came in. He didn't start doing those crazy personnel changes. On day one. He had to get his bearing and he nominated his cardinal, his nine-man cardinal, his fellowship of the ring, his privy council. He had hiship of the Ring, whatever the hell, it was His.

Speaker 1: 1:28:51

Privy Council.

Speaker 2: 1:28:52

yeah, he had his Fellowship of the Ring before he killed off freaking the Australian Cardinal Pell. Before he had Pell whacked. Man, you think about some of the craziness we've watched over the last couple of years. Man, I think for sure that Pell was whacked. He went into that surgery. It was a freaking run-of-the-mill surgery.

Speaker 1: 1:29:13

They had him whoops, sorry, we should do. We should do a video on uh vatican, uh assassinations throughout history I bet, I bet you'd be, we would be shocked, I bet.

Speaker 2: 1:29:26

Look, you're talking about men who I mean like what the hell happened with John Paul? I I mean like come on come on, man, there's no way that guy, just like he, died in his sleep gives him the dossier he says he's gonna act on it. Suddenly dies JP you think that was the mob, though you think that was the mob clipped him because well, maybe the mob did the deed, but it was.

Speaker 1: 1:29:48

It was definitely done at the behest of who was. Who was paul the sixth secretary of state? That's who.

Speaker 2: 1:29:57

That's who did it man you think about like look, because we all have this idea that they all believe in god. They don't believe in god, most of them like most of them are just politicians and yeah, they're athe, they're the Sanhedrin, yeah, they're the freaking Sanhedrin.

Speaker 2: 1:30:14

These guys, I'm telling you, it's like the men that got elevated. What really happened in the church after the council is there were several gay men in the hierarchy and they went around and they elevated the gay priests who did sexual favors for them. So it became a gay club. Like it just became a gay club. And it's like gay priests who did sexual favors for them, so they it became a gay club. Like it just became a gay club. It's like and if you perform sexual favors, I will elevate you too, will elevate you too. And it was only the gays that got elevated to positions of authority. Before you know it, the whole hierarchy is gay and the ones that aren't gay know to shut their mouths. That's, that's really what happened, because I think there was a time in the church where the church was a sanctuary for somebody who had same sex attraction. Like it was like all right, I'm not attracted to women, but at least I could go be a priest. And it wasn't that they were.

Speaker 1: 1:30:56

I mean I forget the name of the book and the priest who wrote it, but he says 50% of the people in seminary between you know up to 1970 were gay 50%.

Speaker 2: 1:31:07

Yeah, yeah, 50, yeah yeah, now it's like 80 probably. Yeah, the um, the uh, the um I was talking to see a site was the one. Who? Who talked about that? Um, oh shit, I lost my train of thought. Oh well, it'll come back.

Speaker 2: 1:31:22

Yeah, he, he went in and he did all those interviews, right, like he went and he actually interviewed all the priests and it was like anonymous. So he actually got a pretty good understanding of how bad it was. But yeah, I think there was a probably a time where it was like you were a gay man, you weren't attracted to women. Everybody would be asking you, why aren't you married, son, why aren't you married? So they would go and go to the priesthood and they'd have a lavish lifestyle and they didn't have to ask. Anybody asked them the question why aren't you married? They probably had a boyfriend on the side occasionally. But but the wild thing is, you know, even like somebody who is considered at during his lifetime as being kind of like a stalwart for old-fashioned catholicism, like cardinal spellman of new york city, like that dude who says he was as as queen, he was like bad, in fact. I mean rod rod told me that his nickname amongst amongst the like the people who know was Bubbles, like he was, I mean like bad.

Speaker 1: 1:32:14

I mean we call Farrell and McElroy McCarrick's nephews, but I mean McCarrick was Spellman's underling, that's right.

Speaker 2: 1:32:24

That's right.

Speaker 1: 1:32:25

And they say Spellman was one of the four cardinals. That, what's her name? Belladad, belladad. Four cardinals that? Um? What's her name? Um, bella dodd, bella dodd. So there was four cardinals that were, were in place from the the kremlin as communists, and it's rumored that spellman was one of those four yeah, and so played the role, though, but, interesting, played the role as the kind of again the sort of traditional conservative guy.

Speaker 2: 1:32:53

Again a perfect cover story, right, I mean, yeah, yeah, it's like, um, I think what francis tried to do, though, by elevating mackleroy, by elevating soupage, by making like, I think it was actually an attempt at a hostile takeover of the church by godless men like these were men that weren't even pretending they had the catholic faith.

