Avoiding Babylon
Avoiding Babylon was started during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic. During these difficult and dark days, when most of us were isolated from family, friends, our parishes, and even the Sacraments themselves, this channel was started as a statement of standing against the tyrannical mandates that many of us were living under. Since those early days, this channel has morphed into an amazing community of friends…no…more than friends…Christian brothers and sisters…who have grown in joy and charity.
As we see it, our job here at Avoiding Babylon is to remind ourselves and those who enjoy the channel that being Catholic is a joyful and exciting experience. We seek true Catholic fraternity and eutrapelia with other Catholics who, like us, are doing their best to live out their vocation with the help of God’s Grace. Above all, we try to bring humor and joy to the craziness of this fallen world, for as Hillaire Belloc has famously said:
“Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s always laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!”
Avoiding Babylon
Cardinal Zen Eviscerates Michael Lofton and Reason & Theology
Can Michael Lofton's criticisms hold water against the venerable Cardinal Zen? This episode promises to unravel the web of controversy surrounding their recent public clash, marked by technical glitches in Rob's absence and a wave of audience-generated memes and messages. We'll dissect the uproar sparked by Lofton's critical stance on Cardinal Zen's comments about "Fiducia Suplicans" and church leadership, alongside Steve Ray's supportive tweet that drew Lofton's ire. Buckle up for an engaging exploration of the finer points of respectful theological debate and the broader implications for the Catholic community.
What future does the papacy hold amidst the growing schisms and resistance within the Church? Our discussion extends beyond the Zen-Lofton drama to the ongoing confusion triggered by recent papal documents and statements, especially since the release of Amoris Laetitia. With hopes pinned on a more conservative successor, we delve into historical precedents and the potential for a traditionalist resurgence. Contemplate the prospects of a return to traditional theology and the ensuing challenges, all while we humorously compare Michael Lofton's provocations to Buddy Pine from The Incredibles.
Join us for an insightful journey through the tumultuous landscape of modern Catholicism. From the tension between ecumenism and traditional doctrine to the impact of globalism on Christian nations, we tackle the essential debates shaping today's Church. Engaging with diverse viewpoints, including those of Kennedy Hall, Tim Gordon, and others, we underscore the importance of charity and understanding amidst doctrinal crises. With an eye on the societal consequences of losing a unified Christian framework, this episode promises to be both thought-provoking and entertaining.
Sponsored by Recusant Cellars, an unapologetically Catholic and pro-life winery from Washington state. Use code BASED at checkout for 10% off! https://recusantcellars.com/
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Thank you. I don't know where that video comes from.
Speaker 3:You guys are going to have to bear with us tonight.
Speaker 2:You guys are definitely going to have to bear with us tonight, all right, so wait, we don't have Rob, we're going to try and play clips tonight. You guys have to tell us how that audio was. Were you guys able to hear that?
Speaker 4:I could hear like the latter half. So I think the people were saying there was no audio. Let us know if you could hear part of it, because I definitely heard part of it.
Speaker 3:Alright, so wait, Maybe we should should we play that again?
Speaker 4:Do you guys want it again? Do you guys want it again? When Yeshua said to Yohan the Ma'amadan he said, you must be reborn with a new soul, hey spitting mad facts.
Speaker 2:All right, so the audio is going to be coming directly from my computer. So this is going to be such a messy show tonight. Oh man, what's up?
Speaker 4:Nick, it's good. It's good, what's up. Fellow Thomas Scholastic Answers what's up.
Speaker 2:sir, I'm doing good we finally got it, so that you can highlight the comments you want to now right.
Speaker 4:It's too much power. It's too much power I'm going to have to.
Speaker 2:All right, I honestly people don't understand how much rob actually does this show so true so true, so uh, when did you hear the news that cardinal zen decided to uh have?
Speaker 3:a have a little fun with mr lofton today I actually think it was you.
Speaker 4:I think you texted me and sent it to me and I was like no way. And so then I. It was funny because I was actually getting ready to go out and do a holy hour, but I was like I gotta go and read this, sorry oh no, I ruined your holy hour.
