New Year's Eve - 2025 Resolutions and Predictions PLUS James White Drama

Tonight's episode encapsulates a spirited New Year's Eve celebration mixing humor with deep theological discussions, tackling everything from the role of Mary to the implications of the Novus Ordo. Through candid reflections and personal anecdotes, we explore the implications of faith practices on families and challenge listeners to consider the nature of devotion in an evolving religious landscape. 

• Engaging in lively banter about absent co-hosts and previous shows 
• Discussing interactions with James White and the impact of social media on theological debates 
• Sharing personal faith experiences and the significance of different mass forms 
• Reflecting on the challenges and virtues of Marian devotion and Eucharistic understanding 
• Speculating on future developments in church practices leading into 2025

Chapters

• 0:08 James White, Mary, Pope Conspiracy Theories
• 13:08 Catholic Family and Latin Mass Experiences
• 26:16 Debating Catholicism in Modern Apologetics
• 41:37 Ryan, Matt, and Family Conversations
• 48:11 Late Night Catholic Discussions
• 1:00:46 Navigating Catholicism and Social Media
• 1:12:11 Mercy, Mary, and Conversion Stories
• 1:24:18 Navigating Catholic Traditions and Identities
• 1:32:40 Catholic Rituals and Sacred Images
• 1:42:10 Reverence and Controversy in Catholicism

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

Sancte, sancte, amare morti, decadastros. In taste, they're a-wearing.

Speaker 2: 0:48

Now we're Let you know. Let you know, that's you too very prescient because of james white, like it's so prescient because j bro, you wait everybody. Look, wait, wait, intoxicated. Okay, I'm gonna be honest with everyone. It's new year's eve and this is my fourth. This is my fourth, martini. This will be a very interactive show. Rob could not make it Because Rob is gay. I mean, no wait, rob had dinner tonight, that's what.

Speaker 2: 1:57

Rob had dinner plans with his wife tonight. He's not gay, he's kind of gay, but he had dinner plans with his wife tonight. And If this is your first time tuning into Avoiding Babylon, I'm just going to tell you, do not judge us by this stream, because Anthony's had a few. Holy crap. Rob's watching, oh no.

Speaker 3: 2:20

That's great.

Speaker 2: 2:22

I have to say Rob held the freaking fort down while I was gone, Like he held the freaking fort down while I was gone and me, and oh no. What is this?

Speaker 3: 2:40

Welcome, michael.

Speaker 2: 2:41

Yo brother man. Did Anthony eat Rob?

Speaker 3: 2:44

Loftin' out.

Speaker 2: 2:49

That is an Opie and Anthony viewer. I don't know who that is, but they watch Opie and Anthony, brother man. Anyway, rob held the frickin' fort down while I was gone and me and Nicole were actually talking the other day and she's like Nicole said to me, she's like Anthony, he, he did all the shows while you were gone. Plus he did those um meditations every morning, like like Rob did a lot while I was gone. So I told Rob uh, dude, if there's any shows you need to skip, like I got you Well, like I got you while you're, while you got family stuff to do, this, totally, totally acceptable that Rob is not here tonight. So it's just me and Nick tonight, guys.

Speaker 2: 3:35

But we're going to talk about James White Good old Jimmy, because apparently I triggered him and yeah, rob had to talk. That's interesting. Because apparently I triggered him and uh, yeah, rob had to talk. That's interesting. I heard. I heard a lot of feedback that everybody was like it was actually refreshing to hear Rob talk and get a lot of commentary. Apparently, I hog all the airtime.

Speaker 3: 3:58

I didn't know that was, I'll be honest, the first episode. I forget even who we did it with, but there was like a few seconds in there. I was like a few seconds in there. I was like, wow, it's quiet. This is awkward.

Speaker 2: 4:10

I don't know what to say. And then we picked up steam. We kind of like figured it out I, I think you guys take for granted.

Speaker 3: 4:15

Look, dude, there's a solid like 30 40 percent of the audience that only shows up because they want to watch anthony.

Speaker 2: 4:21

That's a thousand percent, I'm gonna I'm gonna, I had a few and I'm going to say this I know how to host a show Like. I know how to keep a show moving Like. I remember we had.

Speaker 2: 4:32

We had a couple of guests on where the audience was like Anthony, move this along, like they were getting bored, and I saw it in the comments. They're like Anthony, move this along, you know along, you know, you know how to get a, get control of a show. I forget who the guest was and I'm not going to throw any names under the bus, but, um, yeah, it's just uh, like there's a lot of shows out there that they come on and and and it gets like those awkward I I cringe at awkward silence. Oh, it's horrible, like when nobody knows what to say. You know, um, I had a few things I wanted to talk about tonight. I should have probably jotted notes down, because I don't remember any of them, thankfully it's all in the title it was.

Speaker 2: 5:13

It was interesting the past few days because, look, this is going to be a very twitter heavy episode, because I have been on a, on a rampage of just annoying Protestants the past couple of days and one of those things that I said was the thief on the cross was saved by Mary's intercession, yeah, yeah, because Mary was praying at the foot of his cross, which is totally preposterous, but it caught the attention of James White but it caught the attention of james white and, um, I'm.

Speaker 3: 5:52

It is like, though. True in a way, though, because it's like all grace has come, like through her hands, so you're not wrong. But uh, obviously you didn't know you were speaking with profound theological wisdom while you're swiping away on twitter you know, you know what it is.

Speaker 2: 6:04

Um, it sounded like one of those pious things you might hear in the glories of mary, exactly exactly like it sounded like one of those things you might hear in the glories of mary and like I just fired it out, you know. And james white actually said that he like. So, james, james white was, uh, addressing calvin. He, what's look, james white doesn't look like I'm a, I'm a nobody, you know. So he was more interested in calvin rob. So calvin robinson responded to my tweet and he said base the mary bill, yeah, yeah okay.

Speaker 2: 6:44

Okay, A lot of people say things about Calvin Robinson, but Calvin Robinson is very close to Rome. I honestly think that if you had a good Pope in that, he would be Roman Catholic. I think the only thing preventing him is that he's got a ministry that he thinks he has and he wants to continue to provide that ministry. He's a priest and he wants to continue to minister to his people and if he actually came into Rome, they'd shut him down immediately.

Speaker 3: 7:17

I wonder if I was to try to pop over there and be like, hey, have you ever heard of this thing called the SSPX? Maybe he'd take a look in there.

Speaker 2: 7:26

It might be a good conversation to have with him, because I do think that's what's holding him back and it's an interesting thing. So he replied based in Maryfield, and then James White, because Calvin is speaking. Father Calvin, because I'll call him.

Speaker 2: 7:42

Father Calvin, because his orders are valid and I know people get annoyed with that, but he has valid orders. He is a priest and he is speaking at a conference that is pretty much all Calvinists there, but it's called Trash World or something like that what it's called Defeating Trash World, something like that. Anyway, called Defeating Trash World, something like that. Father Calvin Robinson is speaking at that and James White is trying to get the momentum to get him kicked off that speaking gig All because of his response to my tweet. Happy New Year's brothers. You bring joy to many. Use this to buy a cradle of indulgence for me. Also crazy question Alex Jones claims that the last real pope was JP too.

Speaker 3: 8:37

I didn't know. He had an opinion on that.

Speaker 2: 8:41

I posted one of my predictions today. One of my predictions is Francis will abdicate in 2025, and he will abdicate only the Munis and not the Ministerium, and that's going to cause mayhem between the Bene? Plenis and the Francesco Plenis. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3: 9:00

How funny would that be. It would be so funny. How funny would that be if the Francis, the francis fans and the and the benedict fans were just like at war because they didn't think francis properly abdicated the throne would be hilarious because it'd be a bunch of like fox news watching boomers against like the jimmy martins of the world who are like no, no, we hate any other pope but francis. It would be. That'd be glorious, apparently.

Speaker 2: 9:25

Last yes, like no, because there are all right. So if jp2 was the last, but, like, like alex jones says, jp2 is the last pope, right, there are people who think john 23rd was the last. But, like, you're going to get people, you're going to get people who ascribe to any conspiracy theory. It's just what happens, right? Yeah, so if francis did advocate, you would get people who think he didn't advocate properly and whoever comes in and the next guy, like francis is the last valid pope, the last legitimate pope. All right, we got 331. I'm going to now tell everybody please like and subscribe. Like.

Speaker 4: 10:09

I should have said it at the beginning of the show.

Speaker 2: 10:10

I'm saying it now. Please like and subscribe. This is not a typical show. Anthony's a little tipsy.

Speaker 3: 10:17

Which is probably good because we'll get your honest opinions. This would be great.

Speaker 2: 10:21

You guys got truth serum in me, but it's New year's, man, it's new year's eve, and I figured this would be a very interactive show with the audience. So, uh, I just want to say my wife and I just got home from the hospital, we brought home our eighth child. Please say a small prayer for us. No name, very cool, god bless, man, that is a beautiful, beautiful life you are having. Uh, yeah, your wealth is in your children. Man, that is amazing. Molly, molly's feeling. Molly, you must be a little tipsy tonight too. That's the first time I ever saw that, um, what is this?

Speaker 3: 11:01

so tell us, what is this conference that, like the james wands, calvin kicked off of because that's I mean, that's a weird name like like no trash world, like what kind of branding. It's like uh surviving in trash world okay, and so what we'll do is we'll go through, we're gonna go through.

Speaker 2: 11:17

Look, james white did a whole show on me and calvin robinson. I mean it must be really we have clips so we have clips.

Speaker 2: 11:24

What we're going to do is play those clips. Me and Nick are just shooting the breeze a little bit before you. You guys will hear those clips, do not worry, we're just letting the audience build a little bit. It's New Year's Eve. We just want as many people in here hanging out as Anthony drinks his fourth martini, so that we can have as much fun as we can. Dude, I should have wrote notes, like I had a few things Right. Respond. Come and say hello to everybody.

Speaker 2: 11:54

No, get that. My wife's there, nicole, come here please, nicole.

Speaker 3: 11:59

How to defeat trash. Well, aaron, you would be the expert, being the expert, uh, protesting minister wait, it's not a rock and fuel, it's a chocolate martini don.

Speaker 2: 12:11

It's not much better oh my gosh all right, I want to be a bad person and have a smoke break with you and adrian right now. All right, so I know what he's. He's trying to get me to tell everybody how much I love Bobby. Like my friend, bobby is the best and I'm not going to. I'm not that drunk at Bobby, just telling you. I invited my friend Patrick over tonight who came to Italy with me. Bobby came to Italy with me.

Speaker 2: 12:39

My friend Patrick, I told look, I'm doing a show with my friend Nick tonight and we're going to be on to like nine, like 9, 30, 10. Come over around then and patrick's gonna come and ring in the new year with me and my wife, because we're home alone tonight and my wife's mad at me. Oh, all the kids are on the show. Yeah, they're all. When your kids get older, it's kind of like like, yeah, we don't want to hang out with you guys anymore. So they went out. No, not patrick coffin. Patrick coffin lives, lives in California. My friend Patrick, who lives on Long Island oh, that's what I wanted to talk about. I go to mass on Sunday. So I look, I took my in-laws to mass on Sunday. My in-laws are.

Speaker 2: 13:14

Lutheran, okay, married a Lutheran woman, and my father-in-law he's like he's an awesome guy, but he married a Lutheran woman and he stopped going to mass and he started going to a Lutheran service his whole life. When me and my wife got married, um, it was like a very big deal that I was like, no, we're getting married in the Catholic church. Like this was a major, a major issue with my in-laws. Uh, because my father-in-law was like, no, you're supposed to just do what the wife does. And I'm like, no, not in my world. No, the wife does what the husband does in my world, you know. So, um, I think that was like that whole generation. They all thought like it was up to the women to raise the kids in whatever tradition you know. So my in-laws they're beautiful people, man, I really do adore my in-laws and they've seen me and my wife talking about the latin mass constantly and all these things.

