Controversial Conversations with Katherine Bennett

What happens when political movements capture the hearts of the faithful? Katherine Bennett of Catholic Unscripted joins Anthony to explore how easily Catholics can be swept along by political currents that promise relief from progressive agendas, yet ultimately distract us from our true center—Christ and His Church.

The conversation delves into our modern tendency to seek messiahs in unlikely places. "I was being drawn too much by the political," Catherine admits, "and there was a danger that I was taking my eyes off Christ and His Church." This vulnerability affects many believers who, after feeling "battered by the progressive agenda," embrace political figures or movements without sufficient discernment. They explore how even opposition to transgender ideology can become a "false flag" that makes us accept other problematic developments simply because they come from "our side."

Most striking is their examination of sacred architecture as a reflection of cultural priorities. Anthony shares his revelation visiting European cathedrals: "When you go into a grand cathedral, you are a peasant being welcomed into the kingdom... You're in the heavenly kingdom." This contrasts sharply with American cities dominated by skyscrapers—"monuments to money"—revealing where our contemporary worship truly lies. The traditional liturgy, they argue, properly orients us by "placing us rightly, in all humility, before our Lord" instead of approaching as equals.

During this time of papal transition, both speakers express hope for healing among Catholics of goodwill despite differences. Their conversation offers a refreshing call to personal sanctity over political activism: "God will raise up the saints needed for this time, and that saint could be you or me." The path forward isn't found in carrying banners or saving the world through activism, but in faithful living of our unique vocations.

What's your primary source of orientation in these confusing times? Join the conversation and rediscover what it means to place Christ at the center of everything.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to Catholic Unscripted
• 5:15 Political Movements vs. Church Tradition
• 15:30 The Dangers of Transhumanism and Technology
• 24:45 Return to Traditional Liturgy
• 34:03 Conversations on Controversial Topics
• 47:45 The Next Papal Conclave
• 58:00 Faith Amid Modern Challenges
• 1:07:29 Remaining Faithful in a Digital Age

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:09

Sancte, sancte, amare morti et gradas nos In tes vera verum. Okay, welcome Catherine Bennett from Catholic Unscripted. Catherine, this is my third stream of the day. So I was on with Joe McLean this morning on his show, then I interviewed Mark and Michael Hichborn at 10. And now you're my third, but you're the interview I've been looking forward to the most today. You and I had met at the Catholic Identity Conference. I wasn't like I had no idea what to expect when you gave your talk and you came out the gate. Hilarious, which I've said many times. Women aren't funny. You were very funny, which I've said many times, women aren't funny.

Speaker 1: 1:06

You were very funny. I was like surprisingly, I was. I was really surprised by how hard you spoke against feminism in general and you told a really touching story about your mother and I was you and I had spoke after I was like I would love to get you on for a one-on-one. My wife is also very excited for this conversation, so welcome thank you, thanks for having me on yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:33

so, um, you and I had reached out to one. Well, actually I found this interesting. You had reached out to me, um, a little after the election and and I'm I wasn't sure why you knew you'd receive a friendly response in it. But you had asked me hey, how are you feeling about all the Trump stuff? And I said, to be honest, I'm a little cautious about it. I feel like everybody's just being swept up in this wave and my worry is that everybody because it's Trump doing it the same things we were worried about under the previous administration, now that Trump is doing it, we're all going rah, rah, maga, you know, and what? What made you feel comfortable enough to even ask me that? Because most people like freak out if you don't go along with the MAGA wagon.

Speaker 2: 2:17

I don't know really, anthony, and maybe let's say there's some providence at play and and just some discernment. Say there's some providence at play and just some discernment. But I, like you and so many people I think, have just felt so battered by the progressive agenda, the madness around transgender ideology, what's happening in schools, the indoctrination and the lies going to our children, the untrammeled and unlimited immigration with which apparently cannot be spoken about, the suppression of speech, and I think we've been so battered by that that, you know, in the beginning I too was like seeing what Trump was saying and the kind of moves he was making. It felt like coming up for air, you know. It's like, oh, at last. You know.

Speaker 2: 3:04

And I think I noticed quite early on that there was a danger in my own instinct to to, to leap to anything that wasn't what we'd been given, what we'd been fed, and at that point I started to realize that I was being drawn too much by the political and, and there was a danger that I was taking my eyes off Christ and his church, holy Mother Church, and I thought, if we're ever looking for answers outside of the church, you know, and the guidance that we've been given in the tradition there, then I think we need to be worried.

Speaker 2: 3:36

And then that was the kind of instinct and I don't know. So, first of all, we're, we're friends and you're over there in the US, I'm in the UK, so to some extent we're just observing from afar, although our countries clearly have this, this, their allies, um, and we know that what happens over there, it has an impact here. But so, first of all, it was just for the fact that you, you know, you're one of one of the people I know over there who it affects more directly, and just trusting your judgment and and thought I'd sort of sound you out on where you were. So that began, I think, our us talking about this and and recognizing that maybe all was not as ideal as it might have seemed.

Speaker 1: 4:15

Yeah, it's, it's this. Look, I almost, it almost feels like the the trans stuff was like a false flag, like it was so preposterous that like nobody liked it, and it was like they're forcing this stuff down our throat, that the guy that comes in and rescues us from that you want. Your instinct is to go. Finally we have a hero. But it is dangerous when it's such an easy low hanging fruit thing, that to thing that to just get people to go. Oh, they're not trying to put my son in a dress anymore. I guess we've won.

Speaker 1: 4:49

It's like that's not winning, you know. It's like okay, so this slight like, exactly as you described. It's like, oh, they let us come up for air a bit, which is probably, you know, it was almost like a pressure release valve in that. You know, it was almost like a pressure release valve in that and, um, I but I find, uh, the catholics especially that just go along with everything trump is doing are kind of swept up in a political movement and it's like some of the things it feels like like now conservatives are for electric cars because of elon. Now like, uh, they're trumpeting this real ID thing because of immigration, but meanwhile it looks like a step towards digital ID down the road, all these things that we would have lost our minds under Biden doing.

Speaker 1: 5:35

Well, because Trump is doing it, it's okay, and I feel like Thomas Massey in our country is probably one of the only people speaking out clearly about some of the dangers of this stuff. All the stuff Elon found in Doge, it's like, oh, he found all this waste, fraud and abuse, but yet they went and passed the same budget to keep funding these. I don't know. It all just seems like we're being lulled in to accept the very things we were very worried about before.

Speaker 2: 5:59

But because it's on the Trump, we're going to go for it yeah, I mean that that Doge stuff worried me because I thought like let's look a little bit at what we're doing. We are celebrating, we are joyful, we are jumping up and down and going ha-ha, you got found out, you got found out, look at this waste. And I thought, well, hold up, we are all vulnerable to messing up to. You know, do we really want such a society of intense surveillance and this, this kind of? You know it's like, it's like setting up of, of justice, of God. You know it's like kind of this, I will be your, your final judge and you just think, well, hang on. There's no doubt that there was awful overspend and wastage and it's embarrassing, I mean, some of it's laughable. You know, going to Afghanistan and and and teaching them about.