Speaker 4:No, no I pop it on and I died. There was like two lines in it. We'll get into it for sure, but there's two lines in it that just made me laugh so hard it was, it was too comedic I think I sent the wrong file to you.
Speaker 3:Hang on, let me just see um wait, because I want to actually bring the article up. And let me see who did I send it to. I know I sent it to um brother. Appreciate the love, carl. Appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I got the article. So, okay.
Speaker 2:So I woke up this morning, joe Boca texts me and he goes did you see this yet? And I'm like see what? And I take a look and I'm like you have to be kidding me. This is too funny.
Speaker 2:Okay, so Michael today streamed a video and he said did Cardinal Zen refute me on Fiducia's subplica? I don't think people really understand what Cardinal Zen was doing here. But don't worry, cardinal Zen, we got you back Because he was not refuting anything. What he was doing is telling Michael or he's telling Michael's audience stop supporting this guy, like this guy's a fraud, he's a clown. I mean, he went because I suffered through a couple of his videos today. He had a video five months ago where he goes and criticizes Cardinal Zen. Then a month ago, he has one where he criticizes Taylor Marshall and says Cardinal Zen shuts down Taylor Marshall.
Speaker 2:Exactly what's funny about this is cardinals and did not shut down taylor marshall. Cardinal zen respectfully entered a dialogue that taylor was having on his channel. So taylor was discussing vegano and baron and the videos from like 2020 or something, and cardinal zen said hey, I would respectfully like to enter this, this uh debate, and he put some ideas out there about vatican too, and he talked about the hermeneutic and Cardinal Zen said, hey, I would respectfully like to enter this debate and he put some ideas out there about Vatican II and he talked about the hermeneutic of continuity and at the end of it he encourages Taylor to continue what he's doing, says you should stick with the traditionalist label, but Michael Loftin labels this as Cardinal Zen shuts down Taylor Marshall Four months after lambasting Cardinal zen exactly, exactly, anything that's convenient, he'll, he'll do, I'm pretty convinced.
Speaker 2:So anything that's convenient it's uh, it's, it's pretty, uh, it's pretty funny. So we'll go through what cardinals and actually said, and then we're gonna, and then you know what, maybe we should play the michael clips first, because well, I was gonna say like we have to first shout out the audience.
Speaker 4:So the audience has been memeing all day long. They've been sending us memes all day long.
Speaker 2:I asked and I would telegram. This morning I said I want all of your michael lofton memes dude, they, they provided and yes, the anti-beard take was hilarious.
Speaker 4:If people haven't actually gone and read cardinals in statement, it's super short, it's like two, three paragraphs and it's it's definitely well worth the list.
Speaker 2:This was very funny yeah, we're gonna go through all of it, but I'm going to explain to everybody. Beard, it's a pretty funny one. Yeah, we're going to go through all of it, but I'm going to explain to everybody why.
Speaker 3:Cardinal Zen did this, so let's see what do we got here. Oh man, we're going to have to go through a bunch.
Speaker 2:Steve Ray, who is your kindest Catholic apologist of all time.
Speaker 4:Is he?
Speaker 2:OG Catholic Answers World. Yeah, he's like the most normie guy ever. Let me see. I want to pull these up Hang on guys. You guys have to bear with me, without Rob here.
Speaker 2:Here we go. Steve Ray this morning tweets out Bravo, cardinal Zen, a prince of the church. Michael says it's so sad to see how far you have fallen, steve. You spent your career refuting Protestants, just to become one at the end of your career. So Steve says I've always liked you, michael, and still do, but we disagree on this. The degree we have follow or agree on everything with this Pope, but I like and support you on many other matters. I still consider you a friend. However, you calling me a Protestant is simply ridiculous and impugns your credibility.
Speaker 2:We've we've had conversations about Lofton on this show for quite a long time. My biggest issue with him is not that he supports Francis. I mean, I think that there's room for people to be the Pope's planer in this current climate. I get the Catholic impulse to want to cover your father's nakedness and support the Pope.