Speaker 2: 14:26

So sunday we, me and my wife, were taking my kids to go to holy innocence and then we were going to go into the city and take our kids to this weird freaking. My wife picked it, I don't know, it was this weird art show that we went to. It was very bizarre, like if, if you were a stoner, you would have loved this thing. Bizarre, um. So my in-laws were like, oh, can we come with you? I was like, yeah, of course you guys can come with us, you know, but the it's like we're going to latin mass at the in the morning before we, before we go to the art show, and we went toence, which has a beautiful high mass.

Speaker 2: 15:05

Now my father-in-law, who's a cradle Catholic, and my mother-in-law, who's a cradle Lutheran, when we got out, I was asking them like, oh, what did you guys think? And my mother-in-law, who's Lutheran, thought it was like. She was like this was beautiful, I loved it. My father-in-law was like, yeah, I don't know, I didn't understand anything that was going on. It was very weird that, like, the cradle Catholic didn't get it, and my Lutheran mother-in-law found it beautiful.

Speaker 3: 15:33

It honestly makes sense because I mean, like the cradle Catholics nowadays are more Protestant than the Protestants. So, like, like, like, when I showed up, I like this is awesome, like this is like the catholicism you think about, and then, but you're all right so, nick, you're a thinker and you were reading about this, all right, so this is an interesting question.

Speaker 2: 15:52

So my father-in-law, my father-in-law made his communion in 1965 okay, so that was part of the conversation, and I'm like I'm like dad, like I call my mother and father in law mom and dad Like I've not. Ok. So I've known my in-laws since I'm 13 years old. Like they're I love them, like they're my own parents, like I adore them. And I'm like dad, did you, do you remember making your communion in the old right? Like this would have been the right you made your communion. And he didn't remember it at all. Wow, which is interesting, I guess it's seven years old. Like that's kind of that's a little too old, right? So then, listen to this. So we walk out of mass right and like five people come up to me. Like five people go up to me. They're like, can I get a picture with you? My in-laws think I'm in a cult. They think I'm running a cult. So, um, there was visiting fssp seminarians that are traveling around the country and, uh, one of them is from australia, nick, and watches our show.

Speaker 2: 17:06

Hey, let's go and the guy's like six foot six. And this is the second time I'm taking a picture with somebody who's six foot six, because my friend jason from italy is six foot six and everybody thinks I'm five foot two because I keep taking pictures with these giants. Um, and so, peter from the fssp seminary, you were awesome to meet, I'm very grateful. Um, then there was an older woman named I. I don't know if her name is diane or diana. She watches our show and I introduce her to my wife and I'm like. I'm like, oh, this is my wife n Nicole, and she goes oh, you're nothing like I expected.

Speaker 3: 17:48

And your wife looks at you. What is that supposed to mean? Literally, my wife goes.

Speaker 2: 17:53

Wait, what do you mean? She goes. No, I thought you'd be more like a Brooklyn Italian type. So this woman thought I'd be married to Marissa Tomei.

Speaker 2: 18:01

It's like from my Cousin, vinny. I mean honestly, it's fair. It's fair, it is, I guess. So it was. Just. It was really funny because my in-laws know that I do the show, because they know me and nicole just went to italy. So like that's kind of I kind of had to break it to them that I do a podcast, because me and nicole were to Italy and they're like what do you?

Speaker 2: 18:24

mean you're going to Italy like well, you know it's, you know we're doing this thing and whatever. So when we came out of church they were just like wait, why are these people want to take pictures with my son-in-law?

Speaker 3: 18:35

they thought it was really bizarre, you know.

Speaker 2: 18:38

I've not done a picture, one.

Speaker 3: 18:40

Yet I don't know how I'd feel about that.

Speaker 2: 18:42

Honestly, hey are they playing the drinking games. You guys will be drinking a lot if you're playing the drinking game tonight. Um, so it was so. Then I, uh, we're in the car and we're driving down to the r show. So then we went. Um, it was the first time I went to ground zero. I never, dude, I've lived in new york my whole life, all right. So the hitchhiker guy we were gonna do last night, he's in california right now. We're gonna talk to him. Like he's really dude.

Speaker 2: 19:12

I, I read all his tweets. I'm very interested in this guy. Like, he has a very interesting story. He's part of the catholic lamb movement, all this stuff. We're gonna get him on. Just be patient with me. His scheduling is not easy to link up with.

Speaker 2: 19:24

But, um, so we're driving down to the um, to the art show, and then we stopped and had lunch and while we're having lunch, my father-in-law was like so, like, does that mean like, your show's growing? Because, like, people just recognized you on the street. Like I'm like. No, they didn't recognize me on the. I'm like, listen, if I like, if I go to a novice ordo, nobody recognized. No, exactly like. But if I go to a latin mass, I don't care where it is in the country. If I go to a latin mass anywhere in the country, these are catholics that are paying attention to their faith. They're trying to, and at least one or two people will recognize me at a latin mass. Exactly like that's. That's just how it's going to be right. So it's.

Speaker 2: 20:10

We have a very niche, um audience like it. It is very niche, but when you go to a latin mass, that's where you're going to find that niche. Like those are the people that are watching our show. So exactly, it's pretty cool, though. Like I, I love meeting people. Like I literally get I. So if I didn't have, if I didn't have to go to lunch and I didn't have to do that, like I would have just asked those people that came up to me like let's go do something. Like I love when people come up to me and tell me they enjoy the show it's, it's. It's a it's a cool thing because I know I'm meeting fellow catholics who are paying attention to what's going on and they're doing their best to be catholic, you know.

Speaker 3: 20:49

Yeah they're not just like avatars with a name, right mpc, writing text, exactly exactly, and that's just what helps. So much I have the same thing. I'll just show like I went to um. I was the godfather of a friend of mine recently who got baptized, and we went to the society chapel in a hotel and while we were there, like after mass, five or six people immediately is like we're waiting the back, waiting for the priest to get forward. They just like come on. They're like, oh, you're from avoiding babylon, we love your show so do you get recognized more from our show, or?

Speaker 3: 21:18

your own. I'd say it's 50 50 honestly. Yeah, it's 50 50. It kind of depends, but mostly I would say on any given date. It's probably this one of the okay.

Speaker 2: 21:28

So so, mike, okay, so ab meetup, we're doing this so oh jeff, all right. So for anybody that doesn't know uh, jeff is a seminarian. I won't say where or anything but Jeff is a seminarian and we need, we need more men to do what Jeff is doing and donate to our show right now.

Speaker 2: 21:53

Yes, we need more people to donate to our show. But Jeff is a seminarian, like God is still calling men to the priesthood, but okay, so AB, mita it um. But okay, so ab meetup. So the italy trip kind of put a few things in perspective for me, like, um, half the people that went to italy were from this show. So if, if, 11 or 12 people from this show were willing to travel to italy, I'm thinking we'll get a handful that are willing to travel to Italy. I'm thinking we'll get a handful that are willing to travel local in the U S? Um, so what we're, what we're going to have to do, is Rob and I have a plan Uh, we're thinking right after Easter we're going to do something like we're going to have to just open up to locals first and see how many people we get on locals.

Speaker 2: 22:45

We're going to do something in spring, right after Easter, if you guys are interested. We're going to have to do just men, like ladies. I'm very sorry but there's no way my wife will be okay with women coming on something that she's not coming to. But for the gentlemen who want to do a meetup right after easter, uh, shoot rob an email at rob at avoiding babylon. I don't know what his actual email is actually. Let me see. Let me give you his correct email. I should have it here. Let me give you his correct email uh rob at avoiding babyloncom.

Speaker 2: 23:20

yeah, so it's rob avoiding babylon, if you would be interested, right after Easter I'm going to give you guys a ballpark figure. If you're willing to throw 500 at coming and doing a meetup, if we could get 10 guys to do 500 apiece, that 500 will cover your food, it will cover your room, your board, all you'd have to do is travel to us. But if you could throw 500 at it and you're interested in doing a men's meetup with the Avoiding Babylon crew, like we'll fly Nick out, we'll make sure Nick comes. It'll be me, rob and Nick and we will do at least a four-day weekend, three or four-day weekend, where it's all of us just getting together. We will be smoking cigars at a fire, we'll have a priest there probably be Father Nix, I'm guessing and we'll have daily mass.

Speaker 2: 24:10

But if you guys are interested in that. Shoot Rob an email at rob at avoiding Babylon. We want to do something. If I could get 11 people to fly to Europe, I would hope that we could get 10 or 12 people to do it in the States. So, yeah, so that's that all right. So now let's get to um dr white, let's get to conference, right, so let me see a dude. Rob's not here. I hate when rob's not here, but let me see, if I can, what happens when you're a homosexual? Yeah, rob, why'd you have to?

Speaker 3: 24:44

be gay.

Speaker 2: 24:44

That's why did you become a homosexual and ditch us um, let me see, okay, so let me get this loaded. Give me a second, guys, be patient with me. So true, so true. Just be patient with me. I'm not, as I'm not as technologically proficient as rob okay, let's see hey, that's it.

Speaker 3: 25:08

That's good encouragement right there. At least you're not playing videos to your phone anymore, that is dude, I'm getting better, I am getting better, he is getting better.

Speaker 2: 25:17

Okay, so let's see, we'll share that that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 3: 25:22

if we do do a meetup, just all of you guys come to saint mary's kansas and you guys can to St Mary's Kansas and you guys can all visit me.

Speaker 2: 25:27

Well, we're thinking like a few things could happen, like we're thinking, maybe the Boundary Waters out by Rob. But look, the thing is with where I want to take everybody, like we have a really good spot, nick, like it's a good spot, like I'll, everybody will have their own bathroom, everybody will have their own shower, everybody will have, and it'll just be we'll have quads to play on, like things like that. Like that's why I'm thinking it's going to be a really fun time, but it's got to be a very tight-knit group and it can't be over 12 guys. And I'm pretty sure we could get 12 guys together, because I already have three that are going to come. So it's really just nine guys we got to get. But so you know, that's, that's what I'm thinking. So, all right, let's, let's see what we got here. All right.

Speaker 3: 26:14

I'm surprised. I'm surprised. He's even wearing a cross. That's kind of big for a Calvinist.

Speaker 2: 26:20

No, no, no, he's wearing a pectoral cross. He's wearing a pectoral cross. He's Bishop White. No, he's the Protestant Pope Golly bro the Protestant Pope did a video about me. We got to really think about how big the deal is. Wait, can you hear this? Let's see here. Wait, what did I do?

Speaker 1: 26:43

You have to play it Now. He's on that that. So I start looking into his tweets and things. And on the 27th so three days ago now there's a young guy, a young young guy. It's at catholic izm1 anthony is his name, and what this guy does is he posts tweets that are real short, extremely controversial and are just simply meant to get engagement. I guess that's, uh, I guess that's how you make money on twitter now. All right, Wait real quick.

Speaker 2: 27:24

He's kind of right.

Speaker 3: 27:28

He has not said anything that has been false to this point.

Speaker 2: 27:32

Like Dr White, like I'm not. I'm going to be honest, like that's kind of what I do, but I will. I will say this no, it's, it's Todd. You get to come for free. So shut up, todd. Are you kidding me? Todd, I'm not charging you. Todd, are you sick? The reason I got to charge $500 is because I'm letting you, my friend Bobby, and Patrick and Fawaz and all these guys come for free, so everybody else got to pay. You know what, todd? Now you got to pay $500. Anyway, so he's not wrong what I do on Twitter, but it's not for the money. That's where he is wrong. I post short things to get engagement, to rile people up. It's not for the money, it's because I find it funny.

Speaker 3: 28:24

You're not that smart, you're just sick. It's because I find it funny. As we said before the show, you're not that smart, you're just sick. That's what it is.

Speaker 2: 28:29

Look, todd says you're subsidizing my opulent lifestyle. Real James is old and full of mold. Only boomers like him. I will say that I have been watching James White since I'm in my 20s. I have legit been watching James White debate Catholics. So okay, so preamble, I have to say Calvin Robinson is coming on January 14th. I booked Calvin Robinson. He's coming on January 14th.

