Avoiding Babylon
Avoiding Babylon was started during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic. During these difficult and dark days, when most of us were isolated from family, friends, our parishes, and even the Sacraments themselves, this channel was started as a statement of standing against the tyrannical mandates that many of us were living under. Since those early days, this channel has morphed into an amazing community of friends…no…more than friends…Christian brothers and sisters…who have grown in joy and charity.
As we see it, our job here at Avoiding Babylon is to remind ourselves and those who enjoy the channel that being Catholic is a joyful and exciting experience. We seek true Catholic fraternity and eutrapelia with other Catholics who, like us, are doing their best to live out their vocation with the help of God’s Grace. Above all, we try to bring humor and joy to the craziness of this fallen world, for as Hillaire Belloc has famously said:
“Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s always laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!”
Avoiding Babylon
Michael Knowles and Charlie Kirk Debate the Papacy
Brace yourself for a spirited discussion featuring Michael Knowles and Charlie Kirk as we navigate the labyrinth of religious conversion and interfaith dialogue. Their interplay reveals the tensions and misunderstandings between Catholicism and Protestantism, especially around sensitive topics like Mariology. We dissect Knowles’s attempts to balance his Catholic teachings with an audience diverse in beliefs, and Kirk’s interjections, sparking a broader conversation on the challenges of spreading devotion in a multifaceted Christian landscape. This segues into a deeper reflection on Church history and modern-day challenges, from Vatican II to the controversies surrounding Pope Francis, highlighting the evolving dynamics of faith and leadership.
As we wind down, expect some light-hearted banter alongside serious critiques of legalism and moralism, with a special focus on the cultural interplay of Catholic epistles. From ancient supernatural beliefs to modern skepticism, we touch on how perceptions have shifted over time.
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Sancte, sancte, amare morti necradas nos. I don't get why anybody would be mad. This is wrong.
Speaker 2:Like anyone should be able to marry anyone. You should feel happy that they're getting married People that do not like gay.
Speaker 3:I mean they're a group.
Speaker 4:Gay is bad for you, so if someone was your friend and they turned out to be gay. Would you still be their friend?
Speaker 3:No, it rolls, it rolls.
Speaker 5:It rolls.
Speaker 4:It's awesome. Oh man, welcome back everybody. Um, okay, so, uh, what do we? Let me see what we got. Okay, so, uh, first off, go to our shop. Uh, you guys know the drill. Go buy our merch. I'm not going to pump it out too much, rob will throw the link up. Go buy our merch, we've got some good stuff in there. Also, while we're here, please hit, like and subscribe. Bobby, you're going to be spoken about in a second. His name is obviously Chad. All right, so we have not mentioned something that we are doing in February together.
Speaker 5:Because we're terrible at stuff like this.
Speaker 4:We're so bad at promotion, I still need to buy the plane tickets. You still haven't bought them? No, all right, I bought mine. Okay, so Rob and I are speaking at a conference February 8th. Okay, there's a men's conference. It's in North Carolina February 8th. It's a pretty good lineup we got. Enoch is going to be there. He's speaking. Also, rick Barrett will be speaking there. We have a bishop that will be speaking there.
Speaker 5:John Frankman. No, no, I don't know if he's speaking.
Speaker 4:Oh, he's just celebrating Mass. It's even better, even better.
Speaker 4:Sometimes you don't want the prelates getting too involved in the talks, you know. So look, here's the thing. I don't know who John Edwards is, so I can't vouch for him, but I know Enoch's there, rick Barris is there, me and Rob are going to be there. So here's the thing. It's not, it's a one-day conference. There's only 40 bucks to go. This is a very, very reasonably priced thing, but we want to pack this thing out and we want you guys to stay overnight, so like, even if you're in the area, I'm going to give you guys the hotel we're staying at, because the thing is, it's over, so it's a. It's Saturday day, that's it, and there's, I'm pretty sure there's a vigil mass at the end of it, so nobody's going to have church the next day. I have like a 1 pm flight booked on, booked home on Sunday, so the conference is over at six and then we're going back to the hotel and we're going to be up to like two, three in the morning, hanging out Like that is what.
Speaker 4:We'll be up until like 11 p. Good, you don't know me and Bobby, I'm just telling you me and Bobby, you're going to be up late. So I'm going to tell you guys that if ladies you can't come, I'm sorry. This is men only, um, but I want this thing. I want this thing packed with people who watch this show. If you're in driving distance, you have to come down. If, yeah, kyle, you're coming, kyle whittington's coming.
Speaker 5:That's awesome. Is he really? Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, because you know what he's gonna do he's gonna bug us to come to the uh creator conference.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I want to go to the creator conference, though I I can't, I know you can't get off.
Speaker 5:I got a kid in august yeah, it might, that's the thing.
Speaker 4:And I have to go to the baby's bath. So, if anybody doesn't know, rob asked me to be godfather to his son, sebastian. That's coming right. Yeah, um and uh, I'm going to be going to Minnesota when the when the baby's born. So, kyle, I'll figure it out. Man, I'll figure it out, I'll get down there for a day.
Speaker 4:I do not believe it is a Latin mass, I don't know, but we're going to find a Latin mass in the area. We're going to figure something out. Maybe Bobby will take us to a schismatic Byzantine Catholic rite. I mean, they're not really schismatic, but Bobby will teach us how to make the sign of the cross backwards. We'll try and fake it for a day, all right? So it's february 8th. Rob and I are going in the 7th.
Speaker 5:I will be there, yeah for all three of you that would be cool.
Speaker 4:Maybe we could. We could see if we could make something like that happen. My, my wife would never host something like that. That's what stinks. I gotta get her more involved over here. So all right. So rob and I are flying in the 7th friday, the 7th, and we're leaving on the 9th. I booked a late flight out on the 9th. I'm staying up late, so, if you guys can come, the hotel we're staying at, if you guys don't write this down, um, just uh, just hit me up and I will give you the info. But wait, let me see. Yeah, so the show, I'm on.
Speaker 5:You tell them to hit you up the. I will give you the info, but wait, let me see. Yeah, so the show I'm on you. Tell them to hit you up the show I'm not on, it's all, oh, email Rob with this.
Speaker 4:I actually sent the hotel info to Bobby. Let me see Bobby.
Speaker 5:Oh, Kyle says that he's picking up Enoch on his way down.
Speaker 4:Oh, that's good. Okay, right, bobby, what's the damn hotel?
Speaker 5:I'm pretty sure it's in the email Jason sent us. I'm sure it is. I'm sure all of our viewers are going to absolutely love this first segment.
Speaker 4:I'm sorry, guys. We're going to get to the main topic. All right, Bobby, text me the hotel so I can give it to everybody. So that's the deal. Friday, February 7th to the 9th, we are going to be in North Carolina, Charlotte, North Carolina. If you guys can make it, we really do. We're going to be pushing this a lot Thursday, this coming Thursday, in two days, we have Kennedy Hall coming on. So it's the first time we've had a Kennedy on in a while has he been on since the last fight we had?
Speaker 4:No, that's what I was saying. He hasn't been on since co-sleeping.
Speaker 5:Oh, so we got to come up with a supposed fight to have.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we got to figure something out, okay. So wait, bobby just sent it to me. Let's see, okay, comfort Suites Comfort Suites near the church at 7735 university city boulevard, charlotte, north carolina, which is about 10 minutes from the church. You can check in at the 3 pm the day you arrive. So comfort suites near the church at university city boulevard in charlotte, north carolina. If anybody needs more details than that, uh, dm me on twitter. If you guys watch the show and I don't follow you on twitter, just make a show reference to me and I'll follow you back.
Speaker 5:Like, as long as I know you're actually somebody watches and if you watch the show and don't follow us on twitter, what the heck? Yeah so actually I totally understand.
Speaker 4:I'm following anthony on twitter well, a lot of people don't have twitter, but if you guys want to get me, if you don't have Twitter, email, rob, we'll get you the info. No, we are going to have a moralism fight right now, so all right. So we're going to first do Charlie Kirk and Michael Knowles. Now I'm going to say this. I kind of just wanted the thumbnail to say the PPC debate. Rob sent me like scaredy cat apologetics and rob wanted to like fire at knolls a little bit. I'm gonna be a little more compassionate to him, even though I think he failed I was actually.
Speaker 5:I wanted to say scaredy cat knolls, but it's.
Speaker 4:That might have been a little much the thing is, I think he, I think he dropped the ball. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna say he did like he didn't. He definitely did, but I understand why he did. I don't know if people really understand what it's like being an Italian and you're in an uncomfortable situation. You just don't want it to be uncomfortable. So you're just kind of like all right, all right, I just don't want it to be uncomfortable.
Speaker 5:I don't know what it's like to be Italian and not want that, but I understand what it's like to be midwestern and not want to feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, that's true too, though, right, midwesterners don't really like like, and you're a phlegmatic like. You're not crazy about like confrontation like that either. It's not easy to do, you know. So noel's was way too cordial, trying to be witty and chummy with Kirk. Now the thing is, that's fine if Charlie Kirk was responding in kind, but he wasn't. Charlie Kirk was being nasty, cutting Michael off, not giving Michael a chance to even get his point out.
Speaker 5:And then when Michael would be A Protestant being nasty and cutting people off? Yeah, no, no, no, it was typical obnoxious Protestant behavior.
Speaker 4:And Michael was just being like, eh, right, and michael was just being like, there, right, settle down, just being like the cordial italian. I didn't think michael knowles was italian until I saw this video you thought it was all a lie I thought the whole thing was an act like kennedy hall yeah, kennedy's not really italian his last name's hall his last name's hall.
Speaker 4:This guy's last name is knowles, but when I saw michael knowles acting the way he did, I'm like, all right, maybe this guy's Italian, it's a little something to this. So, all right, let's bring up the Charlie Kirk Michael Knowles video. We'll probably stop it intermittently to critique some things that we're seeing. I do think he brought a few good arguments in, but I think he just wasn't forward enough about them. The thing I hate about what Catholics do when they argue against Protestants is they're always on defense. We should not be on defense Like call them out on their nonsense, ask them. You got to bring them back through history and just ask. Like, call them out. So what is your position? Are you trying to say that the Catholic Church is a pagan cult? Like, what are you trying to say? And then, once they is a pagan cult, like what, what are you trying to say?
Speaker 5:and then, once they, say that, I say, okay, well, take me through that. When does it become that then, and get to think about debates like these is like when you're discussing the faith with a protestant or like a friend yeah, you don't want to beat them down, but when you're, when you're doing something public, like this and you've got an audience Right, you need to defend the faith for everyone that's watching it. Yeah, that might mean that you absolutely lay a beat down on some low information kindergarten level Protestant. But who cares?
Speaker 4:Especially a dispensationalist. Low IQ Like Charlie Kirk is not your high theology high?
Speaker 5:church.
Speaker 4:Protestant who understands the arguments of the Reformation and can tell you about the Pope that said this. Charlie Kirk, as he's getting into the papacy, he's just like well, francis is a heretic. I can argue Francis is a heretic better than Charlie Kirk. These debates are so tiresome at this point. Look we have to make content. I don't know what to tell you. We are going to do two clips from Wes Huff and Joe Rogan.
Speaker 5:I don't even know who that is, I didn't either.
Speaker 4:So Wes Huff is apparently this evangelical of some kind and he debated this guy. Let's just do charlie kirk first, because people are going to lose their minds if we bury the lead worse than we already have you know how I realized I don't like jonathan pijot because I'd never heard his voice.
Speaker 5:And then I heard his voice. I've never heard charlie kirk's voice. This will be the first time. Shut up, I'm serious. Shut up everyone's charlie kirk's voice. No, I've never.