Speaker 2:What Michael has done is made a grifting career out of just going after other people. So even that, like Taylor Marshall video that I was just talking about, that video has 15,000 views. Now, anytime Michael just discusses theology or the magisterium, he gets like a thousand views. Nobody wants to watch it. The only time he actually gets any attention on his videos are when he goes after people, more prominent, more entertaining, more interesting than he is, and people, exactly, there's a there's a market for that, because they're just, you know, people are tired of of, I guess, the trad world. I don't know, I mean, but I I don't understand how you can see what's gone on in the past 10 years and not be looking with a puzzled look at this point that are just like, at least understand that people are puzzled.
Speaker 4:That's the thing. I mean some of the clips that we're going to show you guys tonight. Michael's just sitting there saying like I don't see how you could even consider fiducia in the slightest way to be confusing all the confusions from the trads. And if you do think it's confusion, then you have ulterior motives and that's the thing. It's just, at the end of the day. Okay, you may disagree, but to just go out and start impugning people willy-nilly, I think is a bit extreme, to say the least, but extremely. You're right. I think a lot of it's just grifting and for money, because, think about it, it's just like I'm trying to. I was trying to make a list of all the famous catholics michael's gone after. So it's like we got scott hon we got you and rob, right, you and rob. We got tim gordon we got, we got. Uh, flanders martin yeah, ralph martin. Eric Ibarra, matt Fradd Holdsworth, steve Ray yeah, steve Ray, now, apparently on Zoom. Who couldn't forget the Babylon Bee. Do you remember the Babylon Bee one where he called out the Babylon Bee.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, that he took something they said seriously and said why are you impugning the Pope like this?
Speaker 4:Yeah, he went out to the Babylon Bee. He's gone after, obviously, strickland, burke, schneider, pretty much everybody, and so what's kind of funny to me about all this is it's not that, it's not that again, like I wouldn't take some of Michael's arguments seriously it's just that he's made himself a meme, Like he's made the word charity and nuance memes associated with him, which I think is completely defeated the purpose of what he probably would have wanted.
Speaker 2:I think the most unbearable thing about him is the condescension. It's when he even when he addresses people and because because if somebody puts something out publicly, it's you know it is what it is. It's out there, publicly, you can address it, Like we've done. Uh, uh, we played clips of people and discussed what they're doing, things like that. There's nothing wrong with that. What it is is he really has made himself a meme, but the way he handles. I want to play, I put them in order, but there's one clip that I don't even know if I loaded it oh no, there's one that I posted today where he's just.
Speaker 2:I might have to just do audio for this one, guys, because yeah. So we'll just do the audio on this one.
Speaker 5:If Cardinal Zinn or Bishop So-and-so or whoever is unable to harmonize Fiducia sulicans with the past, I have a sincere question Should they be a cardinal, should they be a bishop, should they be a clergyman? That's an honest question, so I'm not buying it. I don't think that the document's this confusing. I don't think that they're really just struggling to understand it. I think there's something else going on.
Speaker 2:Okay. So you're wondering why Cardinal Zen wrote that today. That right, there is it in a nutshell right Him actually having the nerve to say if you can't make sense of fiducia supplicants, should you even be a Cardinal Like this is a prince of the church. I mean, I've seen trads handle soupage with more charity than Michael is handling the Zen situation. Now, if it's not a cardinal of the church who has the right to actually challenge these ideas that are coming forward, who actually should do it? Like?
Speaker 4:should everybody in the church just, without question, just take anything that comes down from the vatican without ever saying, okay, I'm having a hard time with this yeah, no, I think, from the videos that I watched, he wants to take the hermeneutic of continuity seriously, but by doing so, he immediately questions anybody who, in his mind, is not doing it as perfectly as him. I mean, that's why we're going to throw up in a second. But, you know, on his youtube account he now calls himself the you know inquisitor of youtube, and I'm sure that that's, of course, a meme and a joke, but I think that it's somewhat indicative of how he's made his show. Like everybody is like oh, if I make some type of uh, you know statement online, michftin's going to come and destroy me. So this comes from his official YouTube page. Description Magisterium explainer Grand inquisitor of YouTube, mocked by Cardinal Zen for defending the Catholic Church.