Speaker 2: 29:01

I'm trying to get James White to come on January 14th. I'm trying to get James White to come on, because what I think would be interesting to talk to James White about is I'm not going to debate James White. Leave that to voice of reason. Let voice of reason and those guys debate James White. Let Voice of Reason and those guys debate James White. What I want to talk to James White about is how much the landscape of apologetics has changed since he's been doing this, because he's been doing this since the 90s, right For forever. Yeah, something drastic changed in 2013. Changed in 2013 where, like the. So the reason I won't debate james white is because I have a very hard time debating catholicism under francis yeah, no, he mentions this in like uh, some video.

Speaker 3: 29:59

Like like all the catholic apologists, for the most part, have dried up and they don't debate him, and it's understandable, because pope francis is the great stumbling block to anyone who's actually serious about the faith, which is a sad thing. I I hate to even say it, so you're right, like going into that, it would be okay. I am debating for a system that right now I believe to be true, but its head right now is sick and so it's weird because it's like it's like you turn into the White House press secretary.

Speaker 2: 30:32

That's how it feels, yeah you're right, and, but there's something man, it's Nick. I'm debating all day like that's. That's what I'm doing. I'm debating all day, but I'm debating for Catholicism. The Catholicism I believe is not the Catholicism presented by the hierarchy.

Speaker 3: 30:57

No, it's not. People will get mad at me. They'll probably be pissed when I say this, I say this but, like I've been saying, for days I've been talking with uh ybar, I've been putting this all online and stuff I'm saying, like what we see now that has come out of, let's just say, the 60s, all the way up until now, the great gargantuan of what people call the church is genuinely not the catholic church it can't be wait.

Speaker 2: 31:19

I have to address this. I am not crypto orthodox. I will never, ever, ever. I promise you guys. I look because I know I say nice things about the east I promise you I will never go east you have to admit our lady was conceived in original sin. It'll never happen, but not even that. I'll never even go byzantine catholic. Like I got a friend who's byzantine catholic and I'm like like stop pretending you got some deep eastern mysticism. Stop your bullshit with your, with your fake left. Like stop it stop it knock it off.

Speaker 2: 32:01

I don't like it. You're a freaking westerner like be western, like I don't like it. You're a freaking Westerner, be Western. I don't like it. And I love this guy.

Speaker 3: 32:08

He's probably in the chat right now. Was he born Byzantine no.

Speaker 2: 32:14

He was born in the Novus Ordo anyway. Because we're all trying to escape. We're all trying to escape the Novus.

Speaker 3: 32:20

Ordo Nick, Because the Novus Ordo is not Catholic. Alright settle down. Stop saying such, the Novus Ordo Nick.

Speaker 2: 32:26

Because the Novus Ordo is not Catholic. Settle down, stop saying such drastic stuff, nick.

Speaker 3: 32:30

No, it's true, there's literally no way. There's literally just no way that it's Catholic. That's just the problem. I mean, I really wish it was just so we could all chill out, but it's just not. This is me without alcohol. That's the funny thing.

Speaker 2: 32:46

Wait, why don't you have a drink? It's New Year's Eve. Can you go get like a sip of bourbon?

Speaker 3: 32:49

I could actually, but the problem is that I'm kind of a weakling. I don't really like straight-up bourbon by itself, so I need to find something to put it in.

Speaker 2: 32:56

So look, dude, I'm a freaking guinea.

Speaker 3: 33:02

like for me to go east, like I would feel like I betrayed my ancestors it's just like I don't care if people go to visit and like appreciate it, but to just straight up be like yeah, I'm converting here and the reason primarily is because I don't like the new mask shut up, honey badger.

Speaker 2: 33:25

Nick, listen to me. Look, I just went to rome. Like I cannot tell you how much I felt like I was embracing my, my, like my heritage, when I went to rome, I can only imagine bro nick, I felt like I was like oh my, I felt home in Italy.

Speaker 3: 33:46

No, it makes it, it makes perfect sense. Like I mean, this is nowhere near comparison, but like every time I go to a traditional monastery or to St Mary's, kansas, where, like, the culture is actually Catholic, you feel Catholic and it's, it's amazing, get out of here. Orthodox ismatic amazing.

Speaker 2: 34:07

Get out of here orthodoxismatic. The uh, that's the philly oakway right now. Okay, so look, here's what I'll say about the new myths. Like I understand the people that only have access to it, I don't like I, I, I only will accept it out of ignorance, truly no.

Speaker 3: 34:17

You're, if you're in ignorance. I totally understand and I'm not. I'm not like a hardliner no seriously there is literally no freaking way that that bug, nini, creation is awesome.

Speaker 2: 34:32

Nick, you gotta shut up. You are not embracing the council and you need to be put in your place that, like that, that mess, that mess, that mess. I'm surprised he didn't come back from Italy in a Kente clothes. That was cheeky.

Speaker 3: 34:53

That would have been so funny if you just came back on the stream with that. You guys are sick. You're all sick.

Speaker 3: 35:02

Bro, I'm not your dad, I ain't going to pay for your gas. Go pay for your't gonna pay for your gas. Go pay for your own gas. Pay for your own gas. Hey, we got it right. We got it. We got him in the chat. Thanks for showing up. Um, yeah, as I was saying this freak, he's the one who started this whole issue the, uh, the the thing is I nick you're I this? What you are such a hardliner.

Speaker 2: 35:30

I'm a hardliner because I've read what these guys have.

Speaker 3: 35:34

It's so clear. It's so clear like people can get red pilled on, like the jq, they can get red pilled on the government. They can get rid of whatever they want. But it's when we talk about this, catholics freak out and I'm like, but you also don't have like a second grade catechism knowledge, but then you're calling me like the extremist. The reality is, these, these freaks imposed a neo-prosthetic, neo-modernist no, I don't even disagree with you.

Speaker 2: 36:02

Look, okay. So I saw a clip of Matt Fradd today.

Speaker 2: 36:08

He put like a clip of him and Jonathan Bejot out, and one of the things he said was he goes, he goes. There's all these Protestant converts come in in the 90s and you know, I'm going to need to talk with one of them soon because, like, what kind of baggage did you bring in? And I'm like, yes, look, this is the debate that I have. Look, I'm a cradle. But when I see, look, you guys had Mike Pantile on while I was gone, right, oh my God, bobby.

Speaker 3: 36:41

Why would you do this, Bobby? Thanks, man.

Speaker 2: 36:44

No, because Bobby's the fake westerner, I mean the fake easterner. This is why he's doing this. So I grew up nova sordo that's what I was given as an inheritance. The Byzantine church kept in communion with rome. Nick, how can you say the nova sordo isn't legit and then scoff that I went to the only valid catholic option? Shut up bobby, because I can fraud like that's what nick. I spent two weeks with this guy, watching him with this chotky, praying the jesus prayer, praying the backwards crucifix. I wanted to kill him like bobby.

Speaker 3: 37:21

Where are you from? What state are you from? Let?

Speaker 2: 37:24

me just are you from? Let me just tell you something. I literally begged him to send me a chocky. A chocky is the. It's not a rosary, it's basically a prayer bead, rope where you say the Jesus prayer on. And I actually find the Jesus prayer amazing. Like even as a Westerner, I love the Jesus prayer. Bobby's in Virginia. Bobby's in Virginia. He's in Virginia.

Speaker 3: 37:48

You're a fellow southerner, he's in.

Speaker 2: 37:49

Virginia. He grew up in the Novus Ordo, but he makes the side of the cross backwards. I wanted to punch him in his stupid face when we went to Assisi. We went to Assisi and he's making the cross. I wanted to kill him.

Speaker 3: 38:02

I'm all about Latin rights, supremacy, supremacy. So I, I, totally, I totally agree with you I actually am pretty ecumenical compared to this lunatic.

Speaker 2: 38:10

I'm on screen with.

Speaker 3: 38:12

I'm just catholic, he's ecumenical, so so all right.

Speaker 2: 38:15

So matt says these protestants, they came in in the 90s and it was kind of exciting and but like, what kind of baggage did you bring in? Like you think our liturgy is beautiful, but it's like you had no liturgy. Dude, I, oh man, I wanted to talk to Matt. So the thing is Matt stopped responding to me, like I used to have a friendship with Matt and he would respond to me. Matt cut me off, like I must've said I don't know what I said, I don't know what I did, I don't know what I did, I don't know. Maybe, maybe the stuff he did with Trent, it's probably the Trent stuff.

Speaker 3: 38:50

right that, or you never. You never know, he might just be busy, you never know.

Speaker 2: 38:54

Nah, he's mad at me. I can tell Like he won't like, like I. I want to, I want to. I want to be friends with these guys. I think they're of goodwill. I want to be friends with anybody. That's of goodwill. That's my position. Nick, I know you want to excommunicate anybody. Anthony actually got mad at me and mad and told me to do it the right way.

Speaker 3: 39:19

Dude, honestly that was the most based Anthony moment ever Correcting you.

Speaker 2: 39:24

I wanted to smack him Like dude, stop your backwards side of the. I can't even fathom making the left first Like it just drove me nuts. I hope everybody knows Like I literally love Bobby. But I was baptized three weeks ago, byzantine from Pratt. It was all foreign to me. I don't know what I do now, but I'm staying where I am now. Nova sort of killed the faith of my family. I'm the only Catholic since my grandma, okay.

Speaker 3: 39:56

So this is I'm going to. I'm going to similar boat man, except the Byzantine part, all right.

Speaker 2: 40:01

So this is something I uh uh. There's no way, fred is just busy I was trying to make him feel better.

Speaker 3: 40:10

Bro, I was trying to make him feel better. I always try to get some people the benefit of the doubt. You just never know.

Speaker 2: 40:16

You never know, no it's not that don is. Don is calling me a narcissist. It it has to be about me. You guys not pick up on the subtlety of Don. Don is saying Snow White Friday is just busy. It has to be about Anthony. That's what Don is doing, but the okay. So here's something I have to say. Dude, it's very difficult if you have a family and you're trying to raise your kids in the faith. And I just know from my own experience that my parents brought me to the Novus Ordo and I lost my faith, Like I literally lost my faith, and my parents weren't just oh, let's take you to the Novus Ordo. My parents sent me to like the life team stuff. They were like you got to like the the life team stuff. Yeah, like, ah, you gotta, you gotta do the retreat. Like I'm at the retreat and like everybody's crying around me because they got the holy spirit. I'm like god, do you hate me? Like, why does?

Speaker 2: 41:17

everybody get the holy spirit, but they, like I, don't get it why is literally literally nick? I don't know if they were faking it, like I couldn't tell if they were off a few years ago.

Speaker 3: 41:28

He's so drunk dude everyone send some money over so we can get this guy some more.

Speaker 2: 41:33

No, listen, I want to see this happen live. When frad came on like he wanted to hang with us and he wanted to like talk with us, like I, I dude, I think, I think I think matt wants to be cool with us, but I'll shoot him a message and he doesn't respond anymore. And I don't like that. Like I'm not gonna beg you for your friendship, like I don't really like if you're gonna blow me off, look, I will beg in the beginning because I'm a nobody, but like once we have an interaction, if you blow me off after that, like after you've talked to me, I'm a somebody, and so it's just like once we've had an interaction, like like now.

Speaker 2: 42:13

Like like you're not special, like anybody Nobody's special, like I'm not special, like nobody's special. So if we've had an interaction and then you stop talking to me'm, just like I'm not gonna like beg you to come on my show, like dude. I reached out to brian holdsworth uh, I shot him a dm the other day and I was like, hey, brian, like like I dude, I genuinely love brian holdsworth yeah, he's awesome. Like I genuinely love that guy. Like I look my. My perspective on all this stuff is I don't know. And, nick, I know, you think you know everything, but like you don't know, like none of us, I don't know everything.