Speaker 2: 6:53

Dushanbe's toilet or something you know, seriously, it was hilarious, but but there's, there was also in the back of my mind something that that, like you said, the transhumanism stuff, the digital ID stuff, the stuff coming from Musk, I've got, you know, even just that dark MAGA stuff. What's that about? That's not nothing in terms of symbolism, this dark MAGA, you know that's.

Speaker 1: 7:18

The way it really like made me start thinking deeply was when I tried to talk to my father about this, and my father's an older guy. He's, and he's almost I think he's 70, now 69 and just he started talking about Elon like he was this amazing guy, the guy's laying down all of it. You know he's risking everything for the country and I'm like man, elon is a transhumanist like this guy. He everybody thinks he bought Twitter for some altruistic reason for free speech. No, he didn't. He wanted our data. Like, and Twitter is one of those platforms where you put your every thought out on and it it's like such a deep insight into the human psyche. It seems like he's trying to really like get into our brains. He worries me a lot, elon. Like get into our brains, he worries me a lot, elon. And somebody had uh, somebody had.

Speaker 1: 8:10

Oh, it was when trump put the the gaza video out and in the video there was like golden statues of trump and stuff like that and just looking from the outside, you know that people talk about oh, the antichrist will be this person and everybody thought it was going to be somebody on the left and I'm like I've never seen worship of a person like I have with Trump, like if anybody in our modern world fits the description. It seems like Trump to me. They're building golden statues to him and Elon is this John the Baptist figure paving the way for him through Doge. I'm not saying he actually is the Antichrist, it's just I've never seen that pattern lay out quite like I have with Elon and Trump, and it's scary.

Speaker 2: 8:53

Yeah, it's weird. I mean whatever you think it's weird. But it's also strange how online we are, how manufactured everything is, how much of an artificial storm is being whipped up around us and we're being drawn into it even deeper with with all of this, you know, you think about. You think about Elon's saying OK, for years we've been told the planet's overpopulated, we need to depopulate or we need to have birth control and we need to so. So that's obviously a terrible thing to to put limits on people's um, you know, having having babies and to put limits on life and to encourage sterility. That's a bad thing. But Elon doesn't take the view. Well, what's the right view is to is to be in a loving marriage and to be fertile and for this love to be the, you know, the mirror of the trinity. It's just great. He's not against that. But in his response is we should have babies. There should be more babies. It doesn't matter who we're.

Speaker 1: 9:55

You know all different women and it's 12 kids, six baby mamas in vitro, all that I'm not even, I'm not even making comment on his own life.

Speaker 2: 10:03

That's his own business. But but to think that his response, which is, you know, it's against the wrong thing this way, but because it's also swinging to the wrong thing this way, doesn't make it right, it's still a, it's still an appalling response that we just need to, we need to be having more kids any which way you want, guys, you know I, we all know that, uh, gay people who have bought babies, who have used surrogates, who have, who have deprived them of a mother, this is a great evil. Ivf is a great evil. Embryos destroyed and frozen, and and these are human persons, this is a great evil. If we can't call that out because they are not woke, then we've got a problem it's?

Speaker 1: 10:49

it's interesting because somebody put out a tweet today about trump offering five thousand dollars to new mothers and it's like, if you don't, if you don't um package that in five thousand dollars to new mothers who are in a committed married relationship between a man and a woman, you're talking about just throwing tons of money at the baby mamas who got all these different baby dads. You're encouraging promiscuity and people to just have children with whoever and it'll lead to the destruction of the family if not put in the right context, and that's the pattern, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 11:24

Destroy the family, destroy the nation, and that's the pattern, isn't it? Destroy the family, destroy the nation and we? It's destroy hierarchy, destroy the hierarchy in the church, destroy authority, flatten everything out. And that's this modernist project, this post-enlightenment rationalistic, modernist, brutalist. And that is why we're seeing a return to tradition in the church. That's why people are being drawn to the traditional liturgy. It's because actually the human person recognises.

Speaker 2: 11:52

It might not be intelligible, you might not be able to say why, but that's a modern idea anyway, to be able to explain everything. It's more of a recognition of who we are and that mystery, that liturgy, it it places us rightly, uh, before our lord, humbly, in all humility, before our lord. It we're not walking in like, hey, you know, yeah, god, you and me, mate, we're one, we're level, it's yeah, and we need that, and actually we need that. It's like children, children who you say I love you so much, I'm gonna let you do what you want. Just wander in the road, just go and put your hands in the fire. That's not love, what? Let you do what you want, as if we're the best judge of what, of what we need, our creation the interest.

Speaker 1: 12:42

So that it's really interesting that you even mentioned the liturgy, because we see the ancient liturgy is the foundation for Christendom. Like if you go back you see that liturgy was the tradition that was passed down by the apostles and it is what converts the pagan world. So to have what has happened over the last 60 years kind of just crash down on society and then have the liturgy changed as well to where it used to be the priest facing the altar and god before all things like all of that plays into this whole misunderstanding of the human person and it starts to me I think you can't get back to fixing anything unless we do fix the liturgy, which I think is why everybody is drawn to the ancient liturgy is kind of intuitive yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2: 13:43

I mean, this is nature, try as you might what is true, you can try. And this is where I think we must have hope, because you will always fail. If it's not the perennial truth, it will fail. Whether it fails in our lifetime or not, I don't know, and in a sense I don't know how much we should care, because we have to focus on our own sanctity, on our own children and helping them to become the saints that they've been created to be. But I think you're right.

Speaker 2: 14:11

Any degradation in the church to the extent that there has been, I mean actually no, the church is divine. So so let's, let's. It's both human and divine, we know that. But but any kind of slippage or compromise is going to impact the world. It's, of course it is. It's going to impact society, it's going to impact our culture. They're not. You can't just take it out and say, oh, the church is just a separate thing, and then the world? No, the church is the center, it's the anchor. And around this you know this it leads, it should lead, it shouldn't follow the world when I so I had gone to italy.

Speaker 1: 14:49

It was the first time I ever left america. I went to italy in december and every single city we went to is the cathedral, was the high point, and then you had everything kind of built around the cathedral. Now in america, everything is so lopsided. It's our tallest building was the trade center. It's like this monument to money. It shows shows where our idols are right, Cause everything is focused on money in America. It's a. It's a strange city to cut Like. I live in New York. You come to New York and you just see these huge monuments built to money. And when I went to Italy, it's you saw why that Christian civilization endured for as long as it did. It was because they always put god first. It was the highest point and they had a symbolic view of the world. They knew whatever you made, the highest was the thing you looked up toward. Where our modern culture is just the things that we put at the highest order is just completely upside down.

Speaker 2: 15:48

Yeah, and people need, people really need guidance, and that must come from the church. Mark and I were talking just yesterday in, you know, following the death of Pope Francis, that the world looks at you know, pope Francis and his pontificate, with these horizontal, worldly eyes, which says what a great guy. You know, he's so simple, he wore simple white robes, he didn't even stay in the papal palace, he had simple black shoes and he's in a fia uno or whatever. And isn't that great. According to what judgment? According to to the way you judge any bloke on the street, this leveling, levelling that people say sell all the art, sell all the buildings the Catholic Church could pay for all the poor and to lift people out of poverty. And you know, as if this hasn't been dealt with in scripture, as if this isn't right there in the inerrant word of God when Judas says no, don't waste that oil on Jesus, sell it and give the money to the poor.

