Breaking Down the George Janko / Voice of Reason Discussion

When does charitable dialogue cross the line into religious indifferentism? This passionate emergency broadcast dives into a controversial recent exchange between Catholic apologist Voice of Reason and Protestant influencer George Janko, sparking a deeper conversation about effective Catholic apologetics in the modern era.

Anthony, visibly frustrated after watching the entire interview, questions whether Voice of Reason's gentle, affirming approach with Janko accurately represented Catholic teaching on crucial doctrines like "No Salvation Outside the Church" and the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The stream features clips from the original conversation, with Anthony highlighting moments where he believes clarity was sacrificed for congeniality.

Nick joins to provide more measured analysis, explaining the nuances of invincible ignorance and offering a more charitable take on Voice of Reason's intentions, while still acknowledging problems with the presentation. Their conversation evolves into a fascinating examination of apologetic approaches—whether to prioritize relationship-building or doctrinal clarity, particularly in public forums with potentially millions of viewers.

The episode touches on deeper questions about Catholic-Protestant dialogue: Is modern ecumenism becoming too accommodating? Can tough theological discussions happen without alienating non-Catholics? When should apologists draw hard lines rather than build bridges? As the conversation progresses, Anthony reflects on his own harsh initial reaction, showcasing the genuine passion and concern traditional Catholics have for preserving doctrinal integrity.

Watch as two articulate Catholic voices work through this controversial topic with honesty, humor, and ultimately a shared commitment to both truth and charity. Whether you're interested in apologetics, interfaith dialogue, or Catholic theology, this unfiltered discussion offers valuable insights into communicating faith in our polarized world.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

Sancte, sancte, amare morti necranas nos. Yeah, emergency broadcast. Somebody said, ooh, friday afternoon stream, what a treat. Yeah, you know what. I got home a little early today and I asked Nick if he'd jump on with me and I tried to sit through the George Janko and Voice of Reason podcast and I sat through the whole thing. I watched it all Because I kept hoping that Voice of reason was going to redeem himself. Now the thing is, the way I found out about this thing was because I saw a Ruslan clip and Ruslan comes on and he's like I told you all Catholics, you had to wait for voice of reason. This was a masterclass in how you have conversations with people. It was a masterclass in how you have conversations with people. It was a masterclass.

Speaker 1: 1:26

and how you got this is like true brotherly love and now they're friends and they went to dinner together and it's like cool, now I'm gonna start, I'm I'm gonna be very critical of this, because I'm not sure if these guys are doing this kind of stuff because they just want to be social media stars or just raise their profile. So it's like, oh, I'm going on with George Janko. George Janko has 3 million subscribers, so I'm going to go on there and literally let George control the conversation, not say anything remotely challenging, give the impression that I don't know if he's coming, give the impression that there's the true presence is in the Protestant communion. Give the impression that no salvation outside the church literally covers Protestants for everything. Like it was just I was waiting for it. Like he said a few decent things, though here's what I'll say I understand when you're talking to some people. You got to meet them where they're at.

Speaker 1: 2:24

I think if he did that exact conversation in private, it would have been totally fine. There's going to be millions of people that watch this episode and I think it was an embarrassment. I think it was an embarrassment the way he handled it. How much did you watch?

Speaker 4: 2:42

I have only seen for the audience, just to be transparent, I've only seen two sections. One was the discussion about no Salvation Outside the Church and the other was just one of the mini clips about the Eucharist. I actually I'll be kind of contrary of my normal self I'm typically, when I watched the no salvation outside the church thing, I thought that everything he said um, none of it, I would say is per se an error. I don't think you didn't say anything correct, it was more. So I would giving the impression it was more of an impression. Um, that's why I kind of today, if we do about it, I hope we actually have kind of a conversation, a robust conversation, about no salvation outside of the church, because I think it's a doctrine that a lot of Catholics, including trads, don't fully understand, and so hopefully we'll be able to get into it and I can kind of work a little bit of scholastic magic, if you will, and help everybody out.

Speaker 1: 3:42

Yeah, listen, I just I went and it's like so Sam Shamoon went originally and apparently Sam was mean. So they send in voice of reason. A voice of reason goes in and he's so nice, like, so nice. I love you brother. I just want you to know, I love you brother, I love you brother, I love you brother, I love you brother, agreeing with everything George is saying, affirming him in every retarded thing he says. George is like the dumbest things he says and I'll agree with you 100% on that. And then, like I'm not trying to be mean to voice of reason, I like the guy.

Speaker 1: 4:18

I think he did good when he was on Ruslan, but this was literally embarrassing to watch. Like I could not sit through it and I'm furious about it. I don't know why. Maybe I'm in a bad mood, maybe I'm being too harsh. This was atrocious to sit through. Like, maybe it's because of all the ecumenism crap. I'm just so done with it.

Speaker 1: 4:38

I don't see the point in these conversations anymore, matt Fradd, having all these Protestants come on for what? Nobody challenges anybody to anything. It's like, well, let's just not say anything. Let's not say anything to challenge each other whatsoever. Let's just talk about what we agree on and then, even when the person says something completely ridiculous, let me just say I affirm you in that, brother. I don't get the point of these conversations. Is it just to make your profile raise? Like, do you guys just want to be famous? Is that what it is? Oh, maybe I could get some of George's audience, maybe I could get some of Ruslan's audience. Like, if you're going to compromise what you know to be true to get some freaking followers, you're a disgusting person. I'm just like done with all of it. I don't know. Yes, I am hangry, it's Friday. I haven't know. Yes, I am hangry, it's Friday. I haven't eaten. My wife thinks we're doing a 36 hour fast and I want to kill her right now.

Speaker 4: 5:28

Yeah, let's definitely not do a 36 hour fast, if need I. Yeah, maybe it is just you Cause it's like I'm not, honestly, as I would agree with you in the sense that, uh, I did think it was maybe a bit emotional, but, um, overall I would say, yeah, I don't want to presume what his hearts or his intentions are. I don't think he had a bad heart or intention though, nick I'm not presuming any of that.

Speaker 1: 5:49

It's not like yeah, that's why I'm just like, let me just go in and be the nicest guy ever and everybody's gonna love me because I'm so charitable. I'm just so charitable. It's like so reasonable, so charitable. Shut up, stupid, tell the truth there. He's like it's like no, we're all just part of the body of Christ. No, we're not. You have to say things that are hard to say sometimes. I just don't get it. Listen, I'm having a bad day. I'm not even. I just really got frustrated watching this. Like really frustrated watching this. Yes, if this is Calumy, I apologize, like I'm not trying to insult Voice of Reason and I was a little out of hand there, but it's just. I don't understand the point in these conversations. All you did was confuse people.

Speaker 4: 6:36

Well, yeah, I mean I would say again the substance of what he was saying no-transcript give as much I try to do the principle of our lore where it's you know, do unto others as you would have them do to you. And so this is why I'm not going to presume like what his intentions are. Maybe we can, of course, critique, maybe you know, hey, man, it came off a little bit um lovey-dovey washy and lovey-dovey.

Speaker 1: 7:08

Dude, you know what this was. It was a conversation for women. It was a conversation for women. That's what it was. It's like a feminine conversation, like men who are afraid to say things that much. Like george, you're feeling so sensitive that you can't handle being criticized and saying no, no, you're wrong about this, like you, like he did not at one at any point, that he say no, george, you're wrong. Or like George every two seconds, george, I just feel I feel well when I read it. I feel that you know, I feel it's like who cares what you feel, is it true? Like I don't care what you feel, is it true? And it's like who cares what you feel, is it true? Like I don't care what you feel, is it true? And it's like great, now they're best friends.

Speaker 1: 7:48

That would have been, like I said, if this was a private conversation. It's a very different situation, very different situation. You got to meet somebody where they're at. It's a private conversation. You want to be their friend. You want to let them know that they can come to you if they have questions, things like that. You don't present that to millions of people, though. You just don't. That's not. You can't present that wishy-washy garbage to millions of people.

Speaker 4: 8:15

It was embarrassing yeah, I don't know. I mean, I guess you and I just have somewhat of a difference of opinion on it because Cause it's like well, I, I would, I would agree with you in the in the vein of like I do think he should have pressed more so hard on it. No, we're playing clips.

Speaker 1: 8:31

No, stop being Mr Charitable. It's annoying me to stop it.