Speaker 2:No, you were mocked by Cardinal Zen for being a pompous tool, bro, that is why you were mocked by Cardinal Zen.
Speaker 2:This had nothing to do with you defending the church, if anything, and that's the other thing. What do you think Cardinal Zen is doing? Like the guy is 92 years old. He's coming to the end of his life. Do you think this man who before Francis? You have to really think about all of the guys who we considered heroes of the Catholic faith, the guys who taught us the faith, the guys, the cardinals, who we thought were brave for standing up to the cultural zeitgeist, every one of them who had the courage to stand up and say no, no, no. You know, this behavior is wrong, doing this is wrong, I don't care what the culture says. All of these guys who were our heroes under the last pontificate, who adored Benedict the 16th, who loved the hermeneutic of continuity in the second Vatican council. Now, all of a sudden, these guys are saying wait a minute, something's going on here, but Michael Lofton says they're destroying the church. So we have to take what Michael Lofton says. What does he say here? Yeah, it's the same thing, right.
Speaker 4:Okay, right, okay, yeah, there's, there's just a cure for nuance. So true, bro, so true, yeah. No, I mean, it's, it's the thing, it's, it's the classic overton window. It's like the guys that were, you know, conservative, you know, so to speak, a decade ago, are now outside of the pale because of how the status quo goes. And that's the thing it's like, okay, I get it.
Speaker 4:If people want to try to make that hermeneutic continuity to that extreme, okay, go for it. You have that, that right to do so. But if you're going to make a grift out of it as well as publicly just attack everybody who disagrees with you all the time, one of the arguments I see michael make a lot is he says you know, whenever people make videos about him, you never invited me to come on the show, bro, like you don't. You're not taking me very seriously and I'm like okay, well, uh, all of the videos that you had about you know, like back in the day when you had schneider on your show and stuff, they're all gone, they're all gone all the videos that you have.
Speaker 4:They're all.
Speaker 2:Here's what you're inviting tay understand on the show. Here's what you have to understand about michael he will use somebody to boost his own profile. Right, he'll use a guy he'll. He had tim gordon on, he had eric bar on, he had kennedy hall on, he had cardinal zen on, he had bishop schneider on. These are all guys he had on his show. He gets them on, gets a little bit of boost in his profile and then throws them under the bus. There's absolutely zero loyalty to a person you have a personal relationship and friendship with. He doesn't care at all. We have friends all across the theological spectrum. I mean, I really do. We had Pinesap on the other day and then I'll have Kennedy Hall on. You can have differing opinions from people without trying to destroy their reputation and accuse them of being traitors and Protestants.
Speaker 4:Exactly, exactly. That's the thing I will hang out Like I was watching, so I think you're still in the chat, but Scholastic Answers was talking about this earlier and his reaction to this whole article was pretty priceless. So go check out his video on the subject. It's pretty funny, but he was talking about it. He's like, yeah, he'd come on here, he'd come on Avoiding Babylon and chill with us. And I was like, yeah, come on over. He and I, I'm sure, agree on like 95% of things, because we're both Thomists and we both love scholasticism. We probably won't agree 100% on like the SSPX and Pope Francis, but like, who cares? Like, as long as you can be chill with each other, who cares?
Speaker 2:You're allowed to have disagreements and honestly there's. We got to get into some of these videos. Let's just do it. Let's just do it All right. So all right, bear with me, I'm going to pull it up, pause it.
Speaker 3:I got to pause it real quick and then I'll bring it back and then we'll bring it up on screen.
Speaker 2:Let's see. Yeah, this is going to be rough. You guys got to tell me if you can't hear the audio. I'll try and shut up so you can.
Speaker 5:To be clear, I would say the confusion has mostly been introduced from the critics of the document, who have often misrepresented it. That has caused a great deal of confusion, but let's just say that the document itself was confusing. Let's just go ahead and grant that for a moment, hypothetically. My question is what has Cardinal Zinn and others done? What have they done to clear up that confusion? By providing a harmonious interpretation of the document in harmony with the past, as they are required to do according to the hermeneutic of continuity, as Benedict, who made him a cardinal, noted. Now, what I've done on this channel is the first day it came out. I've read through every single line of that document and I showed you how it is harmonious with what came before and how there's no substantial rupture, and I've also spent a number of videos continuing to do that because of the confusion that many critics so even even how he's probably.