Speaker 2: 16:48

You know, pope Benedict deals with this in Jesus of Nazareth, in the first book, where he goes through that exact point. He says the people love Barabbas. We want Barabbas, we want Barabbas. He was set up as a kind of alter ego to Jesus and he was worldly. What's he going to offer you? He's going to be a fighter for the kingdom and for everything worldly. And what do the people choose? They choose Barabbas, and Pope Benedict deals with that so well and he says would we choose Barabbas again today?

Speaker 2: 17:22

Would we choose this humble man, jesus, no would we choose this Absolutely?

Speaker 1: 17:26

We would humble man Jesus. No, we would choose Barabbas. Barabbas means son of the father. It's like Bar Abba means son of the father and um, yeah, we're. We're constantly looking for a false Messiah, which is what I kind of see in Trump, right, like you think about. Okay, so yes, I saw a clip from the view earlier where they're like Pope Francis was the most Jesus-like pope ever and I remember the red shoes that Benedict wore and everybody was like his red shoes.

Speaker 1: 17:52

It's like Benedict was trying to bring the kingdom to earth and people really like to understand what the kingdom on earth, like the gospel, is so linked to. When Jesus goes throughout the gospel he says repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand and what happens is heaven colonizes earth. That's what actually happens. You see, that's what our cathedrals are. You're in the country with a monarchy, so for Americans it might be something they miss, but when you go into a grand cathedral, you are a peasant being welcomed into the kingdom. It's like you would never be invited to the coronation of King Charles, but you can walk into the coronation of the king of the universe by going into a cathedral. You go in and you're in the heavenly kingdom and you should be meditating upon the kingdom of heaven when you go into these cathedrals yeah, it's like you want to sell all that.

Speaker 2: 18:49

Who to what? For who does this belong to? This belongs to the, the, the simplest peasant, the prostitute on the street. This, this beautiful architecture, this beautiful art. It belongs to us. Who you're going to sell it to? Some private interest group, some, some of the highest bidder, so that they can do what with it, turn it into a disco? It's done, yeah, which they have done in the UK, where we're all obviously our churches were stolen. We want them back.

Speaker 1: 19:18

It's, but it's happening. It's happening everywhere, right? So you had even in Albany, new york, in my state, they gave the cathedral away to muslims. It's like there was a. There was a traditional group who wanted to buy it and they said no and they gave it to muslims, because this whole um lurching towards ecumenism is such a bizarre thing that the hierarchy is doing. I caught it with cardinal dolan. This lent was like I don't know why he does it every year.

Speaker 1: 19:49

I don't know why this year irked me talking about ramen he's eating, cooking, talking about fasting, it's like he's, he's pretty, uh, he's pretty funny, cardinal dolan, but I I spoke about him this morning on joe mclean's show. Um, I don't know if rob's coming in, I see he's in there, but Rob, if you're going to come in, pop on different. Joe McLean was talking about Dolan this morning because he's my archbishop, technically, like I'm in the diocese next to him and he was the first bishop to allow, like a gay flag inside the St Paddy's Day parade. But then, like two weeks later, he was in my diocese and he and he confirmed my daughter in the old rite. So it's like he's, he's just a strange character, cardinal Dolan, but this year during Lent, he's eating that cookie and he's talking about our, our Muslim brothers and Ramadan. And I was like man, these guys can't talk about the Christian faith without mentioning, you know, the Jewish Passover or Muslim Ramadan. I wonder who they're, even pastors for it's. It's? We really live in such bizarre times now.

Speaker 2: 20:56

Yeah, and are these people coming in? Are they giving up their ways? Are they converting to Catholicism? Because you do that Half the time? I just don't think they even respect respect because they see it's transparency and say, well, you're not standing for what you actually are. I was in an AA van, which is a road recovery vehicle over here, when I broke down and the guy driving was a Muslim and we got talking and I was telling him what I do and he said you know, I don't even know what the UK is. Is it a Christian country? I don't know why you lot seem to be really ashamed of your, your own culture, your own country, your own Christianity, and I thought this is a Muslim telling me he thinks that's not a good thing.

Speaker 1: 21:35

It's very strange that self-hatred that Christians seem to have at this point, especially in the hierarchy. It's bizarre. Yeah, you had. You had actually mentioned in the Green Room that. You said it was anecdotal, but you think that there's some Muslims having dreams of Jesus and talking about pizza ball. What was that?

Speaker 2: 21:56

Well, I don't know, it is anecdotal, but I've heard of as many people watching will have done that a muslims are converting and they are having visions and dreams. And some have spoken about um. They see pizza ballers as pope, you know. A few have have kind of said this is what they see. What to make of that? I have no idea, we were saying what a crazy time we're living in. And god you know, it's in god's hands, but well, you.

Speaker 1: 22:28

Well, you just said. You just said, like, are people even coming in when they, when the hierarchy starts saying these messages? Right, and I saw on the view sonny hostin's. Like you know, pope, I've always struggled with my catholicism. Until pope francis comes along and it's like, okay, but did you go back to mass? No, you just like that you're not embarrassed to tell your liberal friends you're Catholic now because the Pope is over there leading the world to think that we now bless gay unions. I don't know who gets converted by this craziness.

Speaker 2: 22:59

No, no, I know it's madness, isn't it? I'm slightly familiar with the view and I know you have to watch it for work, anthony, and otherwise I would have no interest, but they just seem like a. I mean, we've got a similar thing. I think it's loose women. It's a bunch of women, right who, who sit around and sort of talk about putting the world to rights. Yeah, I saw that Whoopi Goldberg's involved, isn't she?

Speaker 1: 23:27

Yeah, it's like the Whoopi goldberg. Uh, there's a couple other head and peckers she went to meet pope francis, didn't she?

Speaker 2: 23:32

yeah, he gave her an audience, not so much cardinal zen, but whoopi goldberg.

Speaker 1: 23:36

Yeah well before before we jump over the other side. What, what are your? What are your feelings on this conclave coming up like everybody keeps saying the same names over and over. There's a good chance it'll be somebody we had never heard of, who wasn't in the public eye, because things are so public now and there's so many interviews and social media posts of different cardinals saying things. I think there is a good chance we'll get somebody we'd never heard of before, because the fear of bringing somebody who is well known and we'll be able to just go through all of their stuff immediately, like this, this, this conclave, I don't know. I see chaos coming in the church. How are you feeling about it?

Speaker 2: 24:17

Yeah, I'm similar. I think Mark said yesterday it's a month game, trying to predict anything, because you just never know, and you know we can have people that we might prefer um, but as you say, the, it's likely to be somebody we totally out left field. That we didn't, we didn't expect. I, I have no idea. I'd like to see um, I'd like to see a pope who speaks with clarity, you know who guides the world at a time that is, during this confusion, and I think Pope Francis was just too ambiguous. You know, in my view he was a Pope loved by atheists and secularists.