Speaker 4: 8:38

Call me out if I'm wrong. I know, no. No, I'm literally just trying to be like all right. Well, when I watched it, I had criticisms of it, but I wouldn't say it's like the end of the world either. You know what I'm saying. It's like I had my criticisms of it, but it was just like you know. Yeah, maybe not the world's greatest, but, to be fair, how many times have we all stuck our foot in our mouth.

Speaker 1: 9:02

We're just gay Watch. No, we're just gay watch, we're gonna play a clip, you guys are crazy. I don't know, maybe I'm crazy. It just to me was like, why have this conversation in public? It was just so let's get into it. You guys want to hear, let's hear it. If you guys haven't seen it yet, let's hear it.

Speaker 3: 9:26

Yeah. So this is. I'll give you the full picture of what the church teaches on this, which is what Scripture teaches, right? So we know that there is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ. We know that to be united to Jesus Christ, being united to him, makes us part of his church. We're part of his mystical body.

Speaker 3: 9:44

Now the question is this, this this is the big question that all traditions that we ask each other about salvation and the church, because we have all of these different communions, like you brought up, we have catholic, eastern, orthodox, oriental orthodox, assyrian, church of the east. We have all of the different protestant denominations. So the question is okay, is any one of these denominations if you want to call them all denominations or any one of these expressions or churches? Is any one of these denominations if you want to call them all denominations, or any one of these expressions or churches? Is any one of them essential? That's the question, right? So the Catholic Church teaches this, because we know that there's no salvation apart from Jesus Christ, and to be united to Jesus Christ, that means you're part of His church. So what that means is that if you are saved, that means that you're part of His church. Amen.

Speaker 1: 10:29

Now the is that if you are saved, that means that you're part of this church. Amen. Now the question is this.

Speaker 3: 10:30

What that means is that there is no salvation apart from the church of jesus christ. Good job, there is no salvation apart from jesus christ church. Now, this is the question. This is the crux of the question. The question is how do you know if you're truly part of the church of jesus christ? And what the church says is that you know if you're a visible member of the church, so we can identify the visible members of the church of Jesus Christ. However, it's also possible that there could be invisible members of the church of Jesus Christ, and the invisible members of the church of Jesus Christ are those who, through no fault of their own, are not part of the visible institution of the church.

Speaker 2: 11:05

Who are who would be considered the invisible? And, if you don't mind me asking, is there a scripture that bases this information that you have of like the invisible and the visible?

Speaker 3: 11:15

Sure, yeah. So, for example, like when you go to like Mark nine, right, if you go to Mark, chapter nine, you hear the famous story of Jesus and his apostles his apostles, as apostles are performing exorcisms and one also say hey, there's all these people over here that are also performing exorcisms pause it every so often, so we don't get a copyright um so far.

Speaker 1: 11:35

So far it's okay. Yeah, you're gonna see what I'm you're gonna see what I'm talking about but they don't follow us yeah and jesus says you know.

Speaker 3: 11:44

Jesus basically says you know, you know. Jesus basically says you know, you know they're, they're for us, they're on our side.

Speaker 2: 11:48

If they're not against us, they're with us, or something like that Right? Yeah, If they're not if they're not, yeah, I get that.

Speaker 2: 11:52

Yeah, but okay so then, um, okay so, hypothetically, the catholic catholicism is not right, hypothetical, I don't mean to be disrespectful right, but in their hearts, of hearts, they are worshiping god and they are truly, truly after christ. And then, hypothetically, now they're all right, and then the people that I'm standing with are not right, so in this context, but they're full-heartedly. You see that the fruits are growing, you see that they're chasing god. You see that you say you will know them by their fruits. So when you meet, like, for example, you, I know you have fruits, but in fact, with my sister, I know you're both just through the phone.

Speaker 1: 12:30

I wanted to give him a hug, you when people meet somebody who's crying this was what they did to sam. Right, this is what this is what he did to sam. Sam went in and was like a little bit firm and he's like I don't. I don't feel the holy spirit coming from you like, for if this is not christianity, it's not about. Like, if you go back and you look at how the early christians talked, like it's not this, I'm just like, it's not just about being nice guys and it's it's all about feelings. So it's like you have to get away from the feelings conversation with a guy like george and get to the substance of what is the truth.

Speaker 2: 13:03

So this is where it starts getting a little bit it's like you could tell, because they're christ-like and their fruits are there I need your prayers, man.

Speaker 3: 13:09

I need you to pray for me, because that's something that we're all working on. Man, and shout out to your sister man, your sister's amazing too, so sweet. You know the accommodations that you guys set up for us, amazing you you guys are your sisters is a sweetheart man, and so are you. You're a sweetheart, um, so so, yeah. So, going back to to what the church, uh, would say is that, uh, you can know that you're part of the church if you're a visible member of the church, but that doesn't mean that, if you're not a visible member of the church, that you're not an invisible member of the church.

Speaker 3: 13:41

Because, like you said, what we find in all of the different traditions, we find christians that are sincerely, truly honestly, trying to follow jesus christ to the best of their ability, according to what they have, what they know, what they understand.

Speaker 3: 13:57

And the beautiful thing about the god that we follow, the beautiful thing about our lord jesus christ, is that we know that his grace, his mercy and his love is bigger than our own fallibility, because we can be fallible and we can get things wrong. We can misunderstand things, we can even misunderstand the scriptures. We can misunderstand all of these things, we can have it totally wrong, but because we're sincere, because we're sincere and we're honestly really trying, what that means is that God is not going to judge us for something that isn't our fault. So let's say that the Assyrian Church of the East is the true church of Jesus Christ. Shut up, right, I'm not part of the Assyrian Church of the East. You're currently, at this moment, not part of the Assyrian Church of the East 're currently, at this moment, not part of the assyrian church of the east.

Speaker 2: 14:46

My heart, my family.

Speaker 3: 14:47

Right, your family, dude, when I close my eyes and I see a church.

Speaker 2: 14:49

That's the church I see, right? Uh, I just have questions and, um, I deeply upset at them by by the frame and I pray that one day I could walk back in there and it's cool so he's.

Speaker 1: 15:03

this is him getting into invincible ignorance. Now he's giving, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 4: 15:09

I was just one clarifying question. Does he give a further final answer to that?

Speaker 1: 15:15

Yes, the longer he continues, the more he kind of doubles down on. If we're following the Lord and we're sincere, we can't be judged if we're following sincere. That is not what invincible ignorance is. That's not what invincible ignorance covers. Invincible ignorance is people that have never heard the gospel and doing everything they can to live according to their natural virtue, to live a good life. But it's not the stubborn Protestant who is not willing to hear the truth. That is not what invincible ignorance covers. Nick, what did you say? You had a whole thing about invincible ignorance.

Speaker 4: 16:01

Yeah, I can, if you want, send me your email to the private chat and I'll just email it to you real quick. I have a short four-page lecture that I gave about this discussion about what is the church's traditional teaching when it comes to no salvation outside the church, because I feel like this issue has become very it's devolved into just kind of weird explanations from a whole plethora of various individuals and unfortunately, I don't think that they all really know the subject matter very well. So, that being the case, yeah, I thought it might be a decent idea to define these because, honestly, it's like when you're discussing invisible ignorance, I would agree. It's like invisible ignorance is not going to be for individuals who know the church, deny the church's teachings, etc. That's not the context that it's in, and so, yeah, that's why I was saying the impression that's given seems to be taking invisible ignorance outside of its context this is what I mean, and and people are using it to to make Protestants think that Catholics believe.

Speaker 1: 17:11

You know, as long as you're following the Lord the best you can, you're okay. And it takes away the urgency of spreading the gospel Because it's like, well, no, well, they're doing their best to follow the Lord. No, they are unwilling their best to follow the lord. No, they're they're. They are unwilling to listen to the truth. So, like soft peddling, it does absolutely nothing. I'm gonna pull up the next clip I got um, let me go for it let me say hang on hang on.

Speaker 1: 17:47

This right here is just embarrassing. Hang on, let's see, I was a little slower than rob guys forgive me he'll know that you're an idiot.

Speaker 2: 18:04

A lot of people know that you're an idiot. We're idiots.

Speaker 3: 18:06

A lot of people know that I'm an idiot most people know that I'm an idiot um I prove it to them every time, open my mouth.