Speaker 1: 1:33:13

These are men who are openly in infiltration, if you will. It was way more than infiltration.

Speaker 2: 1:33:18

It was just, that's it we're taking like they made. They made their move under francis and I do kind of think his death was a little bit sudden, like I know he got sick this year. I know he got sick this year. Look at rob before this year francis like you. You look, four months ago francis was out doing like he was out and about, like nothing happened.

Speaker 1: 1:33:38

Then, when he got sick, it was the man was hospitalized, like four months ago too he's been hospitalized like three times in the last 12 months yeah he's? He's had three, what, uh, one and a half long, since he was a teenager yeah, he still kicked till 88.

Speaker 2: 1:33:55

Man, I'll take that deal, I'll sign that contract right now.

Speaker 1: 1:33:58

Uh, you might not want to sign the contract he signed, man, that's true.

Speaker 2: 1:34:01

I do not want to officially, I do not you know I do not want to sign that contract, keep me poor and humble lord, keep me, oh, my goodness, man, yeah, oh man, it is a. It is an interesting time to be all right, so so, so so the pope's buried at the end of this week, right, he's tomorrow or something like that saturday saturday okay so saturday, and then the conclave has to start, I think, on tuesday, two weeks from yesterday, two weeks from Tuesday, right?

Speaker 2: 1:34:33

So so we're going to, so they're going to go into a conclave, so we're going to get all those like free speeches. I'm actually kind of looking forward to that. So wait there's some wait a minute. Ok, so the funeral Saturday, and then it's not this Tuesday, it's the following Tuesday, following Tuesday, right, so what happens in that day?

Speaker 1: 1:34:52

right? So what happens? In that it has to be at least what? Nine days after the funeral or something like that. Yeah, no more than 15 or no, right right, death.

Speaker 2: 1:34:56

The conclave has to start 15 days, no later than 15 days, after the pope's death, right, right, so typically, the, the funeral, right, that this, so they push that. So yeah, so you're going to get all those like opening speeches because there's a whole public version of things and then they go in, right. So, if memory serves, because I remember when, when, when JP two died, you know, that's when Benedict, then Ratzinger offers that sort of the, the, the, the dictatorship of relativism speech.

Speaker 3: 1:35:27

Oh, is that when he gave it?

Speaker 2: 1:35:29

Yeah, yeah. So so that's when you're going to get some of these cool. You know leaks, but there it's fine because it's not. It's not under the the lock and it's not under the seal. Yeah, seal, that's it. Yeah, thank you. So so, yeah, no, it's gonna be, I don't know, it's gonna be okay, so wait, they give those speeches to the other cardinals before they're in conclave, right?

Speaker 2: 1:35:49

oh, some of them, right. So there's these sort of opening ones, like, I believe, because, if memory serves, benedict was the Carmelengo for JP2, right, so in that role, so then Feral, I guess, would be the one who great you know one of the nephews.

Speaker 3: 1:36:08

It would actually be Tuco though as the CDF.

Speaker 2: 1:36:13

But again, I don't know't know if again so, then my question is I don't know if benedict was performing that as the cdf guy, or was he performing that as the camera um no, the uh, cardinal eduardo martinez samalo was the carmelingo.

Speaker 1: 1:36:25

Okay, at the end of jp2 okay, okay, interesting, hey, interesting.

Speaker 2: 1:36:30

Did you notice how under Francis, francis always wore the white and everything was kind of simple with vestments, but the second he died. You even see. Cardinal.

Speaker 2: 1:36:41

Farrell decked out in his regalia. Do you think we'll have a bit of a return? Because I think deep down those guys are all gay and they like getting all dressed up. Well no, listen. Listen, though, I remember when I started, when I was in rome for a semester, those boys they love, like when you got to be a monsignor, you got the nice, like you know, the tubing. They were all into that stuff. So and even the straight guys honestly like they like yeah, well, you see. You see what trash is the ladies exactly it's your signifier.

Speaker 2: 1:37:09

Yeah, they, they, they like the reality of it. You know, and that's the thing you are talking about Princes of the church Like you're, the Francis really took that, that dignity away in some ways. You know where these positions? I think that's another reason you might have these guys saying no, no, no, we want to bring the dignity of the church back, like these guys really do. Like being the guest of honor, you know, you talk about France, jesus talking to the Pharisees. It's like, oh well, I must have the highest seat of honor. These men are Pharisees, dude.

