Mel Gibson and Joe Rogan Talk Pachamama, Francis, and More

Get ready for a rollercoaster of topics as we sprinkle in some spicy local show gossip and gear up for the much-anticipated 15th Annual Men's Conference of the Carolinas. Plus, Kennedy Hall drops by to offer his take on the world's hottest topics—from the Charismatic Renewal to the Joe Rogan/Mel Gibson interview.

We unpack Mel Gibson's eyebrow-raising chat with Joe Rogan, dissecting his thoughts on everything from the Shroud of Turin to Hollywood's reaction to "The Passion of the Christ." Our deep dive into church conspiracy theories is both enlightening and amusing, as we revisit the 1958 papal conclave and the legacy of John XXIII with a humorous look at papal naming quirks.

The charismatic movement within the Catholic Church takes center stage as we examine its origins, practices, and the ongoing debate about its fit with traditional teachings. From personal tales of spiritual awakenings to critical insights on charismatic phenomena, it's a winding journey through faith and reason. We wrap with a look at Joe Rogan's evolving perspective on faith, while contemplating the mystery of the Shroud of Turin, leaving us pondering honesty, integrity, and the societal ripple effects of belief systems.

Chapters

• 0:08 Local Show Gossip and Conference Updates
• 3:00 Religious and Political Discussion With Mel
• 13:29 Church Conspiracy Theories and Vatican Politics
• 27:56 Catholic Church Crisis and Conspiracy Theories
• 35:36 Modernism and Vatican II Revelation
• 48:40 Charismatic Renewal and Conversion Experience
• 55:41 Charismatic Renewal Critique'm
• 59:10 Baptism in the Holy Ghost
• 1:05:46 Origins of Charismatic Movement Critique
• 1:16:01 Charismatic Renewal and Vatican II
• 1:22:48 Charismatic Movement Origins and Controversies
• 1:34:12 Scandalous Conference Drama
• 1:48:34 Catholic Crisis and Authority in Faith
• 1:58:44 Resurrection Belief and Religious Influence
• 2:04:35 Joe Rogan, Faith, and Shroud

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

SANTE, sante AMARE MORTI DE TRADAS NUS IN TE SPERA VERUM In taste that I've erred.

Speaker 3: 0:32

Come downstairs. She come out her apartment with her baby with no shoes on.

Speaker 4: 0:35

I said oh girl, it's cold outside. She said something ain't right. I said oh man.

Speaker 5: 0:40

She said oh man, the building is on fire. I said, no what? I got my three kids and we bounced out. We ain't going to be in no fire, not today.

Speaker 3: 0:54

One of Anthony's cousins talking about her experience. Do you think that's going to?

Speaker 2: 0:57

be described as misogynistic or racist in the next email to diocese All right, listen, Listen.

Speaker 5: 1:03

I know I know I Listen, listen. I know I know I have to listen. I know we always pitch the local show. You guys need to understand something. Tonight's local show you have to be there for, like, we have something for tonight's local show. I can't even tell you guys what it is on this side, but we're going to tell you guys about some really juicy this side. But we're gonna tell you guys about some really juicy gossip on the other side tonight. So if you're not subscribed to locals, all I can tell you is the five dollars that it costs to get on there.

Speaker 5: 1:35

I promise you you will not regret tonight even if you just bought the one month to be there, I promise you you will not be let down. We have a great local show then tonight. Oh, we got no way. We got adrian and tara in the chat. Where's adrian?

Speaker 2: 1:55

don't you know how to read? I don't first off this is probably a different oh, different adrian, different adrian but this adrian is going to be at the conference in Charlotte. No way, yeah, we're hanging with Adrian. He got his hotel room.

Speaker 5: 2:07

I'm so pumped. All right. So okay, and we can still promote this conference because we have not been banned from the conference. We are still in the conference. So February 8th we will be in Charlotte, north Carolina, rob and I. We're going in Friday, we're leaving Sunday. The conference itself is on Saturday. We'll try to do this quick because we spent a lot of time on it last time.

Speaker 2: 2:28

It's the 15th annual men's conference of the Carolinas. I think it's called.

Speaker 5: 2:32

Yeah, so this is going to be a fun, fun conference. If you guys are able, please come. Not been banned yet. We have some juicy updates for you. On the other side, though, that's all I'll say. Um, okay, so me and rob we're going to discuss the passport, wildfires, our mod passport.

Speaker 2: 2:53

That's why oh oh, kennedy's joining us.

Speaker 5: 2:56

We have one kennedy is joining us tonight. Kennedy will be here in about a half hour and 40 minutes. I see Tara, okay.

Speaker 2: 3:04

Yeah, kennedy's here, so we can announce our support for his running for governorship of America's 51st state, nice.

Speaker 5: 3:15

Tara's from Canada too. I got to tell you I don't think I want Canada as our 51st state.

Speaker 2: 3:21

No, the territory would be nice.

Speaker 5: 3:23

I'm more in favor of Canada annexing'm more in favor of canada annexing california than I am of us annexing california we could annex saskatchewan like trade that for california.

Speaker 5: 3:33

That'd be cool with me um, I showed my soon-to-be wife your latin troll tweets and she found them hilarious. So that's one woman that finds you funny that she's also a keeper. Marry that one. Thank you, nicholas, appreciate you All right. So Rob and I were going to discuss I noticed you weren't going to put that one up. I love when reason and theology pops in. It's always a fun time. Rob and I were going to discuss the California fires tonight. We were going to talk about how they might be a God's wrath upon the new Sodom, and then Mel Gibson the Mel Gibson and Joe Rogan interview dropped. Hold on, though.

Speaker 2: 4:12

Holy cow. We need to point out something very important here who was he on with first? Who?

Speaker 5: 4:20

is he what?

Speaker 2: 4:21

Who was Mel on with first? Oh he's on with us.

Speaker 5: 4:26

We was on with us, but like a year. Yeah, all right, but I gotta I'm a little upset with father nicks for not letting us get that interview out of him, like we could have gotten this interview out of mel yeah, to be fair, though, the only reason like rogan's having him on right now is because rogan's fallen to number two in podcast behind the rosary in a year so he's like I need to lose my catholic, my catholic support you know we we could release the part we cut out of our mel interview do it dude.

Speaker 3: 4:57

I don't even know what it is, but do it all right. Well, this show needs some real spice for the main audience. I'm just saying no, we could maybe release that on locals.

Speaker 5: 5:07

Mel said some dicey stuff, that's all. We cut it out.

Speaker 2: 5:10

You know, I really don't know how a certain someone can call us anti-Semitic. I mean, look at this, oh Rob, look at this.

Speaker 3: 5:18

It's a fair point.

Speaker 2: 5:19

It is a very fair point.

Speaker 3: 5:19

Come on, it is a very careful one.

Speaker 5: 5:21

Let me be the one to carry the.

Speaker 2: 5:24

You're right, you're right, you're right. You need to be the target. Let me be the target. I know how to handle families.

Speaker 5: 5:31

Yes, all right, so yeah. So I listened to this. So look, we have two clips. One is off the walls. Bonkers, he Mel goes full. Insane set of a contest. Conspiracy theor Sedevacontis, conspiracy theorist, nutcase the other one is.

Speaker 5: 5:46

Which is our clip, by the way, and it's a very long clip. But the other one is Mel discussing the resurrection, and it's a really good clip. And Mel discussing the resurrection, he brings in the Shroud of Turner, he gets Joe's interest going and then he discusses typology with Joe and starts talking about the cross, how Golgotha is called the. The is golgotha means the mountain of skulls, and that's because adam's skull was beneath that and it's the thing that went pretty deep sacrifice on, like people know that. And he goes into that because I'm assuming that's what the the resurrection is about, right, like the movie the resurrection that he's making. So, and that's a short clip, so we'll try and get to that one too, but let's just jump right into it. If you guys aren't, please hit subscribe, like subscribe. Do the thing you're supposed to do.

Speaker 2: 6:37

I'm pretty sure Mel is old school set of a contest, like his dad was a famous, well-known set of a contest, right.

Speaker 3: 6:45

Yeah, I don't remember.

Speaker 5: 6:49

Hutton, I think was his name, right? Alright, let's get into it, Come on.

Speaker 3: 6:54

Okay.

Speaker 2: 6:58

That's funny.

Speaker 5: 7:00

The reason that's funny is because Mel gets into the Siri set of accountants theory.

Speaker 3: 7:05

Which most of you normies, I trust have never heard of before.

Speaker 2: 7:08

So you'll, you'll find out are we doing the first longer one or the second? Yeah, okay, first longer one I'm gonna knock out.

Speaker 5: 7:15

Jeff, you can't bully my jester, anthony. Um, okay, so I start this clip. He starts talking about um the passion. So joe asks him about some of the controversy in the passion and they both tiptoe around a very sensitive topic that we all know, why mel caught so much heat for the passion. But they don't really, you know, you don't really address the real issue same reason why we're the gospel of john.

Speaker 6: 7:40

Yeah yeah yeah it's not like, yeah, there's a lot of, there was a lot of opposition to it and, uh, I don't know it's. I think if you ever hit on that subject matter, you're gonna get people going, because of course, it's big subject matter and it's like, uh, you know, and my contention is, you know, when I was making it, it was like you're making this film and the idea was that we're all responsible for this, that his sacrifice was for all mankind and that, for all our ills and all the things in our fallen nature, it was a redemption. And I believe that I actually am. I was born into a Catholic family. I'm very Christian in my beliefs, you know, so I do actually believe this stuff to the full.

Speaker 1: 8:35

So depicting that was an honor, but it was also, yeah, you got the daylights beat out of you for it yeah, because there's there's resistance, first of all from secular hollywood where, for whatever reason, christianity is the one religion that you're allowed to disparage. Yeah, christianity is the one religion where people, all these progressive, open-minded leftist people, they'll embrace all these different religions until it comes to christianity and, for whatever reason, that represents, like white male, you know whatever it represents. Colonialism, you know whatever.

Speaker 6: 9:13

You know, whatever it represents, it's negative, yeah sure it's gotten a bad rap and they people do feel free to beat up on it. Even I I do when I see it's like you know, when it's not fair, when I think it's off, like you know, when they appoint some cardinal in some diocese and he's been covering up for, like people who are child molesters.

Speaker 2: 9:35

You know, like Theodore.

Speaker 6: 9:36

McCarrick or Cardinal Wuerl or those kind of guys, or the Pope? Yes, absolutely Benedict, not Benedict. Well, he was covering up, but so is the guy now. Is he really? Well? Yeah, yeah, it's not great.

Speaker 1: 9:51

I thought he was like the more progressive Pope. Oh, he's very progressive yes, but he's covering up for stuff as well. Well, they all are. I mean, it's a dark institution in a lot of ways, because it's history.

Speaker 6: 10:05

Well, you know, well you know the institution. It was instituted by christ, you know. But that doesn't mean that it can't be flawed, and there's a school of thought that says it isn't what it purports to be anymore.

Speaker 5: 10:17

It's, it's where it was intended to be and what it is.

Speaker 6: 10:22

Uh, Almost like a guy called Bishop V, you know who says it's a counterfeit parallel church.

Speaker 5: 10:31

Oh boy, here we go, oh wow.

Speaker 6: 10:33

An entirely different religion. I actually don't adhere to a post-conciliar church. I adhere.

Speaker 1: 10:42

Can you define what that means?

Speaker 6: 10:44

Okay, oh boy, there was an event that happened in the in the 60s. First, there was an event in the vatican where they elected john the 23rd pope. Right in 1958 I was two years old, right um, he was elected. And it was a very funny thing. That happened in the conclave, you know, usually there's white and black smoke that goes out of the chimneys to tell you we have a pope. You know, have a must pop him, you know. And the white smoke came out and everybody cheered and they went crazy and then about a half an hour later, black smoke came out. Never in history has that happened, that the white smoke came out and then the black smoke came out. Never in history has that happened, that the white smoke came out and then the black smoke.

Speaker 1: 11:25

So white smoke means we found a new pope, black smoke means no pope.

Speaker 6: 11:30

That's right. They'd have votes or there'd be one reason or another. They'd have a round in the conclave and black smoke would come out many times, many times, maybe, maybe it would take two weeks, but never was it known that white smoke came out. Then black smoke came out. So what was the scenario? That somebody was elected and that maybe something else happened and he was pushed aside and someone else was put in. So it was some kind of power struggle and, of course, the man who came out was a man called Angelo Roncalli, and he was John XXIII.

Speaker 6: 12:08

Now, it's interesting to note that never had a pope taken the name of another pope ever before in history. But this man took the name of a known anti-pope from the 15th century that Cosimo de' Medici put in there as his own man. I'll get you in the chair and then everything will be rosy. Everything will go good for business. Whatever he medici put in there as his own man. I'll get you in the chair and then everything will be rosy. You know, everything will go good for business. You know whatever he was putting him in there for some corrupt reason. But um, and there have been corrupt men in that place before, I mean there's alexander the sixth and julius the second, the sixth, fourth, I mean chill out, you don't be hit trash on my boy, alexander the sixth.

Speaker 5: 12:43

I like that, all right, all right, so all right. So, nick, why don't you get into what the what the siri theory is? Because you were telling me some things like I I never really looked into this, the like the siri theory, and I never heard that. Like I've heard that ron collie was a freemason and that would make that's what made his election invalid. I've never heard that they elected somebody else and then pulled them out and then put Roncalli. Like I never heard that.

Speaker 3: 13:11

Yeah, the Siri theory is essentially that that the iPhone managed to become Pope and, at the end of the day, it took over a technocracy.

Speaker 3: 13:21

And no sorry I'm just if people are wondering why I look like super dazed I've been ill for like five, six days. Um, so the theory theory it's actually very interesting. It's essentially a theory of setes that in 1958, when pious the 11th or pious the 12th died, they went into the papal conclave and a pope was chosen who was supposed to be, if memory serves, gregory the 17th I forget the, the cardinal's name, but people can go and look this up of that and a pope was chosen who was supposed to be, if memory serves, gregory XVII I forget the cardinal's name, but people can go and look this up. That conclave and when he was elected because he was very conservative and he was very much so of the brand of Pius XII, they essentially threatened the man with death that if you are to actually assume the throne, you'll end up dead. And so what took place from there is they went back in and Roncalli right, john XXIII ends up becoming the pope Gregory.

Speaker 2: 14:17

XVII was the Palmerian anti-pope.

Speaker 3: 14:22

Yeah, well, the Palmerian anti-Pope, but that would have been like, I think, a post. Would that be like a recent one, 1946. Okay, gotcha, Anyway. Well, I'm trying to remember the exact what the set A say. I think they said that he was supposed to be Gregory XVII. Regardless, what ended up happening was that Roncalli ends up becoming Pope Now a lot of people. Siri was the one who was voted that they think was voted as pope right, exactly, right, exactly, cardinal Siri, see again, I'm just, I'm blanking y'all because I barely had any.

Speaker 5: 14:56

You're a little off your game for that.