Speaker 2:I have done this on my channel.
Speaker 4:It's like one of the things he said I I forget whether it was a tweet or whether it was in his video, but he said that carnal's in needs to review his literally 57 video playlist discussing fiducia.
Speaker 5:And I'm like bro the guy is 92.
Speaker 4:He's probably literally waiting to die. He's being persecuted by the Chinese communist government. The last thing he wants to do is sit through more torture by watching a 57 video clip.
Speaker 2:But even this. What we're doing, this is tedious, right, what we're doing right now is pretty tedious. We're going through one of his videos. But what Cardinal Zen did? Should we start reading Cardinal Zen, or should we play some of the pomposity and then people will? Really understand why Cardinal Zen did this.
Speaker 4:Let's read some of Cardinal Zen, because there's a few lines in it that I think the more theologically astute of us. It's too good. It's too good some of the stuff that he says. Okay, so.
Speaker 2:I am accused of not following the hermeneutic of continuity when criticizing fiducia supplicans. I must confess that I have often wasted my time following the program Reason and Theology.
Speaker 4:So just again picture in your mind a little old Chinese man going to his computer and he's having some fun.
Speaker 2:Well, that's the other thing. Okay, so people have to grasp what's going on here. First off, I saw a bunch of people saying this isn't, you know, this wasn't charitable. He should have handled this differently. And it's like, first off, like can we all man up? He made a joke or two. He said I've wasted my time watching that. He's not like really insulting michael, he's he's trying to get people to realize this guy's just, he's just the worst, you know, yeah so I've wasted.
Speaker 2:I've often wasted my time following the program reason of theology. And you know what props to michael for getting him? I mean he's got. He's got carlos Reason to Theology. And you know what Props to Michael for getting him? I mean he's got Cardinal Zen watching his channel, the guy you know props to him for that, the big man with the little beard.
Speaker 4:That's something I feel like Donald Trump would say If he was like Michael he's just the big man with the little beard. He's pretty fat.
Speaker 2:Pretty, fat and gay. It really is a trump as a trump, uh insult oh, one thousand percent.
Speaker 4:It's literally just like I. I don't think I didn't hear what he said, I don't think he knows what he said.
Speaker 2:Like it's one of those moments this big man with a little beard who would do well to hide his tattoo when he speaks like a theologian. Now, he's not saying he's. He's not saying it's bad that you have a tattoo. He's saying, if you're going to speak like a theologian, maybe cover that up so you look a little more sophisticated than you, because you look like me, a construction worker, when you discuss theological topics, which you shouldn't really be doing.
Speaker 2:I've been driven by curiosity to hear the hilarious nonsense he said. Driven by curiosity to hear the hilarious nonsense he said. This time, however, I saw that he was criticizing me with great seriousness. He is scandalized that I, who insist so much on the hermeneutic of continuity, now dare criticize fiducia supplicants. I don't even think I'm pronouncing that right, but this whole video that michael did on Cardinal Zen was just him, for an hour plus, speaking down to Cardinal Zen as if he is destroying the church with his words, not even remotely taking into account that there were five other cardinals that submitted a dubia. Because there's genuine confusion, not because they want to stir contempt for the Holy Father, like they actually want clarity to some of these questions. These questions are weighing heavy on the souls of Catholics. Now I'm glad Michael and the people who watch his channel are totally confident in everything they see. But the rest of the church is sitting here wondering why does this pontificate seem so different from everyone that came before it?
Speaker 4:yeah, no, exactly. I think like when you look at the whole span of the global church, you see all the african bishops had issues with it. Every single bishop's conference, most of the eastern rights did a fair amount of latin right had issues with it. But apparently it's so easy to interpret because I he read every single line, guys, he probably meditated on it too for his holy hour and it's it's just super clear. It's just super clear.