Speaker 3: 18:11

But because the lord can see if the lord sees our hearts and if the lord because the lord is judged, we can't judge ourselves I would hope and pray that when I die, let's say I'm wrong, let's say catholicism is false and I'm wrong. My hope and my prayer would be that when I die and I meet God, that God knows that I was sincere and that I was really honestly trying to follow him, as best you know, according to what I knew, what I believe, what I understood, and that I wasn't doing anything despite him, that I was really sincerely trying to follow him. That he would judge me as being invincibly ignorant, meaning that it's not totally my fault that I didn't score 100 on the theological exam. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 18:56

Yeah, it's good that we try right.

Speaker 3: 18:59

And God can judge you as being invincibly ignorant, meaning that if you're not part of the visible institution of the church and you're not culpable, it's not your fault. What that means, according to what the Catholic Church teaches, is that you would have actually been an invisible member of the Church of Jesus Christ. And if you're an invisible member of the Church of Jesus Christ, what that would mean is that, even though during your lifetime you were not united to the visible institution of the church whatever whichever that church may be you were an invisible member of whatever that church may be. So you died and you were saved by jesus christ through the church, and you'll get to be with him, part of his mystical body, for all the eternity in heaven like I don't.

Speaker 1: 19:41

I don't understand the point of this conversation. Like, like, george is asking a question do I need to be catholic to be saved? And he goes through this long explanation of well, if you're following the lord, you know you don't. You don't have to be catholic. Like what, what, why, why do this?

Speaker 4: 20:03

yeah, it seems that he doesn't just give them a definitive yes, you should be Catholic. Because, again, like when the theologians are talking about invisible ignorance, they're talking about it in some very detailed context and they're not going to be talking about it when there's a Protestant per se. Of course, a Protestant can be saved through invisible ignorance, but that's a hypothetical. It's not going to be someone who knows. It's a complete hypothetical.

Speaker 1: 20:26

Listen to me, some people are not cut out for these conversations, right? So you have to know in yourself are you cut out to be? Because it gets a little dicey sometimes. You're going look like I said, if this was a private conversation it would be very different. Like I understand what he's trying to do here, he's speaking to George as if there's not a camera on, though, like George isn't the only person he needs to be concerned with.

Speaker 1: 20:50

There's a. There's going to be over a million views on this video, so you can't give this impression to a million people. It is dangerous. I'm not saying it's heretical, I'm not saying like you, you need to prepare yourself to say some difficult things and george is an emotional guy and he may get a little upset with you and your and your episode may not air like you have to be willing to go in and say my episode's not going to air because george threw a fit because he couldn't answer some questions. This conversation ends up getting getting into the eucharist and stuff and and voice of Reason gives—I know what he was doing. He was trying to show from Scripture that the true presence is in the Eucharist, but he's also giving the impression that that real, true presence is in every communion, regardless of which church it's in.

Speaker 4: 21:42

Yeah, that wouldn't be correct, if that's the impression that it's given.

Speaker 1: 21:47

We'll finish going through it. It's just, I was so frustrated at this whole entire thing and I saw Ruslan's like this is a masterclass and how you speak to each other and it's like brothers in Christ coming together and now they'll talk again and it's like that's cool if it it's private, but you can't do this publicly like this, like I. Just I don't. Maybe I'm overreacting, maybe I'm hungry because I haven't eaten. It's friday, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 22:15

I had a very difficult time watching this, though because god counted you as a member of his church. God counted me as a member of his church even though I'm an idiot and I, you know, I was thinking it's over here, but it's really over here. God counted me as a member of his church. God counted me as a member of his church even though I'm an idiot and I, you know, I was thinking it's over here, but it's really over here. God counted me as a member of his church because he counted me as being invincibly ignorant, meaning it wasn't my fault that I didn't get everything figured out myself and he had mercy on me and he had a grace because he sees the heart, you know, and like oh that one drives me nuts.

Speaker 1: 22:43

God sees the heart. Yeah, god does see the heart, guys. I don't think any of us see our own hearts and our own motivations and our own desires. When people misuse that phrase God sees the heart, they get the impression that as long as you have good intentions, then God's going to just overlook whatever mistakes you made. No, god sees the actual motivations of your actions. Like Alex, are you trying to just be nice because you actually care about Georgia's soul, or are you just really wanting to raise your social media profile? I don't know.

Speaker 3: 23:16

I have no idea what your motivations are, but the way this conversation was handled it just seems like you weren't willing to offend the person you were talking to is how it came off if you read john 15, 22, jesus says you know, you know, talking to his enemies, he says you know, if I had not came you would have an excuse for your sin, but now that I'm here, you no longer have an excuse. You know, um, and we also read. You know, like in, you know, in the writings of paul, like if you read romans, if you read the bes in Romans 1 and Romans 2, you know Paul says that God judges. God judges us according to whatever it was that we did have, that we thought was the truth that we found.

Speaker 1: 23:57

If I had not come, then you would not. What did he say? It was.

Speaker 4: 24:02

Well, if he's quoting from John it that if, uh, you had what? How does it go? It's they're. They're accusing him of essentially being a false messiah and he talks about how that they will be lost in their sins.

Speaker 1: 24:27

Because if you knew that I a church that claims to be the true church, you should investigate those claims. Because if you give the impression that those outside of that church can be saved, you're not putting any sense of urgency on people to actually investigate the claims of the church.

Speaker 3: 24:45

Follow to the best of our ability, Not that those things you know, like he's taught, because in his letter to the Romans he's talking.

Speaker 1: 24:53

Yeah, this is this. Just continues on like this. Let's, let's see, we got one more. I mean, I didn't, I didn't know how much to.

Speaker 2: 24:59

I have five more clips that we can go, but also apply up all the way from the kids the deck from the Passover Uh.

Speaker 1: 25:06

so this is they get into the universe here I'll just.

Speaker 2: 25:09

I can break down other things, but all these are a foreshadow.

Speaker 4: 25:11

They're describing what Jesus is going to set up.

Speaker 2: 25:15

I still see it as a remembrance because, at the end of the day, the way that you guys are explaining it is that I have to participate in it when my God said my works are meaningless. So you guys are explaining it is that I have to participate in it when my God said my works are meaningless. So for me to say I have to participate with him, that means I'm adding my works to the table that he already said it's finished and he did for me and it's a gift. And many times he said it's not your works. So when I sit here and I say okay, well, then remembrance would make a lot of sense, because then I'm saying I'm not doing anything here, I'm just remembering what you did. So when they're saying no, no, no, no, no, you have to participate or you're doing it wrong.

Speaker 2: 25:52

And then just to even tack what you said, when you said you must eat and drink, I do believe you must eat and drink, but in the symbolic way of like. I must meditate on the word. I must eat it but also apply it to my life. I must drink his blood, I must apply it. When somebody's doing something wrong to me, I gotta turn my other cheek, because I'm not just taking his words and spitting out of my mouth. I'm taking, I'm digesting it. I'm actually moving along with it right so?

Speaker 3: 26:15

so let me ask you this question no, when? When you?

Speaker 1: 26:18

I gotta ask you that I gotta know what you think.

Speaker 3: 26:20

I gotta ask questions too and when he says the flesh. So when you receive, when you receive what god has to give you are we talking about the Eucharist or are you talking? About what you just said about receiving his word yes. When you receive his word and you apply his word yes, is that not a work?

Speaker 2: 26:38

No, absolutely.

Speaker 3: 26:38

It's not a work.

Speaker 2: 26:39

Absolutely not.

Speaker 3: 26:40

I'll tell you why, how I'm having this conversation Bro you're a wise man. Thank you, I am not nearly.

Speaker 2: 26:46

No, no conversation, bro you're a wise man.

Speaker 3: 26:47

Thank you, I am not nearly, no, no I am not nearly as wise as you I believe that the spirit pours into me for me to be able to speak properly.

Speaker 2: 26:50

It is not of mine right same here, bro.

Speaker 3: 26:52

So so right there, I'm telling you no right wisdom that I possess.

Speaker 2: 26:56

It is not of me. Every time, brother, I think it is. He takes it from me like the time. I god forbid I use the word dirt. That wasn't his doing. That was me being egotistical, a dummy, and I stepped out and guess what my wisdom came out with all of us.

Speaker 3: 27:10

That was all of so. In the same way, when I ask you that you know when we receive and we apply yeah, and you say that's not a work, perfect I agree with you. It's not a work.

Speaker 2: 27:18

In the same way, when we receive, yeah right receiving is not work and we discern it's not a work but no, no, but you're saying you have to do the acts, I have to show up every sunday, I have to receive the body, I have to see it as it's actually his body, and that's a lot of work right.