Speaker 1:I've never watched anything with him in it all right, let's say they're contradictory, but your goal should not to be to bring people to a specific his voice doesn't sound as dumb as his face.
Speaker 4:Okay, so I'll give okay so wait, I gotta give a preface. So a person stood up in the audience and asked michael knowles how he could better spread devotion to the eucharist, and michael knowles was like wow, this is the first time I've gotten a question that is something like that. I actually want to answer. You're doing a good thing. And then charlie kirk inserts himself and he goes. Well, I would say that you shouldn't just try to convert somebody to catholicism, but you should try to convert them to Jesus Christ, and that's where you've got to pick up.
Speaker 5:He starts off with something that like that generic low IQ ridiculous.
Speaker 1:They're contradictory. But your goal should not be to bring people to a specific sect of Christianity. It is to bring people to the cross.
Speaker 2:You're saying to bring people to the cross, you're saying, to bring people to the fullness of the truth and the universe, but not not the maxims of every catholic dogma.
Speaker 1:No, I mean, for example, am I a christian if I don't believe in mariology?
Speaker 2:no uh well, we're talking about the fullness of the truth you know, we're talking about, but you but there's, but you still there's.
Speaker 4:Like there's an audience around. I know what michael's doing. Look, michael, he's not gonna come right out and say, no, charlie, you're not a christian, but really it's. Michael should have just came back, which I get it. I totally get it, because that is a hard situation to be. You're very friendly with this person. Like you don't want to tell this person you go to hell. Like it doesn't go. Well, I'm telling you.
Speaker 5:How friendly are you with that person if you don't want to tell them the truth?
Speaker 4:It's not that you don't want to tell them the truth. You don't want to tell them he's going to hell in front of a bunch of people, like there are ways to do that where it's not. And it's not just that, michael also has a very large Protestant audience Right.
Speaker 4:He's not just alienating Charlie, but he's very Catholic on his show he doesn't water down the faith on his show. I'll give him that. I've watched a few Michael Knowles segments and he's like he's teaching Catholicism on his show, but the situation he's teaching Catholicism on his show, but the but, the, the situation he's in here he's not, he's not being, it's not like oh, we're at a religious debate. They were at a political thing and some kids stood up and asked him a question about Catholicism. So look, I'm not, I'm not saying he handled it right. I'm sorry, I get it Like I totally.
Speaker 4:I don't know if I could have handled it better than him in that situation that is a hard spot to be in and you of all people like, come on, you're a phlegmatic from the midwest, like yeah, but you see what I can get like, oh no, if you have a melancholic dump there's gonna be an issue.
Speaker 4:But he's not in that boat there, right, like he's not, he's not fed up, like he's, he's just trying to. He's like alright, I don't. Knowles is kind of like alright, I know where this could go. I kind of don't want to do the theology thing, but like I can't lie, so it's like well, you don't have the fullness of the truth. It's like and Charlie understood Michael means deep in his heart like no, you're not really a christian, like he kind of implied it. I'm not buying it all.
Speaker 2:Right, let's finish it substantiation you are a little confused if you don't, but you but you can, but you can have sincere, but you can have sincere no, it's fine.
Speaker 1:I just just. I think that bringing people to Catholicism is fine, of course, great, terrific, but that is hopefully a means to the ultimate end you exist to bring to people to yes, no.
Speaker 5:That is the ultimate end.
Speaker 4:That is the ultimate end. It is the ultimate end, end is the ultimate end. Like it's so frustrating that people don't grasp what catholicism is at all. Man, they really do. Just they have. They just think it's a bunch of stuff we do to earn heaven and it drives me freaking crazy man well to that.
Speaker 5:So you have two types of prats. You have the one that really does think like we're pagan right, and then you have the prots that really do think all you know types of christianity are the same. You know they're the true nominalists. They don't think there is, uh, any sort of universal truth. They just they think everything is just a name for I'll bring this back up.
Speaker 4:I don't want to distract you while we're talking. I'll bring that back up to him so.
Speaker 5:So I, I mean, it would seem like charlie is just one of those that really does think it doesn't matter what you are, it's all just different names, the same thing. Oh man, I I just so one thing. I kind of agree with greg here. I don't actually, so I'm kind of being hard on holes, but to me it actually seems like he's just trying to make charlie seem like a fool in it.
Speaker 4:To me it actually is kind of seems like it's working well, well, we all think charlie's making a fool of himself, like we, we, like, I think charlie's making a complete fool of himself. He's just he looks ridiculous. But I don't know if that's my bias, because I just think all protestants make fools of themselves and look ridiculous like that. That is a very like. I think most protestants that watch that thought charlie owned knolls yeah, I don't know I don't know.
Speaker 4:so wait, let's go back to timothy's comment. This is 100%, because Michael's friends with Kirk Michael led me to the TLM and I met him in person after the UMKC water gun incident After he was heckled for 30 minutes straight. He can. Oh yeah, that's the thing. Look, I'll say this about like Fred too, man, Like I've seen Fred say some pretty uncomfortable stuff to people like the his interview with um.
Speaker 5:Yes, yeah, exactly like he says, that was a great interview he says some pretty uncomfortable stuff, and and what was? Always seeming to be nasty or combative yeah, it was very, really interesting to watch made prager paint himself in a bad light, and it kind of seems to be what's going on here.
Speaker 4:Yeah, because what? Okay, so what I took from the Fred Prager thing was like okay, matt stood his ground on it, he didn't like bash Prager, but Prager dug himself a freaking hole and revealed something we could get into with the West Huff clip, where this, this, what, what. What Protestants think Jesus is condemning in the Pharisees is religion, and that's not what Jesus is condemning in the Pharisees, like. If you want to understand what Jesus is condemning in the Pharisees, just look at the modern Jews, at how they skirt the rules of Sabbath, right. So there's this thing they do in New York City where they hang a thin wire.
Speaker 5:A little PVC pipe on the electrical poles.
Speaker 4:On the electrical poles and they hang this wire and it goes around the entire freaking city and the reason they do that is because now they can consider their house it's the entire freaking city, like they're inside of this, this area, because the wire runs off of their building and it's connects to every single jewish.
Speaker 5:they see it as a fence that denotes that whole neighborhood as theirs and therefore none of the Sabbath laws apply within that.
Speaker 4:As if they were outside of their home. Right, they have this Shabbat light, right, the Shabbat light where the light is always on, but they just flip a little plastic thing in front of the light and now the light comes out. But if they can't, because they're not the weirdest freaking rules for the Sabbath that the Jews have, man, like, they're not allowed to flip a light switch on because that's touching electricity and that's work.
Speaker 5:That's survival.
Speaker 4:But you can flip a piece of plastic around because you didn't touch the electric thing itself and that will cover the light. And now? So these are the things that he's condemning the Pharisees for coming up with these legalistic ways to skirt around the actual law, which would be something like honor thy father or mother. Ok, so that means my parents in their old age. I have to care for them financially, but, mom and dad, I donated my money to the temple. Now I'm sorry. And now, meanwhile, their money is earning interest in the temple and they're still able to withdraw their money whenever they put. Mom and dad, I don't have the money to give you because it's in the temple. These are the things that Jesus is condemning. He's not condemning the ritual laws of the Mosaic covenant that God himself prescribes to them, and that's what, and that's what modern Protestants don't seem to grasp. So let's go back to this clip. We'll get into that stuff after that.
Speaker 1:That is the goal.
Speaker 2:I'm just maybe being semantically, you know, but think about this, this question if what happens when you want to bring people to to our lord and what happens when there are disagreements over important things.
Speaker 1:I mean not we schism and say you guys got it wrong or we do that's funny.
Speaker 4:He thinks that's funny. He thinks that's funny. What happens when you have a disagreement? What happens when you have a disagreement and you have to figure out what's going on? We schism and we just go start our own church. That's not funny.
Speaker 5:Well, especially because the Bible tells us, you treat them like the publican.
Speaker 4:It's not funny to do that. It's not funny to rip the bride of Christ apart, and that's what these people do and they act like, well, the church is just a like-minded body of believers, but there's nothing like-minded about the beliefs of the Protestants. There's nothing like that. They agree on a few things and those they call the essentials, but like what makes. But none of them agree on what the essentials are. No, that's true too. That's true too. Like it's it's. It's really actually evil. What he's laughing at right there seems so arrogant. He knows his audience is so low iq. He can just say anything sounding confident and they'll eat it up. Not only eat it up, laugh at it like it's humorous, like there's nothing funny about what he just said.
Speaker 5:Sorry, I'm stopping this thing every three seconds good thing it's only eight and a half minutes long guys all right, let's go.
Speaker 2:Let's go, let's play, I'll give a good minute on this one affirmation, but you know, so we're, we're at, uh, we're at christmas. Right now. We're at christmas time. We're talking about, uh, saint nicholas. You know, santa claus. I'm talking about jesus and well, no, but I'm talking about santa claus. There's, before we talk about our lord, the. But I'm talking about Santa Claus Before we talk about our Lord, but you know, there's this story All these characters.
Speaker 2:It's Jesus, it's focused on the main thing, but there's this story about St Nicholas who the legend. I don't think it's literally true, but the legend goes that St Nicholas, who Santa Claus is based on, shows up to the council of Nicaea and he smacks the heresiarch arias who denied the divinity of christ guarantee.
Speaker 4:He had to define what heresiarch meant to charlie after this, yeah, charlie would not even understand what that is right, that's first of isaac he's like council of nicaea.
Speaker 5:When was that?
Speaker 4:michael should have just punched charlie in the face as he was telling that story. As soon as charlie said something erratical, michael shouldn't have punched him well like smack them lightly, just santa claus yeah
Speaker 4:just roll your eyes at saint nicholas, charlie. Exactly, margo, listen. The thing is I'm not even not like, I'm not knocking noels like he's telling a good story here, like this. This whole thing is like I I feel for michael, feel for Michael, because you're in a room with a guy that you're friends with. You don't want it to become this tense, theological discussion, because these things get heated and especially the person who's wrong. The person who's wrong gets heated Always. That's why Rob got so mad about co-sleeping that night. This is what happens. The people that are wrong get all mad and busy and they leave the show. It's just the way it goes. Guys, get back here.
Speaker 3:I'm so glad we left, oh man.
Speaker 5:So I think, watching this now, because I didn't watch it beforehand, um, I think, no, should have really played into it more and and like, like, like I said, he should have been like oh, heresia, hold on, let me define that for you, charlie, you should have played into it, just yeah, I think he was look, man, because I saw bug hole tweeted out.
Speaker 4:he like this is. I was actually going to ask Bug to come on tonight, just to, because I wanted the counter to my. Let's go easy on him. I wanted somebody to push back on me a little, because I do. Part of me was like dude, just lay down the faith. Like say no, yeah, dude, actually no. If you don't believe Mary is the mother of God, you're denying a marion dogma and you're not going to be saved like.
Speaker 5:That's what you're denying a christological dogma too correct you're.
Speaker 4:That's really what it comes down to, right? So if you deny mariology, that means your christology is all out of whack.
Speaker 5:So oh no, come on, don't do this to me, cicero I actually I would cicero wants to know if we would do chosen season four I would what?
Speaker 4:no, we said no, we weren't gonna do it no, I said I wanted to put a poll up and if the audience wanted us to do it I would do it. I actually did enjoy doing that series. We did season three. I enjoyed ripping on it. Well, that's the thing it was good to have, like the diversity of opinions. Like jason loved it, you hated it, and I was kind of like in the middle playing devil's advocate on both sides and just like I found things annoying about it and I found things that I liked about it.