Speaker 2: 24:59

But, as we've said before, where did it take them? The churches are hemorrhaging, you know there's there's footage of women dancing around church and they're empty. And then where's? Where's the good fruit? Where? Where is it growing? Where it's more traditional? And there's nothing. You know that that's God moving in spite of everything. And so I'd like to see a Pope. Partly. You know what, anthony, it's not even coming out and saying and teaching a lot of stuff. I just think there was too much. You know, pope Francis, there was a time you just felt like just just just shut up, just shut up Again.

Speaker 1: 25:43

So just yeah, holding back. It was an exhausting 12 years that we had to endure. It's like you think about, like it was just exhausting, but there, look I there were good things that came from it. What? But which I would just say? Even the relationships I made over the over the course of the past 12 years, because we felt like we were being attacked. It kind of made us form communities where we could endure that attack and meet other people of like-mindedness.

Speaker 1: 26:13

But my real hope for the next pope is that I think there are good people in these different fragmented segments of the church. I feel like the church itself, the laity, are so fragmented right now. Everybody's got their clique and I would love to see a pope come in and kind of unite the Catholics of goodwill and at least if we could have some healing amongst the brothers and the sisters who actually believe the faith, even if it's not this ultra-traditionalist that comes in and fixes everything. I think if there could be some healing amongst each other, where we're not calling somebody a popesplainer, I would love to see some healing there, because I do think there's going to be persecution down the road and if at least we could link arms with our brothers. It would make things a lot easier to deal with.

Speaker 2: 27:05

Yeah, I think that's really important, and exactly what we need is that unity, and let's hope we get it.

Speaker 1: 27:17

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:18

Watch this. I'm actually flying. Oh no, no, Saturday's the funeral, isn't it? Yeah, I'm going to be flying.

Speaker 1: 27:24

Yeah, and then?

Speaker 2: 27:24

no fright, no Saturdays, the funeral, isn't it? Yeah, and then we'll, we'll see. I don't know if I'll be in the U? S when I'm there for for just over a week, so I don't know what will happen during that time.

Speaker 1: 27:35

But we'll see. So, all right, I do want to talk about some stuff we're not going to talk about on YouTube. I want to ask you about some of the pushback you're receiving over there for your recent interview so for anybody because a lot of people were looking forward to me talking about that. But I think we're going to do that. On the other side, I saw some people that I actually did respect up until recently coming down and attacking you guys and I was like I just don't understand why this person couldn't make a phone call and things like that. So we're going to go over to the other side and we're going to talk about that. It's going to take me a minute to cut these other feeds off, but anybody that is not a Locals member go join our Locals. That's where we have the more difficult conversations, and then Rob and I will be interviewing Cale Zeldin tonight at 8 pm.

Speaker 1: 28:23

Catherine Catherine's on Catholic Unscripted. If you guys are not subscribed to Catholic Unscripted, definitely head over there. I'm typically we don't usually have women on this show, catherine, but I could not not talk to you. I had to have a conversation with you. My wife was very excited for this one too. She's been watching you from afar, just saying how brave you are, so I know she's excited for this one too. She's been watching you from afar just saying how brave you are, so I know she's excited for this conversation.

Speaker 2: 28:48

Well, you're very kind, thank you.

Speaker 1: 28:50

All right, we're going to cut these other feeds off. We'll see you guys on the other side. Let me just say it's usually have Rob here to do all this, but when did he go? He's working today. So I took off of work today for I just thought I figured you know how often do we get a you know a death in the papacy and a conclave coming up. So I figured let me take a day off. I went on Joe McLean's show this morning. It's been.

Speaker 1: 29:24

I just figured let me jam all the people in that I don't normally get to interview because you're on a totally different time zone than me. It's either we did this or I have to do a Saturday show. This was the best rest. Let me just see I have one more. I have to get rid of Just the rumble. Let's say, OK, that should be it. We should still be on local, OK. So one of the other conversations you and I had was so you were introduced to Father Maudsley from the Catholic Identity Conference yourself. Right, I think that's where I first found him.

Speaker 2: 30:07

Yeah, I suppose it would have been yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:11

And then you decided to interview him and I know you guys got a ton of pushback on that. He's somebody where you're not going to control the conversation. He's going to say what he's going to say. So I did see in the first moment of coming out it was like, oh okay, this is like a fire hose. We're just getting right into this, I see. But watching the pushback from certain segments, you guys are definitely more respectable than we are. So I had a conversation similar to yours with father Maudsley, but I didn't really get much pushback. But just seeing what they, what they did to you I saw Deacon Nick Donnelly came out hammering against you guys. I saw a jihad watch came out after you. What has that been like? Just dealing with all the pushback.

Speaker 2: 31:02

Yeah, I spoke over on YouTube about how we're we're living. You know and I know this might seem hypocritical because we run a podcast but we're we're living in an in an online world, and I think it's easy to be so swept up in a storm a manufactured storm and and think it's real and let it touch your real life. And you have to walk your dogs, look in your kids eyes, eat with them. You know, you have to remember this is not because I think that's what's. I think that's kind of what people want. They want you to think this is real, and so it was. On the one hand, it was like it was horrible, but on the other, you see it for what it is. I just think people reveal themselves. I took the view that you just keep a dignified silence, which I did. I didn't respond to positive things or negative things. I just thought, well, that's because the problem is, isn't it, anthony? Is once you get into that, you realize it's not really what people want. It's people. Whatever you do is never going to be good enough, because they've decided they want to attack you, right? So you think back to Black Lives Matter. When George Floyd died, we had this thing where I mean I was watching it like kind of from.

Speaker 2: 32:24

I've never been into social media. I only started with Catholic Unscripted. I never got into Facebook. I never got into Twitter. It's all very recent for me. Um, I avoided it, but I saw my older kids and the kids from school that they live in this online world and there were. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. There were. There was a day when apparently, you had to put a black square.

Speaker 1: 32:46

I remember that.

Speaker 2: 32:48

And if you didn't, you're a racist.

Speaker 1: 32:50

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:51

And I was. I was laughing, I was saying are you serious? You're, there were kids shaking with fear because they didn't put a black square on Instagram, and now they're racist. And then you say, hang on, all lives matter, right.

Speaker 1: 33:06

You racist, you're so racist.

Speaker 2: 33:08

All lives. Oh wow, I'm so sorry for my racism Like that's insanity. That's the kind of insanity that I am not going to buy into or play, or play along with. So once people start compelling you and saying you've got to do, and if you don't do this, you're complicit, you're a racist I could see the same patterns. So we faced and also Father Mortley is Father Mortley. What he says doesn't necessarily reflect what I believe. So it's just not fair to lay all that at our door.

Speaker 1: 33:40

I think it's okay. All we heard for the past few years was you shutting people out of the conversation to let the let the best idea win. And the thing is, for me this was a conscience issue. I like I really don't want to talk about this issue. I don't. It's.