Speaker 3: 27:33

So what I would say is that that those are actually the words of our lord himself, because he said unless you do this, here's what I don't get when, when, because I've seen this conversation so many times.

Speaker 1: 27:43

It's like the Eucharist is not the work of man. It's like like even getting into what works are. It's like what are you like? Why are you not challenging him on this stuff?

Speaker 4: 27:57

Well, in a way, I think.

Speaker 4: 27:59

In a way I think he is, because he says, like he asked the question is this not a work? I mean, it's just basically the same thing of where you can ask a Protestant is not the ascent of faith still you choosing to do some form of action? And this is why I would say that probably, outside of kind of maybe a little bit too much of the bro talk that's a little awkward, outside of that, I would say, his voice of reasons, perspective, I would say, is fairly reasonable, like he's just asking. Reasonable, he's just asking and he's asking in a very simple way. Our Lord says unless you do this, you shall not inherit the kingdom of God, and we both agree that Christ justifies us by his grace through his death. Then, therefore, why don't you do this? I think what it is is that he's trying to get George to see that the notion of good works that historic Protestantism has criticized is not what the Catholic Church is referring to when it comes to just receiving the grace that is attached to the sacraments.

Speaker 1: 28:59

Okay, what gets me frustrated? I'm hoping it comes up.

Speaker 2: 29:04

If you don't eat and you don't drink, you have no life in you right, okay, hypothetically, you don't get to have the body and blood of Christ the Eucharist.

Speaker 3: 29:11

Right, right, right. So are you cooked Right? So if I don't get to have it, the question is why don't I get to have it?

Speaker 2: 29:19

Is it because I'm not able to receive it. Yeah, you don't want it, just truly you can't receive it.

Speaker 3: 29:23

Right, so because again? So this goes back to what we said at the beginning about God having mercy on us. It's through our cult. Yeah, this wasn't a particular If I don't receive the Eucharist and it's not my fault that I'm not receiving the Eucharist. When I die and God judges me, god is going to say sorry, brother, you didn't go to the church, you didn't receive it.

Speaker 2: 29:44

And I appreciate that point of view, but if I'm not, culpable for it.

Speaker 3: 29:47

if I'm not culpable for it, then God will have grace and mercy on me, because it wasn't my fault that I didn't receive it, but that's not invincible ignorance either?

Speaker 1: 29:56

No, it's too. It's not invincible ignorance.

Speaker 4: 29:59

Well, no, no, no. But I think he's dividing into two subjects what he's saying is correct. It's fundamentally like St Thomas brings this up in his Summa. He asks the question is the Eucharist absolutely necessary for salvation? And of course you can define what absolutely necessary means. But the answer to that is no, because, strictly speaking, in the most strict sense, by necessity of means and by necessity of precept, baptism is what saves and or the desire they're with, but the Eucharist? It of course is necessary for the adult convert to go throughout life, but in the strictest sense, no. And so I think what he's saying is that, like, yeah, if, uh, if I am withheld from the eucharist because of personal sin, right, that's why he was saying something on me that I'm in trouble, you're not culpable if it's out of your control.

Speaker 4: 30:46

Yeah, and if you are culpable it's not, which is correct.

Speaker 4: 30:49

But likewise also he's not wrong that you can take this question and actually apply it to the context of invincible ignorance, because if someone legitimately is invincibly ignorant and does not know about the Eucharist, then of course God is not going to culpably condemn them for not knowing about the Eucharist. So scott is not going to culpably, uh, condemn them for not knowing about the eucharist. So, yeah, I would say it's all correct. I mean again, my, my, I would just say my only criticism at least of this clip is just maybe a little bit of the, uh, the, the bro bro talk yeah, listen, like I said, alex doesn't say anything heretical or wrong.

Speaker 1: 31:19

That's not what I'm criticizing. It's not like he taught something in error. My, my problem is the the lack of challenging george in anything, and there's a bunch of times where he just overly affirms george in his in his like wrong interpretation yeah, the, the brothers in christ stuff I would be a little bit wary of.

Speaker 4: 31:42

I can't. I can't, of course, appreciate some of the pushback that at least I saw where it was. He was like trying to define. What do you mean by? That it is a physical, but um then a little bit too much bro-ness for for my personal taste well, that okay, so let's.

Speaker 1: 31:54

I don't know what clip this is. I just sent it.

Speaker 2: 31:57

Let me just see I have to say that he was lying, that we do have to do works to get to heaven no, no, not at all.

Speaker 3: 32:04

remember, you've already said receiving. When you receive something, that's not a work, you just receive it. But receiving the Eucharist.

Speaker 2: 32:10

Seeing it the way it is, and, by the way, you have to take steps to get the Eucharist. By the way, you can't just go and take the Eucharist, Like I cannot bring my friend who's not baptized, or anybody to come and grab the Eucharist. They won no disrespect. There's some Catholic churches that won't let people with flip-flops or shorts go into their church and you're like no, you have to dress appropriately.

Speaker 2: 32:29

But, see, what I'm seeing is there's a lot of works barricading the way to Jesus Christ, when Jesus even said don't dress like that, dress down so that even the poor could come, and then also that your works are not valid and that so no man could boast. So when I see it as a remembrance, there's no works involved, it's all his works that I'm remembering and celebrating.

Speaker 2: 32:49

I do agree when I say that the way they come to the Eucharist is very disrespectful. They lower it down and I think if Paul was here today he would write a letter to them and saying hey guys, you guys are treating this like it's a little graham cracker and some juice, and I'm not down with that. And I also am not down with that. But again, I think he would write a letter to the Catholics and be like guys, jesus Christ is not bread and wine. It was a symbolic thing he was showing you what he's going to do.

Speaker 3: 33:13

So that's right here where you said your words. I agree with you 100% that Jesus Christ is not bread and wine, and that's actually the point, because the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist it turns into. Okay, could you show me?

Speaker 2: 33:25

one thing in the Bible that God did that we had to be like no, no, that cup is something else. Do you get what I'm saying? Like when he heals a blind, the guy's not like I think I could see. He's like no, I could see. And we could all see that it's happening when he was walking on water. It wasn't like is he walking on water? No, no, no, that I have to pretend that this is his body and his blood.

Speaker 3: 33:50

Uh, it's not pretending that his body is, but it is bread, the the question. So the question is because it's not about us, it's not about, um, it's not about, or. Again, that's why he said the words I'm speaking, you are spirit and truth in the flesh is of no avail. It's not about how we understand it. It's about are the words of is jesus, uh, faithful in his promises?

Speaker 2: 34:05

yeah.

Speaker 3: 34:05

And the words of Jesus, what he said, again going back to the Last Supper and then going back to John 6. But also.

Speaker 2: 34:12

You keep quoting, John, but I keep explaining to you that it's forbidden to eat flesh and blood through. Moses and on top of that, he clarifies that the reason they got upset is because he's claiming he's God. So these references that you're giving me, I think we're having like a different opinion on what that was happening in that moment. He wasn't saying that I'm going to be like turning this into, I'm going to be turning this. He's basically saying that he is God and through Jesus you could have eternal life.

Speaker 2: 34:39

That's why they were like this guy. He's claiming that he's the bread that came down from heaven. That's what they were walking away from Claiming that he's the bread that came down from heaven, right?

Speaker 3: 34:46

That's what they were walking away from, right, and what I would say is that Jesus was actually, but Jesus claimed to be God even before John 6. So he was claiming these things and they followed him, right? Okay?

Speaker 1: 34:56

So this is why I think Sam Shamoon went the route he did with George, where it's like, okay, can we get to authority, because that's the only thing that's going to work with George, because everything else is going to just be well. I feel and I read this this way and I feel this and I feel this, the whole thing was just so frustrating to watch George walk all over, because I know Voice of Reason knows this stuff and I know what. Like because I know voice of reason knows this stuff and I know what, like I know that he knows the right thing to say to a typical person that he would speak to that's actually open to hearing the truth. But George is not open to hearing this stuff. So the stuff he's saying is just like just going right over George's head. So he should be. Look, I'm I'm criticizing his approach now, but I just I saw no point in this whole conversation, dude. It was just like I don't get it.