Speaker 3: 14:58

I've had like three pieces of food the last four days. Anyway, but long story short, what ends up happening is that ron cauley gets in, and ron cauley if people don't know john the 23rd essentially gets, I think, the kindest rap of all the post-conciliar popes. Um, you know, because it's like, okay, you know he has the 62 missile and sure he calls the council, but you know he has this document on preserving latin and sacredness of liturgy, etc. Etc. Really, though, people actually go back and they look at who Roncalli was.

Speaker 3: 15:25

Roncalli was a very, very liberal, very, very liberal cardinal, so much so that it's a very famous story that when he became Pope, one of his first acts was to go into the holy office and take his own file and insert the phrase he is not a modernist into his own file. It's very humorous, but the reason for this is because he was suspected of modernism before by the Holy Office, never condemned, but suspect of it. The reason he was suspect of this was because he was a very pro-liturgical movement figure, not the liturgical movement of like uh dom grand j or saint pious 10th, but of people like, for instance, young men and uh bunini and things like that. These really, uh, really bad figures that ended up rising up and ended up crafting the new mass anyway. That's the whole theory, and so the theory is to save the church. The setes put forward the syri thesis. That's one of many set a theses, but I guess that's the one that mel Sedes put forward, the Siri thesis.

Speaker 5: 16:25

That's one of many Sede theses, but I guess that's the one that Mel holds Right. So that's the one that Mel holds All right, let's keep going with it, because he gets into some. He gets into the Pachamama. It's a very long clip. I don't want to waste the whole show breaking it up like we did with the Knowles and Kirk clip.

Speaker 6: 16:47

We took a five-minute clip and turned it into an hour and a half. Yeah, that was long. Some of these guys are, you know, they're not saints. So he took the name of a known anti-pope from the 5th century who actually said yes, I'm an anti-pope, sorry, I'm not the right guy, because there was more than one and he confessed to being and he wanted to, you know, square things with the Almighty, I guess. So he confessed to being an anti-pope and so he took the same name as that guy John XXIII. So it's interesting, don't you think? I mean, why would he do that?

Speaker 1: 17:15

Well, whenever you have that kind of power, like I'm sure, you've been to the Vatican, right? Yeah, it's stunning. I'm going to tell everybody that there is an F-bomb somewhere in here.

Speaker 5: 17:27

So hide your kids, hide your wife. She has this bad language in it.

Speaker 2: 17:32

Wife, you mean dishwasher. Go away, wife.

Speaker 5: 17:34

If you guys have sensitive ears I'm giving you a warning there is an F-bomb somewhere in here I don't remember where, so go ahead, rob.

Speaker 1: 17:44

You're walking around around you see just the massive, just the dollar value in the art that they possess. Yeah, it's fucking insane, it's crazy.

Speaker 2: 17:54

There was sorry guys and uh you know, uh hold on live stream. Uh, I streams down. No, because of this.

Speaker 5: 18:03

Yeah oh, come on. Will they put it back up, you think?

Speaker 2: 18:12

I mean right now we're still live on probably facebook and twitter and locals all right, let's give it a sec.

Speaker 5: 18:18

Let's see if it pops back up. That stinks. Come on, this is fair use. We played it too long, that's why.

Speaker 3: 18:28

Yeah, you need shorter clips, I think.

Speaker 5: 18:31

Oh man, come on, we have no, not yet.

Speaker 2: 18:37

We have a minute and 10 seconds.

Speaker 3: 18:40

Hey look who's popping in.

Speaker 5: 18:42

Look at this. We just got booted for copyright Kennedy Off of what. We just got booted for copyright Kennedy Off of what we were streaming over YouTube. We're still on Twitter and Facebook and Locals.

Speaker 2: 18:56

We'll come back on YouTube in a minute, I'm sure.

Speaker 5: 19:00

This is temporarily blocked.

Speaker 4: 19:04

What happens there when you play stuff from other shows or something.

Speaker 5: 19:07

Yeah, but that should have been fair use, like we were playing it, but we're commenting on it like you should still you should.

Speaker 2: 19:13

Yeah, we'll be able, like I will be able, to appeal it and get it monetized, but I can't do that now yeah, all right, let's see, give him a minute it'll come on oh, this is terrible.

Speaker 5: 19:31

I hate when this stuff happens. We used to get this all the time when, uh, we did the, the movie and film series I had one copyright strike once for a rogan clip.

Speaker 4: 19:43

That was when tucker was on, but it was a video that I pre-recorded so they didn't actually take it down. It was just like can't monetize.

Speaker 5: 19:51

But then I appealed it and it was fine yeah, if it's fair use, they'll let you like, as long as you're using it for commentary, but when it's playing, where we should be back all right, I think we're back on youtube everybody. If you're on youtube's comment in the chat, let us know you see us think we're back on youtube everybody. If you're on youtube's comment in the chat, let us know you see us yeah we're back.

Speaker 5: 20:07

We're back, okay, all right, sorry about that, guys. This is, uh, you gotta, you gotta be careful with the fair use stuff, so we'll have to. We let it play too long, trying to not do what we did with the charlie kirk thing, but meanwhile, that's the way to do. It is the way we did it with charlie kirk. So, uh, kennedy hall popped in. Guys, look at that like, just like magic. Um, okay, so let's, let's try to get back to rob. How much time we got left on that clip we have a minute 10 seconds left we.

Speaker 3: 20:31

We got kicked off, but let's just edge it and see if we can go a little. Yeah, I think we.

Speaker 2: 20:36

I think we can right what do we have left in that part of the clip?

Speaker 5: 20:41

yeah, it was like we get to the patra mama stuff I want like how much is? Left in that clip.

Speaker 2: 20:45

A minute and seconds.

Speaker 5: 20:47

That's it.

Speaker 2: 20:48

Yeah, we'll split it into three.

Speaker 5: 20:52

No, that can't be. It should have been a nine-minute clip.

Speaker 4: 20:57

It was a seven-minute clip, seven minutes that should have been a nine-minute clip.

Speaker 5: 21:02

Let me see something.

Speaker 3: 21:04

Kennedy always has the best subtitles. He always has some good ones.

Speaker 2: 21:11

What is it tonight?

Speaker 3: 21:12

Let me see, maybe this is Full communion. I don't think anybody noticed mine 11 days left until what 47.

Speaker 5: 21:26

Okay, I know what we gotta do here. You know what we'll do, rob. We'll go right from the clip I posted on Twitter. We'll do it that way. So, okay, let's see. Okay, wait, I got you. I'm gonna send it to the show notes, so we'll get right into the juicy part is this grover person in the chat a troll or serious?

Speaker 4: 21:50

I never can tell. He's not, he's, he's, he's a troll he's, he's a, he's a friendly troll he's a friendly troll.

Speaker 5: 21:56

He's, he's a troll.

Speaker 2: 21:57

He's a friendly troll I don't know if he's friendly, but we allow him we like him, I like I them oh look at that Gasper's in the chat.

Speaker 5: 22:06

All right, so we're going to go from this. We'll go from this tweet. It should be like three minutes long, right?

Speaker 2: 22:10

Yep, no, it's a minute 21.

Speaker 5: 22:13

Is it? No, that's the wrong one.

Speaker 3: 22:17

These guys.

Speaker 5: 22:18

These guys.

Speaker 3: 22:19

You see what they do to us.

Speaker 5: 22:21

Is that all it is? A minute and fifty A minute and fifty.

Speaker 2: 22:25

That's it. Give me a second.

Speaker 5: 22:29

Oh man, you guys are better off when Rob's not here.

Speaker 2: 22:33

Watch yourself.

Speaker 5: 22:35

I can handle this. I can handle this technology thing Watch yourself All right, let's go. Okay, here we go.

Speaker 6: 22:42

All right, here we go. So Vatican II happened, and course they, they took the church and they they reformed it and they changed things in it, and it didn't necessarily agree with everything that went before it. And up to that point, yeah, you could find it agreed with itself. But all of a sudden you got something else, to the point where now I mean I mean we got a Pope that brought a South American idol into the church to worship. Really he did the Pacha.

Speaker 5: 23:17

I want to pause it, just so we don't get the strike. I'm afraid we're going to get the strike. So he's getting into Pacha mama here. This is good that we got Kennedy here. We'll get into the Kennedy thesis. So he's getting into the Kennedy thesis, we're getting into Pachamama. I'm just saying, well, look, tonight's clearly Lefebvre night, right? I mean we got.

Speaker 4: 23:37

Every night is Lefebvre night, amen.

Speaker 5: 23:39

We got the SSPX clan here, all right, so let's bring it back up. I just wanted to chop that up just so we didn't get that.

Speaker 6: 23:47

Let's finish it out now. I don't know what that is. It's kind of like a South American god Pachamama. Why would he do that? Kicked again, Good question.

Speaker 5: 23:59

Are you kidding?

Speaker 2: 24:01

Kicked again.

Speaker 5: 24:02

We can't do this clip.

Speaker 2: 24:03

We're done with that. See you guys later.

Speaker 3: 24:10

Yeah, I'm gonna talk about the book when it comes back on. Yeah, now we. Now we actually need you dinner I could make made of it.

Speaker 2: 24:18

It does make sense that they watch uh brogan's stuff closely. I mean, he's one of the biggest podcasts in the world.

Speaker 5: 24:24

It should also be one of those things where they want you to comment on it.

Speaker 3: 24:31

YouTube is one of the last bastions of early or mid-2000s stupidity or post-2020 stupidity. Twitter's gotten better. Facebook is moderately better. Youtube is still stuck in the past. When it lightens up boys, it's going to be the Wild West again Arizona territory on YouTube.

Speaker 5: 24:52

It's just so stupid. It's very frustrating. Man, it's such a good clip to be able to discuss and they won't freaking. Let you discuss it. It's so freaking, annoying. Well, yeah, able to discuss and they won't freaking.

Speaker 3: 25:05

Let you discuss it. It's so freaking annoying.

Speaker 5: 25:09

It's just really annoying.

Speaker 2: 25:11

I don't want to talk Kennedy's book until everybody comes back on. We have a very big.

Speaker 5: 25:17

We have 300 people on YouTube right now.

Speaker 3: 25:22

I'm having people message me. Hey, do you know that the AB stream is unavailable right now?

Speaker 2: 25:26

No idea.

Speaker 3: 25:30

I did not know that, yeah.

Speaker 4: 25:34

Did you guys see my tweet about the audiobook?

Speaker 5: 25:38

Yeah, I did, that was actually a fun tweet. Yeah, that was fun, that was good.

Speaker 4: 25:45

I'm right behind Pope Francis.

Speaker 3: 25:46

I follow the Pope, it's literally a statistic you do you literally follow the Pope?

Speaker 4: 25:53

I have more communion than the rest of you guys because I'm actually right underneath him. I submit to him.

Speaker 2: 26:00

It's in writing. Okay, we should be back.

Speaker 5: 26:05

I guess we can't do Bell Gibson tonight.

Speaker 3: 26:09

We can talk clearly, though, about the. Everyone knows about the Pachamama thing, unless you're just under rocks.

Speaker 2: 26:18

I'm still told that every time it's brought up that it's a lie, that it didn't really happen, every single time.

Speaker 5: 26:24

That's what everybody's posting underneath the mel clip. Right, everybody say like especially pope splainers. And yeah, because they all.

Speaker 3: 26:30

They all get their marching orders from jean-pierre of the white house. They all sound the exact same. Okay, so, pope, nothing ever happened.

Speaker 5: 26:37

Imagine falling for this ridiculous patra mama hoax. I thought everyone knew it was debunked, debunked already. Here is why literally no rational person believes this hoax anymore. We saw it with our eyes One, the tribe, was from an area that didn't worship Pachamama. She was worshipped in the mountains, not the jungle. That was animistic, not a God-based religion. Okay, so then, why even bring it in?

Speaker 2: 26:58

Well, if anything, that shows that it wasn't some organic development.

Speaker 5: 27:04

Exactly. Jim Russell has some um. The tribe was catholic, everyone there was baptized and confirmed. Okay, that makes it even worse. This is what you know. The problem is the artist also a catholic alive and says it was a logo symbol designed for the amazonian missions and that it represented life, not a God. Except it looks exactly like Pachamama Pachamama. It was part of a collection of symbols of the Amazon, including baskets, canoes and hats.

Speaker 2: 27:33

But you just admitted it wasn't a symbol of the Amazon. It was a symbol of the Amazon Trads, assert Francis said Pachamama but leave out the immediate Vatican clarification.

Speaker 5: 27:42

He meant so-called because no, no, no, I'm not even going to do this Like it was one of the most scandalous things that ever happened and none of the clarifications made anything any better. I don't know what to tell you guys. It was an insane thing. It brings back this whole thing where okay, here's my issue with what Mel did. He's discussing such inside baseball stuff that it leads to more confusion about Catholicism, like you just had this big Protestant evangelist go on with Rogan and everybody's going crazy about it and by Mel bringing that up.

Speaker 5: 28:18

So later in the interview, mel gets into the resurrection and talk about like the historical evidence of it and he brings in the Shroud of Turin and that clip is phenomenal. Then he goes in later on after that and he talks about typology. He talks about Golgotha and the skull of Adam under it and that's where Isaac was said to be sacrificed and he talks about typology. Those are all amazing. There's some really good parts of that interview. This one bonkers part, though I feel like it's such inside baseball. You can't be talking about that to the outside world because they're just going. Wait, what are you even saying right now, like joe is just baffled by everything mel said there, joe's baffled by a lot, though, that's true, it's what happens when you support marijuana legalization.

Speaker 3: 29:02

Love you, joe, if you ever see this but yeah, I mean really, though, I'm in a way like okay, I I disagree obviously with his mel's siri thesis right, whether or not he holds that, but in a general sense, I actually don't know. I almost kind of appreciate that he brings this up, even if it is inside baseball, and the reason for this is because, typically speaking and you guys have probably all had this like people who look in on the inside of catholicism or just have a cursory look at the moment are like what the heck are you guys doing? Like you guys are absolutely falling apart. In a way, I'd rather mel, give out, get out there and give like some semi-rational positions saying things like hey, this is a different religion because in in and of itself, it is a different religion in so many ways. We're going to talk tonight a little bit about kennedy's book. I'm actually super excited about kennedy's forthcoming book on modernism because so much of the discussion around whether it's the liturgy or pope francis or this or that, or is not being looked at through its root cause, which is modernism.

Speaker 3: 30:10

So many Catholics online, including traditionalists, throw that term around modernist, modernist, modernist but don't know what it means. Like, as an example, if I was to ask the average person in the chat. Who is George Tyrrell? Like three nerds would know who that is, kennedy would know who that is, and that's probably it right. Nobody knows who George Tyrrell is. If I ask you who Luther is, you'll know who Luther is, but if I ask you who Tyrrell is, you won't know who that is. If I was to ask you what is like the core synthesis of modernism and why is it so deadly, so many people will be like well, is it like? You know? Like just make stuff look more appealing to modern man? And I'm like, well, kind of in a cursory way, yeah, unlike the outside, but get to the source of it. My whole point with all this is just we need to have a serious discussion in the church and I think even just allowing the outside world to be like hey, yeah, stuff has gone wrong. At least we're being honest, you know, with ourselves.