Speaker 1: 33:57

What I saw happening was some horrible things happening between Gaza and Israel, and then I saw a lot of Catholics justifying, like the, the murder and slaughter of innocent children and things like that, and finding ways to justify all of that. And that's what kind of made me start thinking about this issue a little bit. And then I started thinking about it from a theological point of view. And how, like, what role do do the Jews play in salvation history? And when you see in the old Testament, so much of it is about the covenant passing to the Gentiles and the and the Jews reaction to that, like I, I kind of had to see that if, if the Pharisees crucify Christ the first time, how do they not in a theological sense and typological sense, how are they not going to be the same?

Speaker 1: 34:52

It should be the same thing in Christ's return right, like the persecution of the church. They're going to play some kind of a role in it, to play some kind of a role in it. So you know, I do think it's tricky with Father Maudsley when he comes right out the gate talking about the Holocaust and things like that, because I don't it kind of makes people just go, I don't want to hear this and they shut the conversation down. But that doesn't mean there's not important things that he's saying that Catholics are going to need to grapple with.

Speaker 2: 35:32

Yeah, like you, I'm less interested and to some extent don't even really know. I don't have the time in my life to be trawling through endless videos. I've read Father Morsley's books. I think they're very, very interesting books and very good books, and I'll say that, and I happen to know him personally and he's a good and kind friend as well.

Speaker 2: 35:52

But, as you say, to speak theologically, spiritually, typologically, that has to be done. We can't avoid that out of fear. Now, I do understand that this needs to be, that we need to speak prudently because, though we might be speaking spiritually and theologically, that may not be how it's heard. So I can understand that. But to say it cannot be discussed at all is problematic.

Speaker 2: 36:23

And what's interesting just to pick up on your point about Israel and Palestine is that this again we see this political ideology, this political attachment. So certainly over here, israel is a right wing cause, supporting Israel is a right wing cause, supporting as a right-wing cause, supporting Palestine is a left-wing cause. So if you've pinned your colors to a right-wing cause and you don't like the progressives and you don't like the um, the policies of the left, then you just are a supporter of Israel and Zionism and and what I? I think that's problematic as Catholics. That is problematic because we can't. It's like those people like Dave Rubin, great conservative commentator, then bought babies. As far as I know, that's bad Like if we can't call out because, because we like his conservatism, our politics have trumped our faith faith.

Speaker 1: 37:27

Yep, I see it like it's just because there's some crazy lunatics that take a position doesn't mean they might not have something right in what there's. So, like you don't want to get lumped in with the lunatics or some supporting Hamas, like I kind of see it as there's no good guy over there, there's just no good guy. I'm not supporting Hamas, I. What I do look at is someone like Cardinal Pizzabala who comes out and he's telling you about the actual suffering on the ground and the evils that are being committed there. And there's Palestinian Christians there. This isn't a Jew versus Muslim thing. There's Palestinian Christians. They've all but wiped Christianity out of the Middle East over the past few decades. We're talking about the birthplace of Christianity, where Paul's on the road to Damascus and that's where he has his conversion, and there's no Christians left in Iraq and Afghanistan, anywhere, in all these places that it used to exist.

Speaker 1: 38:16

Now, the other thing about one of the big things that stuck out to me was even the idea of calling it the Holocaust, though the implication of that is that Christians sacrificed all Jews as a burnt offering to God, and just the fundamental fact that we call it that, I think, should raise our alarm bells, because there is one man, jesus Christ, who was sacrificed for our sins, and it wasn't Jews as a collective, and that is what gets pushed in this whole thing.

Speaker 1: 38:51

And then, if you speak heresy against that event, the reaction to Father Mosley, instead of people saying, okay, well, look, this is what you're saying and this is why it's not true, it's this outrageous reaction to him and it's just accusing him of the most horrific things, calling him a Nazi and this and that, and it's like can you just address what he's saying Because he might like you. I can't just watch hundreds of hours of videos on this topic. I don't know what the correct answer is, but I would like to hear a reasoned response to the things that he's saying and then I'll make a decision on whether he's right or wrong on it.

Speaker 2: 39:28

And I think that's very telling, isn't it? And to some extent, I think, can people not see that what you're doing is? It's like giving grist to the mill for people who, who see, if you see someone saying, look, there's a real problem and the problem is, let's say, the Jews Right. And then he speaks about that, and then everyone who otherwise is measured and calm says delete it, shut him up. You, you're terrible, you're Nazis, you're evil, you should burn in hell. Then suddenly, people who never even thought this was a thing to pay attention to are saying whoa, hang on a minute. What this is insane Like. This response is insane.

Speaker 2: 40:13

We've had, we've had public Catholics who individually, on a personal level, we have been friends with, who we have supported, who know full well, full well, anthony, that we are not hateful people, that we do not wish death and destruction on anyone, that we love and teach love and believe in the gospel and want the Jews to convert and pray for the Jews.

Speaker 2: 40:39

That's a good thing, that's a loving thing, that's not something that we should be ashamed to say. But the response has been unlike anything I have ever seen and bear in mind on our podcast. We are not shrinking violence, we talk about Islam and immigration and the riots and the government and the crackdown on free speech and the abortion buffer zone and transgenderism and homosexuality and happily there is flippantly sometimes because we're unscripted, you know, maybe even imprudently at times homosexual infiltration in the church and all this sort of thing without anything other than some people saying you're not very nice, you don't like gay people, which again is just missing the point. But on this, um, it's unlike anything I have ever seen with police reports people saying call this number to report these people to the metropolitan police. Report Catherine for hate crime, she needs to be arrested.

Speaker 2: 41:43

Bear in mind I didn't say I didn't, I didn't say anything Right, so, but I need to be arrested, I need to be put behind bars for hate crime, because I spoke with Father Morsi, ostensibly really about the liturgy and, as you say, I didn't want to be drawn into something and, as you say, I didn't want to be drawn into something that I am just not equipped and don't have the knowledge to be able to engage in that kind of public conversation about.

Speaker 2: 42:13

But I do think you've made a good point about the word holocaust. Let this holocaust is used in the old testament for the oblations in the temple, prefiguringuring then and leading up to the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. The worst thing in history, the greatest crime, the killing of our Lord, and this sacrifice, this perfect love. And then we've just you know, we're just here in the resurrection, um, this, this perfect offering of taking the sins of the world take, taking sins into the tomb and um wiping out sin and death and offering us a eternal, eternal life. That's the biggest thing. The incarnation, the death and the resurrection of our lord jesus christ is the biggest thing, the most significant thing, the thing that is most true and most meaningful in anyone's, any human person's life. So the the word holocaust is loaded with theological significance and there's. That's not to make any comment about denying or saying there wasn't, but the term shoah I think is, is one that is it might be more appropriate to use when we're talking about those events.

Speaker 1: 43:26

Yeah, look, and the thing is it's just the framing of the way this discussion happens. First off, it is dangerous for you to have these conversations in England because we do know they will arrest people for having conversations over there. It's quite crazy, but, yeah, the reaction to it is completely unhinged. But the fact that I'll see people get more upset if you even talk about this issue than they do about blasphemies against our lady or our Lord is shocking to me. It's like you'll see Protestants say things like Mary was just a vessel, like you're speaking about the mother of God in ways that are so degenerate and Catholics will think nothing of it. But then if you touch this narrative, like, do you part of me? Because you see someone like Deacon Nick Donnelly, who I liked, I've always liked, but I was just appalled.