Speaker 4: 35:51

Yeah, I would have probably started with authority first, because I think that if you can even devote an entire discussion to that, you'll be able to flesh out other questions, because otherwise, yeah, it is going to be kind of my opinion versus your opinion. Maybe opinion is not the word, it's my church's teaching versus your church no, because george doesn't even like that's.

Speaker 1: 36:10

That's what was, because throughout this whole thing it was just like it was just super frustrating to watch I don't know, I came on very harsh. It was just I don't understand the dialogue. For the sake of dialogue thing, like I, I don't, I don't get it. Yeah, for the sake of dialogue thing, like I don't, I don't get it yeah. I'm really frustrated with the whole ecumenism thing and the dialogue for the sake of dialogue and not actually like like just putting your foot down and saying, oh George, you're not listening to me.

Speaker 4: 36:41

Yeah, I would say I mean so I would agree in dialogue for the sake of dialogue is wrong.

Speaker 4: 36:46

I think ecumenism, of course, is erroneous and it's something that's wrong.

Speaker 4: 36:50

All I can do is say, you know, I don't know what voice of reasons and tensions are, and so I'll at least presume the best, which is that he wants George to come into the Catholic church where the fullness of truth is, and so that's why he's going on and maybe he's behaving in the manner that he is, and all we can do ultimately is pray for George that he does have those experiences with our Lord and with our Lady that can lead him to a deeper understanding of Christ, and that's why I guess I'm a bit more mild-mannered about it, just because, again, the way I see it is, I probably wouldn't have gone through that discussion in that form.

Speaker 4: 37:28

But I don't think anything that Voice of Reason said was wrong. It was just two things really, some impressions that were kind of given. I would have added a lot more nuance in there, but that's just kind of how scholastics are, and then I probably wouldn't have done kind of the bro talk. It does kind of give it's got a little weird, it's a little weird and shake hands, be respectful, um, but have a good discussion so ruslan's in here?

Speaker 1: 37:52

no, that's not what I'm saying, ruslan. It's not about dominating the conversation. It was like um, it's more like he was afraid to offend George at all costs, right, and it's like listen, I look like I. I honestly, when you had, when you had voice a reason on, I thought that was a great conversation. I think you challenged him on some things. That conversation is productive.

Speaker 1: 38:23

I think what George needs in his conversations with Catholics right now is to have these in private, like they shouldn't be in front of people, because anybody that kind of puts any kind of pressure on him, he goes back into feelings and he's not actually listening to the person talk. And Sam went in and tried to just get down to the issue of authority Like where do you even say you're getting the scripture from? Down to the issue of authority, like where do you even say you're getting the scripture from. And it wound up turning into a heated thing because george gets very he I I think he might be too new at this to be having these conversations in public. I mean, that's just my opinion. It's like it's frustrating, um, to watch conversations that don't go anywhere and I think, like the the love fest that went on, it's like it's cool.

Speaker 4: 39:07

But like, come on man, like it was just a frustrating conversation to watch I I'm I'm legitimately not saying this to to get on any type of show but ruslan. If you want for me to, if you want, I can have a private conversation with uh, with george, on that subject of authority and try to give out a more kind of like traditional scholastic approach to the said discussion. If you want, I'd be more than happy to. Just because, again, I think that the way I'm looking at the situation is, it's more from. I think Voice of Reason did a good job overall. I would just maybe be critical of some of the ways of like how he was presenting himself, because I do think that it kind of lends to what we would call an indifferentism.

Speaker 1: 39:48

There's no way this is really voice, a reason of theology. There's no chance.

Speaker 4: 39:53

No, it's the Michael Lofton show now.

Speaker 1: 39:56

So there's no chance. That's actually Michael Lofton. He would never be in our chat. Look, I know, look I'm. I'm in a cranky. Today I'm fasting.

Speaker 1: 40:05

I watched this conversation and I was screaming at my stupid uh screen the whole time. So I came on and it's just frustrating, like I I understand why it kind of probably went south with sam, because I see, I see george and he's what. What I didn't like was that it gave off the impression, look, like I said, voice of Reason did not say anything like heretical. He didn't say anything. That wasn't true, but he gave the impression that the Catholic Church teaches anybody who's not Catholic, as long as they're following their heart, will go to heaven. That was my frustration. And the other frustration I had was it was implied he didn't say it. It was implied that the, the truth, like the real presence of Christ, is in anybody celebrating communion. Now, he tried to straighten that up at the end but George cut him off. So at the end he started saying like he did start talking to him about okay, so if me and you just sit down and me and you try to consecrate this bread and wine, like, is that the same thing? And then he did try to get into.

Speaker 1: 41:14

The problem was he was trying to discuss very deep theological issues with George that George is not ready to understand. So he tried explaining to George that in the upper room, tried explaining to George that in the upper room Jesus was actually ordaining the 12 apostles. When he washes their feet right Now, that's true, like that is what is happening in the upper room, jesus is ordaining them. But then he also tried, when explaining the Eucharist, he tried going through Scott Hahn's fourth cup thesis, which is like okay, so Jesus pauses at the third cup and he says I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until I drink it new in my kingdom. And as he's trying to explain it, george just goes and talks over him and voice of reason then affirms everything he just said, but no, there's something very important about what's happening there. I just think it was too lofty of a theological topic for him to discuss with George. George is not going to hear that.

Speaker 1: 42:07

I think you really do Any Catholics that have this conversation with George. You have to have the conversation on authority because so much of it for him is feelings Like it can't be about the Eucharist, it can't be about some of these other topics. I do think George feels bad that he called the Eucharist dirt. So that's good, like he realizes. Okay, I'm new with this and I spoke out of turn, but I think you guys have any other Catholics. Do have the conversation with George. It has to come down to authority Like it can't, because so many people think they can pick up their Bible in the 20th century, 21st century, now, in the 21st century, read the new Testament, have no understanding of the old Testament whatsoever and they think now I'm a Christian and I could go on a podcast and yeah, it's definitely, I would say.

Speaker 4: 42:52

Concerning that's why I would agree with you in spirit in about Voice of Reason is that he is trying to. He is using what St Thomas talks about in the Prima Pars when it comes to the apologetical method, which is that if one person denies a facet of divine revelation but does accept another, then you use that one to try to justify your position. And so, because George, at least seemingly, denies the role of sacred tradition in the magisterium but does accept scripture, he's trying to approach things from a scriptural perspective. But that being the case, I again would agree. I wouldn't start with the Eucharist, I would go and I would say let's, from the texts of scripture, really discuss this whole role of Peter, and then I can also explain to you the church's position outside of scripture.

Speaker 1: 43:56

It's a good thing I had you on, because if it was just me and Rob tonight, rob would have just let me go on ranting and not said any defending. And look, here's the thing I like voice of reason. Like I said, I think he did really good against James White. I think he did amazing on Ruslan's show. I just thought this was hard to sit through, man.

Speaker 1: 44:17

It was extremely difficult to sit through and I think he gave some really bad. It almost seemed like religious indifferentism. Christian Wagner actually texted me and he said he just said I'm not thrilled at people using my notes on extra Eccles, nulla salis in Vatican II to basically endorse practical indifferentism by defending voice of reason. There's a reason that Venerable Pius XII both condemned Feeney and said some reduced to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true church in order to gain eternal salvation.

Speaker 4: 44:52

Yeah, I agree with that I agree. I actually think if actually shout out to Christian Wagner his video on the subject of no salvation outside the church, I think is the best single like this I was going to say video, but it's the best short version treatment of this issue If you're not wanting to sit through and read a manual on the subject. I think that Wagner does a fantastic job. I I actually I aside from just like certain political things inside of the church I genuinely think that wagner's channel, I think, is up there in like the three top greatest catholic channels of all time. I'm not saying that to be flatter, I'm just saying that as like a brother in christ, like well, I see like him and sam going at it, and I love both of them.

Speaker 1: 45:36

I love like him and sam shimura. I really do love both of them. So, but I'm siding with sam I'm siding with sam on the metaphysic thing with the angel of the lord.

Speaker 4: 45:45

I'm just telling you so yeah, I know you're a thomas, but I know well, I just in genuine ingenue, like honesty, don't know almost anything about that subject. I've not done research and so that's why I haven't commented on it, because it's okay.

Speaker 1: 45:59

So chris said it's almost. It almost feels like, uh, george set guidelines on alex before the podcast voice of reason just seemed like he couldn't answer the way he does. So that's a, that's a possibility. I don't, I don't know what went on behind the scenes, right? Um so, and look, I like I came on very harsh.