Speaker 5: 31:05

Yeah, like hey, yeah, stuff has gone wrong. At least we're being honest, you know, with ourselves. Yeah, I would. I would have rather him just been like look, there was some shady stuff around. There's some shady stuff around francis. There's been a lot of shady stuff since the council. There's a lot, you know, I don't know into a more general is general, generalized thing. I think he just went so inside like it just seemed like wait, what are you talking about? Like I don't know. A lot of people are going to see this is a mel gibson and joe rogan interview. I just think it was a little bit off the rails for the average, funny enough.

Speaker 4: 31:33

I think the best way to talk to a a guy like joe rogan would be to bring up like the conspiracy of the freemasons or something like that exactly, yeah I've had experience like that in my own life with friends and family who are Catholic but not practicing, and I'll just say flat out I'll say the church is in a major crisis. Heretics are running the show. There's a plot to destroy the church from within.

Speaker 5: 31:58

From within.

Speaker 4: 31:59

And people think that Pope Francis isn't the Pope and they're like what? And I'm like do you want to talk about it? And they're like I do want to talk about it. Yeah, same experience. And then I've I've had to comment from, uh, people I know who have started coming back to mass after these conversations and they're like I was watching your show and I didn't realize that like I was entering a fight that I didn't, I didn't even know I was in, and it's kind of like exciting for them, because they're like you mean, there's this movement to destroy Christ's church and like you're battling that. And I'm like, well, I guess so and it seems noble to them, rather than just like you picked religion because it makes you feel good, it's like no, it's actually kind of like a war right now. It's almost more appealing.

Speaker 3: 32:39

Exactly.

Speaker 5: 32:40

Yeah, that's actually all right, can see that. And the thing is, I've had interesting conversations with normies about francis, because, especially when they'll, when you'll see some news article about francis blessing gay marriage or francis doing some crazy stuff, it's like all right. Listen, I'm not saying I believe this, but there's a theory. You know, it's like it's I don't know. The church is just so bonkers right now. It's interesting to me that Rogan had on a Christian scholar, biblical scholar he's Canadian, by the way, yeah, I know. And then he has Mel Gibson on. I think these conversations are good that they're out in the pot and maybe it'll make you listen.

Speaker 5: 33:26

The thing is we don't know what God will use to pull on someone's heartstrings Right Like I've had. I had a conversation with my sister one time and it made her start looking at a vocation because I just just said something off the cuff to her. It's like you don't know what's going to make somebody look into these things. Joe did talk about the Sh of turin. He was talking about typology in this episode. So maybe this two minute bonkers segment will pique somebody's interest and they'll just go and start researching it. So it's.

Speaker 3: 33:55

In a way, it's like more, it's more rational because, like I mean, rogan has this comedy clip out there where he was, like you know, five years ago I would have told you, you know, let's just say, jabs were the greatest thing ever, it was the greatest piece of technology ever. And now I'm running around saying, you know, did we land on the moon? And x, y and z.

Speaker 3: 34:16

The whole point of this is that I think that the average person with their head screwed on is like okay, you're not trying to sell me on some church that doesn't exist, some like Hollywood, early 20th century, medieval, hierarchical church You're telling me, like the square truth of it, your church right now is in a lot of turmoil and there's a battle going on. It makes sense. My parents, right, who aren't Catholic, can see that and can understand that way more than just being like well, okay, yeah, go to the new mass. I know it's ugly, but if you really strain and you tilt your head and you just pretend that nothing's going on and basically you take chloroform, you'll be fine, right?

Speaker 5: 34:54

Are we all prepared to have our faces with bulging eyes tomorrow in Sede Picante's thumbnail.

Speaker 2: 35:02

Only if they get sent to the diocese too.

Speaker 4: 35:06

I love that guy. Yeah, he's funny.

Speaker 2: 35:09

I like him too.

Speaker 4: 35:09

Sede. I call him Mrs Sede Bacante. He emailed me again. He wanted me to do a show. He's the only Sede that I'll talk to, because he has a sense of humor which is rare amongst Sedes. Just email me again because I have time in the new year, so just just so you know, sade.

Speaker 5: 35:31

All right. So all right. I guess it stinks that we can't play the rest of the clip. I'm a little upset about it. But so, kennedy, you've spent the last, so you wrote a book. What book's coming out first? Is it the, is it the charismatic book, or is it the modernism book?

Speaker 4: 35:45

charismatic book came out december 12th I was gonna say, one book's already out and modernism comes out. I think it's april oh man, which one was more difficult to research modernism took me took like five years off my life to write that book and you said that you had to like read pashindi like 10 times, which is not a light task. I probably read it like 30 times.

Speaker 3: 36:06

Yeah, that's not a light task at all.

Speaker 4: 36:09

And when I I didn't read it through 30 times. I read it through three or four times and then, doing the research, you reread so many paragraphs so many times to write one paragraph and if you add it all up, it's probably I read each paragraph 10 times. You know so, do the math Exactly 10 times. You know so, do the math Exactly. Um, but, yeah, I, uh, I started writing that book really in December of 2023. I wrote about 50 pages and, uh, I was planning on self-publishing but, uh, dan Burke reached out to me.

Speaker 4: 36:38

He, I don't know, he saw me talking with, yeah, he told me talking with Flanders and he convinced me to give Sophia a shot. And I talked to uh, charlie McKinney, who runs Sophia, and uh, I sent him the first 50 pages, which was actually I got rid of the most, most of the first 50 pages. I rewrote most of it and and changed it, but they liked the idea of the book and I'm really glad that I went with Sophia. The book was supposed to be about 250 pages. The last manuscript I submitted was like three, 50. Um, and uh, eric Sammons was actually helping me edit it because he works for them Right.

Speaker 4: 37:17

And uh he was amazing. He was really really, uh really really good at helping me. He's just eric is really good because he's in that world where he you know, he's obviously traditional but like crisis magazine, is kind of like a big tent for anyone right of center in the church, and so he just had the best suggestions about how to strengthen things like people aren't going to understand this and whatever.

Speaker 5: 37:39

So I probably spent yeah, because you, you're aiming for a normie audience, right, you're not aiming for the SSPX audience, like you want the general church to understand this major crisis that has entered into the church here. This is not. This is not a book for uber trads.

Speaker 4: 37:56

This is a book for the normie Catholic, trying to make sense of what we're talking about, right now, yeah, there's a fine line because, like, if you read some of the great books on the crisis in the church like the Great Facade is a really good one I love the Great Facade by Ferrara and Woods and it's amazing but it's a traditional Catholic book Like there's a lot of like references in there to like figures from literature and things like that that you're not even going to understand. Understand. Like I had one part in my uh, in my modernism book where I go on this tirade about the French revolution and the different figures and comparing them to the popes and whatever. It was very lyrical and I liked it, but Eric was like no one's going to know what you're talking about unless they are nerds that you know read books on the French revolution, which is true. So it's like why leave that part in there? It doesn't make any sense. So it's a fine line, though, because on the one hand, you don't want to not say the full truth just because you don't want to tick people off, but at the same time, you want to find a way to deliver the message with the fullness of what you're trying to say, but in a way that's more palatable, like I go after.

Speaker 4: 39:10

And when I say go after, like, I bring up john paul ii and cardinal ratzinger tons of modernism in their early work. Tons, exactly well tons of modernism and jp2's work as pope, do you know? Like, for example uh, people think synodality is from pope francis. It's not even close to that. That's not even close to the truth. Like paul the sixth, yeah, but then john paul ii wrote a document like in 1983 or something like that, and uh, talking about the norms for the synodal process and like, if you just took the author name off, it's like, oh, pope francis wrote this and he talks about how those early synods, I will say, like those synods under jp2 and benedict they were clarifying synods.

Speaker 4: 39:55

No, they weren't like that's, that's not. They weren't at all. It was literally, he said in it, in the norms for the synodal process. It sounded like they read Pashendi and read it. And Pashendi, by the way, is the document that Pope St Pius X wrote outlining the doctrines of the modernists. And then there was the accompanying document, lamentaboli Sane, which was the list of condemned principles, condemned propositions, which was like his syllabus of errors, and about two thirds of those were of uh Loisy and about another third were of Tyrell, which were the two uh modernists that were excommunicated in 1907. And, um, it's like they read Pashendi and then use it as a how-to manual of how to write a church document.

Speaker 2: 40:40

It was the opposite of the point.

Speaker 4: 40:41

So, like he talks, so John Paul II talks about how, in the synodal process, we will use this as a way of interpreting Vatican II, which will continue to develop with the process. So just think about that. For a second, vatican II is an event that took place in the 1960s and in the 1980s. They're going to have meetings about how to interpret an event that will continue to develop after it's finished.

Speaker 5: 41:09

Yeah, the seeds of the things we're seeing in Francis really are there. See, I remember having hope that when Francis called the synod on the family, that all because we were hearing all these wacky things, because we were hearing all these wacky things, francis was talking about people, um, bringing like rabbits, and who am I to judge? And I'm like, oh, he's calling the synod on the family, maybe we'll get some kind of clarifying document after that. And we got mayhem and it's like every synod since has just been more and more mayhem that has come forth. But I didn't realize that was going on. I wasn't paying attention to this stuff under jp2 and rat singer it's before the internet.

Speaker 4: 41:50

so exactly how are you going to read it? How are you going to read a transcript of a speech that pope john paul ii gives to bishops in 1983, unless you literally write a letter to the Holy see for information and get it in the mail?

Speaker 4: 42:06

And that's the kind of stuff that Michael Davies did, but even Michael Davies. I love Michael Davies. Michael Davies is in the Mount Rushmore of of post conciliar authors, but he writes books for traditional Catholics and it's amazing. That's not a slight, it's just. That's what he did and one of the reasons why.

Speaker 5: 42:28

He's like a great gateway he is. Michael Davies is a great. Like you, you come across tradition and then you hear Michael Davies talking like whoa. I loved listening to my first couple of Michael Davies talks were like holy cow.

Speaker 4: 42:43

That's why, like, when I talk to people about the SSPX and stuff, I have a general rule of thumb I'm like, if you haven't read, like if you're against it I mean, if you're someone who's like I, the SSPX is in schism I'm like, okay, if you haven't read the Apologia Pro Lefebvre, the biography of Archbishop Lefebvre they've uncrowned them and open letter to confuse Catholics Like you don't have the right to an opinion. Like I don't want to talk to you. There's just so much going on there. But the problem is is that people aren't willing to put in the work? No, I agree, they're just not willing to put in the work.

Speaker 4: 43:18

I've had conversations with people, you know like, when we I used to be. You know like, uh, you know I used to be like, uh, yeah, exactly, great gateway, that's funny. I used to be like, uh, you know, novus ordo, conservative guy and was in all these like organizations and stuff and was going to be like on the speaking circuit in canada and whatever. And um, when I outed myself as a traditionalist, had all these talks, people wanted to have me, the talks with me and whatever, you know, pull me out of my schism and stuff.

Speaker 4: 43:51

And um, I would be like, hey, will you read this book? And they're like, well, I don't have time. And I'm like, well, I don't have time to talk to you, then Like I don't know what we're doing here and uh. So that's ultimately why I decided to do the book, because it's a mainstream publisher it's Sophia, I mean. They obviously do traditional stuff, but they've got a lot of stuff on there that is palatable to, like, an Ignatius Press audience, which is not a bad thing. I'm just saying that they have lots of general Catholic interest stuff.

Speaker 5: 44:20

No, I would say Sophia is definitely a mainstream publishing house, like for sure.

Speaker 4: 44:24

You know, and it's like okay, the book is published by them. As far as I know, I don't think it's being done by crisis, I think it's Sophia proper. I haven't seen it on the crisis brand. I'm not sure. Maybe they'll change that, I don't know. So they can't, you know, put me in the camp with the infiltration thing. So I'm hoping that people will, and it's called what Happened to Catholicism with a nice beautiful image of Pope Pius X. That seems like something someone will see in a bookstore and just pick it up and be like probably a good question to ask so you were writing this over five years, what I remember your first couple of videos when you went after Ralph Martin.

Speaker 5: 45:04

You didn't actually go after ralph martin. You started criticizing charismatics and then ralph martin responded on his channel and then you went back and you came back harder, but then you went. Okay, I need to write a book on this and the thing is like a lot of people like, um, ralph martin had a good book, right? What was this? What was ralph martin's good book?

Speaker 5: 45:26

fulfillment of all desire fulfillment of all desire, which was a very orthodox book.

Speaker 5: 45:30

I remember, um, I me and rob have spoken about our issues with the charismatic stuff. Growing up, like my parents made me go to life teen stuff, I had to go to some some charismatic conference when I was a kid and I mean I just told this story but like I was in this crowd of 200 kids and they were all receiving the Holy Spirit and everybody around me was crying and I remember sitting there as a 13 year old kid like why am I not receiving the Holy Spirit? Why is everybody around me crying and I'm not getting the Holy Spirit? Like this I was actually questioning I'm like God, I'm open to it, like I don't understand what's going on here. And it kind of threw me off when that happened and I think it led to my period of time where I was never an atheist but I lived as though God did not exist. Rob, rob, I don't want to speak for you, but, rob, you've talked about how, like this whole thing kind of was always like it just didn't fit anything for you, right?

Speaker 2: 46:31

uh, I, yeah, I think well, not well. So, number one, we had to do it for, like confirmation prep, we had to go to once a month, uh, net um masses is what they were called, and then we had to go to a steubenville, um, you know, led a conference for a weekend retreat. But um, yeah, just, I just have a very different temperament than a lot of um people in the charismatic movement, it would seem, uh, people who are, I'm not, into the happy, just super smiley and excited.

Speaker 3: 47:03

It's like yeah get away from me please yeah, and I grew up in the protestant charismatic movement, so we got the, I got the legit thing and you guys got the knockoff brand and we always call it the knockoff brand it just always felt so fake.

Speaker 2: 47:17

If it fake because it is fake yeah, okay it's. It's just a facade that they're putting on and you can tell.

Speaker 5: 47:25

Oh my gosh, Matt Gaspers with his long hair playing at a life team.

Speaker 2: 47:30

I can see that.

Speaker 3: 47:33

Matt Gaspers, didn't you say that in your story you had long hair and you were playing drums at World?

Speaker 5: 47:40

Youth.

Speaker 3: 47:40

Day for JP2 or something like that he played the guitar.

Speaker 5: 47:43

I think he did All right. So, kennedy, let's get into it. What is it that makes you go down that road to write that book, and what were some of the most shocking things you discovered as you were writing it?

Speaker 4: 47:53

The reason I wrote the book is because, uh, I like I'm a cradle Catholic in the sense that I was baptized as an infant but didn't practice the faith growing up in any meaningful way. My family I'm the only one in my family that practices on like both sides, even in Italy, on like both sides, even in Italy. And uh, I, uh, when I came back to the church, um, I had a big kind of come to Jesus moment when I was on a pilgrimage slash mission thing in Mexico and I was a chaperone for a high school trip for my, the school board I was working for at the time and it was run by renewal ministries and uh rob martin's outfit yeah, it wasn't with him, but it was with another gentleman who was an amazing man and I respect him greatly.