Speaker 1: 44:28

It took a little bit of time, for you know our generation and younger that are starting to say wait a minute, like why is this one event so untouchable? But everything else, like you could comment on any event in history, but this event for some reason just makes people lose their minds and the reaction that you get actually makes me want to look deeper into it. Like you said, like the fact that you get actually makes me want to look deeper into it. Like you said, like the fact that you're reacting like that is making me say, wait a minute, maybe there's something more to this yeah, it's, it's, it's a really interesting one.

Speaker 2: 45:13

I, I, I don't, I don't know, um, I, I think observing what's going on. This is, you know, we need to observe, we need to discern, we need to keep praying, and I'm not saying I have conclusions or answers, but it's been revealing these last few days.

Speaker 1: 45:34

Well, I think that you were just. You were just. Even with that conversation I saw it Like I don't. I think you just wanted to have the conversation and just hear it, right. I think you just wanted to have the conversation and just hear it, right. You made no proclamation of endorsement or anything like that. You were just willing to sit and have a conversation and hear Father Maudsley out.

Speaker 1: 46:09

Now I just would like to see somebody present a reasoned argument against it Now, whether whether the there was actual infiltration because people caved to specific demands. I don't think you can. I think it's.

Speaker 1: 46:15

It'd be silly to say that the men who came from the council like the council is in, you cannot separate the council from World War II council, like the council is in, you cannot separate the council from World War II. And the fact that John Paul II, who was in Poland and witnessed these events, had to get permission from the communists to even attend the council. And then you have Benedict, who was in Germany and he was forced to join the Hitler Youth, like the fact that those two men were the popes after the council and after those events. I think it's kind of like naive to say that those things didn't affect the church and the church's approach. I think that that whole story is why we have this ecumenical outreach and this dialogue, and the things that we're so worried about in the church are directly a cause of the the things that happened back in World War II.

Speaker 2: 47:04

Yeah, I think. So the term infiltration is really loaded, and I think that's part of the problem is if people like you say, irrespective of Father James's intentions, if he says something, and people can't go further than that to hear anything of value because they've already been put put off by that, then that's a shame. You know that that is a shame, but, but, but I, but I think like we, I don't know how good it is for our spiritual lives anyway, but the enemy is always at work. You know the enemy is always at work and the enemy will at work. You know the enemy is always at work and the enemy will.

Speaker 2: 47:46

So people, people waving rainbow flags and wearing leather chaps and going on trains and saying, you know, hey, gay pride and everything, to some extent you look at them and say, isn't that awful? But you also just think you are, god love you. You know god love you. You are such a vessel and a vehicle for the enemy to do this work. And so, um, I may, I, I can see that we, we want to say the enemy is at work and and is he going to try and infiltrate the church? Is he going to try and disrupt the church? Is he going to try and um destroy the spotless bride of christ, will he?

Speaker 1: 48:17

do it.

Speaker 2: 48:19

No, you know yeah, of course he's going to try that. So how he tries that and with what people then to say that can't be discussed again. So I think what I found interesting is I was in news studios the day that the Pope died, or, yeah, the morning he died, and I was three hours in a studio in London doing some rolling commentary for for a national broadcaster and in between takes in the studio I bumped into a fellow catholic journalist and he went for me. He went for me, he was shaking, shaking. He doesn't know me other than through um journalistic work online.

Speaker 2: 48:59

But he and I, he attacked me and, um, the producers had to say we need to separate you and put you in another room. They said this has never happened before. And then he did his piece and he did a good job and he came out and I said oh, thank you that that was a really good interview, well done. And he kind of didn't know what to do then. Because I thought if we respond with, if someone's attacking us and we respond angrily or accusatory or violently, or you know the these, all these pieces you've said nick donnelly jihadi, watch jules gomez attacking and saying you nazis, if I just think the right response is just love your enemy just love your enemy.

Speaker 2: 49:42

I know they're trying to, they're trying to get a reaction, and so the worst thing we can do is to even defend yourself. I think you know, and I think I want to say let my body of work speak for itself. I've been writing as a Catholic journalist for years. I've been broadcasting, and you look at my body of work, mark's body of work, gavin's body of work, and you look at my body of work, mark's body of work, gavin's body of work. If you want to pick something out, take it's like you say OK, let's talk about the issue, but don't just attack the person baselessly, which is what's happening.

Speaker 1: 50:13

You're also in an interesting spot because you guys are a three person show, so you know there's this way that they want to link all three of you to every single idea.

Speaker 1: 50:33

And I had Mark on this morning and him and I disagreed on like I feel like the trajectory the church is on and through Salvation History to me, the events that we're living through right now, with even the election of this next pope and everything, it feels like like the story is building to a crescendo. Like you know, we're coming to the end of a story. I know, I know, I know um michael hitchborn thinks a little more like I do. It feels like we're coming to the end of a story where I think mark disagrees and he's like, well, no, it could take centuries for this to work out and stuff, but there there's disagreement there, but we still love one another and it's you know you're allowed to have a differing opinion from somebody and you're allowed to have a conversation with somebody and it doesn't mean all three of you hold the same opinions and you know that's one of the downsides to having more than one person linked in your show, I think.

Speaker 2: 51:18

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I love Gavin and Mark, we really are the best of friends and, um, we, we've been through a lot together but you know, we, we are our own people and we're just lay Catholics, uh, with a voice.

Speaker 2: 51:31

We're not saying, you know, in a sense we're not trying to point to us, we're trying to point to Christ, always, and and Holy Mother Church, um, but we do disagree on things sometimes, and, and mark, for example, and gavin disagree quite vehemently about russia and ukraine, but we've never, we've always said, well, that that's okay, you can, you can have that out, we're not going to stop you speaking um about that, even though you may have a different point of view, and we do have to balance that and manage that. But I think in that sense we have a responsibility to be a model, because if we're screaming at each other and shouting at each other and ad hominem attacking each other, then what kind of model of Christianity is that, when there are people having the same conversations in the church, also about the Jewish question. The church, you know, also about the Jewish question, also about Israel and Palestine, also about Russia and Ukraine, also about politics. People in the church the world over are having the same conversation, so we have a responsibility to model that well, I think.

Speaker 1: 52:37

Yeah yeah, relationships are hard. So it's like if we, as Christians, can't love the people God has put in our lives, it's going to be awfully hard to love our enemies, right? So I think I think we all I really do admire the way you've handled the whole things. I haven't seen you once lash out and try to defend yourself or anything. But I also think that you're courageous and I think it was think it was awesome that you because it was a difficult conversation to have and you know, I mean I got canceled from a an event in February. I was supposed to speak at a diocesan event and I had somebody coming after me repeatedly accusing me of antisemitism, of of chauvinism and misogyny, all this stuff. And the diocese finally said we're going to cancel you, we can't have you come. And in that moment I said OK, what I learned is never agree to do a diocesan event again, because if they get any kind of pressure, they're going to cave.

Speaker 1: 53:35

But the other thing was I realized if you just turn Twitter off, you don't even know anything's going on, like it's really not real. If you just turn twitter off, nothing's happening. Go like you said kiss your kids, go for a walk.