Speaker 4: 46:18

I know I'm glad nick was here to balance me out a little bit well, it's just I, I think you and I can agree like maybe there's a certain amount of like tombra and way of presenting oneself that we can critique, but that's why I'm saying like I, I think that overall it was actually fairly good.

Speaker 1: 46:36

And people saying that this is a Ruslan bot. No, it's not. That's Ruslan. Ruslan and I will DM each other on occasion and stuff. I'm pretty sure this is him. People are saying it's a bot. I don't think it is Ruslan you're right 100%. I was just frustrated. I apologize, so I'll even I'll reach out to Alex and tell him I'm sorry too, but it's just.

Speaker 4: 46:56

It's not so much Alex as, like the, I think George is tricky to watch because, like everybody knows, the guy just became Christian like a few months ago, and like presenting yourself as a teacher is a really like yeah, the teacher, stuff can be concerning, and that's why I do think that maybe in a way, this like I think that this is why maybe voice of reason shows the perspective that he did, because in this, the tone that he did in the sense of coming off more like calm about things, and I think that that can be very productive. I mean again, like you shouldn't dialogue for the sake of dialogue. You should dialogue to get to truth, but it's, as saint francis de sales says, like you win more, you get more flies with honey than you do vinegar, and so that's why it's like you have to. It's this. He says this in introduction of the devout life which you're, you and I are currently reading anthony. He says um, you can give the truth, but if you don't mix the truth with charity, then people are unable to stomach it.

Speaker 4: 47:57

And so this is why I would look at it from the perspective of just like maybe there's certain ways that I wouldn't have presented things, but I wouldn't say it's horrible.

Speaker 1: 48:07

No, I wasn't Dude, I was just. I came in here frustrated. All right, like I'll change the thumbnail, I'll change the thumbnail.

Speaker 4: 48:16

I'll change the thumbnail Because I mean the way like what I can appreciate about both Ruslan and about George and this is genuine is that like this part? I can't Wait, wait, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: 48:29

Nick, I know I do this all the time and I cut people off. I'm sorry, nick, but Anthony, don't walk back. You're right, george has been in the faith for years. I'm not walking back, how I feel at all. I'm saying I didn't handle it charitably, like I still think he presented it. He presented it as if he presented no salvation outside the church, incorrectly, and I don't think George gave him the time to get to his final point, which would have been I think he was aiming towards it, which would have been no, no, no. The true presence is really only found through when the Catholic priest consecrates the host. But the conversation just got cut off and, look, it's okay if George doesn't agree with that opinion, right, like it's fine, like it's okay to disagree, like that's my biggest frustration. It's like you guys don't have to be besties and be all lovey-dovey. You could just say look, like it's okay to agree to disagree. But at least let me present what the church teaches without soft peddling. And it seemed like soft peddling.

Speaker 4: 49:28

Yeah, well, that's why I was saying like if I had any type of substantive critique, I'd say that I would have expanded it, because no salvation outside the church is just something that has to be talked about and explained properly before one engages with the opponent. What I was going to say about Ruslan and George is what I can genuinely say I do appreciate about both of them is that, coming from an evangelical background for 20 plus years, I can agree with at least the sentiments of you want things to be in the Bible, you want to be led by the Holy Ghost. That's kind of it's okay in areas, but it also kind of lacks a sturdy foundation and a more like historic Catholic perspective, and so that would just be. My encouragement to both of them is to have like that type of discussion have like that type of discussion.

Speaker 1: 50:37

Okay. So, ruslan, like I know you think that what I would say is, when you had alex on, that was a good, robust conversation. Like even though you two didn't come to an agreement, you were. It's not like you you admitted he had the right position or anything, but alex was at least able to present his position and you didn't interrupt him every time something got a little bit challenging. It's like George was so worried that that Alex was going to come off correct that he like every time Alex would be getting to something. He would just start talking over him and that's like do that too, I talk over people.

Speaker 1: 51:18

But like it was just very frustrating to watch where, when I watched Alex on Ruslan, I freaking learned something from Alex when he was on Ruslan. Like I, I I heard a perspective on purgatory. I had never really been able to flesh out properly and it really helped me. Like on purgatory, I had never really been able to flesh out properly and it really helped me, like understand purgatory. But like I was one of the best conversations I've seen in a long time.

Speaker 1: 51:42

And then to go from that, because that was like I was expecting that and what I got was this yes, I agree with you 100%, brother. I agree with you 100% brother. I agree with you 100%. Like no, don't say you agree with you 100 brother, I agree with you 100. Like no, don't say you agree with him 100. Say okay, that's your starting position, but let's show where the perspective is. I don't know I guess I'm like nitpicking the way he handled. I don't know, it's not easy. It's easy to, it's easy to sideline quarterback. It is because when you're in that position, you know sometimes it's difficult to like just jump in and be harsh, but it was frustrating a lot well, yeah, because I I think, like I can, I can agree with you that there are things that I wish you would have more fleshed out.

Speaker 4: 52:20

Um, they don't have to be complex, but they can give a greater context to the catholic teaching on a subject. When it comes to, just again, some of like art, the, the style, I think, again, you don't want to come off as indifferentistic, but I think some of this is subjective to both of us and this is why I'm not really harsh about it, just because it's like. Well, as an example, you may find like the really fast paced boom, boom, back and forth boxing match style apologetics appealing, but for me, as an example, like when I listened to a lot of those debates, I it's, it's, it's more of a snooze fest. I prefer like long, meticulous discussion.

Speaker 1: 52:54

If that conversation was three hours long it would have been way better. They had a dinner reservation so it was getting cut off. That's kind of what was frustrating to me. All right, so we got, okay, a couple of questions. We got this one coming in. Thanks for addressing this topic. Is taking the Eucharist required for salvation in God's sight? I'm going to let Nick answer these. Which church father first interpreted Christ's instruction to observe past? What's ULB in Luke 22, matthew 26, as the Eucharist?

Speaker 4: 53:22

I don't know what ULB is standing for, so if you could clarify that, that would be helpful. But is taking the Eucharist required in God's sight? I assume he's meaning for salvation? The answer in the strict sense of the term would be no, but in the broader sense of the term, yes. So it depends on what you mean by necessity.

Speaker 4: 53:41

There is a certain necessity of precept. What necessity of precept means is that God says, our Lord says, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man ie a command you shall not have eternal life in you. But then the church also recognizes things called necessity of means. And in the necessity of means there can again, depending upon, maybe, your lack of, like, a true, invincible ignorance or a visible awareness you are therefore culpable. So if you are visibly aware, force out that this is necessary. Right, you know the church is teaching, you're aware the church is teaching, you're in the church, etc. Uh, or even if you're not in the church, like, yes, you need to go into the church, you need to receive our lord, but if you're invisibly ignorant of this right, for whatever, and it's genuinely- not just that, it's it's.

Speaker 1: 54:27

It's like if in the with the church in japan, when the priests were not able to be in j, so there was no mass available to them. Salvation wasn't withheld from them because they had no access to the Eucharist, which is what voice of reason was essentially saying, but it's not really invincible ignorance in that situation.

Speaker 4: 54:47

Yeah, it might be a little bit of category confusion, but yeah, that's a short answer, no-transcript and faith, um, and it has to be animated and it has to be also the keeping of the moral law wait.

Speaker 1: 55:30

What would I be jealous of? Jealous of what? Well, I gotta explain something to you guys. Like I didn't read it, I'm a construction. What would I be jealous of? Jealous of what I got to explain something to you guys.

Speaker 1: 55:39

I'm a construction worker. Guys, I honestly don't like the idea of being a professional Catholic. I think there are very dangerous things when you get into that field. Because I like that, I have a day job and this is just a hobby and a goofy thing we do on the side. It's like, oh, I get a couple extra bucks to help help with the bills around and stuff. But like, I'm not trying to be a professional, I'm not an apologist by any stretch of the imagination. I'm a fricking high school dropout, so I don't know what I could possibly. Not only am I not jealous, like I was really excited to see this conversation at first. I was like, oh, good, voice of reasons going on and I've seen other things he's done and I really did like it and I just I think my expectations were set too high and watching how it went down, I was just like what the hell is this? Like it was. Just it's very frustrating for me to watch yeah, it could be that.