Speaker 4:So but let me do a poll. Paul says you guys hate watching. It's hilarious. The best part about that whole series was making Rob watch the episodes that's why he don't want to do it. He doesn't watch TV, he doesn't do any of that like he wants nothing. It's like homework for him. It's like, no, you have to watch it. Oh, look, who's here, I'm hanging with Joe. Saturday, so alright, let's get back to it. I'm hanging with Joe Saturday, so alright, let's get back to it okay, smacks him in the face.
Speaker 2:And this has led to a meme that I really like at Christmas, which is an icon of St Nicholas, and it says I've come here to give presents to children and to punch heretics in the face and I'm all out of presents, and so I don't think it really happened and it would have been a corrective slap and all the rest, but. But the serious question is what? What happens when someone has a question on something really important like is Christ God? You know the divinity of Christ. There has to be an interpretive hermeneutic to figure it out.
Speaker 1:Of course, yeah, and look to be very clear. Like nine out of 10 of Catholic dogmas, evangelicals hold nine out of 10. Right, and that? That is why I believe Catholics are Christian, even though you don't give me that same.
Speaker 2:No, I would.
Speaker 1:I'm giving a hard time and I mean that it's again if you are a Catholic who loves Jesus. Therefore, and I know that it just I believe that there are personally some fundamental issues with, like I say, mariology, transubstantiation, which we're not going to get into, but the biggest one is the papacy. I can't get over the idea of this Marxist, who calls himself the head of your church, being a representative.
Speaker 4:You got to pause there. So all right, first of all, bring that. So you're so right. Attack Protestant BS. No more defense. Hebrews 6.1.2 says confirmation laying on of hands is basic. Protestants don't even know the basics according to Scripture. They don't get to question us. My thing that I, the thing I hate the most about when Catholics and Protestants are in conversation, is that we're always defending our dogmas. We're always defending and I have no problem if there's a Protestant with an open mind and he's like all right, well, explain this to me. Like why do you guys believe this? But if they're just throwing these accusations out about the things we believe, like, oh, I just can't get behind the papacy, and you know I can't, just I just can't get behind this idea that this marxist is is the pope and it brings to light that francis is one of the biggest impediments to evangelization nowadays charlie would say that about any pope, because he's a liberal, he can't.
Speaker 5:He can't get his, he can't wrap his mind around himself, the individual not being the most important part of his universe, right? Yeah that's what it comes down to. I agree.
Speaker 4:Yes, francis is a huge impediment to people coming to the faith the thing is they, they have an argument with francis, but there's also a way to handle that, where it's like, okay, so you would leave the church because there's one bad leader and I and you push back. You say okay, well what.
Speaker 5:Say okay, well, what doctrine has, you would leave Jesus for Judas.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and what doctrine has? What has Francis changed about the? What doctrine has he changed about the Catholic faith? Like, the Catholic faith is still intact, even with a Marxist at the head of the church.
Speaker 5:Death penalty.
Speaker 4:Okay, he's tried, but he's tried. And the thing is even that, though, like, even that, this is like I do think there might be a way for the church to have to correct things. Oh, it's fun that bring up the death penalty, that are so adamant. It's inadmissible. It's like you're telling me the 2000 year church teaching has been overturned, but, and it's like you're telling me the 2 000 year church teaching has been overturned, but, and it's been overturned for five years and you don't think we could turn it back. Like you don't think right, like, like, okay, so this five-year-old teaching, you don't think we just flip it back the other way, like come on.
Speaker 4:You're willing to say saint paul in in errant scripture was wrong, but I can't say francis is wrong yeah, and and it's, and it's like there's, there has to be a little bit of time for the church to make corrective error, like to correct the errors that do pop up, because errors do pop up throughout church history and then we correct them. I mean, you go back and you see we've had heretical Pope, so it's like I don't know. Now we have a cada cadaver centered on this guy. You know what I mean. Like that's just kind of what the church does. Like things do get a little dicey for a little while.
Speaker 5:The arianism heresy was pretty ruthless and the whole freaking church fell apart, and then it gets corrected over time. The problem, like the biggest problem with vatican 2, is that it was.
Speaker 4:It didn't correct any error yeah, yeah, it wasn't, it should have corrected the the error of hyperfapalism that arose after v Vatican I.
Speaker 4:It should have addressed the freaking sexual revolution, it should have addressed communism. It should like these are the things the council should have actually addressed and instead it went in and did some pastoral nonsense and it just made everything much worse. But I also think that if the church corrects those, I'm not even gonna call them errors. If the church has to correct course a little bit, which I do think is going to call them errors If the church has to correct course a little bit, which I do think is going to happen, I don't think when you look at this 400 years from now, you're going to say the church fell into error and the church is like okay, we have a Marxist at the head of the church, even let's grant that, which you know that's whatever Like let's he might have a Marxist bend.
Speaker 4:I don't think he's an actual Marxist.
Speaker 5:He's got some Marxist tendencies, though. The fact is, this would be too dogmatic for him.
Speaker 4:You know what I mean.
Speaker 5:It's too rigid.
Speaker 4:It's way too rigid, Like I also don't think that the church falls apart even with a man like that at its helm, because the church has this stable foundation that it's working with, and it's a foundation that's 2000.
Speaker 5:But to me it's like what bellock said. You know, the greatest argument for the church is that it more or less that it didn't collapse up, you know, in two weeks, under its leaders. Yeah, because it's run by imbecilic men.
Speaker 4:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I heard something yesterday I might have been like a youtube short where somebody, like somebody that watched the, somebody that watched the um, the watergate scandal and he goes the watergate scandal proved christianity to me. The guy goes what do you mean? He goes. Well, these 12 men witnessed the death and resurrection of christ and they went out and they stuck to their stories so much that they were all willing to be martyred and died over a 40 year period. During Watergate I watched 12 guys over a three month period and not one of them could stick to this story because it was like all of them were lying. You know, nobody goes out and dies for a lie, and it was something along those lines. It was told much better than what I saw.
Speaker 4:But yeah, there's something to me like the fact that the church still stands 2,000 years later is the greatest proof of Christianity. To me, the fact that it has that, this kingdom, that the kingdom of heaven comes to earth, and it's still standing 2,000 years later, after the enlightenment, after the sexual revolution, after all of it, we still have the church Like. That is the greatest enlightenment after the sexual revolution. After all of it, we still have the church like that after moralism. It's almost more provable today than it was in in 80 years. Right, yeah, we'll get to that, though, because I didn't know moralism was a philosophy.
Speaker 5:I thought he was actually talking about morality or something and he I don't know what he was, I didn't listen, yeah you didn't hear. You didn't hear that yeah he might have, he might not have meant the actual philosophy of moralism I'm not.
Speaker 5:I'm not tim gordon guys like I didn't go to, I didn't go to the, I didn't go to uh, any college for philosophy so you ever wonder if gordon like goes to dictionarycom and just pulls up a list of words and have them sorts by length and then just he does say some pretty wild things on his streams.
Speaker 4:I'm like Tim you're the only friend I have that I need to keep a thesaurus around just to know what the hell you're saying.
Speaker 5:Thesaurus, you mean dictionary.
Speaker 4:Oh my gosh. No a thesaurus, because he says words that mean other things. Rob, I know what a thesaurus is. All right, let's play the rest of the clip. Thesaurus is a funnier word than dictionary.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to be funny. Temptation of Christ, our Lord. I just and I mean that as someone who loves the Catholic impact on the world that says it openly and by the fruit. You will know it and you have very Marxist fruit.
Speaker 2:I guess my sort of last question on evangelization is Evangelism or evangelization, both Okay. What happens when we get the next pope? Can we pull you over then? You know what if we get like, who decided that? Well, I will say I mean John.
Speaker 1:Paul II was amazing. I just think that there is a question to be asked of why is that specific process, that mechanism, given more merit than, let's just say, the local church and or the word of god, and you'd say okay because that mechanism delivers us, you, charlie kirk, and that's why come on interpretation. You know it's the final resolution to fine no that's fine.
Speaker 1:I just that I would. I ask the question if you are all in on, you know, the papacy and the vatican. No practicing catholic can look and say this is the best that my religion has to offer, charlie, you're you're thinking too much about it.
Speaker 4:You got to have the italian spirit first off, no one's ever told charlie kirk he was thinking too much no, but even like what he, he is thinking too much about and I know michael's gonna go into some corny little thing, but he's thinking too much about.
Speaker 5:It's like the pope isn't always what the best of the religion has has to offer, like sometimes you get awful popes if we wanted the best catholicism, had to answer, had to offer we wouldn't have 80 year olds vote for the guy it's just, it's just not what it is.
Speaker 4:it's, it's the. The fact that you have a man like francis and the church doesn't collapse under his leadership is proof of its divine institution. Yeah, it's not just Americanism, it's Zionism too. Like Charlie Kirk is, like he is a Zionist to the core man, Like these guys it's hard to even take anything. It's hard to even think of him as Christian to me, Like I want to become a Pope Spleen or solely to spike Perks Bradford.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I feel the same way Kind of the thing is I think there's a place for all of us to be Pope Spleeners. When you're arguing with a Protestant, like like. I think it's okay for us as catholics to have like inside conversations like oh my gosh man, this guy's driving me nuts, like it. There's a level of holy crap, I have such francis fatigue. This guy is a total wreck. But when I'm dealing with a protestant, it's like shut your mouth, don't talk about my father. Like I'm gonna defend this, I'll defend like. When we get to charlie actually making the accusations of heresy and stuff it, it's like name the heresy, tell me what heresy is. You can't even define heresy. That's my favorite part when Protestants say that's heresy. Who the hell defines heresy? Oh, the Bible. The Bible does not define heresy in any place, anywhere at all. Charlie Kirk makes you. I don't know about that. Now he does. Kirk might be that guy that united all the clans. All right, let's finish it up now the italians finish it out.
Speaker 5:We're not even halfway through oh, we don't know.
Speaker 2:When you know someone asks a in this newspaper, the pope said something where you say oh well, maybe the Papa was misinterpreted. You know, it's no big deal, forget about it. You're too Anglo to understand that, too Anglo Attitude.
Speaker 1:I have to just hope you know. It doesn't mean that homosexuality is bad.
Speaker 2:Okay, we should just no, he said God can't bless sin.
Speaker 1:I know sometimes it's confusing. 'm not gonna give you that to anglo, though right especially americans.
Speaker 4:Like americans have that revolutionary spirit, because our founding is on revolution, our founding, our country, is founded on civil war with the king. So they, anything that they don't like it's like, well, just throw off the king, like that is in the American myth. So it is inherent in the way they see everything, and that goes from church to state, to everything. They don't grasp the concept of obedience in any way whatsoever and they think they're being obedient to Christ, but they're not. They're actually the definition of what like they're being obedient to christ, but they're not. They're actually the definition of what like they're the definition of disobedience, because they're saying, well, no, faith alone and my sins don't matter it's, it's like you hold. You don't hold yourself to any standard of accountability. The only thing I'll say, like protestants get mad at, is if, like their pastor, has an affair that's in, you know the pastor, he fell, and then all of a sudden, it's well, he was never saved to begin with. Which is a proportion right, the guy goes to.
Speaker 5:Like that, nobody can ever be assured you know what's an even bigger sin to the protestants than the affair? If, god forbid, the pastor embezzles all the money they gave them they forgive that.
Speaker 4:I don't know they're running around in lear jets and stuff, but they know this. There's like the the only unpardonable sin for products is homosexuality.