Speaker 2: 53:47

It's not the real world yeah, get in the real world, yeah, and um, we I'm really sorry to hear that, by the way and and I think that's a real shame um, because your, your voice is needed, yours and rob's, uh, in, you know, in this, in this, at this time, um, publicly, uh, but we've, we've faced it too. You know, we went to Ireland and there was an attempt to shut us down. We went to the north of England and there was a similar attempt to shut us down and hateful things written about us, and I've always taken the view look, same same about the Maudsley interview. I've taken the view look, I'm right, if I'm right with God, my concern is getting to confession, um, loving my family, failing as I do, and going back and asking, by God's grace, to pick me up and to and to continue trying.

Speaker 2: 54:33

If I feel I'm right with God, then that's, that's my priority. That's my priority. I don't priority, I don't need to, I don't need to prove myself to somebody saying but you are, aren't you? Come on, if you don't say anything, you must be complicit. Well, that's what they're telling me. But you know, if God, you know it's between me and God, right, yeah?

Speaker 1: 54:58

And I'm constantly asking God to like, if I'm wrong, show me I'm wrong. Like I don't want to double down on an incorrect position. So it's like even even the way I handled Francis, like I wasn't I always had a hard time with anybody who was like 100 percent sure in their conclusions about Francis. It's like he's an invalid pope or you know, the chair is vacant or he's the greatest thing that's ever walked the face of the. You know he's the greatest Pope ever, the most.

Speaker 1: 55:24

It's like I think anybody that doubles down so hard in their position on something like that, that is just unknowable. Like we just we don't know, maybe down the line some future conclave will say he was an invaluable, you can't possibly know. So why put your, your everything on this position? That is just unknowable. So I mean I remember praying several times like God, if you want me to just be obedient to this Pope and do that like I'll do whatever you want. It's just there were so many warning flags that came up and so many times that something would be so outlandish that I said, okay, my approach is going to be. Just, it's still the church. I don't know what's going to happen. I'm going to leave it to a future Pope to make the determination, and I'm just going to trust that when Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail, he meant it and he knows what's going on, even if I don't.

Speaker 2: 56:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean we don't put our. It's interesting that, because you don't put our stock in things that are unknowable, but but there are knowables as well and on those we stand, and it's not because it's my truth or your truth, but it's because it's the truth. And so we stand on what is known and, in fact, um, the it, it is under the, I say, the current pontificate. Pope Francis has died, of course, and we're currently without a pope. We're all said evocantists, now everyone, but the it's, in fact, the opposite is true.

Speaker 2: 56:57

What we saw is quite a dogmatic and quite a tyrannical approach to issues that were prudential. You know, issues around how we, what's our attitude towards recycling, for example, and net zero. These are prudential issues. These are, these are absolute truths and it's outside the purview of the church. So to say well, well, pope Francis has issued this and we must do this. Say well, well, pope francis has issued this and we must do this, um, it's okay to say well, no on issues to do with life, on conception, from, from on life, from conception to natural death. That's an absolute. So there are some things that are absolute and some things that are prudential, and I, and people over the past 12 years, I think were were taking those prudential issues and saying but your pope says this and this is an absolute, and so to say, well, actually there's room for judgment on that yeah again was something that you were shouted down for and they say, yeah, but you don't say that about abortion.

Speaker 2: 57:55

See a bit, because that isn't, that is not a potential.

Speaker 1: 58:02

How has your perception of john paul ii and benedict changed over? Because for me, I I talked this morning with mark and michael about this like I, I grew up in the jp2 era. Um, I was one of the probably one of the people who was like oh, he's a living saint. During his pontificate it was all about Mother Teresa and John Paul II and Benedict was just like a hero to me. And then, under Francis, it's kind of like when I look back on it, I still have a deep fondness for both of those men. I still have quite a bit of nostalgia for them, but I also am like, oh man, there were a lot of flaws there. I mean even talking about the climate change stuff. Both of them were very pro climate change stuff. But the deeper issue is the personnel they chose, the men who were corrupt and they allowed to get in there, the sec meetings, things like that. Like, when you look back on on on the two of them, has your opinion changed at all?

Speaker 2: 58:59

yeah, I think it's probably similar to to the way you've just expressed it there. Um, I, I have a great fondness for pope benedict the 16th and in fact find his written work phenomenal, phenomenal, um, a great canon and, uh, and in a way that I don't with pope francis, what he's produced. Um, and j too, he was my childhood Pope, you know, the young, the people's Pope, the young people's Pope, and so it was very much. I was just coming of age, as Bishop Barron always talks about. I was coming of age with the Pope Francis, with Pope John Paul II, but it's a bit like. It's a bit like kids who grow up and realise you know, mummy and daddy, you know, were, yeah, and so there's a bit of that now and that's a shame, but I think, but because there are problems and to pretend there weren't is disingenuous, but that would probably be the case if we were able to look through the centuries, from St Peter I mean, st Peter wasn't chosen for no reason.

Speaker 2: 1:00:01

You know, this is, this is Saint Peter who, you know, you can't help but love, because he's so human, because he's flawed, because he messes up, but what he doesn't do which Judas did, did is is reject that mercy, reject that love, and say I'm, I'm not going to accept it. So he's able to say I messed up. And here I am, and I think we have to not expect, not hold our popes to that level of perfection. So in this very specific situation, under very specific circumstances, there's papal infallibility, but that's not the same. And we know that although I think this is a misperception about the church, that that they are impeccable, impeccability that these guys are perfect, somehow made godlike. So, yeah, it's sad to find out that popes that we respect and love had messed up in some of the ways that that Francis has. But then again, they're, they're, they're men, they're like you and me.

Speaker 1: 1:01:03

We're sinners and if anyone was going to scrutinize us, they, they'd be saying yeah, uh, pope Benedict's uh Jesus of Nazareth series, especially the one on Holy Week, was such an amazing book for me in my conversion. I remember reading that during my reversion, coming back to the church, and it is amazing to see just the stark contrast between the way he handled things and just what we've dealt with for the past 12 years. But, man, I think that the next few weeks are going to be very exciting. I think this is the Catholic. You know it comes around very rarely, but we're coming up on.

Speaker 1: 1:01:53

One of the most exciting events in the life of a Catholic is seeing the election of a new pope. I think this one is going to be different from any other we've ever seen. I think they're in first, in part just because when I saw the video of cardinal um burke and cardinal sarah walking together, yeah, and I saw the response of cardinal zen, what I, what I thought immediately was okay, these men are going to go into this one not nearly as naive as they went into the last one, because after John Paul II and Benedict, I think even the conservative cardinals had this trust in God that, no matter who the Pope is, you're not going to get anything. You'll get something, and they probably didn't know much about Jorge Bergoglio, but on this one going in, I think those conservative bishops are much more aware of the damage that can be caused. So there might be a little more animosity in this council than this conclave than there ever was before.

Speaker 2: 1:02:51

Yeah, I think you're right. And you know, nothing is as Mark was saying yesterday whether we like it or not, whether we found it helpful or not, god had him as our Pope for the past 12 years. We don't know, we can't see. You know the church thinks in centuries. We've got this finite little time to just try our hardest to become saints. You know really.