Speaker 4: 56:32

I mean honestly, if there's any slight like desire for um praise and exaltation in us, that should be destroyed, because it's like I pray this every time before I go on the air. I'm not perfect at this by any stretch of the means, so people do pray for me, but I always want christ to be seen and for me to disappear, like I want genuinely christ's name to be honored and exalted, and that's why, like recently, I'm just trying to give as much charity and benefit of the doubt to people, because our lord does say do unto others as you would have them do to you, and I know that if I was speaking and I was to misspeak or be out of turn, maybe an individual would at least give me that type of charity and benefit of the doubt would never be a representative for the Catholic faith.

Speaker 1: 57:15

I do suck and I don't care. That's not what we do here. We do social commentary and things like that. So, yeah, I wouldn't want to be a representative for the faith. Look, I'm talking over Nick, because I'm trying to pay attention to comments and then somebody says something. I am a little jealous of Elijah Yazzie. Actually, I'm jealous of both the yazi brothers. I heard uh zuby's going on to uh for a while. This is uh uh enoch's track. So zuby and uh zuby and enoch putting a track out together. I'm looking forward to that congratulations.

Speaker 4: 57:48

If you guys ever want a banjo solo in the middle of it, let me know.

Speaker 1: 57:52

Anthony's not erudite, but he is effective. I'm an entertainer, I'm good at being entertaining, and that's what I was going for. Oh, enoxio, look at that.

Speaker 4: 58:04

Oh, Enoxio, Good to see you sir.

Speaker 1: 58:08

Look, I was a little harsh, alex, my apologies. Everybody in the chat I apologize. Look, this is my apologies. Everybody in the chat, I apologize. Look, this is just my personality.

Speaker 1: 58:19

I don't know what to tell you guys. I'm going to set something up. Everybody's saying bring on Sam. I'm going to have Sam on for an individual discussion on the angel of the Lord and I want to talk to him about the debate with him and the Thomists. Honestly, I'm going to tell you guys right now, that is the most interesting debate I have heard, and it's not like a debate, but watching the Catholic-Protestant debates, I've been listening to these same arguments for 25 years.

Speaker 1: 58:53

But what Sam was talking about the other night and what the Thomists are holding like those two positions are like really interesting and it reminded me of a controversy that would arise in the early church, like the two natures of Christ and things like that. It's. It's such an interesting topic and it's about whether um like, when Christ when, when, when, when God, when, when there are theophanies in the old testament, are those creatures right? So if, when jacob is wrestling with god, is that a creature like, is it created or like? If it's not so, sam's position is the.

Speaker 1: 59:28

The tomas are like trying to get the metaphysics of everything and they're're overanalyzing it right. And there's some things we read in the scripture and you just have to take it on faith and Sam actually went through St Ambrose and brought up quotes from that. I tend to side with that a little bit. I kind of like that. There's a little mystery there and I don't need to analytically understand what's happening there. But I know especially the modern Thomas, cause you guys are all a little bit autistic, like you need to know every little fricking thing. So I understand Christian Wagner's position also, cause he's like, no, like that has to be a creative thing, even if it's like a vision that Jacob's having and it's not flesh and blood, like it's still a created thing. But then you're talking about an incarnation before the incarnation, and does it have god's nature?

Speaker 4: 1:00:19

it's a really difficult, interesting topic I again, I have not examined it outside of very cursory like tidbits that I've heard online. Um, I tend to, from the tidbits that I have heard, side, at least philosophically, a bit more with christian, of course I, I think, if you have Sam on Thomas, you will stick together, yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:00:38

But there's, of course, a metaphysical reason that it makes it. It's rational. But I would say what we should do in the in the world of fairness is, if you have Sam on, we should invite both Wagner as well as my friend Dr Matthew minor Don. He is the arch greatest Thomist of our era and maybe they can present that, because he was on oh what's his name? Gentleman, that was on Reason and Theology back in the OG days. I'm forgetting his name, albrecht, I think it is yeah, William.

Speaker 4: 1:01:05

Albrecht? Yeah, william Albrecht, I think it was, and they had a fantastic discussion.

Speaker 1: 1:01:19

I saw at least about it, I caught a little bit of it and thus far it's amazing conversation, yeah, yeah, well, I think william was in sam's chat the other day, so it was christian wagner. Now, look, sam's personality. I, I like it, but I can see why some people are like dude. Are you kidding me? It's like I'm not even gonna say some of this to be sense. I freaking love sam. So, um, um, uh, yeah, sam, well, that's what that's how I I love.

Speaker 1: 1:01:38

I loved listening to Sam do exegesis of the text. I thought it was so freaking interesting and I think that's why me and Sam fall on the side of, like you, like Eastern orthodoxy presents, um, like people, I think you can be saved still, and I don't, nickel, jump on me for that because I think they understand holiness and their sacraments are valid and it's like I don't, I don't understand that. I don't. You know, I understand no salvation outside the church, but I think somehow the east is still part of the church. I don't understand that. I just tend, yeah, I would say I don't know if that works with your initial premises on criticizing I the church.

Speaker 4: 1:02:14

I don't understand it. I just tend to side with it. I don't know if that works with your initial premises on criticizing. I don't either. I don't know.

Speaker 1: 1:02:19

Look, I don't need to understand all of it. I just find the conversation extremely interesting, way more than the conversation I watched today on George Jenko's show. So it's not branch theory. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying I'm sympathetic to the view.

Speaker 4: 1:02:34

I'm not saying If the East is part of the church holistically that would be branch theory. But I understand your desire.

Speaker 1: 1:02:41

I'm not saying that's correct. I'm saying I'm sympathetic to the East. I think some of their devotions are really cool and I think some of the ways they don't always try, Because the West is such an analytical mind and you have the Thomistic tradition where we need to understand everything in the metaphysical level, where I kind of like that some things are left to the mystery of it.

Speaker 4: 1:03:01

Well, I don't think that that's how it is actually. I think that what Thomism is fundamentally the synthesis between faith and reason is that it's not reason with a golden halo. That's not Thomism or scholasticism. I'm not a bislothism or scholasticism, not a bislark. Um what what's galactic?

Speaker 1: 1:03:17

I say a lot of things I don't even know what I'm saying. Sometimes I'm just, I'm just, I don't know, I just talk.

Speaker 4: 1:03:22

Sometimes I don't always think through it what's galacticism is ultimately is it basically says can we through, especially like natural analogy, understand elements of god's divine revelation and see the reasonable and the credibility in that, and then therefore, what it is from that is that that should be a propeller into the mystical life.

Speaker 1: 1:03:45

And so all the great are mystical scholastics. This is it. That's it. If you're cool, you're in the church. That's the new bar.

Speaker 4: 1:03:52

Well, that's kind of subjective because, again, it depends on what you define as cool.

Speaker 1: 1:03:57

I am the one who determines what is cool?

Speaker 4: 1:04:00

that's good to know, pope of cool.

Speaker 1: 1:04:02

I'm telling you guys, right now I am the pope of cool. All right, we're gonna wrap this up. Alex, if you made it to the end, I apologize. Guys, I was very harsh, I was rash. Ruslan, thank you for checking in and stopping by. Who else was in there? Sam? Thank you for popping in. Christian, thank you for popping in. I always like when my friends pop into the chat. We'll maybe discuss this further at a later date, but I'll probably reach out to.

Speaker 1: 1:04:27

Alex and give him a little apology before he even sees this thing. I know we have different opinions on the Eucharist, but it really is the only thing that ties everything together. It connects the spiritual and the physical.

Speaker 4: 1:04:38

All of our theology is centered around the Eucharist, and so it's very important. Oh, thank you, guys for the continued super chats.

Speaker 1: 1:04:45

Straight up. I mean we'll still, we'll stay. Everybody's telling me to stop interrupting. I did that today to Nick a lot and I did it to Michael Hichborn last night. What was that? What was that Super chat? What did it say? It said straight up George Janko took advantage of a nice Catholic that was looking to make a friend and Sam came in hot with fatherly, tough love and straight yeah, that's. That's actually a very good assessment.

Speaker 4: 1:05:09

I mean, I would say per se, but I would say per se, but I would just encourage, I just like, in a way, it's like you know, these kinds of personal squabbles back and forth, it's just like let them be between those persons, cause, like, what I would like to look at again is the substance of it, as opposed to like how it came off per se. How it came off can be important, but only to varying degrees.

Speaker 1: 1:05:29

I try to be all things to all people, tommy. I don't know if I come off with a little brash and then I kind of back it off a little bit. I did that with the freaking kid from. With that last kid I was like he's so annoying.