Speaker 5:It's like where which is ironic for someone as gay as charlie kirk it's just they have certain things.
Speaker 4:they'll say, no, god can't forgive that sin. Like you know, it's funny the way their sins are forgivable because they're not gay. It's like what do you mean If a person who is gay and they have faith alone, why would that sin be any different? Well, because it says so. Yeah, but there's plenty of sins the Bible mentions. Let's try and get through this, because people are going to lose it and we're going to have to do the Wes Huff stuff on the other side.
Speaker 1:That one. He's been way more open on that topic or the climate change thing, the climate change and all this sort of stuff. You just have to kind of hope that he's saying that we want one of the same saying that we want one of you.
Speaker 2:Just kind of. It's like I, my grandmother, sometimes, when she, uh, when one of her grandchildren says something that she doesn't like, she, she kind of turns down the hearing aid a little bit.
Speaker 1:And so sometimes you know, if you turn down the hearing aid on certain issues, and I I mean this like non-sarcastically, but like why should I care at all what that guy from argentina has to say?
Speaker 2:well, because you care what your pastor has to say.
Speaker 1:Yes, but if my pastor starts saying crazy things, I find a new pastor. So if your Pope starts saying crazy things, maybe he's not the Pope and like maybe that's a bad representation.
Speaker 5:Charlie Kirk is seed. Can confirm yes.
Speaker 2:Well, I guess if your pastor says crazy things, you go to a new pastor and then you have division in the church. It used to be in the old days. It used to be if the pastors disagreed they'd go to an elder or a bishop or someone Right? Unless the bishop is corrupted and then you take it up higher yeah.
Speaker 1:And then maybe the pope is corrupted and we write 95 points of complaints and hammer them through a door and the get back to the word.
Speaker 2:Well, the, the the issue is that one of the marks so you can't have constant.
Speaker 2:You know schism and and so I'm not. I'm not disagreeing about, uh, difficulties in the prelature at all, but, but there's a line from Hilaire Belloc and he says he has to take it on faith that the Catholic Church is really what it says it is. But for those who don't believe that one mark of its divine institution is that no other institution conducted with such knavish imbecility would have lasted a fortnight, and I think there's actually a lot of truth to that. That you know, when one points to the corruption of individuals or bad popes or whatever, but plenty of them, that that actually that's kind of an evidence of the because so many other ecclesial communities, you know they appear and then you know you leave this path.
Speaker 1:I just I think that's fine, I guess. I mean, I think that if you have the Bible as any sort of semblance of a bedrock, you're going to last.
Speaker 2:But who?
Speaker 6:canonizes the.
Speaker 2:Bible.
Speaker 1:They don't. There's not a single.
Speaker 4:Protestant denomination that claims the Bible alone that lasted. They all fall apart. There's not a single one that you can say from the Reformation. You look at what is happening in Lutheranism, the PCA, look at all of them.
Speaker 5:They're all delving into how many lutherans you have. The methodist church just split like not just split rob.
Speaker 4:They're accepting female pastors and bishops.
Speaker 5:Well, the half that accepts them is the other half that didn't want that split.
Speaker 4:It's just the bible does nothing.
Speaker 5:The thing is, I didn't choose to watch this. This is his fault.
Speaker 4:Let me tell you something 750 live viewers right now, 360 on YouTube. How many Raymond's got a?
Speaker 5:great point here. If Charlie disagrees with his wife or his wife starts saying crazy things, does he just go and find a new wife? Actually, he probably does, because he's a Protestant.
Speaker 4:It's what they do and they will get divorced yeah, yeah, 100 yeah, that's the thing. They even do that right now. I mean, catholics aren't much better these days with that but protestantism is simply the sin of voluntarism.
Speaker 5:It's whatever they want to do, whenever they want to do it um, I just know we have 366 people watching on youtube.
Speaker 4:Do we have 366 likes?
Speaker 5:is my question let me check right now.
Speaker 4:Guys, please like. We have 80 likes, you are losers. Oh, come on you guys.
Speaker 5:Just hit like what does it take to hit?
Speaker 4:like I don't understand you guys. Let's try and get quick to the end of this, okay.
Speaker 2:He left us a Bible.
Speaker 1:He left us a church, and the church that codified the Bible church that caught by the sort of true I mean no, that's sort of exactly true godship. God is the author of all 66 books yeah right and we had 73 wait oh you slipped that in. Hey, come on, you can't do that to me all the time no, this is interesting, though wait, why is it that catholics acknowledge divine books that jews themselves don't think are divine?
Speaker 5:oh my gosh, I love this. I love first century. Jews did think they were divine.
Speaker 4:Who's just besides that didn't do you know when the jews got rid of it? They called a council in the year 90 and they got rid of those books and they got rid of those.
Speaker 5:It was later than that even if. But whatever we'll say, 90 we'll give them 90 it was why it was while they were in babylon after, like, not not the babylonian exile, I mean after rome destroyed the temple and destroyed and raised jerusalem to the ground two minutes ago, because I really want to get to the part about him saying the jews to find the canon I see bobby popping in here, hang on.
Speaker 4:The pharisees, saddues and Essenes all had different canons in the time of Christ. Rabbinical Judaism is a response to the fall of the temple, which means Christianity is older. So look, when he says the Pharisees, sadducees and Essenes all had different manuscripts, all had different canons, he's not wrong. The Sadducees only had the five books of Moses. Which is why when they go to Jesus and they say and they don't believe in the resurrection because they don't have the prophets, they don't have anything like that. So Jesus brings to them and he says what does this say? It says God is the God of Abraham, isaac and Jacob. I am the God of the living, not the dead right. So he has to prove to them from the five books of Moses. There is no consensus amongst jews on the biblical canon. So anything that happens after the destruction of the temple, the first of anything that happens after the crucifixion, once the temple veil is torn, is irrelevant what the jews accept like it's.
Speaker 5:The jews themselves even say their uh, their little yom kippur, uh thing stopped working in 33 AD 33 AD. They say that in their own Talmud.
Speaker 4:So, and not just that you have. Oh man, I had a point, I just lost it.
Speaker 5:Bobby just paid us 50 bucks.
Speaker 4:Oh, I love Bobby, he's the best. What did he say? The Amish are not capable of recognizing the word of God, even if it became incarnate and walked around performing miracles right in front of them. They certainly don't have the authority to define it once the Holy Spirit is already guiding the church. Right, there's. This is such, it's so baffling to me that they don't grasp this. It's like first of all, I, he can like, I really do. I think enoch should be in the canon, but the church decided not, so I'll let it.
Speaker 5:I'll let it I'll trust you just like it, because in the nephilim yeah, well, no, I like the whole.
Speaker 4:First of the, the phrase son of man comes directly from the book of enoch. So, like so many of the prophecies of the son of man, the son of man is coming from the book of enoch, which then gets referenced in daniel and then finally gets brought back in by Jesus. Like Jesus is referencing Enoch, st Paul is referencing Enoch when he talks about women veiling and he says as so as not to tempt the angels. That's a reference to the angels being tempted in the book of Enoch. Like I do think Enoch is a pretty awesome book and, especially for our current times, like it kind of explains some of the weird stuff we see.
Speaker 5:And just like some of the New Testament Apocrypha, like the Proto-Evangelium of James, like there is worthwhile stuff in there. We get a lot of traditions from, like some of the New Testament.
Speaker 4:Apocrypha.
Speaker 5:Most of our Christmas traditions are from that Proto-Evangel, proto evangelion, like almost hardly any of it is in the new, like what we, what we know about mary and ann and joe kim, that's from the proto evangelion. The james, the church, just the church decided that it wasn't inerrant, that's all, yeah, not that it was worthless yeah, that's the thing.
Speaker 4:It's not. It doesn't mean it's worth a little more.
Speaker 5:Worthless, like the gospel of thomas, worthless, but yeah, so the but the.
Speaker 4:The only reason they really got rid of it was because it affirmed catholic doctrine. It wasn't because the jews didn't accept like. None.
Speaker 5:Of that is actually the new testament quotes the septuagint, which of course course includes the Deuterocanon, 340 times. It only quotes the Pharisees' Masoretic text 30 times. Yet Protestants don't care.
Speaker 4:They just don't know, because they just trust. They act like we're wrong for trusting the church fathers, where everyone has church fathers. Their church fathers just happen to be from the 16th century. Ours are from the first century.
Speaker 5:Charlie's is Darby and Schofield from the 1800s.
Speaker 4:Exactly right, and so many. That's the other thing. Like most modern Protestants, they're not even Reformation Protestants. Most of them are 20th century evangelicals with made up doctrines that never existed before. So when they say, if you can't find your theology in the Bible, your traditions are man-made. No, if your theology popped up in the 20th century, your theology is man-made. That's how it really works. It's very frustrating. So he winds up getting into a bunch of stuff about Francis. At this point I mean, let's just write it out whatever.
Speaker 1:Okay, the keepers of the Torah don't even agree with your canon. Well, it's like the wisdom of Ben Sera first and second Maccabees. According to rabbinical teaching, those are not divinely inspired.
Speaker 5:What rabbinical actually? There is a part of the talmud where one. So because the talmud is a collection of letters of from rabbis back and forth, where they're discussing the law and issues, and one of the rabbis in the talmud considered the wisdom of ben-Torah, which is the book of Sirach, to be canon, not just that, not just that Jesus celebrates Hanukkah which is from the book of Maccabees right, like modern Jews, celebrate Hanukkah because of the book of Maccabees.
Speaker 4:I heard a rabbi one time thanking the Catholic Church for preserving these texts because they didn't preserve them themselves, because they were so anti-Catholic in the first two centuries, like they were so against.
Speaker 5:So the canon that Charlie is talking about was actually developed in about the 700s. It was translated by a group called the Masoretes a Jewish group called the Masoretes, which is why it's called Masoretic. But like, yeah, this was 700 years. The Jews decided to throw away Bacchus.
Speaker 4:Yeah yeah, it's just absurd. And the end oh man, we could get into the modern celebration of hanukkah and that was really just a freaking a way to subvert christmas, but we'll let it go and then we'll move on to kwanzaa books, yet catholics say, we like those.
Speaker 1:Why?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, so, for there are a few reasons one, that the due reams is, which is the catholic bible is based on the septuagint. The masoretic texts which come later are the ones that the protestant bible and the more recent catholic bibles are based on. There's there is, uh, some discrepancy, at least in numbering of certain things. But also, I mean, you say, well, if rabbinical jews think one thing, why don't you think that? And I'd say, I don't know, because we're we're a different religion no, but hold on a second.
Speaker 1:No, no, but, no. But we, we're the inheritors of the torah, as referenced by people that were schooled in that so, and the tanakh so. The protestantism has an identical, mirrored image of the torah and the tanakh, and they again in traditional rabbinical teaching. They do not believe those books are divinely inspired anyway, I I know the answer.
Speaker 5:Anyway, let me not let michael respond to this, I was gonna say anyway, anyway, these are all things that they take like 20 minutes to fully discuss this whole freaking thing like I look.
Speaker 4:that's why I said like I'm not gonna be too hard on michael because I I think he handled it the best he could. I know people are like that's so frustrating, he's being way too easy. Mich Michael is very amicable. I am very amicable, so I am going to judge him. I'm going to judge with the measure that I want to be judged with, because I know people will lambast me for doing similar things in similar situations.