Speaker 2: 1:03:20

And that's something, again, again, we don't hear often enough uh, that's our telos. Our telos is to become a saint. It's not some weird thing for joan of arc or some freak who who, you know, is not like the rest of us. That's for us, and that's what we have to focus on is our own personal growth, spiritual spiritual growth and our own personal sanctity. So, yeah, you're right, though it's a different time.

Speaker 1: 1:03:46

Yeah, I think this one's going to get a little hectic, so we'll see how it goes. But yeah, you're right about especially that under Francis, as bad as things were and we were constantly worried, are we going to lose our mass? None of us were prevented, in the West at least, from becoming saints. I mean, they dealt with a totally different thing where they're under Islam's tyrannical rule. But for us the complaining was probably the worst thing we did, because it's like accept the cross God gives you.

Speaker 2: 1:04:18

There's nothing wrong with it. I think ambiguity that leads people into sin is something to be called out, not because catherine bennett's such a genius or anthony is such a genius or mark, but because that's we do have a uh, you know, a duty, just, and a responsibility to say what's true. We have to truth. We don't go along with lies, and especially lies that draw people into sin. And so, for example, I was teaching 10 years ago when Pope Francis said who am I to judge? Now, I know it's not that simple.

Speaker 2: 1:04:50

You know people say but they didn't mean this, but this is how it was, this is how it was received by the world. So we then have a duty, because we have young people coming up and saying hey, guess what? In the playground, pope Francis says it's fine to be gay. And you just think, well, what am I going to do? Ignore that? No, we have to. We have to be as lay Catholics, as catechists and as people trying to help form young people. We have to deal with that and we have to say what's true, especially in this age where you know social media and sound so much information just being poured out on people.

Speaker 1: 1:05:25

I think these conversations have been therapeutic for me too. Um, because in my personal life it's not like I'm surrounded in a catholic culture with other catholics, you know. It's like I mean I have my siblings that take the faith. So I mean, out of nine of us, I have eight siblings. Out of nine of us, I have eight siblings. Out of all of us, there's three that go to mass. It's like. So you know, other than my children, my wife and those siblings, I'm not surrounded by Catholics. So getting on and having these conversations with my Catholic friend from England, they're kind of therapeutic for me. They help me to just realize, ok, we're not alone in this guys, there are other people who believe the Catholic faith and are experiencing some of the same hardships as everybody else.

Speaker 2: 1:06:05

Yeah, yeah, and me too. I'm surrounded by people in my own family, my family, are Irish, irish Catholics. Now, anyone who knows anything about Ireland and the path it's going down is that my generation have all fallen. You know, I'm one of 30 something cousins and I think I'm the only practicing Catholic, faithful Catholic, in the whole family. And that's such a tragedy because you know my. I remember my grandmother, my grandfather. They were serious Catholics.

Speaker 2: 1:06:33

My mother, who'd be 90 now she, she died um, loved her faith, loved Christ. Thank God she left me such a great um. You know she was such a good role model but also a great legacy of of her. She wrote a lot and she actually recorded, when she knew she was dying, some, some of her words, and so she's been a great model to me. But but the family at large is just that the faith has been decimated, absolutely decimated, and you kind of think. You kind of think I don't know how we can just point and blame them because they've. You know, it hasn't been easy in ireland ireland is under such a propagandistic assault.

Speaker 1: 1:07:13

It's like you just had that movie come out with the guy from peaky blinders or it was a show or a movie or something talking about how the nuns were abusing the children. They're just trying to destroy whatever remnant of faith is left in that country because Ireland was Catholic Ireland, they were like the last ones to fall with abortion and all these things, and they're just under such assault. Man I, because I'm my mother's irish, my dad's catholic, so it's you know. I mean, it's the same thing. Like you, look at my extended family and you saw this beautiful catholic foundation just get decimated over the past few decades.

Speaker 2: 1:07:55

It's crazy but you know we talked about saints. Listen, god is going to raise up the saints that are needed at this time. It's always been the case. He will raise up the exact saint needed for the particular problems that we are in now, and that saint could be you, that saint could be me. We're all called to that, so our response should be yes. Yes, we have righteous anger, yes, there are things that are confusing, but let's focus on what, because the temptation, of course, is to is to save the world, is to champion environmentalism, is to stop the war, is to have a banner and be an activist. We're not called to be activists, we're called to be faithful, and it's the simple saints and martyrs who are faithful who have that impact. It's not by walking around with a placard and petitioning politicians or whatever.

Speaker 1: 1:08:50

No, it's living out your vocation right. If you're a mother, be a good mother and wife. If you're a father, be a good father and husband. If you're a child, be obedient to your parents. Like, live out your vocation the best you can and, uh, that that really, it really is the way to heaven. It's like I mean marriage especially. I've me and my wife talk about it all the time, just like how you really see, how the sacraments do bring you to heaven, especially in the sacrament of marriage, like you two are getting each other to heaven, whether you, whether you have a intention or not.

Speaker 1: 1:09:24

If it's you, oh, man, we're going to have to do another show because I want to get into your, I want to get into your story about your mom, because it was such a touching story and it led to your reversion, and we're going to have to do another episode. But well, what I'll do is, man, I'm going to have to. Maybe the week that the next pope is elected, I'll take another day off and we'll set something else up again, because there's so much more we could get into. But, catherine, this was amazing. Thank you for being brave, thank you for doing what you do and, man, just keep dealing with the onslaught. Don't let anybody's online comments bother you. It really is nothing. Turn off twitter and you're fine. So I I admire you for your courage. This was this is fun to do thank you, that's really kind.

Speaker 2: 1:10:15

Any courage I have, uh is by god's grace, you know really. So, um, I'm, I'm glad he has me and I I'll do what, you know, whatever he asks of me, whatever that is. And just thank you for your prayers. You've been really you've been really kind, anthony, and really supportive, and I know you've been praying for us and me especially following that.

Speaker 1: 1:10:35

So, um, yeah, I know you're a lot of misogynist anthony, but I hate you folks.

Speaker 1: 1:10:43

There's only a few Catholic shows I watch. You guys are always. Anytime I see something new pop up from you guys, I always watch. It's funny how my taste has changed and I used to enjoy like the one man monologue or the one person monologue and now I just enjoy conversations. I love seeing like people bouncing off of each other. I just find it easier to to listen to and it's not all just everybody saying the same thing and you know, there is a little bit of a differing opinion and so I think you guys are a great combination over there. So give Gavin my best. He's the only one that I did not speak to today and I'll have to set something up with him at another date.

Speaker 2: 1:11:18

Yeah, I'll have to set something up with him at another date.

Speaker 1: 1:11:20

Yeah, I know you've spoken to him before.

Speaker 2: 1:11:21

Oh yeah, I've had him on again. Yeah, that's really kind of you. Thank you, anthony, and I hope you'll come on Catholic Unscripted.

Speaker 1: 1:11:27

We'll try and get that scheduled and try to figure that out. But all right, we'll see you guys. I will see you guys at eight o'clock tonight. If you're not subscribed, go subscribe to Catholic Unscripted Thanks. Thank you.