Speaker 4: 48:40

Um, and I didn't know anything about anything like. I didn't know what a charismatic was, what a opus day was, what a traditional mass was. I didn't know anything about any of the things going on in the church. I had no clue whatsoever. All I remember was the you know the odd school mass I had to go to growing up and like a Christmas mass or whatever. That was all I ever had as an experience, and like the stupid religion classes that I took that were nonsense and um, so now the, the, the trip was charismatic. Now, when I look back, it was charismatic in a sense, like there was, there was an atmosphere about it. Now that I understand what the charismatic renewal is, I see how it was like that. But it was like charismatic light.

Speaker 4: 49:23

You know, like one night there was some kind of praise and worshiping music while we prayed kind of praise and worshiping music while we prayed. If I'm being honest, it wasn't even the really cheesy rock and roll stuff. It was this band called um, united pursuit, which is, uh, actually they're quite a nice sounding band. They're kind of like, uh, indie. I don't even know what the, I'm not really, I don't know anything about modern music, but it's like indie-ish style with cellos and pianos and guitars and they were beautiful musicians, so like it was actually quite pleasing and moving music and that's kind of. But a point is it wasn't like hillsong or something you know and um and.

Speaker 4: 49:58

But anyway, like on that trip, I prayed for the first time in my life, in the long time since I was young. I did have faith as a kid through various things, but I didn't wasn't formed and uh, but I, you know, prayed. I like 25 or 26, just found out we were expecting our first child, so this is like 10 years ago. He's nine now and uh, I was just open, like I just, you know, I prayed the first honest prayer in my adult life. You know, and stuff happens when you do that, like it was a come to jesus moment.

Speaker 4: 50:29

The next morning after this we go to the shrine of our lady of guadalupe, I break out this little plastic rosary that I was carrying around with me, that I was given for the trip, and uh didn't even know how to pray it properly. So I prayed, uh, the our father, on the crucifix and the glory be on the our father beads and the hail mary's on the hail m things Didn't even know what a rosary mystery was. Prayed it through twice. I was blubbering like a baby. It was like I was back. You know it was. It was a big deal. So when I came home I was on fire for my faith and I had lots to learn. But it was a true conversion because, like all my major habitual sins literally stopped overnight. It was a. It was a really big deal.

Speaker 4: 51:09

So I knew something had happened to me eventually go to my first confession, all these kinds of things. So I'm like want to know more about the faith. So obviously I had this extremely positive experience. I read the luminous mysteries. Yeah, I had this really positive experience and I was being honest and I wanted to know more. And so I'm asking the people who were associated with the renewal thing for advice on the faith, as you would.

Speaker 4: 51:38

And uh, so I was sort of just kind of fell into charismatic stuff and uh, it wasn't like immediate. Uh, like for about a year I was still commuting to my place of work and like was just having a baby and we were just living in a different city than even this sort of community was at. So it wasn't like I was in it all the time. But eventually we moved and I'm in this setting where there's lots of charismatics running a lot of stuff and they're like you should come to this thing, you should come to that thing. So I just, you know, go to these things and then eventually're like you should be on this prayer team.

Speaker 4: 52:10

So I was like I did some of that stuff, like I was, you know, you pray over someone or whatever, like it's so weird to think about now, but like you know, that was just what I was being told, was what you're doing. And I'm thinking to myself okay, like I had a conversion, these people were a part of it, they're great people and they're saying this is the, what on fire catholics do. I'll just go for it. And uh, pretty soon I started to see things where I just in my gut was thinking this is a little weird. A big thing was the tongues thing. I never spoke in tongues, like in the fake sense, because no one actually speaks in tongues in the charismatic renewal. It's complete hysteria. Um, I actually don't think it's demonic in most cases, because there is a true demonic tongues and that's not strange noises.

Speaker 4: 52:50

That's actual languages, which may happen, but that's not the charismatic version I think it's more just, I think it's more just hysteria um or faking it, but um I started seeing this stuff.

Speaker 5: 53:00

A lot of people with that one, I bet.

Speaker 4: 53:02

Well, it's true it's not real, like I mean, it's just it's not in, it's not. It's what we can talk about, the history, but but it's just not real. Even the term glossolalia is like from the 18, it's like from the late 1800s. It's not a real word. It was made up by, uh, uh, liberal Protestant scholars and it's a mix of the word Glossa, which means language, and La Lane, which means babble. It means babbling language. It doesn't even mean speaking in tongues, but anyway, um, so, uh, that was a big thing for me, though, cause all these people are speaking in tongues, so to speak, and, uh, I had enough sense.

Speaker 4: 53:36

I'm kind of a skeptic by nature, which was the reason why I had sort of rejected what little faith I had, because I was a skeptic. Um, and it's the reason why I didn't fall for COVID stuff, because I'm a skeptic, um, but it's also the reason I came back to the church, ironically, is because, like, I was looking at religions as a skeptical person and only the Catholic religion actually had claims to truth that were legitimate when I followed them through. So the whole tongues thing I was like, ok, lord, if this is real, I'll receive the gift. You know, I didn't ask for it, but it was like, if it's your will, I'll receive the gift. You know, uh, I didn't ask for it, but it was like if it's your will, I'll do this. So I would just pray for it.

Speaker 4: 54:13

Nothing ever happened, obviously because I wasn't about to fake it, cause I don't get whipped up into group thing, and I remember being in these settings and they're like we're going to pray for you to get the gift of tongues. I was like, okay, sounds good. So people lay hands on you and all that kind of stuff and nothing happens, you know. And uh, and then I remember I started seeing things like just really weird deliverance stuff.

Speaker 4: 54:36

Like I was at one event and I was standing in no, it was standing in the back. It was in a high school gym and I'm at the back like waiting for people to come pray with you, which is all this. All sounds so weird now, but it is what it is in the context. And uh, there's this lady standing, you know, four or five feet away from me, to my left, and she's like a guru in the renewal. She's known for her like gifts and all this kind of stuff, and some young lady walks up to her and they pray with her and she's mutters something in some guttural, weird language and then the girl just like falls to the floor and it looks like she's being electrocuted for like an hour.

Speaker 4: 55:08

Yeah yeah wiggling around and just like things like that and I and I I started to feel eerie, like I started to get that feeling where, like when you're a kid, it's like when you're a kid and you stumble upon a bunch of teenagers like doing drugs or something, and you're like I'm not supposed to be here unless you're anthony, and you're like where do I sign up?

Speaker 3: 55:26

I'm just kidding, but yeah, that's exactly how I felt the first time I came on this show.

Speaker 4: 55:34

I was like I shouldn't be here.

Speaker 5: 55:36

You gotta keep the laughs coming.

Speaker 4: 55:37

This is good, but that was like little things like that kept happening. You know, I saw this one lady. She was like pulling demons out of a person. You know these charismatics and this was like a person I won't say her name, but she's like famous. She's like she travels around the world doing deliverance. When Charismatics will say things like, oh, you know, we follow the rules, it's like no, they don't. It's still the same as it was in the 1970s. And so I just started questioning things and eventually I found tradition, thankfully by about 2018. This is about a two-year process.

Speaker 4: 56:08

I found tradition and just left it behind. Left it behind and I didn't really think about it and then, uh, over time, I just kept eventually started thinking about it again and looking into stuff and, uh, I just realized it was alarming, how heretical it was. Like it's, it's. It's a real heresy. I don't mean that in like the colloquial sense. The charismatic renewal is a heresy, like one day it will have to be officially condemned by the church. Somehow it is pentecostalism and pentecostalism is a heresy of protestantism, like pentecostals are heretics in the mind of traditional protestants trinitarian they're like some of them aren't.

Speaker 4: 56:45

Some of them aren't, but the charismatic renewal by its theology does cast doubt on the divinity of Christ. It leads to a type of adoptionism, because they claim that Christ received the Holy Ghost at his baptism, which is totally insane because he's consubstantial with the father and then his anyway. It doesn't make any sense. So there's many, many problems there. So that's so. I basically ended up writing the book because I'm already canceled. I am nuclear. No one, except for people like you, want to talk to me.

Speaker 5: 57:17

I don't really want to talk to you but I feel awful saying no. Something I do have to say. People think you're this mean guy. I cannot tell you guys. First of all, kennedy's canadian and I'm now friends with a bunch of canadians not just you and I've never met a more polite people like they're just annoying. They're just so polite, like they're so worried they're gonna offend you all the time but like we I, when me and kennedy hung out at the at the priest cancel priest conference like he was just the nicest guy. He wanted to go up and meet Abby Johnson. He got a picture with Abby. People think because Kennedy's SSPX he shuns you. If you're not, that's not even remotely the case. It's just he's telling you what he's come across in his research. It is he's going to yeah exactly.

Speaker 3: 58:07

I have a question for Kennedy. So I've not read your book, but I assume your work talks about the whole. When it comes to laying on of hands receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost, my experience was I came into the church and, technically, before I was formally received into the church, I went on this retreat Right, and it was a St Paul's outreach retreat Didn't know what it was right, and if people don't know, st Paul's Outreach is a charismatic youth movement inside of the church and so I went on this retreat and I and my friends who all converted with me if you guys want to see their stories, you can watch our joint interview that we had on Pints with Aquinas way back in the day but we were all gun gun shy of charismatic stuff. So we all show up on this retreat and all of a sudden the priests are talking about speaking in tongues and prophecy and laying on hands. We were like what the heck is this? This is kind of the stuff that we intentionally left because we were trying to become Catholic, anyway. So we went through all of this During the middle of this conference.

Speaker 3: 59:10

They bring out the Eucharist and the monstrance, they're playing their rock music and the priests are walking around laying on hands of people and they're falling out in the spirit and stuff like that.

Speaker 3: 59:20

And I remember asking in this context, this priest comes up to me and he's like, do you want to be filled with the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

Speaker 3: 59:26

And I said, well, to do that. I mean like I've been baptized and he'd be received into the church, but like I more formally and fully received that at confirmation. And then I'm told by his assistant next to me, well, okay, yeah, you received the Holy Ghost in confirmation, but really by us laying our hands on you what it's like is in confirmation it's like a drop of food dye being dropped onto some water and the Holy Ghost when we lay our hands on you, it's like taking a spoon and whipping up all of the dye everywhere. I was like this sounds like an eighth sacrament to me, some type of special, extra thing. So can you speak on that and talk about you? Know I'm sure you included into your thing, but can you speak on that whole? Talk about you? Know I'm sure you include it into your thing, but can you speak on that whole notion? Cause I know artificial of Feb essentially hinted at it in in his lifetime when it came to the charismatic movement.

Speaker 4: 1:00:18

Yeah, archbishop Lefebvre's declaration, which shout out to Bishop uh Strickland, who put out that article, saying that Archbishop Lefebvre's declaration is his own declaration, which was like extremely powerful.

Speaker 1: 1:00:31

I didn't know that.

Speaker 4: 1:00:33

I actually was kind of tearing up reading it because he was like his declaration is my own and then he posted it and so, anyway, archbishop Lefebvre, in the declaration he says I reject the neo-Protestant Pentecostal movement or whatever, which is charismatic rule. It wasn't called charismatic in French, then Itestant Pentecostal movement or whatever, which is charismatic rule. It wasn't called charismatic in French, then it was called Pentecostal Same thing, cause that's what it is. Anyway, uh, the baptism in the Holy ghost. So the baptism in the Holy ghost, uh, comes from Wesleyan Christianity. Uh, for those who don't know, it's like the holiness movement that comes out of England late 1800s and, uh, out of england late 1800s and, in fairness, I don't think wesley was a scoundrel and he was trying to understand the scriptures and, like a lot of protestants, he gets to these ideas that sound kind of catholic. He just doesn't know what he's doing.

Speaker 4: 1:01:20

Yeah and uh, they talked about this thing called the second blessing or basically the confirmation in grace. So the idea is like, if you read through the scriptures, you read about about, you know, being strengthened in your faith, you read about the grace that these apostles have for martyrdom and all these kinds of things, the receiving of the Holy ghost and you want to, you know, experience these things right. I mean, obviously it sounds like a great idea. So the idea was basically like if you had received the second blessing, you would basically be perfected, which is kind kind of what confirmation teaches. It makes you what we would say is a perfect christian. It doesn't mean that you are perfect in your ways. It means that you've been perfected. It's like the sacrament is perfected, it's this, it's the final sacrament of initiation. So this, the whole initiatory aspect, is done and there is a special outpouring of the holy ghost which gives you the strength basically to be a soldier of Christ. This is basic catechism stuff anyway. But how do you demonstrate that you have had the second blessing? I mean, it's anyone's guess, because Protestantism is what's made up, so it's you know you don't sin anymore or you manifest gifts or whatever. You can make it up as you go. So that wasn't really fleshed out fully. Whatever, you can make it up as you go, so it wasn't really fleshed out fully.

Speaker 4: 1:02:33

Early 1900s, late 1800s, early 1900s um, there are some move movers and shakers in the uh revivalist movement going on in the states. Um, frank sanford, uh dowie I always forget his name was francis dowie and he was dowie and um and charles parham. So yeah, dow, dowie and sanford were like those kind of guys you read about in like books about cults. They started these basically cults. They were not. They were cults bible things talking about second coming and all this kind of stuff and they were taking from this holiness movement thing which was gaining steam in america and it took on a very distinctly american, uh personality, meaning it got more extreme and weird. Yeah, and uh, you guys love your religious cults down there.

Speaker 4: 1:03:20

I'm just saying and uh it's true and uh, so, um, these guys believe they were like the second coming or the this yeah, they were the second elijah. Uh, they, they doing the Sabatine things, like they would, you know, do some of the old law things and whatever. They made cults. They obviously were financial frauds and they were abusive and they were perverts and it was the whole thing was this uh, uh, he was a free will Baptist and uh, he was a preacher. He starts his own religion and he goes and shadows these guys and tries to take from their methods. He starts a Bible cult in, uh, topeka, kansas, and uh, it was called, uh, something folly, it was a, it was a mansion there and, um, he basically is coming to these similar conclusions, trying to give his version of religion, which is more popular, and talks about this baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Speaker 4: 1:04:16

Because they read scripture poorly and they don't understand that when it says the Holy Ghost appeared at Christ's baptism by St John the Baptist, it doesn't mean Christ received the Holy Ghost. It means that the Trinitarian power was demonstrated, with God the Father speaking, the Holy Ghost in the form of the dove and God the Son. It was a Trinitarian manifestation. It wasn't a reception of the Holy Ghost by Christ. So baptism in the Holy Spirit becomes this whole thing, and they start calling on the Holy Ghost to baptize people and all these kinds of things. And then they come to this conclusion that if you were truly baptized in the Holy Ghost, that you would receive the gifts of the apostles.

Speaker 4: 1:04:56

Yeah, and so they allege that it was New Year's Eve of 1900. So, at the clock striking midnight, when it turns 1901, basically that time and um, uh, allegedly the first woman who had been baptized in the Holy ghost, sorry, the first one of the people who had been baptized in the Holy ghost. Her name was Agnes Osmond, and she becomes the first person to speak in tongues, since, like the time of the apostles. And, uh, she was allegedly speaking Chinese and all this kind of stuff. Turns out she had actually trained for the Chinese missions. You can find this in old newspapers.

Speaker 5: 1:05:36

Oh, so she was like a charlatan.