Speaker 1: 1:37:39

Yeah, I mean they're princes of the church and princes generally like to be treated as princes, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:37:47

But it's it's. Look, the thing is, it's one thing if you're being a prince of the church to represent Jesus Christ. It's another thing if you're being a prince of the church because you yourself want to be the one who is adored, right? So I really see these men as Pharisees and I think they love having the seat of honor when they go to places. And I mean, you really have to think of it like that.

Speaker 1: 1:38:07

I think that's probably been true of the College of Cardinals since its inception.

Speaker 3: 1:38:10

Oh, of course.

Speaker 1: 1:38:11

The difference being that even then they probably still did believe in God, whereas now they just don't.

Speaker 2: 1:38:19

But, yeah, yeah, the crop of men that have been elevated man. Some of them are very dark, that's all I'm saying. I'm not saying all of them, but some of them are very dark Whoa, whoa, whoa, not cool. We don't see color, anthony. Yeah, what have I done it, anthony? What have I done to create?

Speaker 3: 1:38:39

the divisions and exacerbate this.

Speaker 2: 1:38:40

I mean to create the divisions in the church. It's. It's like come on, matt, knock it off.

Speaker 3: 1:38:46

It's not you. That's all I care about. It's like, it's not you. Not you, be yourself like who about it's not?

Speaker 2: 1:38:50

you Be yourself who talks like that. Knock it off, man, just be you, get on. I don't know you guys are in Catholic media space here. I'm sorry, but why does that stuff work? I think there's a segment of Catholics.

Speaker 1: 1:39:10

Is it to spell?

Speaker 2: 1:39:11

It is maybe.

Speaker 1: 1:39:12

There's a segment of catholic spell.

Speaker 2: 1:39:13

It is maybe, but I think there's a there's a segment of catholics who, like you know, they think it's uncharitable, like we're gonna get blowback.

Speaker 1: 1:39:19

If it wasn't locals, we would get blowback for this right you know what trads wear tweed, right, that's true expected of you yeah, here's the thing.

Speaker 2: 1:39:31

If you okay, if you met me outside of this. Yeah, you're meeting me, like this is right.

Speaker 4: 1:39:37

I'm not presenting some fake version of myself it's totally right and I, if I that would not surprise me at all.

Speaker 2: 1:39:43

Yeah, like, if I say something, I I'm, I mean it, like I'm not. I'm not putting on an act for anybody. And the guys that do that, I think they're trying to fake piety. I think that's what it is. They want people to think they're holy, whereas I said to Rob from the first day we started this, I don't want to present myself as some role model of holiness.

Speaker 1: 1:40:08

It's why we don't begin or end in prayer.

Speaker 2: 1:40:13

Yes, because my mom actually used to say she's's like, why don't you start your show with a prayer? It's like because I think it would kind of just be disingenuous, like I don't want to, because I don't pray enough in my daily life.

Speaker 1: 1:40:22

So why should? I do it on this show like come on.

Speaker 2: 1:40:26

It would be fake. It really would be. Yeah, yeah that's, that's right, it's just it's ingenuous, so it's like I want to just come on and be myself. So this way here, people see, see my mistakes, so that, like they see my fault, so that like I'm not ever held to a standard I am not capable of reaching. You know, because I'll tell you, the guys who put that air on, they're the snipiest behind the scenes man for real they're the, they're the.

Speaker 2: 1:40:50

They're the little terrors and monsters behind the scenes. And I'm not talking about Matt here, I'm just saying in general, like the people that put that air of holiness on, I bet you they're the ones that are most difficult behind the scenes. How hard do you think, how hard is it to you? Know, like, keep a sense of personal authenticity. You know when you're in this, you know when you're doing this kind of thing, like how is it, how easy is it to sort of start acting? Well, the thing is, authenticity is not a virtue, right, good point, it's not.

Speaker 1: 1:41:27

So it's not like, like being authentic is a virtue in itself there are times, in an attempt to be authentic, you could be inauthentic yeah, kayla, you talk about this, the carefully curated profilicity, right?

Speaker 2: 1:41:43

like? Yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a real thing, right? So, even like my twitter profile, like I'm putting out a digital version of myself that I want people to see and I have a little bit of fun with it and I goof around with it but there is every.

Speaker 2: 1:41:57

You know every one of us are doing that. We. We have a. We carefully curate what we want the public to see in our digital avatar. So even this is a digital avatar. So I've shared too much on this show personally. You know, like in my personal life, I've gone too far, so maybe that I'll back off on sure?