Speaker 4:I remember when I had my cousin on Remember how much I had to edit out of that thing with my cousin. Like I had like an hour and a half conversation with my Protestant cousin and I was trying to help her see like the the Catholic position without offending her. And like when I went through, I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't believe. I said that. Oh my God, like I had to. I thank God I pre-recorded that you guys would have killed me. You guys would have literally chewed me up alive, and even with the stuff I put out, there's still a couple of things. I was very early on too, though I think as we go through these experiences, you learn from them. I think Michael hopefully learned a little something from this.
Speaker 5:Yeah, don't trust Protestants, but also.
Speaker 4:I think anytime you get put, especially when you catch criticism from the outside, right, you're like okay, all right, let me brush up on what I need to know here. You know, it's just. I think he didn't say anything false. He did the best he could and I think Charlie made a fool of himself. So I'm going to give Michael a B minus.
Speaker 5:I don't know.
Speaker 3:He didn't do as bad as I thought he did. He didn't fail.
Speaker 5:I think Charlie's just an ass that didn't like. Well, number one obviously ambushed him. Number two didn't actually let him talk and just kept switching from subject to subject to subject. You guys don't want me drinking on stream?
Speaker 4:yeah, yeah yeah, we're done with that. It's fun once a year, guys. Next new year's, we'll do it on new year's uh. But if anybody does want to drink with me, we will be. Uh, on february 8th we'll be down in charlotte, north carolina. We want as many people to come to this as possible. It's 40 bucks to go to the conference. Then you just got to get travel there and get the hotel room for the night. If you guys stay at the hotel room telling your conference is over at six, we're going back to the hotel. We are hanging out all night. I'll buy everybody food. I'll get everybody drinks.
Speaker 5:Come on, it's going to be a really fun time it'll be like 11 o'clock and he'll spend like 200 bucks on Taco Bell Not even slightly kidding.
Speaker 4:Whatever they're giving me for the conference, I will spend on everybody's good time Like I don't care, I'm not going for the money. Like they throw me a few hundred bucks, I will spend it on drinks and food for everybody Like we're hanging out. I want to meet our fans.
Speaker 1:I hate saying fans.
Speaker 4:I want to make new friends.
Speaker 5:We want to make new friends.
Speaker 4:It's in Charlotte, North Carolina. It's $40 to go to the conference.
Speaker 5:And Anthony promises to drink only bourbon.
Speaker 4:That's not happening. I'm going to drink some sweet. I'm going to have chocolate martinis or something.
Speaker 5:It's North Carolina. I don't think they make those.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you're probably right, we'll figure something out. I'll bring a bottle of uh, just like election. Anthony will pass out and ralph will be stuck paying for all the drinks 100 percent. Um, yeah, guys, come on, come down, man, come and meet up with us. It's really, it's gonna be a fun time. You guys will all enjoy yourselves. I'll tell you one thing I'll get you a nice glass of rosé Ant.
Speaker 4:I don't even have a talk planned yet. I have some notes jotted down For the people that come that watch this show. I'm going to tell a story or two you've heard on air. You're not coming for my talk. That's not what you're coming for. You guys are coming to hang out after and we're hanging out all night after. So anybody that can please meet us down there. Me and Rob are going to go to the other side and we're going to talk.
Speaker 5:Anthony's going to go drink for drink with Rick Barrett.
Speaker 4:You think I could see a drinker?
Speaker 5:I don't know. You're both short, so we'll see what happens.
Speaker 4:I'm not that short. I just take pictures with tall people all the time, like all the time.
Speaker 5:Every time somebody wants a picture, it's 6'5". That one picture from Italy was amazing. It made you look like a midget.
Speaker 4:Dude, I'm not kidding, he's 6'6", no joke. And then the kid Pete from the kid Peter from Australia, the seminarian I met, 6'4". I'm like, dude, can you stand a step below me? Like this isn't fair. Every picture I take I look like I'm Jason's size. It's ridiculous.
Speaker 5:Jason's only an inch shorter than you.
Speaker 4:I'm very much taller than Father Ripper.
Speaker 5:yes, I suppose you've met. What about Kevin James? You taller than Kevin James.
Speaker 4:I saw him at midnight. Well, I didn't go to saint rocco's this week. This week I went to saint matthews. Oh, we got before we go, before we go oh no, before we go priest.
Speaker 4:Priest on sunday I'm coming. Can we smoke cigars? Yes, we absolutely can. Um, okay, so sunday the priest before his homily does just a couple of announcements about communion. You know, I don't really know where this tradition started, but I see some of you come up like this and you want the blessing, and this is a new practice that needs to stop.
Speaker 1:He literally said this what is this?
Speaker 4:Hey, anthony, if you like the Nephilim, enoch, a good book is. The Unseen Realm by Michael S Heiser Will warn you, it is not Catholic but I read it and it doesn't in my mind contradict Catholic beliefs. Much love, it is a really good book. Think you will like it. Maybe I'll read that and we'll do a show on. Like the nephilim and the book of enoch, I will use sisera, I will use that money to buy the book. You know what we'll?
Speaker 5:have to do give that book to hitchborn and have hitchborn on for the show right, yeah, let him read. That is a hitchborn show if I've ever heard absolutely so.
Speaker 4:The so the priest tells everybody you know, uh, first off, when you do this, like that is actually the practice in the east. So, uh, bobby told me this when we were in uh california of california, in uh italy, when he goes up to receive community in california, he goes up like this when he receives, like this is the posture you make when you're received. So, when we were, when we were in italy, uh, one of the guys that we were with his name, one of the guys that we were with his name, one of the guys we were there with Jason.
Speaker 5:We do basically subcontract all the weird episodes out to each one. He's the best.
Speaker 4:So the guy Jason we were with is not a confirmed Catholic. So the whole two weeks we were there he would go up like this to receive communion and get a blessing. Now that was fine when we had the American priest there. But the Italian priest looked at him like he had three heads and he went to give it to him on the tongue he's like, and he went like this and the priest was so confused Like this is such an American thing? Yeah, it is. This is not practiced in any other country. But my priest was just like look, you know, I understand some people do it in the Novus Ordo, but this is a Latin mass and if you're not receiving communion there's nothing wrong with sitting in your pew. Just sit in your pew and it's. You know, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Speaker 4:There's many reasons why somebody would not receive. It could be they didn't fast before mass. It could be a number of reasons. It doesn't need to be something that anybody looks at or points out. People do have to be comfortable with. When I go up to receive and I see somebody sitting in their pew, I'm like good for you, man. That to me seems like somebody who actually takes it seriously.
Speaker 5:It's more commendable in a sense.
Speaker 4:Because they take it seriously. Yeah for sure.
Speaker 5:Because no one misses communion in the Novus Ordo.
Speaker 4:Yeah, typically, for sure. So yeah, I don't know, If you guys do that at your parish, maybe you should knock it off. That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 5:I think we need to get back to the old tradition of forgetting the whole Anglo line. You know thing and people would just go up whenever they were ready. You know what I mean.
Speaker 4:Yeah, because the whole idea of the usher telling you your aisle is right, like that is such a protestant thing it's ridiculous.
Speaker 4:One of our priests at the tln did the same thing this past sunday. He incorporated not liking the idea of coming up for blessings into a sermon. Good for you. Priests need to start speaking out on this stuff. Very good, we are very happy to hear that the priests are starting to say it in a way where the people understand it's not a knock to you, it doesn't sound like I'm saying it, where it's like knock it off your bums. You guys are just taking up time for the rest of us who just want to get the hell out of there after mass. Kidding, I stay for an hour after mass and I pray in quiet and solitude. I never leave it. You, quiet and solitude, I never leave it. Yeah, you definitely don't stand at the back waiting to see if anyone recognized you. This time and it's gonna come. It's like my thing. No, I actually dipped out the streets.
Speaker 4:I had a cold it's okay, I used to be a eucharistic minister most of the ushers are just knights of columbus, for the most part, right. They're usually like the older guys. They're knights and you know they help out at the parish, they help with the potlucks and things like that.
Speaker 5:They listen to Susan and do whatever she says. We're going to go and discuss this Wes Huff thing.
Speaker 4:There's two things. So one is the clip that was going around YouTube, but there's another clip where Joe is talking about they were talking about the resurrection and like Wes was doing a really good job with it, until the end of this clip where Joe is like he's like you know, but towards you know, how can we trust people who believe all sorts of wacky stuff at this time, and you know they believe the whole bunch of stuff? That wasn't true. But then how come we're supposed to believe that this was true? And I'm like I nearly lost my mind because of the way it was worded.
Speaker 5:So we're going to discuss that half the country believed wearing masks was a good idea just five years ago, like so what?
Speaker 4:but it was west saying that like even the ancient greek, uh, philosophers like um, like they were all like priests of apollo and things like that, like the, the ancients had no problem believing in supernatural events. Like to them, it was more absurd that we would worship a crucified man like a crucif, like why would you worship this on a cross? Like it's just preposterous. But it wasn't the super, now, it wasn't the miracles or the resurrection. That was a hard thing for them, it was the. It was the crucified like the crucif. The cross is a stumbling block to the greek and and and no, it's a it's, it's folly to the greek and a stumbling block to the jew.
Speaker 4:So like they were getting into that, but like no, they weren't believing things that weren't true. These people, they were seeing supernatural things because the gods were real. Like that's what I was getting frustrated with. So we're going to play a quick clip from that. And then the other thing where Rob and I argued on Twitter about moralism. So we're going over to locals. You guys are not locals, members you guys should be locals members it is the easiest way to support us.
Speaker 4:It is less than the cost of a cup of coffee a month at this point, because coffee is five dollars at this point. Five bucks a month, you can't like. We give the cheapest price possible. Five bucks a month. You guys pay 15 for netflix 15, but we give you guys four hours netflix is like 20 bucks an hour yeah, we give you guys four hours of material every week. We rarely miss an episode Like you go back and you look over the past two and a half three years we do.
Speaker 5:Do you know how many live streams we have have after this one?
Speaker 4:How many? Yes, Just guess man. It's gotta be like 400 or something right 394. That's crazy.
Speaker 5:We will have over 400 live streams within a month that is dude.
Speaker 4:Think about that. That's. That's twice a week for three years, pretty much, yep, and and sometimes three like sometimes we would throw a saturday and things like that. So, all right, we're gonna go over there. If you guys like our show, please support us over there. We do. We have more fun over there than we do over here. Me and rob are gonna have a a brawl over there, so join us. We have more fun over there than we do over here.
Speaker 5:Me and Rob are going to have a brawl over there, so join us.
Speaker 4:Okay, switching us over now. Okay, we are live only on Locals.
Speaker 5:All right, let me just pull, pull up my local stream here. By the way, the final poll was 55. Say no, we should not do the joke.
Speaker 4:Okay good, I don't really want to do it yeah, all right, so there is a close. As in the talk of mcelroy, I had a bunch of stories loaded in. I did not think the knolls thing was gonna take the whole episode what more is there to say about mackerel? We all, we all know who he is yeah, it's terrible well, we all saw this coming like I wanted to talk trump today too.
Speaker 5:Trump did some funny stuff today he like he actually looks like he's pushing for canada and greenland.
Speaker 4:Dude he was funny today, man, like just like somebody posted that, like sometimes foreign policy decisions can be made just because they're funny, like that's a reasonable reason to do something. Foreign policy was I don't see why not honestly the, the, the canada thing is hilarious, the padamon thing, the greenland thing, that's funny there was something else.
Speaker 5:You see the video of the guy from greenland who's like yeah, yeah I want the us to buy us please spill my pig like do you have any idea what it's like like sending taxes to denmark?
Speaker 4:sending taxes to denmark, but like they would get us passports, like they could just go to the us anytime they want. The canada thing is scary because canada would just be another california like I'm, I'm okay with empire.