Speaker 4: 1:05:40

She was actually a victim, Like she was she'd been trained for the yeah, like she'd been trained for the Chinese missions.

Speaker 4: 1:05:46

She chickened out, she passed her exams. I have I'll cite it in the book I have the old newspaper clippings and I cite them. You can find them all digitized now from her local paper and I think it was like Minnesota or something. It's literally like congratulate. It's like, you know, like everything used to be in the newspapers. It was like the Facebook wall or whatever they call it before Facebook. So it was like to so-and-so on his 40th birthday.

Speaker 4: 1:06:16

Congratulations to so-and-so on finishing her exams for the chinese missions. You know so obviously she was trained in chinese and uh. So she starts allegedly speaking chinese and writing in chinese. So what did they do in topeka, kansas? They found a chinaman. That's how they wrote it in the paper. They found they found a chinaman to uh, look at her writings and his response was maybe it's jap, let's go because it was not chinese. And then they have pictures of it in the paper and looks like something your toddler would write. It was like scribbles and uh.

Speaker 4: 1:06:41

But here's the funny thing they believe that she was baptized in the holy ghost and they all received it. They also believe that speaking in tongues was real languages. They didn't believe it was boom shakalaka, they believed it was real languages, exactly. So then they got this idea. Here's the new selling point. Also, this guy, charles parham who, by the way, the pentecostals point to as their hero and the charismatics do as well and the charismatic authors peter herbeck, ralph martin, mary healy, patty Mansfield, all the big players that are still around, still teaching, still preaching. They have in their writings, in multiple places, that Pope Leo XIII prayed for the 20th century to be consecrated to the Holy Ghost. And that's true. And he's saying the Veni Creator Spiritus, on New Year's Eve of 1900 to 1901. They allege that the Holy Ghost appeared in Topeka, kansas, as a response to Pope Louis XIII's invocation of the Holy Ghost to renew the church.

Speaker 3: 1:07:44

And how can you hold a traditional ecclesiology? That's real.

Speaker 4: 1:07:48

I have like I have that that's in writing and it's in my book and you and they and they talk about this and you can find it on, like the cbn specials where they do charismatics yeah, 50 year anniversary.

Speaker 3: 1:07:58

And isn't parham a homosexual like? Wasn't he accused of homosexuality and he was arrested?

Speaker 4: 1:08:03

for it. He was arrested for uh diddling a? Uh 20 year old jewish boy yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3: 1:08:08

So it's like that. That's your. I don't know why I'm smiling at that your coming of the Holy.

Speaker 4: 1:08:12

Ghost movement. So he was yeah, and you know what his defense was, why he got off the charges. No, I don't know he confessed to it in writing and then he redacted. He said I am a hopeless degenerate physically. I cannot be held accountable for what I do in my sleep it's in the senate, it's in like the san antonio gazette or whatever, from 1907.

Speaker 5: 1:08:34

So so these are the beginnings of this whole thing, and you're saying the catholics that endorse this even refer to this event and they they're trying to find a way to find a pre-conciliar Pope is the reason.

Speaker 4: 1:08:50

That's. That's. That's crazy. Even more than that, they believe there was a, a nun blessed Elena Guerrero Guerrero, from Luca, italy, my mom's hometown. I used to live there I was, I'm Luqueze, so that piqued my interest. She was part of like the Holy spirit sisters, just like Archbishop Lefebvre was the.

Speaker 2: 1:09:11

Holy Ghost fathers.

Speaker 4: 1:09:15

And, by the way, where did Archbishop Lefebvre start the revival of tradition in America? 20 minutes down the road from Topeka, kansas a little bit of symmetry there. And and he was the head of the Holy Ghost fathers, so Providence is kind of funny sometimes, but in any event, and he was the head of the Holy Ghost Father, so providence is kind of funny sometimes, but in any event, she prayed for, she petitioned Pope Leo XIII in writing, and I cite all this. It's all cited, like everything I'm saying. There's a footnote for it. And she wanted Pope Leo XIII to basically encourage Catholics to have a deeper relationship with the Holy Ghost. Sounds great, good idea. I'm all for it, and it's really delusional. Yeah, so he did.

Speaker 4: 1:10:02

The general consensus is that she's a blessed and she was a blessed in the 50s or something. She's a legit blessed and so basically, the consensus is basically yeah, you know, he appealed to the, the, the desires of this Holy nun, as popes do with certain, you know, certain great spiritual, spiritual masters and whatever in the church's history. And so they say that it was her promptings who got Leo the 13th to do that, and then it was. They go back to like the 1870s because that's when she was writing this stuff and that it was answered by an outpouring of the Holy Ghost on Protestant in Kansas. So right away, right away and I see someone in the chat talking about Duquesne, I'll talk about that too, right away. It's so insane because this is a complete denial of ecclesiology. It is impossible. And what's really unfortunate about this is that these original charismatic theologians in scare quotes these were people who were coming of age in like the 1960s. So their pope of their most of their life was pope pius the 12th, that they were taking their. They were memorizing their baltimore catechism under pope pius the 12th in the 1950s.

Speaker 4: 1:11:25

Okay, pope pius 12th wrote in mestitia corporis, like in their lifetime. He was very clear and he's just writing what has been written forever that those separated from the church and faith and governance meaning by what? Their religious doctrines and by real schism and uh, he says they do not have the divine spirit. Capital d capital s the holy ghost. So you can't have the divine spirit. Capital D capital S the Holy Ghost.

Speaker 4: 1:11:51

So you can't have the Holy Ghost if you're not in the church. It is an impossibility what God may do in your life individually to push you towards conversion. That's totally subjective and that's, you know, everyone receives the grace is sufficient to save their soul, whether they choose to listen to them or not. That's a teaching of the church as well. That's in scripture. So they believe something totally contrary to what is required to be believed by Catholics. It's a heresy, like it's not just, oh, you're mistaken, it's like no, this is objectively black and white against Catholic teaching, and that's the beginning of it. That enough. That alone is enough to condemn the entire process. And we haven't even talked about the fake tongues and the deliverance, the covenant communities, all these things that manifest from it.

Speaker 4: 1:12:47

But that alone begins in heresy, and that all those covenant communities go on in the Catholic version version of this they're all technically ecumenical, yeah uh, which is why they can still operate, because they're not under the jurisdiction of the church yeah, I got, I got, um, I got a letter sent to a bishop because of, uh, my, my, my, um anti-acumenism, my anti-acumenism.

Speaker 5: 1:13:13

That was part of, uh, the letter that was sent. I'm not ecumenical, that's good. Um, all right. So, let's all right. So can I say one more thing, though?

Speaker 4: 1:13:24

just show you how blasphemous it is. Blasphemous p Peter Herbeck, still around 1996, whatever their newsletter for renewal ministries was called at the time. John Venari cited it in one of his articles. God rest his soul. Peter Herbeck compared the apparitions of our lady of Fatima and the Topeka outpouring. He compared them as being equal in drama and power. So like these charismatics are so deep with their belief that charles parham, who was a sodomite and a freemason and an alchemist and a clan supporter, if that's not enough, for goodness sake, um, he also had two failed missions to find the uh holy grail in the holy land, as you do, and um, it was already found.

Speaker 3: 1:14:11

Indiana jones already found this, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 4: 1:14:15

So, so that is the so. So that man's fraud, that man's utter fraud who, ironically, that guy had a more orthodox understanding of speaking in tongues than charismatics, because he thought it was real languages. He was more orthodox. Uh, that's pope leo the 13th prayer. That's the answer to pope leo the 13th prayer.

Speaker 4: 1:14:39

Yeah, and they're like that's insane, that's insane it's not even in the realm of consideration, that like that I could write that I don't need a book. Obviously, whatever follows is absurd, but there's so much more do you get into medjugorje at all? No, I don't I don't in the book because medjugorje is so big and there have been other books written on it. Well, there's been many books written on it that I don't need to write another book on that.

Speaker 5: 1:15:05

I just mean the ties of the charismatic movement to Medjugorje. That's what brought me into this as a kid. My parents went to Medjugorje when I was a kid and came back and my parents were on fire for God and that's why I had to go to all these charismatic things there's, and my parents were on fire for God and that's why I had to go to all these charismatic things. Like there's a very tight connection between those two things. But it's just interesting to me that like the facade, like even John Paul II giving his blessing to all this stuff, but I guess, like that's why. I guess why your book on charismatics and the modernism book kind of go hand in hand with each other, because you kind of you see that the charismatic renewal is modernism.

Speaker 4: 1:15:51

Yeah, it's the religion of modernism. Yeah, modernism is based on evolution of dogma. So obviously, dogma. Dogma is changing now because Protestants are prophets. Dogma is changing now because Protestants are prophets.

Speaker 4: 1:16:01

By the way, patty Mansfield, who is like the first like young person to get the Holy ghost, she went to this retreat. It's called the Duquesne outpouring. Happened in Duquesne university, pittsburgh, at a retreat. And uh, she writes, and it's in the spirit in horizons, which is like the holy ghost fathers have completely descended into hell. Uh, after the fev left. And um and uh, they had these really liberal priests at the time and they were running this retreat. And guess who the keynote speaker was for this co-ed retreat for university students sharing a house so ridiculous I can't even believe that this was happening. And uh and uh, the speaker who was presenting to them that weekend was a woman, was a woman Protestant pastor and she was teaching them how to receive the Holy Ghost, as you do right. And Patty Mansfield writes and I cite this as well in my book that she says that this woman spoke with the authority of the apostles. She understood the Holy Ghost the way the apostles did. It's just like it's.

Speaker 4: 1:17:06

It's. It's so many times in the book I write. If it wasn't so tragic, it would be comical.

Speaker 3: 1:17:11

Exactly the sad thing. The real sad thing, though and you mentioned this earlier about modernism I have this same issue when it comes to the new mass conversation. You bring all these stuff up and they look at you like you're just this insane person. Like what are you saying? Like the church has blessed all these things, yada, yada, yada. And then you say, well, have you read these sources? Have you read patty mansfield? You have actually looked into what she said.

Speaker 3: 1:17:35

I'm I'm reminded of um I forget his name, I think it's renero catamasa. He was that former francis yeah, that former franciscan priest to the pope. He, uh, he has this famous clip on ewtn that really hits with me, because he talks about how, before the council in seminary, we would call the protestants and the orthodox the adversaries, which is the term that you find in pre-conciliate manual textbooks. But after the council, I received the baptism of the holy ghost, and I saw them as brothers and sisters in christ. He's also the same guy who says we have lost the right to preach the gospel to the jews, right, and he's also the. He's the, the preacher to john paul ii. The problem is that people don't want to read, they don't want to look into this stuff and I don't know if it's because of laziness or if it's because, like, they'll recognize how bad this stuff is.

Speaker 5: 1:18:25

I think there's. Well, I think that's part of it, nick, I do. I think that people look it, people have this um, catholic answers view of how the church works. Right, and to them it's catholic answers is, well, I think that, like even me, I was formed by watching Catholic answers and hearing those arguments, so you kind of have this idea of the church. It's like, well, ok, if the pope said it like that, the pope has the power to bind and loose, and it has to be what the pope said, because he has the power to bind, like that, just so. Then when you start hearing these things, you start it.

Speaker 5: 1:19:04

I think it can shatter people's faith. You know, they'd rather just kind of keep their head in the sand and just go all right. You know, I don't want to even delve into that. I think that's the Pope's planer thing. I think all of them they have good intentions, they want to be faithful Catholics. They just they're afraid to touch into these topics because these topics are scary. They really are. It's like it's like it's apocalyptic. What we're talking about, like what we are discussing, is apocalyptic, but to me it's kind of. I think people should be excited that you're living through a an apocalyptic time Like you're going to see God make some moves Like this has been going on for too long for God to just sit back and not do anything about it soon, like in my opinion.

Speaker 4: 1:19:45

Well, yeah, and even if it doesn't happen, like it's just listen people, like you have to go with the truth.

Speaker 2: 1:19:50

You know, I had a conversation with Bishop.

Speaker 4: 1:19:52

Schneider on my channel in 2022.

Speaker 4: 1:19:55

It was like my first big interview, you know, on my show, and I basically said to him was like your excellency, like how? Because he wrote in his book that lefebvre was right and john paul ii and the council was wrong, like it's in his book on religious liberty. And uh, I said how do you, how do you explain this? You know, I know how we can explain it if we get into the weeds of like theology, nerd stuff, but like how do you just say this? And he was so you know, he's so simple in the like, in the sense of simplicity, not simpleton, but in a good sense, and he was just like I won't do his accent, but he was like we have to go with what's true exactly he's like I don't know what to tell you.

Speaker 4: 1:20:35

you just, you have to go with what is true. It is true that there is no such thing as religious liberty and catholicism. It is false. To say that there is, that it appears in a council document and the writings of popes is wrong. That it shouldn't is right, and that's all we can say. So, with this, and I don't know what God's going to do, I have no idea. I'm not a charismatic. I don't speak to God directly. Yeah, but God told me that's great.

Speaker 4: 1:21:01

You know, so, so, like with this, with this stuff, it's, it's. That's one of the biggest problems. And, by the way, father Nick's asked me to say papaya, so I will say papaya, papaya, papaya. Do you guys see that? I've posted on a video a couple of times. What's amazing about that? For people that don't know Patty Mansfield God bless her, she's an old woman and I feel bad, but it's like she's still going and like this person is leading souls into into hellfire ultimately, because it's heresy. Um, you're welcome, father, and um, she uh, was, uh, speaking in tongues. She always says papaya, but she was speaking in tongues in bra and she, she had a translator and it's like a stadium full of people and she's like saying doc, doc, doc, doc, papaya, papaya, like all this stuff, and everyone was like waving their hands and like saying whatever, papaya papaya and and the translator starts saying papaya, but like with a Portuguese accent.

Speaker 4: 1:22:04

So the translator was like translating papaya into Portuguese tongues charismatic tongues with an accent.

Speaker 4: 1:22:16

But I want to say this as well I can go. I don't know what your cutoff is, but I have some time, by the way, I put to cut out some time, so just tell me if I'm talking too much. But the charismatics and there's an article that I cite in my book, from the national Catholic reporter, which was liberal before the council for sure it wasn't as bad as it is now, but it was always kind of liberal and there's an article from 1967 and I have the PDF of that newspaper. It's amazing what people will share with you when you talk about the charismatic renewal. They just want to expose it.

Speaker 4: 1:22:47

I have so many. I had professors, priests, theologians, uh, uh, reaching out to me saying please share this, I'll help you, helping me with my book, but they're like, I can't be associated with you publicly because it's like Scarlet letter, um, and that's fine, I'm, I'm already, I'm already self canceled, so I'll do what. I don't care. They can't do anything to me. Um, actually, one thing that I had to deal with uh, the charismatic organizations have the uh, have a habit of suing people, hmm, uh, but you can't sue from America to Canada.

Speaker 5: 1:23:19

Hey, let's go. Oh nice, that's why you were able to write this book.