Speaker 4: 1:05:44

Scholastic Zoomer. If you're on Instagram, reach out to me on Instagram on Traditional Tomist and we'll do some type of collaboration.

Speaker 1: 1:05:52

Yeah, the Sam and Christian beef, though it's like.

Speaker 4: 1:05:59

Well, it's a way, and I actually think it's a pity in the sense that what I what I do see kind of sad about it, is that, while they're coming from different perspectives and I think that, like these perspectives should be aired and debated I don't, of course, like to see kind of maybe some of the heart let's just say strong words yeah, strong rhetoric?

Speaker 4: 1:06:18

I don't think that I don't think that's necessary because, for instance, when you look at the church fathers, they'll sometimes use strong rhetoric, of course, but, like, for instance, saint thomas or a lot of the scholastics, they will just use this opinion given by a well-known man, and they won't even cite who he is. Gary good lagrange, of course, says this in the 40s, and so I think that that's the better tone.

Speaker 1: 1:06:39

If you are going to name somebody, uh, at least be, at least be somewhat gentle, I would say well, yeah, and the thing is, I think I just think that's like sam's personality, where sam he like just jumps right over to like your mother's a whore of satan and things like that, yeah, I, I want to get both of them because it's like on a on a, especially the natural level, like they're in supernatural, like both of them are brothers in christ.

Speaker 4: 1:07:03

We share a common baptism and we all do, I would pray, hope that christ will be glorified and and the things that we do, and so I would just say, let christ be glorified, especially, just sometimes, in the way that we, you know, exhibit ourselves. That's just, it's just a kind brotherly reminder.

Speaker 1: 1:07:19

Sam says, dr Minard will not appear with Wagner. I don't, I don't know, I don't know. If there's any, I'd like to at least have a conversation with both of them, because I like he has an ex, but he won't tell any of us what his handle is.

Speaker 4: 1:07:32

Yeah, not not in a few months, though you guys will, because I'll be coming out with a separate show. But uh, if you do have instagram, let me know and uh, come over and say hello. I'm trying to get to know, I'm trying to trying to have more friends that are into, like the, the really nerdy scholasticism world, for lack of better words, just well, the thing with x nick is that, um, it's not a good place.

Speaker 1: 1:07:52

Well, no, forget that it's the best place to get in touch with people, though, like it's the best way for communication. So even if you're not posting anything, it's good to just have one so people could dm you and get messages to you and stuff like that. Sam, thank you, brother, love you. We'll talk this week.

Speaker 1: 1:08:05

I want to get you back on yeah, god bless him um, and christian, like, so, christian, okay, so the, the Sam and Christian thing. Sam had I got people texting me. No, anthony, don't apologize, double down, alright, ruslan's out. That's it. Listen to me, this frickin' Alex. He annoyed the crap out of me right now. So, um, ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba, okay, so, uh, okay. So I honestly um, okay, so, uh, okay. So I honestly don't even know what to do at this point.

Speaker 1: 1:08:39

Sam's view is heretical. He thinks the medium in which god is seen is uncreated. Catholic dogma teaches that god is invisible and immutable. He basically holds to the salafi muslim position that the body in which god appeared is uncreated. This contradicts a number of different dogmas, everything from his incorporality to immutable, to his immutability, to his simplicity. He also frequently contradicts the catholic dogma by preaching indifferentism on catholic verse, orthodox questions, which sam christian just called me out on, and contradicts catholic doctrine on a number of different questions, including the goodness of the scholastic method, among others. So this is the thing I. I just thought the conversation was extremely interesting and even, like I said, I, sam is uh. His position is, if you guys stay on this created thing, the Orthodox are going to eat you up because they have this uncreated energy thing, and you know it's not God but it's an uncreated energy. I don't know. You get into jay dyer stuff and it goes yeah, it's, it's basic.

Speaker 4: 1:09:41

The energy essence distinction is essentially, essentially that you have god's essence but that it's separated from his created energies. And so, basically, what christian is criticized? Again, I don't know Sam's position, that's why I'm saying I don't want to comment too much on it, but Christian's criticism of it I understand fully where it's coming from and I would agree with it if it, of course, is something that is substantively true. Again, I would like to see the Scholastic answer. Yeah, I know you're not.

Speaker 1: 1:10:13

Wagner. Oh, that wasn't Wagner. I thought that was Wagner.

Speaker 4: 1:10:17

Scholastic Zoomer, not Scholastic. Did I say answer, that's probably on me.

Speaker 1: 1:10:21

I thought it was Wagner because I thought it was Scholastic Answers. It's Scholastic Zoomer.

Speaker 4: 1:10:24

I've seen Zoomer in some of my comments before and it's nice to know there's other people interested in the subject matter.

Speaker 1: 1:10:33

It is a boomer moment.

Speaker 4: 1:10:37

I, the subject matter um. It is a boomer.

Speaker 1: 1:10:38

Yeah, I, I honestly feel like my memory is, uh, is lapsing a little bit, so pray for me, okay. So, um, all right, we're gonna wrap this up. Ruslan dn me. I want to actually talk to him, I want, I want to think this is like drama. Sam's a maniac, he just sam is a freaking loose cannon dude. Sam is just a loose cannon. What happens is people send Sam clips or they'll tell Sam something happened and Sam will just go off based on the information he got from somebody secondhand, but he doesn't actually see what the person said. And it's like then a whole drama comes out and Sam just blasts off. I think it's hilarious, but I mean, you guys got to take that with a grain of salt, like the people that get offended by that. It's like that's just Sam, like it doesn't mean he hates you.

Speaker 4: 1:11:24

It's just Sam blasting off. We just have to be careful because, again, it's like we don't want the enemies of Christ to have too much ammo to throw at us, and so it's like sometimes someone can just be turned off if they're just at least being in the appearance of being seen as insulting language being thrown at them, and so that's why it's just like. It can be, of course, times where it can be amusing, but I think sometimes you also have to be like aware yeah, uh, and I agree with this.

Speaker 1: 1:11:48

God bless voice of reason bringing people to christ and has a good heart. I just think his heart's a little too big. I don't know, I don't know, I don't know if he has the temperament for this. Like you gotta be a little mean sometimes, not, maybe sam's the extreme on one side and voice of reason is the extreme on the other. We needed somebody like kind of in the middle of that. That was like you know, I think that's what we gotta find. We gotta find somebody that's like a little in the middle of those two to maybe you know, but I mean how many opportunities you're gonna get? I mean you're gonna get for this.

Speaker 4: 1:12:16

Well, as I said, like I'd be happy to to talk with george, and we doesn't have to be a podcast, like I can just sit down, I can go to wherever he is and we can just have a substantive conversation, I'd be happy to talk I don't like this, this version of nick.

Speaker 1: 1:12:27

This middle of the road I'm just gonna be super charitable and I'm not gonna say anything. Controversial's going on.

Speaker 4: 1:12:33

I like when you shoot off a little, nick. I will say controversial things, but I guess this is what I'm saying. I just genuinely want to be better at practicing our Lord's teaching, and so, therefore, the scripture is just so clear about you are supposed to love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you, do unto others as you would have them do to you, and with your brothers especially, you're supposed to love one another as christ loved them. Of course, that doesn't mean all sunshine and rain was like a liberal version of love, but what that does mean is that, like you, try to give them as much benefit of the doubt as you possibly can, because you'd hope that that same treatment be given to you.

Speaker 1: 1:13:10

so all right, mr nuance, I'm just yeah, yeah, I'm just.

Speaker 4: 1:13:16

I'm just genuinely trying to be a better christian you're doing good it's length.

Speaker 1: 1:13:20

I am proud of you. I'm glad I had you on. Don't don't be proud of me, don't be proud of me.

Speaker 1: 1:13:24

I'm telling you right now, if it was rob on and you weren't here, rob would have just let me unleash and you were very, very charitable through the entire thing and I appreciate you, nick. That was very good through the entire thing and I appreciate you, nick, that was very good. All right, guys, we're going to wrap this up. We have like 1100 people watching right now. I would like all of you to please hit like and subscribe. Come on, there's 700 people on YouTube right now. Like, subscribe, share this video, tell everybody. Anthony lost his mind at the beginning and then completely back down like a coward at the end. Let's get this going. All right, guys. We will see you on Tuesday night. Thank you all, adios, thank you.