Speaker 2: 1:42:18

well, I think that's I think that's I remember reading. Uh, you all know who mary harrington is. She's a british. Yeah, she talks about that like like, she calls it digital modesty. You know's basically like I don't talk about my kids, I don't talk about my husband, I don't share anything unless I have had a conversation with them first. It's just sort of like these sort of firewalls that she Well, the thing is Okay.

Speaker 1: 1:42:45

So I stopped sharing photos of my family on Twitter because of that, especially when you have a sock puppet account that you switch then to a different person and then someone goes through your past tweets from four years ago and sees pictures of you and your wife and your kids, the uh.

Speaker 2: 1:43:02

The reason, though, is because, as you grow as a channel, people will use your, your um, whatever your vulnerabilities are, against you. Yeah Right, so I will still tell personal stories on this side. When we go to locals, I figure the people that are here pay to see us Like they care about us. They're not just some random that's going to see me on YouTube, so the people that see us behind this paywall I will share.

Speaker 2: 1:43:31

So when in locals never post pics of your kids, ever just post your home address, like anthony so you, I'll share things on this side that I've found um, help me with my kids or help me in my marriage. So I'll tell personal stories, maybe how my dad raised me and something like I picked up from when my dad raised me, things like that. But I won't. I won't do that publicly anymore because I I've seen what people do to guys who do that you share too much. That's a vulnerability and then people will use that thing that you care about against you. Yeah, yeah, I just, I see I see guys really getting into their character, you know, like almost like a professional wrestler gets into their character, you know, and it's sort of like doubles and triples down on the Gordon does that a little bit. Yes, okay, full disclosure. Yes, that's a. You know, that must be a real temptation because the shtick works on some level, right. So I'm thinking of Fred, right, and Matt's got a good thing going. I mean, it's his livelihood, he makes his living doing it, and I never begrudge a man I really don't begrudge a man doing that Like. However, you make it work, you know. But I always just sort of wonder how, like, how do you hold on to the thread? It's a look.

Speaker 2: 1:44:58

So me and rob have talked about this like being we talk about it all the time. Yeah, being a professional catholic is very dangerous man. Yeah, it's like super dangerous. So, like what, what rob I do? We actually had a like a really long talk about. Do we really want the channel to grow like that? You know, and the thing is now, I think I'm pretty comfortable with the size of our audience right now. Um, because you get audience capture pretty damn quick, yeah. And next thing, you know, you see people in the comments complaining about something and you're like Ooh, I better not touch that topic again, again, because that's going to upset people. But where we are now, it's like the people that, like us, have been watching us for a little while. We might get some new viewers here and there, but they know what to expect when they get here. But to be a professional Catholic, once you become dependent on that income, now you're looking for advertisers that don't want you to say the thing that you really think.

Speaker 2: 1:45:50

That's what I think is happening with all of these Catholic commentators Like they're. They're not allowed to say what they really believe because they're beholden to money. Yeah, you know, and I see this, and again, I know this is a sort of a private thing, you know that we got here, but I see this with, just, you know, I work at a Catholic school, you know, and, and I'm just, I'm just a teacher now. I used to be an administrator, and so when I was an administrator, I had to be super careful about everything, Right, and so if you look at my Twitter feed, you know, you know, you know exactly when I stopped being an administrator cause I started saying things, I actually thought right, and you know, so I was. I was a lurker for a decade and a half, you know, before I started.

Speaker 2: 1:46:31

Yeah you still have to be careful, though, because if something goes viral, like if something goes, and you never know what's going to go viral. And. I've gotten. I mean, during the summer, Baseball hat Right. The baseball hat.

Speaker 3: 1:46:45

Baseball hat to millions bro.

Speaker 2: 1:46:47

Yeah, yeah, crazy. Yeah, yeah, crazy. No, but like I, I during the whole floyd stuff, the summer of floyd and the whole craziness during covid, I got turned in three different times, wow, by colleagues who wanted me fired well, I mean, that was, that was the event that got gordon fired right right, yeah, and so, similarly, I I was a couple people made a run.

Speaker 2: 1:47:09

My what I got turned in for was hilarious, like, and so in my and my boss basically told him to go fly a kite, you know. So it was fine, but you know, like that was pretty crazy and it was actually pretty tepid stuff to be honest with you but, but, but even, even like working within a Catholic institution, and some of this is generational.