Speaker 2: 42:57

No but you think you do. But the thing is like a guy like Brian Holdsworth is like he's a good dude and he's doing his best to bring his family up Catholic and it's a really confusing time. So if you don't have an exact perspective that I have, I'm not going to hold that against somebody. And I reached out to Brian Holdsworth and he was like hey, anthony, just shoot me an email, let's set up a date. Brian Holdsworth was so freaking cool about it. Like I shot him a dm on twitter. He goes hey, this is my email, shoot me a date, let's, let's set something up right. Um, like I, I wanna I, I still want to think matt is that guy. Um, but also like matt is on a freaking level where he's got Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Peugeot coming on. So I don't know if it's that he's just like an arrogant douche.

Speaker 3: 43:53

And also I don't know, in all seriousness, like the way I genuinely just try to see is, like you never know, because of just how crazy this world is, should we shoot?

Speaker 2: 44:04

Ryan, I'm going to shoot you a link if you want to come and hang um. If you guys don't know who uh ryan is ryan ryan river. So okay, so ryan is um invite a guest. Hang on copy. So ryan is gavin mckinnis's oh um producer oh cool.

Speaker 2: 44:32

So, um, uh, so ryan is gavin mckinnis's producer, so I don't know if he's able to come on, but he's welcome to come on. So ryan and I go to the same parish. He is the producer for, uh, gavin mckinnis. But, um, yeah, so anyway, matt with matt, you know what, like I know I'm drinking and I probably Lucifer.

Speaker 2: 44:52

Gavin McInnes With Matt. I know I'm drinking and I probably shouldn't be saying this stuff. The last few messages I sent Matt, he didn't respond. I'm not going to beg, I'm just not. Oh, look, who's this who? It is, ryan Katsuro. Ryan, yeah, like I'm just not. Oh, look, who's this? Good as ryan, I gotta, I gotta say something, yes, so a lot of people are talking about children misbehaving in mass. Behind your freaking, kids cried throughout the entire mass and I'm sick of it. Untrue. It's definitely untrue. Tell me no, listen to me, all right. So Ryan has two kids and actually three.

Speaker 5: 45:40

You deny life in the womb. Is this correct?

Speaker 2: 45:42

No, I was going to say your wife is pregnant, but your daughter Daphne, yeah, literally has my heart.

Speaker 5: 45:52

Like she's the best. We still have that thing. You gave her like a thing from the keychain and it was, uh, during the oh, he had holy innocence for the easter vigil and she was kind of freaking out a little bit. It's a long mass and you gave her like some cute thing, that's like a little like a kind of like a pearl little keychain. Did you want that back? Was that just to no?

Speaker 2: 46:12

Okay, dude, your daughter, so my? Okay. So my daughter's 13 and his daughter's two, and when? So I, all right. So when I first met Ryan, I was like you're coming to Easter Vigil with us and we're going out to dinner together. I'm like you have no choice, right?

Speaker 5: 46:34

I've been invited to things by Italians. Before it was very familiar. You and me were friends. You go in here. I'm like all right, where's the gun?

Speaker 2: 46:44

Dude, you don't have a choice. We're going to Easter Vigil together. We went to Easter Vigil together and my 13-year-old daughter was there, and my 13 year old, my 13 year old uh, was with ryan's two-year-old, and the two of them were so freaking cute together, dude like my daughter fell in love with his daughter, so I saw ryan.

Speaker 2: 47:08

Uh, so I was away in italy for a couple of weeks and then I saw, saw Ryan at Mass on Sunday and just seeing your daughter, man like she is, oh my God, man, I don't know how you don't eat her face.

Speaker 5: 47:22

I've heard that from plenty of people. They're like how do you stop from biting her Because she is the cutest little girl.

Speaker 2: 47:30

She's so sweet she was a terror.

Speaker 5: 47:32

today she really was.

Speaker 2: 47:34

Never at mass though.

Speaker 5: 47:36

No, no, and that's the thing too. It's like. So there was an Anglican, I think that posted on Twitter and it was like that's what started the controversy, right, and I said you know you should go to Catholicism. It kind of confuses me that Anglican they accept so much of the faith, you know. It's like they just have to have pretty much a bad experience.

Speaker 2: 47:57

Ryan, why hasn't? This is a question.

Speaker 5: 48:00

Every Anglican is one bad day away from conversion.

Speaker 2: 48:04

Why hasn't Gavin?

Speaker 3: 48:05

been on our show. That would be an interesting interview.

Speaker 5: 48:11

I don't think he would uphold the faith. Uh, well, um, I've said it to him publicly, like there were, there was something, just uh, he was in error about something theological or he was kind of just like waxing fantastic about what heaven might be, like just something. I've had to ask my priest a couple of times like, am I complicit in like blasphemy, essentially because of being on the show and he knows that I take it more seriously than him. I'm not talking out of school here, this is a theme on the show that he's like.

Speaker 5: 48:37

You know, it feels kind of petty to pray for my kids little league team to win and I'm like well, this is what you can pray. You could say, lord, please, if it is in your will, let all the members of my son's team perform at their best, may they be focused, may they be concentrated, may they be of good health and may everybody be safe. You can do a prayer like that. That's perfectly fine. You don't have to say you know, I pray my team will win, but you pray that for the individual players that they're good.

Speaker 5: 49:06

And he was just like all right, shut up, nobody cares. And so after the show I was like you know I'm for the first time ever. I've never been tempted to have a podcast of my own, but I was like maybe I should do like a Catholic, take on all of the things that we've heard on this show and then kind of give like a sort of hey, let's not be so reactionary about this, or maybe this is the correct way to go about it If you're curious about a higher Christian virtue and and this whole thing. And I was like it'd be good because I'm not contradicting you, because you have zero theological takes whatsoever and he just like laughed and he thought it was a good idea.

Speaker 5: 49:39

So I might do that okay, so so he won't be coming on for what's long story short.

Speaker 2: 49:46

He's not coming on, all right, but what? No, I don't. I wouldn't say he's never coming on. He can come on, I don't think he's never coming on. He can come on, I don't think he's never coming, all right. So what's interesting is this show wouldn't exist without Anthony Cumia. Yeah, it's a very interesting thing. So like Anthony Cumia had such an effect on me growing up that like I always wanted to broadcast, oh yeah, growing up, that like I always wanted to broadcast, oh yeah, like I I wanted to be a radio guy because of anthony cumia.

Speaker 2: 50:20

That's why you named anthony. Well, it was just one of those things where he was like a guy from long island and he happened to be funny and he was a tin knuckle. He was a construction guy. I forgot yeah. Yeah, I'm like I freaking think like I could do what he does.

Speaker 2: 50:35

He's your confirmation broadcaster yeah, something like that dude like I'm not even like exaggerating like I, because I used to watch him like I wanted to do what he does, like he he had a very big effect on me, man and yeah, and even though he's not in the faith and he's not like he just had a very big effect on me growing up, because I was a construction guy driving in on long island and listening to him it made me want to do this. Yeah, and there's there's elements of this show that are because of him, where it's like we kind of make fun of ourselves, right, like we goof on ourselves, like I don't take myself too seriously. A lot of that has to do with Anthony making fun of Jimmy and things like that. Right right, right, I still, whether I get Gavin or not, like I still want to interview Anthony.

Speaker 5: 51:31

I think you shouldn't. I think it's totally possible. Yeah, in the new year I'm going to I'll push him towards that direction. I think he'd be open to it. His, so his, his girl is actually very Catholic, I think even traditionally Catholic. But you know, for a guy who's been listening to Opie and Anthony for a long time and you know I'll be showing happy new year, you're not, that's awesome met him at a catholic palooza what um oh, enoch, that's right, he's, he killed it.

Speaker 2: 52:05

Wait, yo wait, listen. I met, I met, uh. So we, we were all a catholic palooza and, uh, there was an asian kid that was at at Catholic Palooza and there was an Asian kid that was at Catholic Palooza named Steven, and I spent like most of the day hanging with this kid, steven, thinking it was me. Yeah, but you all look alike.

Speaker 5: 52:23

I don't know what to tell you bro. All the same, we hung out.

Speaker 2: 52:27

You all look alike. I don't know what to tell you. No, I hung out with this kid, Steven. He's a recent Catholic convert and I saw him at Mass on Sunday when I went to Holy Innocence.

Speaker 5: 52:41

Is he short? He's very short. That doesn't really help Asians.

Speaker 3: 52:45

We're talking about Asians, right.

Speaker 2: 52:47

A short Asian kid.

Speaker 5: 52:50

That's true. I wonder if you're talking about the same guy.

Speaker 2: 52:52

I saw him at Mass on Sunday and he was in the communion line and I poked him. I'm like, hey man, what's up?

Speaker 3: 53:00

He's in the communion line. He got mad at me.

Speaker 2: 53:04

So then after Mass he came outside and a few people were coming up and asking for pictures and stuff and he was just standing there staring at me and I'm like what's up, man? It's like you know, I was very focused on communion and you poked me and I'm like dude.

Speaker 5: 53:22

Yeah, you know. So like when I saw you at the last mass on Long Island, there you came up to the pew. I mean this is before the mass started, but still like it's funny because you came up to the pew. I mean this is before the mass started, but still like it's funny, because you came up to the back of the pew and you're like we're chatting a little bit, but quietly, and it just clicked to me. I know Nick saying no, but I think the convert versus convert, or late revert versus cradle, it's different, cause it's like well, this is my house, Like I can, I can put my feet up on the table. It it's like well, this is my house, I can put my feet up on the table. It's like, but for Converse we're so like nerds. You want to?

Speaker 2: 53:58

Freaking nerd. I came over to say hello to my friend and I knew I couldn't hang out after mass. And I came over and I just I can't Look here's what it is Naturalist, bro, here and now.

Speaker 5: 54:13

For the third time. A convert would never answer his phone during the Mass. And then another person answered their phone during the Mass. It was an ovus or an ovulax, but during the prayers the words of consecration, it was like, and it was the typical default grandpa phone.

Speaker 2: 54:32

I don't care if you think this is boring. It's New Year's Eve. What do you think this show is? We're hanging out. It's New Year's Eve, I don't know. Go find another show Sarmata. What even nationality are you?

Speaker 3: 54:49

Goodbye. Definitely not American, nick, block this guy. Listen we're drinking.

Speaker 2: 54:55

We're drinking okay folks I'm over here with I don't know how much alcohol per volume, but this is a diet first of all, wait you you're telling me there was a cradle who let his phone ring more than once at mass. Is that what you're telling me?

Speaker 5: 55:06

I'm assuming he was cradle because it definitely was he was like 80.

Speaker 2: 55:11

All right he's excommunicated. Look, here's the rule the rule is you get one ring on your phone because you forgot, right? If your phone rings twice, you're in mortal sin, that's the rule If your phone rings twice.

Speaker 5: 55:24

You're not a convert, You're not even Catholic. You don't have the fear of Oprah stepping your bounds in this new family. Yo, we're taking away your h1bb good one, sean, you know somewhere out, somewhere in america, there's an american commenter who lost his job to sam sada. He's taking yeah, he's taking the job of american bad comments wait, wait.

Speaker 2: 55:48

No, I missed that. It's always the old people that's true.

Speaker 5: 55:54

Wait, did you want to tie that up? Because I was going to bring up something about Kumeya.

Speaker 2: 55:57

No, I'm just saying look, I knew I couldn't speak to you. After Mass my daughters were falling asleep. It was midnight. First of all, we're talking about midnight Mass. We're not talking about a Sunday Mass, that's right. It was midnight Mass. Now me and my Settle down. Me and my family got there at 11.20 and we had a very nice seat. Ryan showed up at 12.02 and got the last row In the freaking church.

Speaker 5: 56:25

I was there 11.40 latest. Alright.

Speaker 3: 56:30

Moral theology gives the thumbs up to that. That's what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2: 56:34

Nick, nick, don't ever take the freaking Asian guy's side.

Speaker 3: 56:40

I hate to take the Asian guy's side. I'm always America for Americans, but he's not wrong in this situation.