Speaker 5:Right, I'm okay with the us being an empire not a democracy yeah right, I don't want it to be because they're a democratic empire is just stupid. But like, yeah, canadians won't get to vote, no, I don't want that. You know what I mean.
Speaker 4:Like yeah, that's scary, that's, that's california, the second california. Yeah, that's what it was. We're gonna. We're gonna name the gulf of mexico the gulf of america. But he just did the troll, the troll, the journalists and media dude, they told you oh, it's gonna be such a fun, four years man I saw.
Speaker 5:I saw a gif of like scrooge mcduck, you know, diving to his money pool and it said cartographers.
Speaker 4:After trump's second administration, the thing is like the one thing that did scare me today, though, when he was talking about the prisoners, the freaking, the Hamas freaking prisoners. They got the Jewish prisoners.
Speaker 5:The hostages, the hostages.
Speaker 4:He's like we will level the middle east if you don't give that. And I'm like, come on, man, stop with the freaking israeli stuff like I don't want to freaking, go to war for israel no oh, I'm like I am just so tired of the israel stuff I don't even want to talk about it.
Speaker 4:I really don't. But, father, no, catherine bennett, he messaged me yesterday from catholic unscripted she goes what do you think about? Uh, father maudsley, I'm like I love the man. She goes. I think he's incredibly brave. I'm like you'd be incredibly brave. Get him on like that is incredibly brave. You had him. I said if you have an outlet outside of youtube door, but I don't. I don't know how you bring him on youtube anymore his youtube channel's still around.
Speaker 5:It's his twitter that got hammered oh really yeah his.
Speaker 4:He lost his twitter he's suspended for a month holy cow for posting the youtube video that talked about it all, like his youtube's, okay okay, so we do have to talk about zuckerberg for a second because he's saying he's going to lighten up on restrictions, right, do you think youtube will? No, you don't think they will. Like, what do we really have to worry about on YouTube other than COVID disinformation? Still, for some freaking reason, it's just medical disinformation. That's true. We've never gotten a strike for any content, other than maybe somebody saw them.
Speaker 5:No the savages thing, the savages thing, I went off on the Native.
Speaker 4:Americans. I visited Arizona. The savages thing, when I went off, I went off on the native americans so I went to, I visited, I visited um arizona and I came back and I just went off on this rant with rob and I'm like I'm not impressed by the native americans.
Speaker 5:Like it's not like they're not off calling the amish smelly and then they stink.
Speaker 4:No, they were smelling a rendering plant whatever, the freaking amish like the real amish, not, not, not jews like the real amish. I went up to, I went to amish country.
Speaker 5:That's landcastle, but I looked it up on the map.
Speaker 4:You were right by a animal right, dude, it was everywhere around there which just smelled like dead bodies, like I'm telling you I.
Speaker 5:I worked next to a rendering plant. That smell had soaked into everything in like 10 miles around that man I never smelled anything like.
Speaker 4:It smelled like dead bodies?
Speaker 5:yeah, well, that's what it is decomposing, so.
Speaker 4:But I went to arizona also and I'm like I'm, like I'm and I mean this, I'm not impressed by native about like they want you to think they're these, these beautiful, uh, these beautiful nomadic tribes, and they the whole noble, savage sort of thing bro. They didn't build shit. They didn't build a single thing, nothing, not. They built teepees. There's nothing impressive about them. They're not like the aztecs, where they built these crazy pyramids and a civilization. They're nothing.
Speaker 5:They have that one group that that built, uh, you know, a few houses under the wall of a canyon and then just I don't even think those are native americans. Those were freaking aztecs that wandered off dude, you do know, the aztecs didn't build anything, right I know those are from before the hancock taught me that no those are from before. Graham Hancock taught me that Graham Hancock wasn't wrong about that. Those are pre-flood. At the very least they're pre-Aztec.
Speaker 4:They're pre-flood, dude. I'm telling you, those things are pre-flood. Those are the talk about the Nephilim. The Nephilim built those things. I'm fully convinced of that. You'll never convince me otherwise, so just lay off of it. But yeah, this whole idea of the noble Native Americans. They were just savages. They ran around in their freaking underwear with teepees. They did nothing. They had more buffalo around than they could count. They literally woke up in the morning, they shot a freaking buffalo and they did nothing with the rest of their day. They were unimpressive people. I don't care what anybody says. What are you?
Speaker 5:laughing at what was in the comments.
Speaker 4:I'm laughing at you. Oh, they run around in their underwear all day. They wake up at three in the afternoon, they shoot a buffalo and they're good like they don't do anything. Oh, we tell story by campfire. Oh the good wolf, you eat the bad. Oh, stop, shut up. You stupid culture. You did nothing. Oh, my gosh, people all right. So let's do the westhoff thing. The first, the clip I actually posted in there, you know tweet I've noticed you don't like the irish I don't like the chinese you don't like asians?
Speaker 5:no I really don't like the only look, you don't like cultures that fall apart as soon as you give them whiskey, that's that's a good point.
Speaker 4:No, the irish I don't dislike the, I'm half irish. I just like to tease them. The chinese I I just they're hard to work near, like it's just a very difficult thing to work somebody. So that freaking tweet was funny today you do know the guy was serious. Right, I know he was dead serious, but it was still a great reference. Like so the guy goes, you turn on ab and all you hear is racism. And it goes unchallenged and rob goes what are you talking about? The guy says I'm like he's like.
Speaker 4:He's like anytime you reference flushing or east of tribeca, and rob's like what does that even mean? Flushing is chinatown in queens and east of Tribeca is Chinatown in Manhattan.
Speaker 5:Here's the thing. As soon as he said that, I Googled it and I pull up Tribeca and I look east I'm like Chinatown, I'm like Anthony.
Speaker 4:Well, flushing is not Chinese anymore, though. Flushing is overwhelmingly South American immigrants that are running brothels on Roosevelt Ave that they shut down, and now they're starting back up.
Speaker 5:It's actually disgusting. Is that any different than Chinese massage?
Speaker 4:parlors they're not just Chinese, chinese massage parlors don't have hookers out on the street. That's true. Flushing is where Citi Field is Citi Field with a Mets play, and Roosevelt there runs right along there.
Speaker 5:And it's just prostitutes everywhere. You mean frushing.
Speaker 4:Frushing, frushing. I got to work on a good Chinese accent. Yeah, this is definitely the spicier side. I don't think you could do this on YouTube. If this is your first time in locals, just want to. Yes, I'm sorry. Yes, we apologize. We had a few people in the comments say that we are too sophomoric, our humor is too childish, like like they're not, and our show is not for everyone. No, but it also A lot of days, it's not for me.
Speaker 4:Well, the thing is, it's also why our audience skews millennial and Gen Z and male, heavily male, heavily male, millennial Gen Z. Which is why, when I went to Italy, like Patrick, coffin's audience is boomers, dude, like all boomers. So we have a group chat from the Italy thing. Adrian is the guy from Manchester that came with us. He was hilarious, but he's a diehard Father Maudsley fan. Everything he's saying in this chat is just anti-Zionist. Then somebody posted something about bishop baron and he like he kind of ripped into bishop baron a little bit and like the boomers love bishop baron, yeah, and they love, they love israel they love their jews too of their jews, and they love bishop baron and oh, you need to tell your matzah ball story, by the way, oh my gosh how did you put it?
Speaker 5:they chewed me out of my matzo balls they did, so I was.
Speaker 4:I was sick last week oh, oh no, oh no.
Speaker 5:Someone just said 51 year old, first time local subscriber. You're a man, you gotta be a man.
Speaker 4:There's no way you're a girl. It's been good. Listen, we have a very like. Yeah, so the, the boomers, are very sensitive, is all I'm saying. Like they, they love their bishop baron, and they love the catholicism series. They don't like, they don't pay attention to this, and I get that. I try not to rip on fellow Catholics as often as I can.
Speaker 4:Oh, so I was sick last week. My whole house was sick, so I ordered matzo ball soup from Zan's Bakery or Ben's Deli. It's like a famous deli in New York. They make the most amazing matzo ball soup, so I ordered it online. I ordered five soups, five matzo bowl soups with an extra matzo bowl in each soup. They sent me five matzo bowl soups and one extra matzo bowl, not one for every soup and I spent an hour on the phone fighting with these freaking. She's telling me I didn't pay for that. I'm like. I'm'm like get your calculator out. She's like what do you mean? I'm like it's it's ten dollars for the soup and two dollars for the extra matzo bowl, right? She's like yes, I said okay. How much was my bill? Sixty dollars. So how is it that I paid five suits for ten?
Speaker 5:dollars each divided by five, it I'm like dude she's like oh, I see what happened.
Speaker 4:We only saw the one. I'm like, yes, Can you give me a freaking refund? I don't even want your stupid matzah bowls at this point. They're going to be ice cold by the time they get here. Just want my $8 back and I'm not going to let you get away with stealing $8 from me. It took an hour to get this eight dollars out of this one would have been cheaper to just get my time back, but right, but it would have been cheaper for her too, so screw that yeah I'm not letting her get away with it.
Speaker 4:So, all right, you gypped them. Let's do the west hop clip, because this show's going on way too long. Can I talk to a human being please?
Speaker 5:dr bryant says now who sounds like the jew, anthony I lost my mind over eight dollars.
Speaker 4:If it was, if it was an italian restaurant, I would have let it slide here's the thing, though, as a jew, she probably like really respected you for that.
Speaker 5:No, I'm serious'm serious. It really is a Jewish thing.
Speaker 4:They respect the hustle. Yeah, they do Chase. Your age jackals down.
Speaker 5:This isn't even a racial like. This isn't a joke.
Speaker 3:They really do.
Speaker 4:Anthony Shapiro. They call him Anthony.
Speaker 5:Shapiro.
Speaker 4:You guys have a sick sense of humor. I can't believe Anthony. Don said Anthony chewed them down. There's no way somebody doesn't regret their subscription this is.
Speaker 5:This is definitely like a New York joke, though, you know, like a Jew and an italian got into a fight on the phone.
Speaker 4:Oh for sure, dude, I have a friend, my, my best friend, growing up was half jewish, half italian you know what people?
Speaker 5:there are people who found this local show so funny so far that they're actually subscribing right now no get out of here.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah why you put it up for free. I I let it play for about five, the first five minutes for free, and then I hit the timer and yep, someone just subscribed um, so my friend was half jewish, half italian and he was so cheap dude, and he's like, like, yeah, I'm good with my money like a Jew and I'll screw you out of it like a guinea. He was just so like See this gold chain here 100% fake. Oh, he was sick.
Speaker 5:Facts don't care about your feelings, anthony Rosenberg, let's do the.
Speaker 4:White Sox Club, because I want to get to this. Okay, okay, let's do the what's up club, because I want to. I want to get to this. Okay, you could. Yeah, it's three, you can skip the first minute. I don't think that was that relevant. Go right there. Yeah, first minute, let's go.
Speaker 3:Go from there that you would you would worship a crucified like teacher was just seen as silly because it's so humiliating to be crucified. Yeah, yeah, and and that like.
Speaker 5:Molly wants to know if she missed anything good so far.
Speaker 4:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 5:Molly, you have no idea. She earlier today she said she was, she was sad she was going gonna miss this live.
Speaker 4:sorry, molly you really did miss it. No, molly, at least go back and listen to the beginning of locals.
Speaker 3:It was a little wild okay, here we go like um a god would let himself go through this right like what?