Speaker 4: 1:23:23

I'm actually serious because I looked into it. It was the same with Church Milton. They had a habit of suing people, but they could never sue LifeSite, because LifeSite's based in Canada. You can't sue me, guys. You can try but you can't. Anyway, the Charismatics in the 1960s and the seventies. They called themselves liberals, like they were not conservatives. By their own admission. It took on a interestingly kind of fundamentalist bent as time progressed and got really strange. They were not conservatives, hence their ecumenism, and they were all wrapped up in like the movements. They were a civil rights people, you know and um, until the beginning.

Speaker 5: 1:24:08

Then you'd be in trouble. Once Trump, once Trump commandeers Canada, you're getting sued.

Speaker 4: 1:24:15

I'll go to Mexico, I'll go to Greenland. No, I'm just kidding, that won't work either. I'll just go to Italy. But in any event they the thing is is is charismatics are seen as conservatives today because they retain the same theology that, like a 1960s mainline Protestant had. Exactly A 1960s mainline Protestant was obviously not abortion or pro-gay marriage, because that was just seen as insane, was obviously not pro-abortion or pro-gay marriage, because that was just seen as insane. So they look like they're quote-unquote conservative because their morals are average American morals from the 60s, which were normal morals for the most part.

Speaker 5: 1:24:52

Although most of them are against birth control.

Speaker 4: 1:24:54

Most of them will. Yeah, and that was fine. Then it wasn't weird you weren't seen as some rigid trad, but their liberalism was in their theology is the point.

Speaker 3: 1:25:04

Exactly because if you were to go back and look at any of the disputes post council, with the debates coming right out of the council of hey stuff, this stuff doesn't sound good. You were called a conservative. The term traditionalist wasn't even really adopted until Lefebvre started the movement of the society, and that kind of kicked off. You were called the conservative. Yes, they feb started the movement of the society and that kind of kicked off. You were called the conservative. If, yes, they were called the conservatives, they were called the conservatives, yeah, which goes to show you how this insane overton window has gone, because today we call the conservatives the jp tours, which were just yesterday's liberals yeah, yeah, yeah and uh.

Speaker 4: 1:25:35

So that from the day one it was all wacky and they started these covenant communities. Uh, I there's. I don't know why it even exists, but there are transcripts of their meetings. They fit, they it's. You know what?

Speaker 4: 1:25:47

okay, you know who was also a pentecostal jim jones yeah, exactly he was these pentecost yeah, yeah, jones town, yeah, absolutely the pentecostals were always liberals because they were like well, first of all it's it's like predatorial because when you go to the people, all it's it's like predatorial because when you go to the people that have their lives ripped to shreds because of poverty and stuff and you come in with like this religious experience, it's a really easy sell, like it's a it's an easy business plan prosperity gospel nonsense, yeah yeah, and it's also just like you know you don't have any money, you don't have anything, but like you can have power, you know, like that's it really appeals to that person who's really disenfranchised, you know, and uh, so a lot of the Pentecostal stuff really gets into the, into the civil rights movement for a lot of those reasons.

Speaker 5: 1:26:29

Yeah, no, I know a lot about Jim Jones. I listened to Martyr Maids Jim.

Speaker 4: 1:26:32

Jones. You know how he, you know how he recorded himself. And so the charismatics recorded themselves in their covenant communities when they would have their public meetings and they kept all the bloody tapes and they're all at, like the university of Michigan, yeah, so a ton of them have been transcribed and Ralph Martin is on them, uh, and other people. And I'm serious and I have site, I have the actual citations of those meetings in my book and it's full on cult and this is the 1970s, it's full on cult and this is the 1970s.

Speaker 5: 1:27:02

It's full-on. Ralph martin's been in this that long. Ralph martin's been doing this. Ralph martin's. Ralph martin started the first covenant community in 1968 or 69 in michigan man, it's so crazy to me, like like I, I I've always liked ralph martin. I don't know, I never knew any of. I'm gonna have to get this book, man. Holy, holy cow. All right guys, all right, we're going to go over to Locals.

Speaker 5: 1:27:23

I want to talk to Kennedy over there too, and we've been on here for a long time. We're going to go a little late tonight. I have work tomorrow, but I'll suck it up and deal with it.

Speaker 4: 1:27:33

We can talk about how we also learned that transcripts can get you into trouble.

Speaker 5: 1:27:37

You do not want to miss this local show. I'm just telling you. I promise you you will not regret coming over to locals tonight. First off Rob hasn't said it like I think 45 bucks for the year. You pay one time. You got us for the year. It is very easy. You guys go over there. You support the show. It's the best way to help us out. But you will not want to miss this one, I promise you. This one's going to Kennedy. You're coming because you have to hear the lunacy.

Speaker 4: 1:28:05

Let me just say one more thing before you go over.

Speaker 5: 1:28:06

Nick's got something he wants to promote too.

Speaker 4: 1:28:08

But yeah, god, this is the last thing I'll say, because someone said in the chat this is a super common thing, which is why it took me so long to even get up the courage to write the book. So Pentecostals cares, same thing. They're really nice people. Yeah, they are really nice people, and so are Mormons, exactly so it's just like I get it. Some of the nicest, most suspicable people I've ever met in my life are Muslims and I want to go over to their house for supper and eat some kebabs and it's amazing and like we'll just talk about football and it's. I love these guys, but like it's not the religion that I can follow. Charismatics may be the nicest people on earth. Many of them are. It has nothing to do with it.

Speaker 5: 1:28:45

Look, I look the thing. I'll say this I don't think many of them know, no, they don't, they don't. I don't think. Look, it's not just they're nice people. There's some of the most devout Catholics that I know, like there's some of the most that want to stick to faithful Catholic um moral teachings. That I know. I just I know a lot of charismatic, so I'm going to say, like I'll have you on, father.

Speaker 4: 1:29:12

They should be charismatic.

Speaker 5: 1:29:14

Not kidding, you should interview me, kennedy. Oh, of course, definitely.

Speaker 4: 1:29:17

This is everybody. This is so many people have the same story as Father Nick's. Myself Like it's. It's the stream of coming through for people.

Speaker 5: 1:29:24

It's how my family came to like take their family. Like I grew up with this as my Catholic upbringing. Like I don't find tradition until around the same time you do. It's like 2017. I find tradition when McCarrick scandal breaks and that's what. So it's like it's not a judgment of the people. He's talking about the movement itself and its origins, and a lot of people don't realize. So, like if it's it's. I can't wait to read this book because I'm going to have to break some, some things to my mom, even you know it's, it's just, it's an audible now, okay, all right nick.

Speaker 5: 1:30:00

You got something you want to promote.

Speaker 3: 1:30:01

You got something coming up on your channel right yeah, so this year, 2025, I have a huge series, estimated somewhere between 75 to 100 episodes, and I think it's actually memed off of kennedy hall's uh famous work, but it's uh, it's going to be called the novus ordo is a problem. The reason that I'm doing this series is it's going to let me tell you what it it's. It's a in-depth expositional series over several large works that have been done about the new mass, one of which people have probably heard, two of which people have probably heard of in here Uh, father Jakeda's book, uh, work of human hands, minus the set a thesis in there. We'll talk about that when that comes up, sorry, the set A's that are out there, as well as the work, the problem with liturgical reform. So it's going to be a major line-by-line expositional series, very, very heady, very, very academic.

Speaker 3: 1:30:52

But the reason I'm doing this series is because I've seen a lot of individuals, particularly in my own personal life, some at the parish. I go to some personal friends of mine, um, who continue to fall into the old habit of if it's a reverent new mass, a traditional nova sordo, then we should go, everything's fine. They don't understand the actual intrinsic problems with the new mass missile itself. So we'll be going through that. It's not just going to be me, it's going to be me and murray rundus. We're going to be going through line by line, but we're also going to be having lots of other guests come on to talk about various aspects of this uh, two of which are here right now anthony, of course he's going to be doing a presentation similar to his presentation over uh at the cancel priest conference, talking about the fall which they took that talk down.

Speaker 5: 1:31:39

So if you never that talk, you'll get a kind of a tweaked version of that that I'm going to do on next channel.

Speaker 3: 1:31:46

Exactly. It's going to be a very interesting conversation we're going to have, of course, kennedy on, and, kennedy, I'm going to send you an email of kind of just some of the ideas of what I want you to speak on. But the big thing, particularly for your book promotion, is I've been trying to meme and talk about what I call liturgical modernism, which is that well, if it's just reverent and the aesthetics are good, then it must be fine, which is nothing more than just my religious sense of symbolism, exactly, ie exactly what Tyrell and all of them would have been okay with. So, those individuals, we also have Joe More, uh, joe Moreau coming on from return of the King podcast. We have, uh, matthew Pleasy coming on for three episodes talking about why one should not go to the new mass, et cetera. Hey, murray, good to see you.

Speaker 3: 1:32:30

Buddy, uh, we have a lot of other guests that are coming on, and so this is going to be a pretty big series, going to also share the series as well, because I'm wanting to put to bed once and for all this ridiculous new mass and at least we can use this as one massive if you will course, for free, that you can just send, if you're. If someone's bothering you, you can drop a 100 video playlist. Boom, here you go, study this and uh you'll be set. So, anyway, I want you guys to go over there and uh learn. It'll be a lot of fun kennedy.

Speaker 5: 1:33:04

Where can people find the charismatic book?

Speaker 2: 1:33:07

amazon I did pin them in the uh, the live chat, just so everyone's go to amazon and if you want to have, you can also.

Speaker 4: 1:33:13

uh, if you want the audiobook, it's on audible. So that's like amazon and I think itunes books or something has it as well. There's a couple places and then, but if you want to go to my sub stack, mere traditionsubstackcom the charismatic book is there in its own section and each chapter is digital and then each chapter also has the audio book chapter in that article. So if you want to have more stuff and rather than signing up for audible, you can sign up for that and get that and more.

Speaker 5: 1:33:42

Okay, all right, guys, hit like, hit, subscribe. A lot of people in here, I hope there's that many likes Nick. You turned 47 in 11 days.

Speaker 3: 1:33:50

I am yes, sir, that's exactly what's happening.

Speaker 5: 1:33:54

We're going to have to have an inauguration. Show me and Nick, we have to do some politics coming up, we're going to jump over to the other side. You guys do not want to miss this one. I am telling you you have no idea.

Speaker 2: 1:34:09

Okay, let me turn off.

Speaker 5: 1:34:11

All right, rob, take us out. Also, the conference on February 8th. We'll have to put a little video together for a short promo for that. All right, let's go, take us out doing it right now.

Speaker 2: 1:34:27

Okay, we are just on locals okay, just locals.

Speaker 3: 1:34:33

This is where we'll start screaming the n-word as loud as you can, I'm gonna put another dip just on locals yeah, good idea wait, what'd you say?

Speaker 5: 1:34:43

One more dip. People were going crazy that you were spitting in that cup bro. Oh, who cares? They were so mad at you spitting in that cup boy. Okay. So Deacon Jim Russell. We'll probably listen to this too, I'm sure he will.

Speaker 2: 1:35:02

I guarantee he's a paid subscriber to our locals, I guarantee I did go through the list today to see if I could figure out which one he was, but I guarantee he is a paid member of locals.

Speaker 5: 1:35:12

There's no way he's not. So he sent a letter to uh. So rob and I are speaking at a conference in charlotte on february 8th and he went through all of my tweets and went through, and rob puts up a transcript of each episode and the last episode the software generates a transcript for the whole show and I'll upload the whole thing to youtube, just because I'm not going to cut it in half when we go to locals, and apparently so.

Speaker 2: 1:35:42

YouTube will sync it to the part it has, but apparently it will continue to show the transcript even after the video stops.

Speaker 5: 1:35:49

So that's their stream yard. Yeah, that's their stream yard. Okay, so stream yard does that? Now I went off on a rant about Amish people smelling in Lancaster, pa, and then I talked about Native Americans and I said they're an unimpressive people. They run around and they run the wear and they just, they just they didn't build anything Like I went on up on this rant about Native Americans.

Speaker 3: 1:36:14

Did you cover the blacks? You cover the blacks, I didn't.

Speaker 5: 1:36:17

No, I didn't, I didn't do any, any, anything like that. So this is the letter he sends to the bishops of both Charleston and Charlotte, because the bishop of Charleston is actually at the conference.

Speaker 2: 1:36:30

Which is in Charlotte.

Speaker 5: 1:36:35

Which is in Charlotte, but he's the conference keynote speaker. Dear Bishop, I'm not going to say his name. I'm writing to you today to make you aware of a scandalous situation regarding this year's Catholic Men of the Carolinas Conference, which includes you as a keynote speaker. Unfortunately, two of the speakers who will also be appearing at the conference were not properly vetted and their public Catholic counter-witness renders them inappropriate for a speaking appearance at a diocesan-sponsored event, in my estimation. I reached out last week to the Diocese of Charlotte, north Carolina, to register the same concern, but I have not yet received any response. So I wanted to make sure that you were also personally informed and alerted to a potentially scandalous issue that could do serious spiritual harm to the men attending this conference.

Speaker 5: 1:37:15

Two of the speakers in question are the host and producer of the podcast Avoiding Babylon. The host is Anthony and the producer is Rob Blighton. They are billed as humorous in the publicity information for the conference, but in fact they are radical traditionalists whose humor is based squarely on mockery, bigotry and prejudice of a most extreme kind. It gets so much worse. The gravest concern here is with the host, anthony Abadi, though his producer, rob, is also in lockstep with Abadi on these scandalous issues. In both his video content at Avoiding Babylon and his personal social media presence on X, abadi has publicly demonstrated a deeply offensive set of prejudices veiled under the guise of humor, you bastard. Namely, a body has publicly dissented from the magisterium on its teaching regarding mutual submission of spouses.

Speaker 3: 1:38:15

That's Anthony's issue. That's Anthony's.

Speaker 2: 1:38:19

T Larson in the chat has a genius idea For the transcript of this episode. I'm going to. For the transcript this episode I'm going to upload Pashendi, that way he'll actually read it.

Speaker 4: 1:38:28

That's great.

Speaker 5: 1:38:33

A body has publicly dissented from the magisterium on its teaching regarding the mutual submission of spouses in marriage. He posts misogynistic content that mocks and demeans women. He posts grossly antisemitic tropes and mocks and demeans Judaism and the Jewish people. He deliberately provokes Protestants, demeaning and mocking them, instead of seeking any semblance of ecumenical rapport.

Speaker 2: 1:38:56

I mean, the only part he's inaccurate about is the like out of step with the magisterium, but other than that it's basically accurate.

Speaker 5: 1:39:03

Okay, but the funny part is, like most of the Protestants like the All right, I'm going to let you guys in on something. Like Chad Danny, those guys will DM me, they all follow me, like you're all chummy in the back. Yeah, come on. Like those guys don't dislike me, they like me. Like I'm friendly with them, I don't care. Like even all right, I'm not going to say that. Actually I don't want to blow anybody's spot, okay. So he deliberately provokes Protestants, demeaning and mocking them, instead of seeking any semblance of ecumenical rapport. He consistently employs foul and offensive language, including homophobic tropes and slurs, and he has a significant following amongst the white nationalist groipers I didn't even see that. And schismatic no, I didn't even see that. White nationalist groipers. And schismatic.

Speaker 2: 1:39:53

And even sedivacantus catholics yeah, then we, then we go to kennedy hall on.