Speaker 2: 1:47:31

But the older folks, like the boomers, they don't understand the idea of a loyal criticism, a loyal opposition. If I even breathe in the wrong way about Francis, there are some people who'd be like, well, you can't say that I'm like what we read, dante, can I?

Speaker 1: 1:47:57

can I put Celestine in hell, right?

Speaker 2: 1:48:00

Right, right, can. Can we do? Like Boniface is in hell, celestine's like can we talk about? So it's just such a weird. It's so weird. That's why I'm specifically asking this in the context of because I never put myself forward like when my YouTube stuff. I never put my stuff forward as like a Catholic thing. You know, people know I'm Catholic, obviously, you know, and I do talk, but that's never been. I've been. That's the one thing that I've been super careful about is not putting myself forward in that way. Yeah, no, you're talking about a lot of times it's poetry and you know different things like that. So for me it's really you know a lot of ideas, I have a lot of freedom because I work construction for my own. Yeah, it's like there's nothing, I don't care what the hell I say. It's like you're not getting me fired, it's just it's never going to happen.

Speaker 1: 1:48:52

So my I do worry. You look at your iPad while you're driving.

Speaker 2: 1:48:57

That's that I'll get fired for. That I'll get fired for for being driving a truck right being on Twitter with the camera in the truck?

Speaker 1: 1:49:04

Yeah, Truck on twitter. So that's um, but rob I worry about because rob has a civvy job.

Speaker 2: 1:49:15

It's like you know you gotta be. I'm literally in charge of hr, right, right, wow. So yeah, it's a dangerous thing being online man. It's like it's kind of fun.

Speaker 1: 1:49:22

I'm not gonna lie, it's kind of fun that risk, that level of risk there makes it interesting, right yeah?

Speaker 2: 1:49:27

like. I don't like roller coasters, but I like this, this tweet. This tweet might get me fired, let's do it. But I had that silly tweet where I just posted burke and sarah walking and I said pray it wasn't even your video I know, I know, I know it's crazy dude. It's got 9.5 million views on it right now. The original guy who posted it has like 400 000 on it I have my easter. Felice navidad tweet went nowhere. Nowhere. You never know what. These stupid tweets, what's gonna? Take off.

Speaker 2: 1:49:57

You know the hat I mean the hat anthony, like what the hell. It's just so weird what people get picked up what. What picks up for me with that stupid tweet with the two cardinals was it went into some weird place that wasn't even Catholic and people just talking about the Riz and like they got aura and things like that it was just like I've never seen any of these people before they're not anybody, I know, they're just in this weird subculture on Twitter that I'd never seen before.

Speaker 2: 1:50:24

It was like you just don't know what the algorithm is going to push out there. Man, have y'all ever messed with TikTok? Rob's supposed to, but Rob, Rob, TikTok is hilarious.

Speaker 1: 1:50:36

I don't understand how.

Speaker 2: 1:50:40

One time I went on and I said something super innocuous but it was something about the Signal Gate thing with Hank Seth and all that kind of crap. I'm not exactly Mr Super Trump guy, whatever, but it was like something about the signal gate thing with like and all that kind of crap. And you know what I mean. Like, I'm not exactly like Mr Super Trump guy, like, like whatever, like you know. And I just said it says I went on just as an experiment. I said, yeah, like this whole signal thing it's like, it's just really not a big deal. It blew up and it is such a female heavy space oh for sure that even like the smallest. And I said something about Tate and I wasn't even like, as you guys know, I am not a pro-Tate guy, but I said hey, maybe we should care about what the boys think the hate.

Speaker 1: 1:51:31

Even the men on there are so feminine oh, because they're all.

Speaker 2: 1:51:34

They're all, they're all part of the long. It's it. That is the long house. Tiktok is the long house, you know but what's cool about it? Put on tiktok. No, no, but. But I'll tell you guys this there that I mean, if you want to see this with sort of like mission field, there are bros on TikTok who are dying to have some kind of manly content on there and it doesn't have to be Tim Gordon, chest up and you know, you know, if you don't do two plates you suck kind of garbage.

Speaker 2: 1:52:04

I mean just basic, basic. You know, like, hey, guys, like we care about you, like be a man, like live up, guys, we care about you Be a man, live up to your responsibility. I've had so many people reach out to me privately and tell me I can't tell you how refreshing it is to see two men just talking Like presenting, without the LARP, without the tweed and the cigars or the Rob Smoke cigars, but like the pipes yeah, I've had so many.