Speaker 3:what do you? What are you talking about? In fact, the ancient world didn't really have a problem with supernatural events. There is an ancient writer who mocks Christianity, and he particularly mocks Christianity in saying that of course Jesus did miracles because Jesus had a childhood in Egypt, and he goes all those Egyptians are magicians anyways. So he just learned the magic when he was a child anyways. So he just learned the magic when he was a child. So he actually confirms, incidentally, two things that the narrative in the gospels, where it says that the holy family fled to Egypt during the reign of Herod, he corroborates that he actually thinks that happened and that Jesus did miracles. He just attributes the miracles to Jesus being a traveling magician anyways.
Speaker 6:And you know, anybody who lived in Egypt knows, knows some magic that is what's really fascinating that the mindset of the people that lived back then was that whatever was going on in egypt was so crazy that they had to be magicians yeah, yeah, but everybody believed in supernatural events, like.
Speaker 3:there's no such thing as like a secular work in the ancient world. Even plutarch, who's one of the most famous biographers in the ancient world he wrote 90 biographies, of which 60 still survive today. He was a priest of Apollo, so he's already assuming that the gods exist, that crazy things are going to happen in the world, and so they didn't have a problem with people doing miracles or crazy things happening.
Speaker 6:Well, that's also why it's so interesting trying to put your mind into the context of people that lived back then when you try to interpret what these stories were all about, because they did believe in things that weren't real. So, when they talk about this thing that we're supposed to believe is real, when you have all this evidence that they believe things that aren't real. So, when they talk about this thing that we're supposed to believe is real, when you have all this evidence that they believe things that aren't true, yeah, it's interesting, right, because, like you're, you're now saying, yeah, but this one really was true, right? Well, there's so many different things that they thought of and believe that weren't true yeah, so I hated that.
Speaker 5:He said yeah to all that because, to even bring it into context, like what they want to know, how I, how I, what I think of this guy's voice. All I'm going to say is, if kennedy hall had this canadian accent, kennedy hall wouldn't be the audible voice of every catholic book there, right?
Speaker 4:now let's just say that the guy is Canadian. I hate that he said yeah to all that, because even when he's talking about all right, so this guy was a priest of Apollo, it's like no, they didn't believe things that were untrue. There were supernatural things happening in the ancient world like they're the gods that they were worshiping, like really weird, mysterious things were happening around and that's why these cults formed around them. And for to bring it to joe, where joe couldn't grasp that, it's like well, look at the alien phenomenon going on today, like it's, it's a very similar thing like you. Just people are now looking to ufos and things like that. Like there are supernatural things that go on in the world that have no explanation. It's just the people of the ancient world.
Speaker 5:What percentage of people suddenly believing a man can become a woman in deciding to mutilate themselves for it? That is 100% not supernatural. It's preternatural.
Speaker 4:It's demonic. Also, you have, it's the things that were going on in the ancient world. Like for people to to to. They hadn't yet experienced the enlightenment and scientism, where they just see the world materially, like. That's why they saw things supernaturally back then. It's the people today that can't grasp the supernatural because they've just been in this materialist mindset for so fricking long that there it. There's long that there's just no compartment in their mind for it. So when they see these supernatural things now they're like aliens. It's like no, you idiot. Yeah, like all of a sudden now everything's about non-human intelligence. There's been non-human intelligences on the earth since the beginning of time.
Speaker 4:Luther was a priest of a non-human intelligence, exactly that's. But that's true, right, like he was a priest of a non-human intelligence. So let's jump to the other clip real quick. I just I sent you the the tweet of it oh, not that clip no, that's saving, that, that's in the bank no, that is the only. That is the only hush clip you sent me wait, I sent you a tweet just now, didn't you get? It?
Speaker 5:well, I just said between not okay, okay, yeah, yeah, I see that I was looking at the video here, we go.
Speaker 3:I really like the way that jordan peterson articulates it, but I think he misses the force for the trees. How so? In that he sees Jesus as an archetype, and I don't think actually even Jesus gives you the opportunity to see him as the archetype. Because I have this love-hate relationship with all of Peterson's stuff because he seems to get so much right where he walks up to the line but he doesn't want to cross over.
Speaker 6:And is the crossover, you think, connected to a life in academia? No, what do you think it?
Speaker 3:is, I wonder and I'd love to talk to him about this, like, how do you remedy this issue? That because he seems to think that the concept of Jesus as an example is more important than the actual flesh and blood, first century itinerant Jewish preacher who was crucified and rose from the dead physically, which is the claim of the gospels and the rest of the new Testament, that that's. That's an example for us to look on and live by. But I actually think that Jesus condemns moralism and, ultimately, what I see Peterson doing is looking at Jesus as a moral example. And if Jesus is nothing but a moral example, then you can save yourself and you don't actually need to save. Okay, pause it.
Speaker 5:He's 100% right with all of this.
Speaker 4:Okay, but what I think you're missing is that I listened to all of it.
Speaker 5:I'm missing nothing. No, you're missing the Jordan Peterson context. Because you don't like Jordan Peterson?
Speaker 4:because he that I listen to all of it. I'm missing nothing. And I know you're missing the jordan peterson context because you don't like jordan peterson, because he's a moralist jordan.
Speaker 4:Peterson might be a little bit of one, but no, that's not what I see peterson saying. Peterson is actually attacking the protestant faith alone thing and he's saying, like the way you actually believe, so like if you believe something, you live it out. So like if you actually like, I do see what he's saying there, but Peterson doesn't just. He's saying you're, you have to make it your way of life, like you have to live it out, because you can't just say I believe a thing. Like, say, saying a set of phrases does not make one a Christian. Saying I accept Jesus as my personal Lord of phrases does not make one a Christian. Saying I accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior does not make you a Christian.
Speaker 5:But to Peterson. Peterson has said that it's the living it out that he thinks is most important.
Speaker 4:Well, I guess this goes into faith and works right?
Speaker 5:No, no, no, but, but, but he I I see his belief doesn't matter. No, I don't think he says that I don't think he does say that.
Speaker 4:I think he's literally said that in an interview I think he has said that in the past, but more recent. His thing is just you, you can't say one thing and do another and then say that because you said the thing that's what you believe like. Belief is action, right. So, and this gets into, let's, let's play the recipe, because he gets into criticizing the pharisees and that's what really ticked me off. It wasn't even so much the jordan peterson stuff, because, yes, I agree with you, like you can't earn your way to salvation, like you're not gonna do good things and that's gonna make you a good person, obviously.
Speaker 3:But it's a combination of like the thing you believe, typical definition of an anglo-moralist yeah, maybe and so I think actually jesus would have critiqued that, because jesus was very against moralism and how does he?
Speaker 6:how do you? You define Jesus being against moralism Like? What do you mean by that exactly?
Speaker 3:Well, jesus looks at the religiosity of his day with like particular groups like the Pharisees and the Sadducees, who are these other like these other groups of Jews during his day. So we talked about the Essenes, who actually aren't mentioned in the Bible, but there are other groups like the Pharisees, who are like lay scholars, and the Sadducees, who are professional priest scholars, and he's constantly critiquing the fact that they have this hypocritical religiosity to them where they're doing Okay. So now the guy's just retarded.
Speaker 4:It's not about hypocrisy so much. That's what we were getting into before. What Jesus is criticizing in the Jews is this legalistic way around the law and it's the things like we were talking about with the Shabbat light. It's like, oh, I'm not allowed to touch the light switch, but I can touch this piece of plastic and it does the same exact thing as the light switch. I tricked God plastic and it does the same exact thing as the lights. Right, I tricked god, like in the talmud, there's this, there's this a scene and I just saw this today on um on uh elijah shaper's show.
Speaker 4:There's a scene in the talmud where there's a a group of jews who are having a beastly bestiality orgy, where it's like you know, know, it's all this disgusting stuff going on. And God comes down and he's like what are you guys doing? And a lawyer goes up to God and argues with God and he beats God in the argument through lawyering and God goes you guys got it All right, go ahead, you stuck to the law. And it's like that's what Jesus is critiquing in the Pharisees.
Speaker 5:The problem with this guy is he's equating religion with moralism, when it's when moralism is actually the lack of religion in moral choices. Moralism is saying it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you basically don't offend anyone's moral sensibilities.
Speaker 6:Right, it's like a good person.
Speaker 5:Right, it was basically the, the whole anglo wasp um right and wrong that everyone had to follow, whether or not they actually, you know, believed in religion. That that's what moralism is.
Speaker 4:Yeah, not, not what so and that's what I was saying like jesus doesn't actually criticize moralism because moralism doesn't exist in that time period what jesus is right, because moralism is secular and nothing was really secular right, there was nothing secular during this time, so it's yes, jesus would criticize moralism, but that's not what jesus is doing and that's what I took, not in the bible, no no, no.
Speaker 4:And what I took issue with was this guy equating moralism to what the pharisees were doing and that's even in modern context of moralism to it. The pharisees were not doing that. The pharisees were very religious but they were just legalistic slick talkers like that. Like the things they were criticizing jesus for healing someone on the Sabbath. It's like, oh, you did a thing on the Sabbath. It's like you're not getting that Sabbath is for man and not man for the Sabbath. Like you're missing what. Like you're missing the point of it. You're catching us up because, legalistically, we broke this law. No, no, no, we're keeping the heart of the law here. Like the point of the law here, like the point of the sabbath is something very specific and it's just. I hate how people read the new testament and what they see in the pharisees they equate to catholic sacraments, like they really do think. Is that like what jesus did was came to set us free from the law? These sacraments are the same thing as the? No?
Speaker 5:not at all nitro in the chat, just says he just got a ticket to the catholic men's conference nice, that's awesome.
Speaker 4:Um, yeah, it's it. It's a. It's a preposterous thing to equate anything that paul. When paul is talking about, I am like works will not save you. He is not talking about work, moral works. He is talking about works of the mosaic covenant.
Speaker 5:Well, specifically works of the law with. The term he uses is actually an essene term but it's not moral works.
Speaker 4:They're not no no no right, they're works of the law, works of the jewish mosaic. Law is like those things of the old covenant they do nothing to save you. That doesn't mean the eucharist does nothing to save you. It it does. Look, there probably is a. There's plenty of people who go through the sacraments who will go to hell. I mean, paul says if you do not recognize and understand what you're doing in the sacrament, you eat and drink condemnation on yourself. Right, if you do not recognize the body of the Lord. Like there's plenty of people who go through the motions of Catholicism who are going to go to hell. But that does not mean that the sacrament does not make one holy if they're living their life in accordance with what it's supposed to do. If they're living their life in accordance with what it's supposed to do. And in a way Jordan Peterson is right in that saying you believe a thing and acting completely contrary to the thing you say you believe, it's nonsense. The thing you believe should shape the way you live your life and the two of them go together hand in hand. It's not the way the Protestants say it, where it's like I do the good thing out of gratitude. That's ridiculous. No, like you don't do it out of gratitude. You do it because you want to glorify God. Like our works are God's glory. The saints are God's glory. It's not. It's not like the like the saints don't diminish God. The saints glorify God. They are God's glory. It's that they have such a twisted, warped way of seeing works that they think, no, your works are filthy rakes. No, they're not.
Speaker 4:When Paul says we are saved by grace through faith, he's saying your initial conversion. You were a person living in filth and sin. You did nothing to earn the grace of God where he enlightened your heart to know God is real. You did nothing to earn the grace of God where he enlightened your heart to know God is real. You did nothing to earn that. That was complete grace on God's part to do this for you when you did nothing to earn it. Now, once you receive that grace, what you do with it very much will affect your salvation.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Like very much will affect your salvation, and it's. The thing is like. Even I wrote that post yesterday about um saint paul, like what I was, what I was trying to get at. Obviously saint paul's not greater than saint joseph, nothing like that. What I'm saying is like I feel like catholics are hesitant to read the epistles because they think they're protestant because all they hear is protestants mentioning, quoting the epistles.