Speaker 5: 1:40:00

He's had Sedevacant as Patrick Coffin on as a guest on Avoiding Babylon and promoted an Italian pilgrimage led by him and Coffin. There is so much of his content in the public record that the volume would certainly shock most faithful Catholics and it is decidedly a source of scandal and false teaching that has no place in a diocesan event and false teaching that has no place in a diocesan event. But for the sake of making it easier for you to assess the significance of the problem here, I have compiled multiple examples to share with you, specifically in the areas of his magisterial dissent, misogyny, anti-semitism and other offensive speech and slurs Attached. You will find four separate PDF files containing screenshots from Abadi's social media posts on X. Here's the thing he doomed himself right there.

Speaker 2: 1:40:44

Whoever's reading this at the diocese is like oh no, I'm not going through all this oh my gosh man.

Speaker 5: 1:40:51

This is the greatest thing I've ever read in my life, along with a fifth pdf file containing a transcript from a video clip of a body on avoiding babylon episode, in which he appallingly attacks native Americans.

Speaker 2: 1:41:04

So someone goes wow, he really makes you sound so much cooler than you are.

Speaker 3: 1:41:10

Yeah, you honestly sound way more Epic in my opinion.

Speaker 5: 1:41:14

If you or your designate would need to reach out to me for any further information, please feel free to do so. 10 years ago, I served as family life coordinator for the Archdiocese of St Louis, which sponsors similar men's conferences and required stringent vetting for speakers.

Speaker 2: 1:41:29

I love how he doesn't say why it was 10 years ago and not now. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 5: 1:41:32

So I know and understand that challenge as well as the awkwardness involved in making any intervention at this point, but I firmly believe an intervention is in the best interest of your diocese and the souls of the men attending your event. Now I have to share with you guys a few of the examples he gave.

Speaker 2: 1:41:49

Bro, we all see your Twitter.

Speaker 5: 1:41:52

I know, but the ones that he pulled are just too ridiculous. Just too ridiculous. Okay, so did you see the Netflix movie coming out that's out now about the, the black women of world war two in the male department? Were they?

Speaker 4: 1:42:11

all Sicilian. No they were real black.

Speaker 5: 1:42:14

So there's a movie on Netflix that came out and it's about black women running a male department and they're, they're, they're pitching it as if world war two would have been lost without these black women running a male department. And they're, they're pitching it as if world war ii would have been lost without these black women in the male department. So I wrote a tweet, obviously I wrote a tweet saying many people don't know this, but without black women, hitler would have won. That's it. I said that okay, um, okay, uh. He must have keyword searched the word broad, because I say broads a lot.

Speaker 2: 1:42:46

Like I'll make, like I'll so he basically pulled up your whole twitter in a search.

Speaker 5: 1:42:50

It's just he, just everything. So, uh, there was one. Oh man, rob, you must have called a girl toots in a tweet like you called a girl toots in a tweet, and the girl got really mad and I said these broads are out of control. Toots is too nice, you really are a bad influence on me.

Speaker 2: 1:43:10

I am.

Speaker 5: 1:43:10

So somebody wrote what is the most confusing thing the Catholic church teaches, and I said that women are equal in dignity to men. Come on, that's funny.

Speaker 1: 1:43:23

I make myself laugh.

Speaker 5: 1:43:24

I don't know why nobody else laughs?

Speaker 3: 1:43:27

Because we went to college, oh man.

Speaker 5: 1:43:32

And then there was one. I wrote oh, your chick is a bodybuilder, I'm sorry, you're gay. So those are the homophobic slurs. These are the examples he sent to the bishop giving the keynote address.

Speaker 3: 1:43:49

Oh, this is great.

Speaker 5: 1:43:51

I can't, Bro. You have no idea. I had to talk with this bishop. Did you talk with him Not?

Speaker 2: 1:43:59

on the phone. I emailed him, not the bishop. It was emailed him, not the bishop, it was his secretary. No, no.

Speaker 5: 1:44:05

At first the secretary Mary and then the bishop responded oh, no way, really. Yes, the actual bishop responded.

Speaker 2: 1:44:13

Oh my gosh, this is going to be an awkward meeting. He's either come up and give us a side eye or he's going to come up and shake your hand. One of the two.

Speaker 4: 1:44:25

You're going to find out that he's like an Avoiding Babylon viewer.

Speaker 5: 1:44:30

So, from what we understand, the bishop is very, very nice, like he's a very, very nice guy.

Speaker 2: 1:44:39

Good sense of humor, we're told.

Speaker 5: 1:44:46

Oh, brian Holdsworth, oh oh no. Brian holdsworth just emailed me because I'm trying to get dates for brian, so I sent him a date. He said let me check with my wife. She's my boss, obviously, but yeah, I, just this guy man, I he what. He spent his entire day writing that letter, going through all of my stuff like it was just all day, everything I tweet. I blocked him months ago. He has like an alt account that he goes and searches my twitter and now elon opened it up so anybody can see.

Speaker 2: 1:45:18

Yeah, he doesn't need to do that anymore and he just I.

Speaker 5: 1:45:23

I never saw anybody spiral like this guy, but he has a history of doing this. He's done. He's done it to mike lewis for years and he did it to a woman who left her abusive husband apparently. So simcha fisher, who I'm not a fan of, she's a nightmare of a but she wrote an entire article on how awful Jim Russell is because he badgered this poor woman who was abused by her husband and like, and and they wrote that he wrote for church militant in the article. So I just sent that article to the bishop. The bishop was like oh OK, I see what. I see what this guy is and that was it. It. So we're still on for speaking at the gig and I don't know what jim thought he was going to accomplish with that.

Speaker 4: 1:46:08

But this guy named thaddeus kaczynski comes after me the same way. Oh, I know thaddeus. Yeah, he, uh, he makes fake accounts and like to talk to me on twitter and uh substack. And he right, he calls me a loser schismatic pharisee. Uh, literally just calls me a loser, schismatic Pharisee. Uh, literally just calls me a loser. And he, I've told him to like get help many times.

Speaker 3: 1:46:28

Yeah, and he said some stuff about me too.

Speaker 4: 1:46:31

He's nuts and. But he also thinks that I'm a loser because I recognize Francis's Pope. So, like I'm a, I'm a loser because I'm a schismatic and I'm a loser because I am a Pharisee, and I'm a loser because I don't like the charismatic renewal and I'm a loser because I'm not a Sede I'm just a loser I'm such a loser in so many ways. I can't win.

Speaker 1: 1:46:51

Is he a?

Speaker 4: 1:46:52

Sede. He's one of the Benedict guys.

Speaker 3: 1:46:55

So he's basically a Fox news conservative Catholic yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:46:58

He's one of those Benny Plantis guys. Yeah, he's one of those benny plenus guys. Man, that that like listen, I love dr maza and I and if father nix is still listening, I know that there are very intelligent people who have very intelligent reasons to believe that benedict didn't resign. And I don't have. No, I don't actually have an opinion on it.

Speaker 4: 1:47:14

I don't really I. I, I think it's possible. I think all these things are possible. I think state of a contism is possible. I think it's possible. I, what the heck am I supposed to think? You know? Uh, I actually don't care if people come to a different conclusion about something that is extremely confusing and difficult in this.

Speaker 5: 1:47:30

I would say father nicks holds that position. That same thing you just said there. Like I, I came to this conclusion, but I don't care if you came to a different conclusion.

Speaker 3: 1:47:39

Like we're dealing with a crisis guys, he's not gonna call you a loser. That that's the thing that, like ed, dr maza and father nicks are very rational, charitable, chill people who sit down have a conversation rather than hide behind a youtube account and call you a loser but there is, there is a stream and and there is in both state of a contism and in the Benny plan ism, there is a temptation for a uh, kind of non-rational wackiness. Yeah.

Speaker 5: 1:48:09

Dogmatizing or if you don't see it the way I see it, you're a fool, yeah, dogmatizing the view yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:48:16

There is a thing there. It's not necessary because you can totally come to these conclusions and be a totally holy person. Of course you can, because it's just a. It's a. It's a. It's a decision about disputable facts.

Speaker 5: 1:48:29

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:48:30

So that's going to cause a difference of opinion and it's a time of great crisis. So I might be wrong, I don't know. Um, but because it's a wild West out there, like let's be honest, like you know what, like if you go and look at these blogs and stuff and these videos and like there's no authority in it, because it's not an authoritative position, uh, so whenever there's no hierarchy of authority, there's always a attempt, there's always a, there's always a risk of of getting a little bit strange and that sort of thing happens.

Speaker 5: 1:49:06

Yeah, getting a little bit strange and that sort of thing happens. Yeah, no, exactly, I'm just pulling up the comments here. No, no, I agree. Like I say it all the time on stream, I'm like that there's no. Like I don't know, like I don't know, I think we're in a crisis. What I know is we can still all be holy, right, like we can still all find a way to be holy, like that might mean, um, you just have to live your life as a, and I and I, you. You just have to find what works for you and still be catholic.

Speaker 5: 1:49:34

I don't know, you know they're like I don't think it's crazy to be a set of accounts. I don't think it's crazy to be a benny plentist. I don't think it's crazy. I think the pope's players are a little nuts. But like I get it, like I can, I can at least see it. You know I, I think they, I think nick had it right in the last show where, like, they're afraid to dive into some of this stuff because they're afraid of the conclusions they'll come to. I kind of just look at it like, hey, we're in like serious crisis mode. But I know, without the sacraments, my life falls apart. So I'm just I'm Catholic, that's all I know.

Speaker 3: 1:50:06

Yeah, there's like legitimate. Where I get off is this is that I'm fine if people want to hold a myriad of opinions and debate these opinions out in this type of forum. Flanders did an episode on 1 Peter 5 like a month ago, talking about the effeminacy in Catholic content creation, where it's just this sniping at one another without any type of actual public engagement, especially if it's not in writing or something. So I don't care if people have these opinions. What drives me off the wall, insane, is when, whether it's a sette or it's a popesplainer, they'll dogmatize their view to the point where it is legitimate gaslighting. We've heard this phrase gaslighting but it's truly something that's cruel. I'll give an example.

Speaker 3: 1:50:50

Today I was helping this, this individual, she she lives up in Canada Actually, she lives up in Canada. Her nearest TLMs five, five hours away, found in the middle of the boonies, and she is trying to. She's getting married in eight months and she's going to be moving near SSPX chapel where her husband will be. So praise God for that. But in the meantime, all she has around her is one local Novus Ordo parish and the Novus Ordo parish. The priest has rainbow banners from the parish. He gets up, promotes abortion from the pulpit, contraception from the pulpit, contraception from the pulpit, homosexuality from the pulpit. She's rebuked him multiple times, he won't listen, etc.

Speaker 3: 1:51:27

So she reached out on this public forum for the society and she said what do I do? And the first comment was just suck it up, it's the mass. The mass is the mass. You're supposed to go sunday obligation, yeah, and I said and and I usually am not this like angry online, but I just said it is cruel and idiotic to bind somebody to to something that will give you like, harm your faith. It is cruel to bind someone, say you must go to this thing which will harm your, your faith, and it's insane. That's when it becomes cult-like. You know, our faith is so much about reason and faith going hand in hand together, but we've seen to have just turned off reason and said well, it doesn't matter, you just need to shut up and listen to whatever we say. And what that ends up doing is it ends up making you fly on a quote blind faith.

Speaker 4: 1:52:20

Have any of you read Dr Kwasniewski's Bound by Truth?

Speaker 5: 1:52:25

No, somebody just DM'd me earlier about that. They DM'd you too. Catholic Mouse Rob.

Speaker 4: 1:52:32

It's a really good book and Dr K is on the Mount Rushmore with, like the Michael Davies, john Venari. Venari doesn't get enough credit for the actual theologian he was. He was a journalist in many ways but his actual theological acumen was astounding and um, but anyway, um, he has a chapter in there on Sunday obligation and he shows from the theological manuals way before the council, like twenties, 1910s, 1940s, different languages, french, german, english, whatever. Like 20s, 1910s, 1940s, different languages, french, german, english, whatever. It's just, it's part of the universal, ordinary magisterial understanding, it's like it's in there, it's in the catechism, it's in the things, it's the teaching of the church, it's accepted, it's common, it's across the board, it's across, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's peacefully accepted by the church and um, before the new mass, long before um, they had a much more reasonable Catholic understanding of Sunday obligation. So it goes through. He has all these citations from these various manuals about when are you dispensed from Holy mass? And this is long before the new mass. That's not even a part of it. So it's just TLM, yeah, exactly. Long before the new mass. That's not even a part of it. So it's just TLM, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4: 1:53:44

And he, he shows. It's almost comical. There's a myriad of them, there's tons, but it's like in the first trimester or the third trimester of pregnancy, if there. If it takes more than 30 minutes to walk, if it's 30 minutes to walk, if he uses it, you can tell this is from like England. It's like during the lambing season. If you know lots of your income comes from the fair and selling your lambs, you don't have to go to mass If it's on the weekend.

Speaker 3: 1:54:12

Or have you? Have you seen the one where it's the, the different rights, where it's your only option? You're a eastern right catholic church. You're dispensed because it's too weird for you to to go so and also like uh, that's one thing.

Speaker 4: 1:54:29

It's a dirty little secret which all these pope's planners go east. It's a dirty secret. It's a dirty open secret in the eastern right that if you don't have an eastern right liturgy, you don't have to go to mass. Like you don't, you're not required to go to a mass, it's not your right. That's why they have vespers and stuff by these deacons in a lot of these uh, non-Eastern countries where they have the diaspora, they don't go to mass on Sunday. They don't. They can if they want, but they don't have to. They're not required to. Um. But another example which is so fascinating is um, it says very clearly if there is a risk of spiritual harm to yourself or another. Exactly, that's clear in the documents.

Speaker 5: 1:55:08

If you believe you have some priest preaching, heresy or something not even just that risk of spiritual harm. And the TLM back then, it would have been something like that, it wouldn't have been communion on the hand. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:55:19

That's a spiritual harm to Christ Right, which is a big deal. It wouldn't have been uh, uh, female altar boys. It wouldn't have been, uh, discombobulated like once you put the novus ordo in that context. It's not even an argument like you could go if you want, that's your choice, but this is about the tlm, for goodness sake, and uh and like it was. So what? What happened after the council? And Dr K has a good hypothesis what happened after the council was all the dogmas get thrown out. So all that's left to be a conservative Catholic is you always go to mass in your pro-life.

Speaker 4: 1:55:54

That's pretty much the only that's like that's the only things they didn't like. Basically get rid of. So and every mass sucks.

Speaker 5: 1:56:01

It really is what it is right. It's every go to mass on Sunday and you're pro-life, but that's all.

Speaker 4: 1:56:07

That's your only obligation to be a faithful Catholic. If you go to mass and you're pro-life and uh and you know I'm speaking colloquially here Every mass has problems. Like, every mass is a risk of spiritual harm to yourself or another because Protestantism is a risk of spiritual harm to yourself or another because Protestantism is a risk of spiritual harm to yourself or another. Like I had a conversation with this really smart Catholic apologist I won't say it was and we were going back and forth and he was trying to get me on like what if it's like basically the unicorn, nova Sordo, it's beautiful music, all these kinds of things. My whole thing was, like the priest is still saying the Protestantized liturgy, I believe.