Speaker 2: 56:45

This guy is literally here on a freaking H-1B visa. Did you guys hear? Wesley Huff went on Joe Rogan. Yeah, I will listen to that. I guess it's a follow-up to hubb's debate with billy carson. I will, I'm gonna, I'm going to listen to that and pull any clips and see if we can do uh a show on that, because, look, whether they're catholic or not, uh, a christian pushing nope.

Speaker 5: 57:10

All right, nick here's the thing, but sometimes not, because sometimes I'll misrepresent, sometimes they'll slip in anti-catholic things without you even knowing it, like if you watch a ben shapiro so it's like jew versus christian. You're like I'm rooting for the christian, but then, like it's the one guy I don't know if it's john mcarthur, I think it was. Yeah, it was like, and that's why you know faith alone. It just kind of slips things in there.

Speaker 2: 57:33

All right, listen to me. So the more I argue with Protestants online, the less patience I have for them and the more I understand that it's a totally different religion. Dude, they're not like most of them, don't relate. Look, bughole put out a tweet the other day and he was like Protestants don't actually worship God, they worship themselves. And he's not wrong. Like there's something so twisted about Protestant theology that it's not look like it's not Christian. You can. What they believe is they. They invented a religion loosely based on the Bible, but it is so. The Bible is not. Catholicism is not a religion based on on the Bible. The Bible is the story of Catholicism.

Speaker 3: 58:28

Well, yeah, I know what you're saying. Catholicism gets its teaching from the Bible.

Speaker 2: 58:36

No, Nick, did you hear what I said?

Speaker 3: 58:39

Yeah, you said that the Bible is the story of Catholicism.

Speaker 2: 58:42

Yes, the Bible is the story of Catholicism.

Speaker 3: 58:45

I get what you're saying, but I'm saying that like, yes, that's true in one sense, but the Bible is a font of Revelation. So we get Catholicism, or the divinely revealed deposit base, from the Bible and tradition, of course. But this is perfect. It's a drunk Anthony and a moral theologian and an Asian. What better you can do, I'll find one. I don't care.

Speaker 2: 59:10

No, listen to me, I love this. Protestantism is a religion loosely based on a Catholic book that I agree with, where Catholicism, the Bible, is the story of the Catholic faith, because it starts in Genesis with a covenant and it leads through the story of the people of God. Like I don't say that to provoke when I write that on Twitter, like that actually is denying the argument to own the process. I've never done that, have I? Have I denied the argument to own the process.

Speaker 3: 59:42

No, you're just drunk, it's okay, I am Like.

Speaker 2: 59:45

I'm speaking out of turn here, but I see scripture, as He'd probably be better than it.

Speaker 3: 59:51

Sean, he should work at Catholic Hands With the crap they've been giving us for the last 20 years.

Speaker 2: 1:00:00

All right, you know what. You guys are lucky. I'm not crying on this episode. I'm like seven drinks in. It's not over yet. First off, do you guys see the shirt? My son made me Wait. That is really sick actually the shirt underneath the hoodie, my son, my son goes. Dad, put, put your arms in cruciform oh, that's sick actually yeah that's pretty cool, right?

Speaker 5: 1:00:22

yeah it necessitates you doing that, to reveal that which is interesting yeah, so my son made this for me.

Speaker 2: 1:00:27

This is my christmas gift for my son. That's really nice avoiding babylon logo here. And then he goes dad, put your arms in cruciform and it was avoiding babylon, that's actually cool. I was like all right, that's cool. But like when am I putting my arms out, like that dude, like what the hell kind of gift is that?

Speaker 5: 1:00:46

you know that's. I can tie this back to kumia too, because, like so his girl is is very, uh, very catholic. But, um, what's called so it's for a guy that's been listening to one as long as I have. He's always been like pretty staunchly atheist, like enough so that when he he, he uses the term god like meaningfully lately, like he's like I, you know, I thank god, and like he pauses before he says it and he's, and then he'll casually say he's like, of course, you know, be with your family and you know god and stuff like he he's been mentioning. And for gavin, I don't think he really registers that because I'll show gavin clips of opiate anthony that he's never seen before, like the interview where they're. They're interviewing um donald rumsfeld and louis ck keeps asking him if he's a reptilian during it.

Speaker 2: 1:01:33

Chill out Ryan. Sometimes I feel like Gavin has a bit scandalizing during Get Off my Lawn. I love you both so much. You're both totally unique thoughts, baby monster, I agree.

Speaker 5: 1:01:47

I agree. Yeah, it's like if your advice to find a wife is to like fornicate with five women Dude that's the one thing about Gavin Heck no Nick so.

Speaker 3: 1:01:56

Nick, it's insane, nick. The thing is, people are willing.

Speaker 5: 1:02:00

Heck. No, my role on the show is like the useful idiot, the sort of like funny but retarded guy.

Speaker 2: 1:02:07

I know one of those, all right, so wait, wait, brian. I want to ask you something? Do you think you'll ever get to a point where your conscience?

Speaker 5: 1:02:17

will get in the way of your job. Oh, yeah, yeah, no, it's happening, even even on twitter. Like the things that I'll say on twitter, that's kind of like instigating is he still on twitter or did he get thrown off?

Speaker 5: 1:02:25

no, no, not between him and I, but just like. I'll put out, uh, statements of like apologetic statements, but pretty aggressively aimed towards Protestants, because I was one, like I feel like I have. It's a, I'm one of them, I could say the word I could, like I have. I'm on the other side of this kind of delusion that my potential brothers in Christ could, could, get over and it's like, but I've, and I know that I'm just getting it out there because I know one day I'm just going to probably walk away from social media, or at least that's the goal. Do?

Speaker 2: 1:03:02

you think you'll ever walk away from.

Speaker 5: 1:03:04

Gavin Um listen to me All right, I don't think it would be a sort of just before before you answer that, yeah, I want to try to um, because even the stuff all right.

Speaker 2: 1:03:15

so this episode is about james white, right, and james white calling me out for um. Some of the stuff I post on look like that this isn't will be held to account for every idle word, right? So like I can make light and say, oh, I'm just doing it for the lulz, but some of the stuff I say might cause a little bit of scandal, right, so it's like I was dude, I'm not even kidding, I was thinking about it. Today, I'm like god, am I? Like? Am I selling my soul for 200 bucks a month? Like I'm not. It's not. Like I don't.

Speaker 2: 1:03:52

I'd rather like delete my twitter account than than lose my soul. Like it's not dude, the things that we're doing, even this show, it's a, it's a very heavy burden. We have that all right. So, so you need to make content that people want to watch. But are are we engaging in gossip? Are we engaging in I don't know? Man, this is a dude. I? I think about this stuff all the time. Like I, I don't. I'd rather be poor than lose my soul. So I'm worried about the stuff I post on twitter. I'm being honest like I'm, I'm worried about the stuff I post on Twitter. I'm being honest Like I'm, I'm worried about stuff. Like I think it's funny and I think I'm just doing it for goofs and laughs, but like if I've ever brought anybody away from Catholicism because of some stupid shit I posted like I worry about that man.

Speaker 3: 1:04:46

Like, like it's real because, like I mean, scandal is one of the chief sins against the virtue of charity and like charity is what unites us to God.

Speaker 5: 1:04:57

So it's a.

Speaker 3: 1:04:57

It's a real it's a real thing.

Speaker 5: 1:05:00

No, I'd say just be a little more careful. But you could also. I wish there was like a Catholic community notes where it's like listen, anthony's struggling with between uh, he's struggling. There's a tug of war between being funny and then being orthodox lowercase oh, okay, so, uh, wait, this, um, so no, the one, all right.

Speaker 2: 1:05:20

so, look, we see jesus weep. We see, we see every emotion of christ except mirth, right? So, um, chesterton points this out, chesterton points this out, and Chesterton points this out, and it's a very significant thing. Like we never once see Jesus laugh, we never once see what Jesus finds funny, like this is. This is very important, right? Why would God leave that out of his word where, like, there's not a single instance where Jesus is with family and he had joy and he laughed. Like we see him with to pull out his whip and get angry. We see him weep, we see him stern. Like we see, we see every emotion of Christ, but we never see him have mirth. And I'm very sarcastic man, like I, I worry, I don't want to go to hell over twitter, twitter. Like I really don't, I don't want to go to hell over it and I'm very provocative.

Speaker 5: 1:06:28

you might not have before, but now that you have full awareness that every time you do now, you're fully culpable now no, but Ryan, I'm always fully culpable, like every time.

Speaker 2: 1:06:42

look, this isn't the first time I've thought about this. Okay, so when I say something like the thief on the cross was saved by the prayers of mary because she was at the foot of the cross, is that something that's pious, that would be in the glories of mary, or is that something me like?

Speaker 3: 1:07:03

I don't, I don't know, you know what it comes down to intention. What's your intention behind that? Because there's there's nothing, this is one thing I will say. There's nothing, this is one thing I will say. There is nothing wrong with Catholics. I think Catholics need to be singing the praises of our lady. I'm really sick of Molly pointing out this is true. He does bring this up every once in a while. I would say this, though, In all seriousness I don't think Catholics need to apologize for their devotion to Mary.

Speaker 2: 1:07:26

I don't either.

Speaker 3: 1:07:28

I think that the glories of Mary, like we should all be talking like that all the time. But what I'm saying is if for you, if you need to just say, okay, what is my intention with this? Because, like vice and virtue comes from the will, and so, whatever you're choosing to do, whether it's like, hey, I'm just wanting to get people mad at this, or if you're like I want people to realize, like our lady, all graces flow from her right, from christ, through her, then there's your answer.

Speaker 5: 1:07:54

You know, so you have to it's a doubling down the sense I get from you, anthony, it's like it's a doubling down where it's like you know, like usually it's a thing that's tiptoe, it's like no, no, we, just we pray for her, your, her, I actually I actually hate the tiptoe when.

Speaker 2: 1:08:10

I hate when Catholics say we don't worship Mary, we just ask her intercession Like screw you, I freaking worship her Like and it's not, and it's not and it's not. It's a very different worship that we give to. God. Right, but have you ever seen the photo of all the angels and saints holding the gown of Our Lady in heaven and they're all on their knees? That's worship, but it's just not the same worship we give God. But, dude, my favorite.

Speaker 5: 1:08:49

He's not offering anything.

Speaker 2: 1:08:51

Ryan, my favorite mystery of the rosary is the crowning of Our Lady in Heaven.

Speaker 2: 1:08:58

It is like I've never had a deeper experience in the rosary than the crowning of Our Lady in Heaven, to the point where I've wept during it To the point where I've wept during it because I had when I was away from when I was away from the faith, and this isn't well, when I was away for a long time, like I. So I had my reversion and I came back and then I left the sacraments during Francis's papacy because I just kind of got like very weighed down under the Francis papacy and I just got sick of it and I left. And then I had a dream that I was in hell and it like it was the most real dream I ever had in my life. And I woke up and the first thing I saw was a documentary on Fatima. And after I saw this documentary, like the fear of hell was put in me. So I called my younger brother and then I called my cousin Eddie and I might have told this on air, but I told my younger brother, I told my cousin Eddie and it was the strangest thing, he watched the same documentary on fatima and so did my cousin. They, like all three of us watched the same documentary on fatima in the same three-day period and for me to attribute my salvation to anyone other than our lady when that, like the coincidences that happened around this thing, like I had this vision of myself in hell.

Speaker 2: 1:10:37

I saw this documentary on fatima and and all the things that were happening are like the, the, it, just it, just. Everything in me knows our lady saved me, right, right, yeah. Like everything in me knows our lady saved me Like I was going to hell. I was going to hell and my mother, freaking, opened the window and saved me. So for me, when I see Catholics tiptoe around that and they're like no, we don't worship her. No, no, no, no. We just answer Screw you. I literally pray to her as if she is the one who will save me, not because she died on the cross, but because I know racism.