Speaker 4:It's like no, saint paul is catholic. He's a freaking catholic priest and if you read it in light of catholicism, you will see paul as a catholic priest and the things that he's saying when he's talking about works of the law and you're saved by grace, your faith, like he's not talking about protestantism. That's preposterous. So to me, like the epistles should kind of be the foundation of your, of your spiritual life, because they're the word of God and it's like that should be your foundation. You start with that. Then you go in to start reading the saints and you find ways to maybe you find a saint that has an aspect of Christ personality that you think you can emulate, you know. So it's like I'm not St Paul, I'm not, you know. I just think it's not just about saying, oh, he's a great saint because of his conversion, it's read what Paul is saying. Like Paul says some of the most amazing stuff, man, like my favorite book is always going to be Ephesians. I think Ephesians is the most Catholic epistle you can find. It's. It's just, it's Paul's whole ecclesiology and how he sees the church.
Speaker 4:Then, like you go into philippians where paul was talking about um, like god, uh, that christ lowers himself to the point of death on a pro like. He lowers himself, like he didn't consider himself to be equal with god a thing to be exploited. Right, like he was god. But he didn't consider himself to be equal with God a thing to be exploited. Right, like he was God, but he didn't think that was something to exploit. Like he could have literally snapped his fingers and killed every one of the Pharisees. Like he could have came down off the cross.
Speaker 4:He didn't think equality with God was something to exploit. No, he lowers himself to the point of death, even death on a cross. Like he's willing to even die as a slave. Because actually, when you're looking at the cross, what you're seeing is not God's wrath, what you're seeing is God's love, because he who has seen the Father has seen the Son. I do know that there's an aspect of God's wrath in that, but it's just how I see it. When I read Paul, I don't see Paul as Protestant in any way whatsoever.
Speaker 5:No, of course not One of the funniest things I saw on Twitter today.
Speaker 4:YouTube content. Thank you, what?
Speaker 5:Oh yeah, the YouTube content we can't be open there.
Speaker 4:Well, it's not just open, it's kind of I don't know. Something happens when we come over here, we're just like, all right, we don't have to perform anymore, let's just talk, right. And it's good when me and you just do shows alone once in a while, like I love Nick. I'm not saying anything about that, but it's good for me and you to. You just got to you. You gotta get a good conversation one-on-one every once in a while.
Speaker 5:I think you know you were uh ragging on people with mustaches. Yeah, you know what? Uh, um the the best comment I read. You know what you would look like if you had a mustache? That's like ridiculous you'd look like a coffee bean farmer in the foothills of columbia.
Speaker 4:Wait, I look like a coffee bean farmer in the foothills of.
Speaker 1:Columbia Wait, I'd look like a coffee bean farmer, you'd look like a South American.
Speaker 5:It is so true. Just picture you with a mustache. You would totally look like South American.
Speaker 4:I absolutely would. Well, first off, everybody knows why I wrote that tweet right it was Brad, it was Brad First off Brad. And why I wrote that tweet right it was Brad, it was Brad First off. Brad and Gordon the two of them Look, I think maybe it's millennials can't rock a mustache. It's like I think Gen Z pulls it off.
Speaker 5:You know why? That is Because we remember our boomer dads wearing them.
Speaker 4:That's it Like a boomer, like a Tom Selleck can pull it off. Obviously. It's like a boomer like a tom sellick can pull it off. Obviously. When I see a 41 year old man with a mustache, I'm like why did your wife let you do that? I think why did cameron?
Speaker 5:hold on hold on hold on you say, your favorite epistle is ephesians, and then you go and say how did your wife let you.
Speaker 4:You know what I mean. Not because you have to obey her, because your wife. Look, I'll tell you this. I'm sitting in the car. My wife will stare over at me and she'll go you need to trim your nose hair, can you not look at me? But it's like if your wife doesn't help you with that stuff, nobody will and you'll have nose hair. It's like I can't. I can't stand when she says it because I'm like, stop staring at me while I'm driving. Why are you looking at me? Go look at something else. But at the same time, like, your wife has a duty to keep making sure you don't look like a savage. We're animals it.
Speaker 5:It was up to me I would shave my mutual submission about no no, no, no, no, no, no. Anthony. Mutual submission Rosenberg, I thought is what we were going with tonight.
Speaker 4:It was sickos.
Speaker 5:Paul says yeah, you're going to have Father Schmitz on the show soon. Talk to my dad.
Speaker 4:Oh my gosh man, oh man, this show was fun.
Speaker 5:It was fun. I didn't expect to laugh this much tonight.
Speaker 4:it's there's been a lot of it. Oh man, this is a fun show. All right, we're gonna wrap it up though people have started ripping on anthony.
Speaker 4:Notice how we suddenly have to wrap it up. All right, anthony the colombian mexican, the colombian coffee brewer, it's gotta go. Let me read some of the college. Anthony had to have a colombian middle name. Now, um, ms casey says we're at the age where both spouses have a duty to make sure we keep on top of that. So yeah, absolutely like like I told my wife yesterday, I'm like you put five pounds on fatty.
Speaker 5:It's time to not say that well, guys, it looks like we will be having an audition for new host here soon after they find anthony's body in the back of a vehicle uh, she did put five pounds on though well, yeah, it was all the prosciutto and red wine.
Speaker 4:I told her I'm like I don't really care, like I put weight on two over the holidays, but lent this comment like I lose 30 pounds every lent, yeah, every lent. I give a I give a bread cheese uh I think last lent I had lost 41 pounds yeah, I lost 30 pounds. I lose 30 pounds every Lent, so I'm on the heavier side right now. But I know by the time I'm going to Greece in May and I'm like, oh, thank God it's after Easter, because I won't be a fat slob when I go.
Speaker 5:Oh my gosh. I notice how, lately, you've only been traveling to places where you fit in florida with all the italians, italy with all the italians, greece with all the proto-italians my, I haven't listen.
Speaker 4:I have not paid for a single vacation, like not one. My brother-in-law paid for my florida trip. I went to italy for free. I'm going to greece for free. The only trip I have to pay for is go to minnesota. It's the only trip I'm paying for is minnesota, which is why I think um, you know, we'll probably be having the baptism at michael matt's parish.
Speaker 5:That'll be cool. You know, we'll probably be having the baptism at Michael Matt's parish.
Speaker 4:That'll be cool, we'll go, we'll go, we'll go, we'll go attack Michael Matt. You know what it is. I went to the CIC. He wasn't like super friendly, no, but he had a lot going on too, you know.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and when he's at mass he's just a dad at.
Speaker 4:Mass. Yeah, I didn't feel like he wanted people coming up and saying hello. I didn't bother him. You know I had enough fun with my friends that were there. I hung out with the Catholic Unscripted crew most of the time, matt Gaspers. I had a meal with Tim Flanders. While I was there I met one of the people that watch our show. I hung out with him the whole weekend and Michael Hichborn Michael Hichborn, me and Michael Hichborn and his son. I had so much fun with Hichborn that weekend. His son is so cool. How old is his son? 22,. I think I had so much fun with hitchborn that weekend. His son is so cool. How old's his son? 22, I think 23. He goes to christendom college. Really smart kid. You can tell he's hitchborn son. Like yeah, super intellectual, you know.
Speaker 5:Like really nice kid paper zoomer wants to know what are our thoughts on seek. Nothing good.
Speaker 4:No, I don't know, man, like I think that people do. That fits some people. Man, like some people it fits you. Know I I don't think it fits us. No, I think I would fit in there. I think that's too much like the stuff I cringe at from my youth.
Speaker 4:But exactly, yeah some people seem to. Some people seem to like it. What am I gonna say? And nick would kill me for that because nick would be like that's your liturgical relativism, but I just don't want to knock catholic stuff, man, I don't know I mean if I had the ability, if I was the pope, I'd get rid of all of it, force everybody to go back to ancient chants and processions.
Speaker 5:But we're going back to the mass of Alexander VI.
Speaker 4:Yes, not even unironically, like 100% Seek and you shall find what.
Speaker 3:Protestantism.
Speaker 4:Terrible music. Seek, and you shall find Protestantism, catholicism. Oh man, it really is so Protestantant. Why am I saying that? I'm trying to be too nice? This is what I mean. It stinks like no, it stinks like they would be much better off because if they held the conference seek and they just made it traditional, they'd get the same turnout they would get the same it'd probably be a bigger turnout.
Speaker 4:It might even be bigger because you would get like more Catholics wanting to go check it out. Because the people that go to those, they're just conference hoppers, they love those things, they want to go meet there, they want to go meet Trent Horn.
Speaker 5:But I guarantee you why have sneak when they already have LA Rec or whatever it is?
Speaker 4:Like it's as bad as LA rec. La rec is a train wreck. I know it's not that bad it is Look, you're going to get all Orthodox homilies, things like that Orthodox talks at Sikh.
Speaker 5:You're just going to get that charismatic element, which I don't know how anybody deals with, and here's the thing, kind of what you said, like it's just never been for me, and I'm not even necessarily talking like the liturgical thing, which still it's not for me, it's, it's terrible, but like those people that are just always so happy and bubbly and in your face I just want to strangle them it's, it's that's ptsd.
Speaker 4:No, but I've always wanted to strangle them. You know what I mean. It is so PTSD, though, man, it's like even when I was doing that stuff, when I was a kid, my parents would make me go to that stuff. I did meet good friends. I met people that I liked. It was just the stuff was just so cringe. I was the same thing. Look, even this conference. We're doing like we're going to the conference, but I look forward to the after conference, like I'm not. When I went to the Catholic Identity Conference, I couldn't wait for the talks to be over. I don't care about this talk, let's go get a beer, come on, I like meeting people, I like hanging out with people and, like I'm, I'm very social. Like um, there was a couple of talks that I enjoyed, but I can't sit in the conference room all day listening to one talk after another. I don't know how people do that stuff.
Speaker 5:I mean we're going to have to listen to John Franklin Talk about how voting is a good thing, rob, we're still public. We're going to have to. I think if john were to see this he would know. I'm like 20 joking. We have to listen to rick talk about guns, which I love guns, but I've also heard rick talk about guns um, you're gonna hear me tell the same stories I've told on air.
Speaker 4:You're gonna hear rob. Oh gosh, that's the worst part of it it's you guys, it's not the talks man, the talks. We're gonna go, we're gonna get through those talks and then we're to have such a fun time after man.
Speaker 5:Here's the thing, guys Before the show or before the conference, I will write up an official men's conference drinking game set of rules for Anthony and me and in Frankman and Rick and Enoch everyone we know.
Speaker 4:I can't wait to get those guys hammered.
Speaker 5:So you will need to bring a flask, and when any of those things happen that I write down, you will have to take a shot we'll maybe even do a live stream from there, from the hotel.
Speaker 4:Like I'll bring my computer, I'll bring mine, yeah we'll do it we'll do it. We'll do a live stream from there. I mean, we can set it up with just mine, like because, like my mic, we could just set it up with one setup and just sit, like we did it at the Chicago conference, like I was able to put two, three people there, you know, yeah, so we'll figure something out. All right, let's get to bed, man, I gotta get some sleep. Okay, all right, guys. We will see you guys on Thursday with Kennedy.
Speaker 5:Yeah, that's right, kennedy Trying to make this as awkward as possible. I don't know.
Speaker 3:I'm sitting away from the song to kick in.
Speaker 5:Okay, see everyone you.