Speaker 4: 1:56:40

I believe there is a risk of spiritual harm to him. Yes, if I go to that one time, like, let's say, in some parallel universe where I'm traveling without my family, which only happens when I'm working, and if I'm working I'm going to an SSPX thing or like a canceled priest thing, so it's TLM anyway. So in some scenario where this could possibly be the case, for some reason Scott Hahn invites Kennedy Hall to come for the weekend and wants me to go to his really nice Nova Sordo on Sunday at 10 AM. I still believe that this priest is at a risk of spiritual harm because he's saying a neo-Protestant mass, exactly.

Speaker 3: 1:57:15

Exactly.

Speaker 4: 1:57:16

You guys are such hardliners, but I'm just but that's about the tlm for goodness sake, it's not even about this. So when you bring the new mass into it, it's like there's not even an argument, like no one can bind you to, that they just can't exactly exactly, and this is why I've always memed.

Speaker 3: 1:57:30

But I've said like, when people say well, what nick, if it's just in latin, it's okay, and I say well, you can enjoy your jewish latin prayer service, because I don't understand.

Speaker 4: 1:57:40

I don't understand how the Gropers are.

Speaker 5: 1:57:43

Like it's literally prayers, it's prayers from the Talmud.

Speaker 4: 1:57:46

for goodness sake, yeah.

Speaker 5: 1:57:48

And they're like those sort of space.

Speaker 4: 1:57:50

I'm like you are a. You're a joke of a person. I don't even know what you're trying to say here. I think that's it's.

Speaker 5: 1:57:55

E Michael Jones too. I don't care. Listen, I want to get off this. I want to play that second clip from Mel before we go. I put that five minute clip in. Rob Should be the shorter one, the second one I sent.

Speaker 2: 1:58:21

Yeah, hold on, let me pull it up.

Speaker 5: 1:58:24

He's talking about the resurrection. So there was just a Protestant on Joe Rogan and everybody was passing the clip around of the Protestant discussing the resurrection with Rogan. This was Mel's attempt to explain the resurrection to Rogan and I want to see what you guys think of this take to Rogan and I want to see what you guys think of this.

Speaker 1: 1:58:43

Take. It's a story that you want to tell about good and evil. Do you have a script or is it just a thing in your head?

Speaker 6: 1:58:50

What is it? Yeah, it's the resurrection story, but it's not just linear, because you can't really. It's hard to understand. So it's got to be put in a framework where you answer a few other questions as well and you have to juxtapose the event itself against everything else so that it makes some kind of sense in a bigger picture, which is a hard thing to do, and it took my brother and I about and a guy called Randall Wallace, plus my brother and I. Took us six, seven years to write it.

Speaker 1: 1:59:33

So are you doing this with historians as well? Are you trying to make it? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6: 1:59:37

Yeah, historical stuff. Well, I regard the Gospels as history. It's verifiable history. Some people say, oh, it's a fairy tale, he never existed but he did. And there are other accounts, verifiable historical accounts outside the biblical ones, that also bear this up that, yes, he did exist. Aspect of that is that the all the evangelists, the apostles who went out there, um, every single one of those guys died rather than deny their belief. And nobody dies for a lie, nobody right.

Speaker 1: 2:00:13

So that's part of what I'm doing it's like showing nobody dies for a lie yeah, well, the resurrection is the one that is the most difficult for people to swallow.

Speaker 6: 2:00:25

Yes, that is the one that requires the most faith, the most faith and the most belief. Yeah, resurrection, yeah. Who gets back up three days later after he gets murdered in public? Who gets back up under his own power? Buddha didn't do that shit, right? So?

Speaker 1: 2:00:45

You believe that was a real event. Yeah, I do. Yeah, what brought you to that belief? Is this something that you've always had or is it something? You studied it and you've come to this conclusion because of the historical?

Speaker 5: 2:00:57

accounts. I think it's funny that Joe's asking that Like Joe seems.

Speaker 2: 2:01:02

Surprised that someone actually believes what they say.

Speaker 5: 2:01:05

No, look, I think at a different time he would have kind of laughed it off where I think he's like what brought you to that conclusion? I feel like Joe kind of wants the. He's Catholic.

Speaker 4: 2:01:18

He was raised Catholic. He used to joke about it, though. In one of his earlier specials he said uh, I'm Catholic, but I'm not. And he was talking about terrorism. He's like uh, he's like we're not us Catholics, we're not like those Muslims. It's like I'm Catholic, but I don't take it that seriously.

Speaker 3: 2:01:35

He used to have some episodes where there's some clips that he was actually pretty. He mocked Christianity.

Speaker 5: 2:01:43

Oh.

Speaker 4: 2:01:44

I used to listen to church severely.

Speaker 4: 2:01:45

I used to listen to Joe Rogan. I was like a Rogan bro, I was like an agnostic douchebag and uh went back in that phase in my like early twenties because he's been on for a while. It was like 2011 to 2014. I listened to him like every day and then when I had my conversion I just had to stop because it was too filthy and all that kind of stuff, but but, uh, it used to really tick me off when I started to have my conversion, where he would talk about Christianity but you know what? Um, he's obviously like aligned with Republicans. Now he's like on that stream and uh, once you start, once you start, uh, believing in in the trump thing and once you start associating with all of these america first people and most of them are christians or christian friendly it softens you, like you're like these are guys, are the smartest, these guys get everything else, they're right about all the gender stuff and it's like well, I think that's what it is.

Speaker 5: 2:02:41

I think he sees the. He sees the the fruits of the atheist movement. I think a lot of people see it. I think that's why these conversations are happening in public. I think that's why shows like any of ours are starting to gain any hundreds. I think people are converting because they see the mayhem caused by an atheistic society and the culture collapsing, and I think that he's starting to say to himself a little bit like all right, maybe I don't get it, but apparently when you stop having religion in the public sphere, people go crazy. People lose their minds. Like the whole of society starts to collapse around you. So maybe I need to stop mocking this whole thing and maybe I need to just at least be open to hearing people's perspective, because people that he really respects, like you were saying, like he's talking to you know he's talking to Jordan Peterson, now he's talking about Gibson guys that he really respects seem to take this thing seriously. So maybe I should not make it like you're.

Speaker 4: 2:03:36

you're ridiculous if you believe this crazy fairy tale from 2000 years ago Also like you know, he's a if, if, if you're a relativist and ultimately he's been much of a relativist you're, you're and but also he believes dogmatically certain things about gender and stuff. He was actually one of the early adopters of being anti transgenderism, which was interesting. Like you, if you're a person who thinks I don't know anything about Joe Rogan, I don't know anything about Joe Rogan. I don't know him, I'm never going to be on his show. But if you are someone who thinks things through and comedians do think things through, that's why they often sometimes are the most wise in some weird way. Um, if you think things through and you're like alone with your thoughts, you're going to spiral and you're going to go like why do I believe that, like you know, you're going to follow it through to its conclusion and be like I have no reason to believe this if it's not ultimately true.

Speaker 4: 2:04:30

And that happens with a lot of things and uh, and there's no. If he's an honest person, everyone who knows him says he's really nice. I ask people everyone who knows him says he's really nice. That's people. Everyone who knows him says he's actually a nice guy, doesn't? There's no scandals about joe rogan?

Speaker 3: 2:04:44

there's no bro. He endorsed horse tranquilizers. What do you mean?

Speaker 4: 2:04:47

no scandal but I mean like I mean at this point, when you're that famous, you would think there'd be some woman coming out, or something like that exactly he seems to be like a guy with integrity in his life just wait till he runs for gop nomination then then the lady will show up.

Speaker 4: 2:05:01

So you know, if he's thinking about things, I mean, you have to come to the conclusion where you're going to start asking certain questions. I mean, and if you're going to ask, you know what did CS Lewis say? It was in Screwtape Letters and he said you know what. No, that's different. But he said that an atheist needs to be very careful with his reading. Uh, because the god is very unscrupulous.

Speaker 5: 2:05:26

Yeah he'll pop in. He'll pop in at you when you, when you least expect it. Um, all right, let's put. Oh sorry, nick, do you want to say something?

Speaker 3: 2:05:34

oh, I was just gonna say it just makes sense because it's like, I mean, we're man is made for god, and so the fact that we're all asking the question, and Rogan asks this all the time, why are he usually phrases like why are we just on this spinning ball? Are we just all in this, you know matrix sequence, where everything's pre-programmed? He's clearly asking the reasons for why do we exist and what is the meaning of life, what, what is my end goal? As men, we all have to figure out that question of what is our purpose, what's our mission. And he's just asking that for himself.

Speaker 3: 2:06:08

And so I think that when he looks around and he sees, okay, I'm asking these questions, I look around and I see, just like, in every instance of human history, when leftists and communists gain power, degeneracy and crime. Those are the two things I, leftists and communists, gain power degeneracy and crime, those are the two things. I always joke, be gay and do crime. That's the motto of leftism. It spiraled and it's true. But I think he's asking like, okay, what is everything about? And so, hopefully, what we'll see is a conversion. I don't live too far from him, I live like 45 minutes away from him.

Speaker 5: 2:06:41

Let's see the rest of it play out, and I and then I want to see if we think he did a good job presenting the evidence for the resurrection I think as a child you know one accepts things on faith because you know you're raised by people who are nice to you and they believe it.

Speaker 6: 2:06:56

and my dad was a pretty smart guy. He was like mensah smart, you know, like real smart, like back in 1968, 1968, he won Jeopardy right Really, and then they brought all the Jeopardy winners back and he played all the winners and he beat all of them too. So he had a mind like a steel trap and his memory was practically photographic. My memory is pornographic, but his was like I don't have that kind of mind, right, but I'm more like he did math and I, you know I can't add but uh, um. So as a child you learn um these things and you accept them on faith. And I still have that faith. But as I got older I came to it through intellect and through reading and putting things together in accounts, and then occurrences like in my own life. I mean just recently they verified the Shroud of Turin. Have you seen that I've been?

Speaker 1: 2:07:54

reading about it and I know that there's some contention, there's some discussion and debate about it, but they used to think that it was only a couple hundred years old. Yeah, and now they've changed that. Yeah, they said no, it's back then. They also don't understand how it was made, which to me is very fascinating, because it's not paint.

Speaker 6: 2:08:14

They don't know what caused the image itself and how that technology would have even been available a couple thousand years ago, An intense light I mean atomic To leave almost like a photographic imprint on a piece of cloth.

Speaker 1: 2:08:30

Yeah, and it's wild. Pull that up, pull the shroud of Turin up. Oh yeah, it's wild to look at. Oh yeah, because it's so interesting, oh yeah.

Speaker 6: 2:08:41

And you can see that it depicts a first century Hebrew male, because the hairstyle was from the first century and a Hebrew hairstyle. That he was about six feet tall, that he was completely scourged all over his body. He was crucified.

Speaker 1: 2:09:00

The one on the left is. The one on the right is just like an artistic rendition. That's the face. Yeah, click on that one. The face, the face. Yeah, that's good enough, get that large.

Speaker 6: 2:09:09

That's fucking crazy yeah, yeah, scourged, beaten, yeah, crap. The wounds on the, the thorns, the hands and and the scourging and the, the, the hairstyle was from the first century and the pollens that they found in the cloth were from that region. Also, the weave was a first century weave. That was typical guy. An archaeologist who I knew, who actually translated the Passion in Aramaic, told me that if you look close you can see the image of a Tiberius coin marks on the eyes. Now I don't know if that's real or not I've never actually checked that but that there's images of Tiberius on the coin.

Speaker 1: 2:09:55

So they would put the coins over the eyes. Yeah.

Speaker 6: 2:09:58

So that would date it, but they have now verified that it does actually go back to that time period. For a while they were testing pieces that had been repaired in the 13th century Right.

Speaker 1: 2:10:10

What is the latest on that, Jamie? Can you see I?

Speaker 5: 2:10:12

think it was a good segment, man. I think he did a good. This I was much happier with than the previous segment, because I just think that I still think the previous segment was like it's just too all over the place. I don't even know if Mel presented the case for even an anti-church properly. He had to do it too quick. He saw he was a little nervous about it. He knew what he was saying. If you're a newbie to this, this sounds kind of wacky like I feel like he felt like that as he was saying it he seemed more comfortable going over this.

Speaker 2: 2:10:51

You can tell he knows this stuff, uh, when it comes to the shroud.

Speaker 3: 2:10:54

So yeah, probably, because it's like in, in, in one sense, like as a as a presenter, when you're talking about, like the whole crisis to a non-Catholic, it's like it's overwhelming.

Speaker 2: 2:11:07

Like, yeah, like, where do you even start?

Speaker 3: 2:11:09

Yeah, where do you start? It's a massive subject. I'm talking about my company, the problems in my company. I have to give you a case for joining the company, but yet there's problems in the company, in the company, whereas with the Shroud of Turin and the whole resurrection narrative, it's like let me, let me show you like this is amazing, like I'm selling I'm not selling you in a bad sense, but I'm like trying to show you like look, how beautiful and amazing this thing is. So it's way easier to have your, your thoughts organized and be motivated to give that pitch yeah, I think he handled this one really good.

Speaker 5: 2:11:41

I didn't even hear the whole interview. People were telling me there was other good stuff in it too, so I'll check the rest of it out tomorrow. But all right, guys, we're at 10 15. We gave you guys a long show tonight. Rob, I'm going to cut out the whole beginning. I'm getting booted and all that stuff and I'll cut it and we'll. I'll cut it and we'll repackage this show as Kennedy's Books and we'll put it out as a separate show. Just on Kennedy, Kennedy. Thank you for coming on, brother. I hope the book sales do well. Thank you, yeah, man, we want you to come on when you're not promoting something too, though. Just come and hang one night. We'll cover some topic Like it would have been fun if we weren't getting booted off.

Speaker 3: 2:12:25

Yeah, that really it was lame, but it was kind of funny just because of all the people in the comment sections, all their memes that they were throwing out.

Speaker 5: 2:12:33

We had a very high viewership, so Kennedy's a big draw. We've got to get him back on.

Speaker 4: 2:12:38

Thanks guys, All right.

Speaker 5: 2:12:41

Guys, go subscribe to, um, uh, mere christian, mere mere tradition on youtube. If you're not already, I'm pretty sure you guys are all subscribed there. Uh, the traditional tomas, and we will see you guys on tuesday. I think we got calvin robinson next thursday and yet we're.

Speaker 2: 2:12:56

They were called not anti-humanist come on, I want to.

Speaker 5: 2:13:01

I want to talk to him about getting canceled from that conference that he was supposed to talk at. I want to say you got canceled?

Speaker 3: 2:13:06

we didn't. Did he end up getting canceled? He got canceled.

Speaker 2: 2:13:09

Yeah, they canceled him, James White man.

Speaker 3: 2:13:11

He's still got some clout out there.

Speaker 5: 2:13:12

He's got clout James White. Not as much as Jimmy, but he's still got clout, he's still got some pull in the Calvinist world, for sure, that's a fact. Rip, all right guys. We'll see you guys on Tuesday. Adios, bye-bye, thank you.