Speaker 2: 1:52:30

I'm only drinking wine because I get it. Yeah, the tweed and the cigars or the rob smoke cigars, but like the pipes and the yeah, like I've had so many wine because I get it.

Speaker 1: 1:52:35

Yeah, yeah on the on the yeah but yeah, it's just it's.

Speaker 2: 1:52:40

There are so many people faking it out there that I think people do just enjoy, rob and I, just our authenticity, you know. But we're also not a big show it's, you know, we're, we're at a very comfortable look. Rob and I are at a size now where it's like, okay, we make enough, where it makes it worth doing it Right. So we spend four hours a week doing this and it's like, okay, it's not taking too much of our time and we are making a little bit of money doing it now and we still both have to work our regular jobs. But it's, it's a it's a really nice gig now and you enjoy it right, I mean love it.

Speaker 3: 1:53:15

You enjoy, right, that that's love it.

Speaker 2: 1:53:16

That's the thing. Yeah, yeah, right, right, think about how much fun we had tonight, like, yeah, like, and and listen, I, I did four shows today. Yeah, before before we came on, I was like oof, I can't believe I'm about to do another one. But the second we we get on, I start having fun. It's like, dude, two hours went by. That felt like 20 minutes. That's when you know you had a good show. Is when two hours flies by. There's times where I'm looking at the clock on. Do we have enough to cover this? Yeah, can we get to an hour? That's the show is where you know. It's like, ooh, that's a rough one.

Speaker 1: 1:53:53

You know it's like, oh, that's a rough one, you know so but it's like when two hours goes by like this and I do have to get some sleep now.

Speaker 3: 1:53:59

Same thing, son of a.

Speaker 2: 1:53:59

Really wait, rob. How are these guys sitting out there? It's in locals, okay it's in locals. Yeah, the thing that is the cool thing about locals that you you can put pictures at Locals. I wish YouTube had that Me too, but it must just get so abused.

Speaker 1: 1:54:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:54:16

It must get the porn spammed. That's true. Yeah, the thing that sucks about Locals is you can't just highlight the comments With YouTube you can highlight the comment on screen. You have to show the whole thing. That makes us small.

Speaker 1: 1:54:29

Did you know Anthony did four shows today? I had no idea Anthony did four shows today. I definitely didn't hear Anthony did four shows today.

Speaker 2: 1:54:33

I didn't hear a thing. You know, somebody was saying the other day that Substack is going to run a Video, right, yeah, like they're going to start a streaming. So like that's something that I might jump on, because I do have an audience. You already have a subscriber base, yeah, so I think I might do that. So if I could do a kind of like a contained, like we do here with local, like a contained thing, I might just do that and see what happens. That would be awesome, because they already allow audio podcasts but people want video now. Yeah, of course, our audio podcasts never do nearly as well as our video podcasts. It's just, even when I'm, when I'm in my car, I have youtube on my ipad and I'm driving with youtube on. I don't know why.

Speaker 1: 1:55:16

It's like clipping this for anthony's uncle. All right, we're gonna wrap this up, kale.

Speaker 2: 1:55:21

I always freaking have fun talking with you.

Speaker 3: 1:55:22

Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 2: 1:55:23

I really appreciate you guys, I really love you guys have me and I appreciate it and flattered it's uh it's just always such a different kind of conversation, like it's never the typical, like nobody else is. Nobody else had the conversation we had today, you know anthony and rob apparently the jupiter on the clovers man. Oh my gosh cheese curds I like the white beater. Yeah, the greasy white beater, the greasy white beater oh my god, that's so good.

Speaker 1: 1:55:56

I'm putting that on Twitter. Whoever sent that?

Speaker 2: 1:55:59

That's a keeper, alright. So, cal, maybe we'll do this again as the Conclave gets closer, maybe after one of those talks Gets put out, or something I would like to.

Speaker 2: 1:56:14

I definitely want to have a group that we coordinate with, so I want you to be in the rotation as the weeks go by, because I think the best way we can all help each other is by going on each other's shows and stuff and we're trying to build the alt-Catholic media space Because we're gatekept out of catholic ink like we're never going to be on frad.

Speaker 1: 1:56:34

We're the woke right catholic I love it.

Speaker 2: 1:56:36

I love it, that's right. We should, we should totally embrace it yeah the woke right, totally just we are the woke right catholic media. We will keep. We'll keep the jQ out of Kale's thing, but y'all are terrible alright we'll see you next time take a nap, thank you.