Speaker 2: 1:11:23

I just know, like Mom, please be merciful to me, even if God and Jesus, like I know I've done such horrible things. But like Mom, please just. And a part of that is and I've told this on the show too, so I hope people that have seen this don't get upset A part of that comes down to the way I saw my mom handle my younger brother's addiction, where all the men in my family so my younger brother was a heroin addict and all the men in my family so my younger brother was a heroin addict, and all the men were so angry at my mom because my mom we thought she was enabling my younger brother and my younger brother, when he was doing heroin, would come to my mom and and she kind of kept this like window open for my brother to always come back. You know, and we're all like mom, what are you doing? Like this kid's a freaking drug addict, like we're all. We were waiting for months for my brother to overdose. Like every day my phone would ring if I saw my mom call. I thought I was getting a phone call. My brother overdosed and he was dead and over enough time. My mom kept this little window open and my brother got clean, wow, and the only one my brother would ever talk to was my mother, because my mother always kept this little avenue open for him to come back Right, right Now this was seven or eight years ago Now. Like I got my brother back, dude, like my brother's been clean for five years, and like I got my freaking.

Speaker 2: 1:12:55

This is my closest brother, ryan. Like this is not. This is not. I have eight siblings, right, this is my brother, who is 16 months younger than me. He's my irish twin brother. We and him grew up together. Me and him both got into the same riffraff together. We both started taking. We both started. We both started taking Oxycontin together. I got clean when my son was born. My brother moved on to heroin.

Speaker 2: 1:13:26

I thought for years I was getting that phone call, my brother was going to die and my mother was just this man. We were so freaking mad at her that she would just leave this Avenue open for him. And then when he got clean he went to rehab and he got thrown out of rehab and my mother took him herself just her and him to my dad's house in Pennsylvania, this trailer that, like my dad, had like a fricking like like trailer park, this trailer, like my dad, had like a freaking like trailer park trash trailer. And my mom spent three freaking months with my brother alone just the two of them at this trailer and all of us thought she was nuts. But if I didn't see that aspect of my mom having this mercy, like this angle of mercy with my younger brother, where none of the men dude, all the men were like cut him off, like stop, stop, stop, stop, and my mom like, if I didn't see that in my mom, I would have never understood Our Lady.

Speaker 5: 1:14:25

Has anybody drawn the conclusion, like, typologically, that it was Eve that presented the apple to Adam? And the sort of negative intercession you know what I mean, the sort of negative offering of something, and then you know what I mean. And then, in the reverse way, where Mary, the new Eve, corrects all those things, she's the one offering the prayers on behalf of men and offering them to the new Adam.

Speaker 3: 1:14:53

Yeah, the fruit of the tree of life, the new Adam? Yeah, no, it's been talked about, but I like the way that you bring it up. I agree with you fully, anthony. I mean I remember whenever I got some—when God kind of smacked me upside the head it was through the hands of Mary, Because I remember for a long time—so coming into the church again. Everyone knows my story. But it was through the the hands of mary, because I remember for a long time. So, like, coming into the church again, everyone knows my story. But it was just highly intellectual.

Speaker 3: 1:15:20

There was a lot of bad habits in my mind I had to correct from protestantism, like, like we, we mean protestantism, but there's some really sick like mind habits, if you grow up in it, that you have to overcome. Particularly, I had to overcome the reality that, like, my sin actually will send me to hell. Like it's not that I'm just this special class and one day god will save me, etc. Etc. Like, no, like this, like you're no one special, like god will send you to hell for this. So I remember once this is when god really just like slapped me upside the head.

Speaker 3: 1:15:46

I was in, I was in this church and I was waiting for confession. It had like 30 minutes, right. So I'm in there praying and I kind of look up and, pictorially, I see the judgment and it just like all of it crashes down on me where I'm like, wow, I am going to go to the judgment one day and I am going to more likely than not. As St Alphonsus Liguori talks about, the way you live is the way you die. If you live in habitual mortal sin, you will die in mortal sin. Why? Because you've bent your will to go after bad stuff.

Speaker 3: 1:16:24

This is also, by the way, why priests need to withhold absolution from what's called recidivist sinners. Those are sinners that use the confessionals as a revolving door. The reason the priest needs to do that is because the priest is enabling you in your bad will to continue. So I'm sitting there and I'm just trembling because I'm recognizing the judgment is real. And then I'm looking up at the cross and who's right next to it in this church?

Speaker 3: 1:16:48

It's Our Lady right, and I just get woken up being the reality of like. She is a human, right, she's a creature, but she is the most perfect human, the most perfect creature who ever lived. That as saint louis de montfort, saint alphonse, as they talk about. God has given her all graces in order to reach down and save me. So I remember in that moment saying like something to the effect of like mary, queen, uh, or refuge of sinners, queen of christians, etc. Please pull me out. I went had confession. It was like the most insane confession experience. I ever had walked out and god freed me from a lot of bad stuff, but it was in hindsight I realized I was dangling over the fire. I was dangling over the fire and our lady was the one that pulled me out yeah, so.

Speaker 2: 1:17:37

So, like I, I wonder if even that statement that I made to dr white like we didn't even play the full clip right, but he goes into saying like uh, he argues with calvin robinson. He's like I've never seen this argument made in the first thousand years. Can you point me to origin?

Speaker 5: 1:17:56

He seems very confused.

Speaker 2: 1:17:57

Yes, it's like dude. This technically was a throwaway comment by me, but the first time I thought of it was because I saw Protestants arguing over the thief on the cross and then I saw a bunch of Catholics going. Well, actually the thief on the cross did a bunch of works and if you go you know he repented and he did, and I'm like who the hell was at the foot of the cross. I don't care if origin never saw it. I don't care if I just don't care, like I know that if I had our lady at the at the place, I was dying.

Speaker 5: 1:18:38

And then you're seeming merciful, then it's like well, you know, what's interesting too about the Mary is because, like, there's two things that Protestant probably would struggle with is that, if you're trying to be like Christ, then, you have to love and embrace your mother, you have to love Mary, you have to love her to a level that you were previously uncomfortable with and they just do so much like lowering and pushing her down, and it's just. You know, it's for me was the rosary, because I'm in a Catholic rock band and we were on the way to a show and we were praying a rosary. That was the first rosary I ever prayed, so I was just saying the latter part of it. You know, um, he would say the first part, we would say the last part, and then after that I was like it was kind of destigmatized, it was like, okay, you know, that's something.

Speaker 5: 1:19:30

And also at that point I was so like disillusioned with Protestantism because I was looking for a church. I was like, what's like the church? Like where do I go to? Like, is it Lutheran Methodist Calvin? What is this Not Calvin? And so I was just my defenses were totally down and I had looked up some things and you know, my friends helped demystify the sort of like uh, the the controversies against the church and like the typical boilerplate 101. I've never looked into it, but I heard we made that hand symbol. It's like, first of all, he didn't. That's a photoshop. But second of all, that's retarded he made the hand symbol therefore I was literally on like the.

Speaker 5: 1:20:08

the vatican audience hall is shaped like a snake level, like that's just evil, that's evil.

Speaker 3: 1:20:15

We're done here.

Speaker 2: 1:20:16

I went and saw an audience with Pope Francis. I'm like man, is this the Pope I got to see in the audience? I love him. I think he's great.

Speaker 5: 1:20:28

I think he does cause a lot of confusion, but I don't know. We've definitely had worse and Ryan, you know why?

Speaker 2: 1:20:35

Can I? Can I tell you you are, you still have the? Your recent convert.

Speaker 5: 1:20:46

The happy to be here thing.

Speaker 2: 1:20:47

Yeah, Like dude, you still have that, like that loads Like I'm Catholic. I freaking god everything we were. I was there once you know it's where, okay so, and I'm not dude, I'm not knocking anything. You're saying right now like I. That was actually beautiful, the things you said, dude. There's something, and there's something very beautiful about the catholic instinct to just love the pope, right, like that's. That's what you should do, is the easiest thing for me to do, for sure it's like just love the pope, like just love the pope and dude.

Speaker 2: 1:21:19

I'm somebody who loves pope alexander the sixth like I freaking.

Speaker 3: 1:21:23

I love the one person, the one I freaking, I freaking love the most heinous popes in history.

Speaker 2: 1:21:28

So for me, who is somebody who loves the most heinous popes in history, for me, who is somebody who loves the most heinous popes in history, I actually still have a love for Pope Francis. I do. The thing is when man it's just a. I have Francis fatigue and I'm just ready. I'm ready for this to be done Like that's just where I'm at.

Speaker 5: 1:21:55

Have you seen, and I was basically there when I started, because I started just Tradcath and I had to kind of like ease up because I was realizing that I have to love the Novus Ordo in as much as I was going to say the Catholic thing, insofar as.

Speaker 5: 1:22:12

So you don't Like Ryan, I know you, you don't, I don't personally, but I also want to understand it, so that way I could realize like what am I sending people to if I tell them to go see a mass and then they're willing to go to a mass rather?

Speaker 3: 1:22:29

You'll know what you're sending them to Read Bunini's book on the liturgy.

Speaker 5: 1:22:33

I've seen the unicorn nova sordos though there were. There were pretty, you know, people receiving on the tongue and kneeling. There's no not there's.

Speaker 2: 1:22:42

I have two, like I've been to saint rocco's when they're, I've been to, I've been to, holy in it I've been to holyence, when they're the unicorn, it's still Ryan. That's the thing. The first time I met Ryan was because I saw Ryan at a Latin Mass. That's the irony of this conversation.

Speaker 5: 1:23:06

We don't go to the Novus Ordo, we go to the Latin Mass.

Speaker 2: 1:23:08

No, we go to the Latin Mass. I saw Ryan at the Latin Mass. I actually shot him a message on twitter and I'm like dude, were you at a latin mass on long island?

Speaker 2: 1:23:19

and I shot him the parish we go to, and he was like, yeah, so that that's how, like ryan and I met, because I saw a japanese guy at mass and I'm like I'm sorry, man no, I'm like it's gotta be him, but like you don't want to go up to the one Japanese guy at Mass and be like yeah, it could be the guy, so I sent him a message and I'm like dude, I know you all look alike, but like that, really look like you yeah. I'm like all you freaking Asians look the same but like that really look like you got lucky, like all all you freaking asians.

Speaker 5: 1:23:53

Look the same but like I can adjust to that look like you do when I, when I go into a group of them, it's like assassin's, when you like, synchronize so true, so true.

Speaker 3: 1:24:04

I, I, I don't. Actually, it's interesting, I don't really have francis fatigue in all honesty, in the sense that, like you know, you always go through your scandalized phase and then, if you continue to study, you kind of like adjust, if you will, one way or another. What scares me about things, though, is as a catechist teacher to children, to eighth graders, to sixth graders, seventh graders, etc. These kids are in a world where pornography is one click away, the priest is absolving everybody. They're seeing horrible masses that are it's in the rubrics, by the way Like the new mass that typically people see is the new mass. It's not like a watered-down. There really is no such thing as liturgical abuse in the new mass Almost every single thing that we complain at is in the rubrics of the general instruction.

Speaker 3: 1:24:53

Like I was going to say, I was going to recommend everyone minus the a thesis in here. When it comes to the like the new math being invalid, I disagree with that. But if you want to read a good book on the subject, father Anthony Jakeda's book is like one of the definitive works on. It's like 600 pages on the history, the actual teachings of the new mass, et cetera.

Speaker 3: 1:25:12

My whole point is this though like those students who are out there or going to public school which is a sin against the virtue of faith, but their parents don't know any better, et cetera, et cetera they're going through the motions. How can I bring the person of Christ to them? And I can't, in all honesty, say that what they're going through right now is normal. So I have to kind of, and this is where I love. This is why I know it's a meme, but this is why I love Archbishop Lefebvre. He was all about being a good pastor. I'm not a priest, but I want these kids to go to heaven, and what terrifies me is these kids who are ill-formed. They go on Twitter and what do they see? All religions lead to heaven.

Speaker 2: 1:25:52

And first of all is bs, because christian wagner goes to an eastern liturgy. That's the. That's the other thing that I have to say. Like all these guys that like I love christian wagner, like he's my friend, like he's like legit friend matt frad, too, trent horn, like all these guys, are novice all go east didn't in joe heschmeyer uh eastern catholic as well all of them are even like voice of reason.

Speaker 2: 1:26:20

You're freaking love voice of reason. What does he do? They all listen to me. They'll all defend the novus ordo, but they all do everything they can to escape it, because the novus or ryan, listen to me, your, your kids are little, right? No, I know you, you're not taking your kids to the novus Ordo. Listen to me.

Speaker 2: 1:26:37

Here's why I went to the Novus Ordo. I am the epitome of the cradle Catholic. My parents took me not just to the Novus Ordo, my parents took me to the Life Team Mass. My parents brought me on retreat. I lost my freaking faith. Your kids are going to lose their faith. That's why when I go to a, that's why when I go to a Latin mass, people recognize me, because those are the Catholics taking their faith seriously.

Speaker 2: 1:27:03

Dude, it's okay, like if you got to go cause you have no other choice, and Nick won't agree with that, but I do agree with that, like Nick, I get. I get Nick's position. I understand it. We love each other anyway. No, I love you, regardless of you being wrong on this.

Speaker 2: 1:27:20

There are times and nick will say the same thing there are times where it's like I don't have access to the latin mass and I'll go to the novice order.

Speaker 2: 1:27:25

And, ryan, I know you're in the same boat, but if you, if you bring your kids consistently to that, you're putting your child's faith in jeopardy, and I know you, as a father, will not do that, like I know you won't, because I know you see the difference at saint dude, when I wrote that tweet about kids crying at mass the other day yeah, I wasn't kidding. Like we go to we go to saint rocco's there are, the whole freaking parish is loaded with little children. None of them cry, they all just sit there, they're all well behaved, they don't cry. Like there's this whole debate about like kids crying at mass and it's like I don't know. I go to a freaking parish where it's loaded with infants and babies and toddlers and none of them cry. You know why? Because they're mesmerized by the latin mass. Like there's something about being there that like kind of just chills the kids out we're gonna start teaching uh daphne prayers in latin.

Speaker 5: 1:28:24

I think we should dude.

Speaker 2: 1:28:25

My wife converted because I taught my children to pray in latin, like my wife was in the kitchen doing dishes and I was in the den teaching my three kids how to pray the hail Mary and I, and I taught them all how to pray the hour father. And when I taught liturgy of St John, it was not Bobby. Bobby, make the sign of the cross the right fricking way. I'm so sick of this kid I can ruin my trip to Italy. I literally love him more than anybody in the world. I'm sorry. Brian, I cut you off.

Speaker 5: 1:29:02

No, no, it's all right. No, but learning, you know, she knows already. You know the Our Father Hail. Mary the Glory Be and then the Fatima Prayer. So we do that in Latin no, not in Latin.

Speaker 5: 1:29:15

Oh, I was going to say, gonna say like she's two dude I know all those, except for the fatima prayer, but, um, yeah, you know what it's like she. She learned it so quick too. But you know what? You know what's interesting about the protestant stain on america, and I think this is why a lot of people choose orthodoxy, as if there is a choice they're like well, that's the one. They want the apostolic lineage, they want the claim that it's an ancient, um the you know ancient church. They also want masculinity, you know, and like in a way that maybe subverts the meekness that you're supposed to display. This is just from what I see, and I love orthodox guys. I think that I think they have a beautiful thing going on. I just don't, I I don't see the marks of God's providence in the church. I just don't.

Speaker 2: 1:30:01

Are you talking about Orthodox? Listen to me, listen to me.

Speaker 5: 1:30:03

Last statement on this. If I was just raised and grew up and I don't have access to J Dyer debates, or if I'm not Russian or Greek, like how is this getting to me? And God's providence has put it that a catholic church is anywhere in the world?

Speaker 2: 1:30:18

and you can go to it. Listen to me, despite this I know everybody thinks like I have this affinity for the east I'm going to explain something to you. The reason I actually love bobby is because he's byzantine catholic. He's not eastern orthodox, the, the, the east, the East, despite its attraction to the aesthetics. There's something so powerful about the go forth and baptize all nations, and only the Latin church did that. The Eastern church did not do that. The Western Latin church went forth and baptized all nations. And there's something so important about understanding the role of the Western church going into, especially as the reformation is happening in Europe and the western church goes into South America and Our Lady appears to Mexico and Our Lady converts 14 million freaking Aztecs in a matter of five years. Dude, there's nothing. The east can, even freaking show.

Speaker 5: 1:31:40

Tony, I have no doubt that the catholic church is going to reunify yeah, I do, I think it'll, I think I mean because if you have to read through transcripts and transcripts and um translations of ecumenical councils to justify your existence or your racism it's just too much, and I also ryan, I also think western guys that are going eastern orthodox, like dude you're, you're from florida, you're from mississippi, you're from texas like stop it, like, knock it off, you are a

Speaker 2: 1:32:13

lat Catholic. Like stop. Like there's something so LARP-y about that. Like I can sit and I can admire the mysticism of the East that I think it's pretty. But like knock it off. Like you're from frickin' DC, you're not Eastern Orthodox. Knock it off. It annoys me, it's a frickin' LARP. Like you're better off going to the Novus Ordo than that.

Speaker 5: 1:32:37

It annoys me, it's a freaking LARP Like you're better off going to the Novus order than that. I'm sorry, but you know, what I will say is that there is this inclination to, when an American Christian finally gets serious, to like I don't trust the American lexicon or accent or demeanor. I need something foreign, because it is so, like you see it, whether it's in movies where they dilute what Christians are, they're like the cock of shot kind of like you're not supposed to be around here. We love lord or whatever. Yeah, and it's like this, this, what america has allowed in terms of christianity are some embarrassing flourishes or deviations from the truth. So you get this sort of like I just don't trust. It's almost like if you hear, if I hear hear JD Vance saying somebody's name while he's being interviewed, he's like well, john, that's an excellent question, john. It's like car salesman energy and you're just like. I just don't trust the ring and timbre of a car salesman-esque sort of I read the 12 laws of power book or something Like it's like pick apart.

Speaker 2: 1:33:34

There's something very significant about it.

Speaker 5: 1:33:38

That's why I think they're going away from the American accent.

Speaker 2: 1:33:41

Even what you're saying. Think about when Shia LaBeouf converted. He's like I go to the Latin Mass and I don't feel like I'm being sold a car. There's something so annoying about the Novus Ordo where it's like dude, the last freaking man, every time you go. They're like the freaking priest with the sports and that's like just because ryan hit the nail on the head like what?

Speaker 3: 1:34:05

what it is fundamentally is that we in our secular, obese, porn obsessed culture is are dying for the eternal and the transcendent.

Speaker 2: 1:34:16

Yes so much.

Speaker 3: 1:34:17

And the Novus Ordo doesn't get that because it is made for man. The Latin mass and then even Eastern Orthodoxy in the sense that they're stolen rights are at least trying to be oriented toward God. We as creatures are supposed to be with God, and so we're just desperately reaching out and saying God, save us, pull us up into this divine dance, if you will, in heaven. The new mass doesn't do that, because the new mass is made for the modern man.

Speaker 2: 1:34:47

This is why I tell people no, it's just Nick, it's the baggage of the Protestants coming over, the Protestant converts coming over. It's just Protestant, it's not. No, no, it's a little protestant, it's not?

Speaker 3: 1:34:57

freaking catholic you don't have. You don't have to convince me of that. I'll be saying that all the time. But what I'll say, what I'll tell people in all seriousness, is this like I know I mean the stuff, but like the new mass, if people just want to see, like get past all the youtube drama about the subject, go and read what bunini himself said. Right, it's like the Constitution. If you want to figure out the Constitution, read the Federalist Papers. Go and read what Bonini said and then come and tell me whether or not he was Catholic or not.

Speaker 5: 1:35:28

I will make one statement about what I think this allows for. Let the Pope explain or go.

Speaker 5: 1:35:35

It's a widening of the gate. I really just go, it's. It's a widening of the gate and I really, I really just believe this. It's like a. It's a widening of the gates. We have the authority to bind and loose. It's a very loosey sort of area right now where it's like listen, protestants, we don't want to scare you off, but now they're not realizing that we want to be scared. We. It's actually, we want the reality of this whole thing. But either way, I'm the is. It's like it's a very shallow entry level sort of thing and it might remind them of you know, it's like, oh, it's like a Protestant thing, but without screens and without musical numbers and lights and fog. I'm just, that's very. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to denigrate the Protestant.

Speaker 2: 1:36:14

They're, they're really to denigrate the protestant they're. They're really. Uh oh, shut up, you freaking ecumenist. They're not even christian, these people. No, I'm not even kidding, that's not christian it doesn't help.

Speaker 5: 1:36:24

You're right, it doesn't help, it doesn't. No, it's.

Speaker 2: 1:36:26

Listen to me look, I love, I love people on a on a, look on the fraternal charity basis, right, but, ryan, they are not christian in the truest sense of of the word.

Speaker 2: 1:36:40

Like, like, what we do testing christian listen to me, it's not just that like, like what we're doing, the ritual of what we do. Look, I've, I made, I've even made the joke with our shirt. It's like I'm religious, not spiritual. Like there are people who say I'm spiritual but not religious. Like I love the freaking ritual of Catholicism because Tell me what to do.

Speaker 2: 1:37:04

Like I'm dumb, and it's more than that it's like dude, if you really understand human nature, people that go to Dude. I watched videos the other day of people at at freaking the the the red socks stadium. Like asking the players please give me dirt from the field.

Speaker 5: 1:37:22

Yeah, but that's your freaking sacramento yeah, oh no, and that's their communion, and their communion is based in division because it's like we all love baseball. So obviously the yankees fans and the in the boston fans are at some point going to realize hey, hey, baseball is pretty great.

Speaker 2: 1:37:35

No, but the idea of taking dirt from Wrigley's Field like dude. The same Protestants that mock us for wanting holy water from lords will go and get that dirt from Wrigley's Field. The same Protestants who will tell us we shouldn't have statues to Our Lady will have a freaking shrine to a family member that passed away.

Speaker 3: 1:38:00

No, what's insane is they'll be like, yeah, you shouldn't have any images of Our Lady, but then they're the ones who will fight tooth and nail to have the nativity on the courthouse lawn.

Speaker 2: 1:38:10

Forget that. They'll fight for a freaking statue of Roosevelt. They'll literally put a statue of Billyosevelt or you know, it's just like the statue of. They'll literally put a statue of of of billy graham, in the capital. There's something so important about ritual for human beings that protestants will glaze over in the religious aspect. They will have they.

Speaker 2: 1:38:35

They don't understand the importance of sacred imagery in a way that makes me sick, because these are people who are addicted to pornography and they don't see the importance of a sacred image of our lady and the holy family. And it's like this is the most important time in history to have sacred images, because we're being thrown pornographic images at every freaking angle and you need sacred images and part of Catholics that annoy me are dude everywhere you go. Like when I went to Italy, they were throwing these freaking little holy cars and they're throwing them at you and it's like I'm gonna throw this away. Don't don't give me a sacred image that is disposable, like a sacred image should be sacred and holy. Don't give me a sacred image that is disposable, like a sacred image should be sacred and holy. Don't give me some piece of paper when I go to this holy site that's going to crumble up in my pocket. Like Catholics, have lost the understanding of the sacred image themselves, which is the one thing I respect about the East with their icons, and it's not, it's something.

Speaker 5: 1:39:36

But you icons and it's not. It's. Oh, yeah, there's something, but you know it's funny too. I literally had, like the face of jesus little throwaway card. We just we can't throw those out because it's like you're not supposed to. Yeah, we have like three.

Speaker 2: 1:39:50

Like look, you go to a funeral. They give you a holy card you're not supposed to freaking throw that thing out? You're supposed to keep that as a sacred? You can't just throw a picture of. Our Lady in the garbage we're going to have to do a whole show on sacred images, because it's something that we've lost as Catholics the understanding of how important these things are. So, all right, real quick, we do have to wrap it up. I have my friend Patrick's coming. He's on his way.

Speaker 3: 1:40:27

Do you guys have any predictions for 2025? Nick predictions for 2025. So, in the church, unfortunately, I have a few predictions in the church. I think what you'll see is the continuation of confusion and division. Oh, by the way, yeah, I can answer this real quick.

Speaker 2: 1:40:34

I want to address this also. So go ahead, nick, finish your thing and then I'll address that.

Speaker 3: 1:40:38

Yeah, I have a good opinion on this. Yeah, so in the church, I predict essentially we'll see more doctrinal confusion, because if your prediction's right, anthony, on you think this might be Pope Francis' last year you'll see the confusion continue to ramp up because it's the last chance at least they have under the francis papacy. So I think that that's what you'll see. In the secular society, I think what you'll see is um a lot of winning and, in all honesty, I do think that there's gonna be a lot more positivity coming from the secular society we gotta do.

Speaker 2: 1:41:11

We have to do a political show because we gotta talk about. We gotta talk about the h1b visa thing. Like me and you might have to do, maybe me and you will do a show midweek, yeah, and just talk h1b visas for, uh, uh, some of the trump stuff because, like, I want to talk to you about some of that stuff.

Speaker 3: 1:41:27

I I have to get into that, so yeah, those are my basically my predictions, and then to answer this, it's a good question. So, uh, when it comes to eucharistic miracles in the new mass, the basic argument that I always pose to people is just remember that typically not always, but typically when Eucharistic miracles happen, it's a sign of God's like chastisement, saying hey, remember, I am here. Because if you read most of them, they are in the context of priests who are doubting the true faith, or the congregation doubting the true faith, so congregation doubting the true faith. So again, I never make the argument that the new mass is invalid. I don't make that argument, but I do say that our Lord is reminding people. Hey, I am here and this is an actual issue.

Speaker 5: 1:42:07

I got to say something on that too, the news article too. There was a woman who they interviewed afterwards, like what's your response about this? Afterwards, like what's your response about this? And she's like, well, I think it's, you know, I thought of how you know jesus the nativity and you know fresh in her mind because that's liturgically where we're at, but, um, that he would, you know, go to somewhere just as lowly as a manger, and he would come to somewhere just a little town, is it? It's like, well, he's, he doesn't just come to like, he's everywhere, in all the churches, he's present. But to like no, that means he was here because something special happened. He's actually in every parish. So it kind of revealed a little bit of like, oh, no, no, that was him coming here and doing that. It's like he was there already. And then that's the teaching part of that.

Speaker 2: 1:42:53

Okay, I need to say something. So Nick is correct. It's often happening when a priest is doubting the true presence. The new mass breathes this kind of doubt.

Speaker 2: 1:43:03

Yes but I think those miracles are actually for the trads, Like I think, Nick, they're for you and they're for me. Wow, when people that doubt Christ is truly present in the Novus Ordo and Christ is still present in the Novus Ordo and Christ is still present in them. And there are still Eucharistic miracles in the Novus Ordo and it's as much as we wish that it was all trad and Latin mass and this and that, like I don't care what you think, Like Jesus is still freaking present there and he is, and that's the scary thing.

Speaker 3: 1:43:39

You know, that's actually the bad thing about, like I, but it's, it's proof that the novus ordo mass.

Speaker 2: 1:43:44

To me I don't know what you think. To me, it's proof that christ is still present I fully, I fully agree with that. That's the scary thing, though because, it's like again, like if you just lack of faith in in the people that are attending or just the attending also the treatment of the eucharist too exactly because I was going to say, like, if you look at these videos where it's like, on average, 10 particles on every single communion on the hand, just do the math.

Speaker 3: 1:44:07

It's like 17 million catholics go to mass every sunday in the united states. Only about a couple hundred thousand are trads. So that means that the vast majority I will just say 16.5, right, 16.5 are taking communion on the hand, or a good amount of them, right? Just do that times 10.

Speaker 3: 1:44:24

That's a systemization of sacralization that's going on, and so I agree with you, I do think christ is present, but I think that's the scary thing. And then, just real quick, uh, zoomer, send me, uh, if you have instagram, send me a dm and I will send you a free six hour video I make on this. Wait can?

Speaker 5: 1:44:43

I can I say something real quick? I do want to see that.

Speaker 3: 1:44:46

If you could send me that I can send you to yeah no way.

Speaker 5: 1:44:49

But, um, I went to it. I went to a saint pat's a couple days ago because we were in the city and our daughter hasn't been there since. Like she was able to like actually take things in. But it's, yeah, you just you can't go to a latin mass to the regularity that we do and then go to a nova sort of and not in the back of your mind, be like look at what are they doing over there and what's. But what's really anxiety-striking or stress-inducing is that first of all, there was a priest and a deacon. There was no Eucharistic minister. So I was like, wow, that's pretty great.

Speaker 5: 1:45:27

I saw somebody receive on the tongue and I said we're good to go, not kneeling, but anyway. So there's people there that didn't even know what to do. They go to a mass it's probably their first mass, they want to participate in it and this guy kind of looks like an immigrant maybe, has gloves on and he's being told to take the gloves off. So he takes the gloves off, then he has it and he's choosing, casually, walks back. I'm like that guy isn't a Catholic. But what I'm thinking is like for the priest and my wife puts it this way he's like in a spiritual war. He's telling people take your hat off while you receive. He's like you have to eat it now. You can't walk away. So he's battling this and our lord is like just being mistreated by by strangers, essentially but he was at the crucifixion yeah, and what's what's and I know it's here's the thing is like it's for the priest.

Speaker 5: 1:46:19

He's like I don't have time to discern whether or not like he'd be there all day. It would be exhausting hundreds of people and I think it's a giving up and a surrendering of like. If this is being willed and this is my question that I was asking, just a kind of like theological little like problem I was working out in my head is there any silver lining in that whatsoever like? Is there still actual graces for somebody if they're receiving it? Would it? Would it bring them closer? And the lord is kind of just allowing himself to be, you know, and like kind of defiled by unworthy receivers? Is there, do they still receive something that can bring them closer?

Speaker 2: 1:47:01

we don't know only god knows that right, only god knows what graces he gives to people um well that was, I mean where, where I, where I'm concerned, is that?

Speaker 3: 1:47:11

so I would say it depends. But I would say, with this one stipulation being that, like again, if people want, I will send you the six hour free video because it's technically a patron video, but I'll send it to you guys if you want it. But like if, hypothetically, if the new math says teaches a different theology and is trying to offer up a different notion of sacrifice to God, god in his love for men, very well may give them grace. God in his love for man, very well may give them grace. But that's out of a pure act of love of God, because the sacrifice that they're committing is something that is really really getting sticky.

Speaker 5: 1:47:46

They're receiving them where they're eating damnation onto themselves.

Speaker 3: 1:47:48

Well, if they are, yeah, If they're in a state of grace, if they're in a state of grace through ignorance, I always try to give people benefit. It's like this this will be my last spicy take in the night, but it's like I always tell people this I don't believe that there's such a thing as a novus ordo catholic. What? What do I mean by that? What I mean by that is I, because I don't believe the novus ordo is catholic. What I say is, more accurately, people, catholics, stuck in the novus ordo yeah that's what I mean by.

Speaker 3: 1:48:14

It's not saying that they're not Catholic, it's just saying that the right is not. And so, therefore, I give people the benefit of the doubt and I say like look, I don't know what, like God is way more merciful than Nick Kavasa's.

Speaker 2: 1:48:24

Right, oh, he certainly is.

Speaker 3: 1:48:27

He's not the way, more just than I am, too Right, and so, that being the case, I try to give gotta give people the benefit of the doubt, but that does not stop people's obligation from studying all right, it takes time and distance to turn an aircraft carrier.

Speaker 2: 1:48:40

That needs changed course, especially when people are malformed over several decades. Father, I appreciate you checking out our show. All right, I'm gonna say something to both of you. Um, I'm really glad we did this tonight. Man, this is new year's eve, I uh, this is one of the fastest shows we've done. I know we had a good show when the show flies by and we're at two hours right now. Nicholas Dude, I freaking love my Nicholas man, my little Nicholas. I freaking adore him. Nick, you have been such a great addition to our the Avoiding Babylon crew. Man. Ryan, thank you for joining us tonight, man, I hope you guys all enjoyed this. I hope everybody has a wonderful New Year's Eve. We are going to wrap this up. I have to go hang with my wife. My friend Patrick's coming over.

Speaker 5: 1:49:32

Can I say one more thing? Yeah, go ahead. In place of plugs, I'll say it as voice of reason.

Speaker 4: 1:49:39

So when I was doing the, I was observing some fasting and abstinence. I reached out to Rob you know Rob isn't here, but you know, because he isn't here I felt that I should mention him. So I reached out and I said what are the fasting guidelines you go by, you know? Do you go by the ones that are like, really are the fasting guidelines you go by? Do you go by the ones that are really really old or do you go by like, oh, I got to be honest. I think I do it just as good of a voice of reason impression as you do, because all you got to do is do a Rocky Balboa impression. This is the nuance of a professional Yo he did a.

Speaker 5: 1:50:13

really I'm going to say this he did a very good.

Speaker 2: 1:50:18

I actually really enjoyed him. On Ruslan's show.

Speaker 5: 1:50:20

Yeah, I was about to say that.

Speaker 2: 1:50:21

Phenomenally good.

Speaker 3: 1:50:22

Is that an?

Speaker 2: 1:50:23

evangelical.

Speaker 3: 1:50:26

Like the recent one.

Speaker 2: 1:50:27

Ruslan is an evangelical or like a whatever. I actually learned from Voice of Reason some things about Purgatory that I was really excited to learn like. Yeah, me too. He's very good dude like when it comes to like, I like him better than trent horn and some of the catholic answers joe johansson meyer's the goat dude.

Speaker 5: 1:50:47

If you guys can get him on the show, I'd be so I'll get him like joe hesshermeyer the problem is.

Speaker 3: 1:50:54

I listened to that interview and I I heard when he was going off about like it's so hard to commit mortal sin. I was like that, the way he described it. I was like that is literally a condemned proposition.

Speaker 2: 1:51:05

Wait a minute. Even for some reason, like for some reason, Alma the Protestant was like downplaying some things Like I was a little annoyed with some of the downplaying some of the things with like missing mass and he's like well, you know, if it wasn't like like it's look it matters about your intention, right?

Speaker 2: 1:51:22

Yeah, it's like sometimes we as Catholics just need to be like bro you miss mass intentionally. Like you chose your thing over God, like. But I also. I also am very sympathetic to because I'm like this, like I don't like arguments, so you try to make your position seem as palatable as possible.

Speaker 2: 1:51:45

Like so, like I would actually like to talk with voice of reason and and you just did. Yeah, I basically did so, all right, listen, we're gonna wrap this up, man, I appreciate both of you. I love both you guys. You too, rob, will be back, hopefully on the next show. Rob, if you're still listening, I hope you guys had a great dinner For all the people who watch this show. Man, I am always blown away. We have 767 people watching this show right now. I know it's not that many on YouTube, but overall the platform is 767 people. Check that out tonight. We love you guys. We will hopefully. I don't know if we're going to skip Thursday, we'll see, but this was fun, man. Nick.

Speaker 2: 1:52:26

Ryan. Thank you both brothers. Amen, ryan, I'll see you on Sunday. Nick, love you brother.

Speaker 5: 1:52:34

All right, boys, let's wrap this one up. Yeah, yeah, yeah happy new year.

Speaker 2: 1:52:36

Oh, to dr james white. Uh, if he comes on, man, I would love to talk with him he interacted with me on twitter because he posted something.

Speaker 5: 1:52:45

I was like wait, is that the james white who, uh who, debated something? Manatees very manatees yeah, and then he responded four times that year actually all right, wait real quick, everybody.

Speaker 2: 1:52:58

If you're not subscribed already, please hit subscribe. That's hilarious. Please hit like. It helps the algorithm of the show and we will see you guys all. Happy new year and we will see all of you next year. Uh, this was fun, man. We will see you guys next time. Happy new year.