Speaker 2:Well, what you'll always notice about him is because, just like every document that comes out of Rome nowadays, it has a very um Orthodox beginning, and then they throw some mixed up nonsense in the middle and then they ended however they ended, but there's always the way the documents come out. Is there's orthodoxy in it for people like Michael to just keep going? Oh well, look at the orthodoxy, look at the orthodoxy. And he completely ignores the problematic parts. Now, I don't want to go through fiduciary supplicants again We've done it a dozen times but the problematic paragraphs he always leaves out, and those are the paragraphs that these cardinals are addressing. That's the other thing. Cardinal Zen is accusing Francis of heresy. Now, what happened when the African bishops stood together and said we cannot enact this? And they actually gave them an exemption. So why is it different when the African bishops do it, but not when Cardinal Zen does it?
Speaker 4:Well, because, if you remember, they had that really condescending line from. It was maybe it was, it was either Pope Francis or, or what's his name, fernandez, and he was just like, yeah, I don't think, I don't think the Africans really understood any of this. It was kind of like one of those moments, just like there, there, little black bishops there there, it's okay, we don't really. You can keep your thing going.
Speaker 2:I want to put Christian Mario's comment up. That's so wrong.
Speaker 4:Already did. No worries.
Speaker 2:I wasn't me that's. I told you it would be dangerous to give me this power.
Speaker 4:It was going to be a little bit.
Speaker 2:I got several people reached out to me today and said just remember, you'll be held account for every word, so I'm going to do my best. I also got a text from I don't know if I should say his name, but he said he said, uh, okay, that that a non-traditional but good Cardinal shot him down with a savage insult is hilarious. We'll have to call him forever the big man with the little beard. So much is packed in that insult Intemperance, grandiosity, egotism and theological obtuseness. And then he said Lofton reminds me of Buddy Pine from the Incredibles, the villain who turned on his own heroes because he couldn't be one of them.
Speaker 4:Oh my gosh, that's actually oh my gosh, it's too accurate. It's too accurate. Do you still have your um, uh, henry sesson's tweet from the other day? Damn, why don't I send that?
Speaker 2:I don't think is that in the show notes.
Speaker 4:I think it's in the show now. Yeah, pull it up because it's a thing worth talking about, because we're on the subject, so, for you guys who don't know Henry Sessions, is this like? I don't even know how old he is, he's like Gen Z, or maybe he's millennial, I forget, but he's this guy who, on Twitter, is Joe Biden's greatest defender. He is the president's planerer, if you will, and he will defend tooth and nail every single thing that joe biden does. And, uh, we all independently, the other day, recognized that michael lofton was. This was the exact same thing. So I mean, can you, uh, yeah, so it's like when you look at it, look at what henry sesson says. He's he just like. After the debate, he says, holy crap, biden just destroyed trump. How many billions of dollars do you owe the civil penalties? Or you know, etc. Etc. I won't I won't necessarily read the rest of it, but uh, you know, he's like boom, biden just calls out trump for being a convicted felon. I'm like, why does this sound familiar?
Speaker 2:the delusion you have to have to actually say this about that debate. Boom Biden calls out Trump for being a convicted felon. The only convicted felon on the stage is Trump Exactly. Never let the American people forget that Trump is a convicted felon. He breaks the law. And then Loftin saying, with the sunglasses, pope Francis. With the sunglasses, francis approves Latin mass. Oh really Does he. Sunglasses pope francis. With the sunglasses, francis approves latin mass. Oh really does he yeah, he met.
Speaker 4:He met with some guys for the afternoon.
Speaker 2:Congratulations, what a, what a great grift yeah, and we don't actually know what happened from that meeting, other than the ecclesia day community said francis said to continue on with what you're doing. That's all we know. Um, all right, yeah, I don't want to show all of our conversations. All right, let's get back to the Lofton explaining. Let me find it All right. So now I'm going to be lost in my place.
Speaker 5:Let's be clear. I would say the confusion has mostly been introduced from the critics of the document. We'll skip a minute, because we heard everything Up that confusion, and do what one is required to do, and that is interpret this with the hermeneutic of continuity. If I interpret it with a hermeneutic of rupture, I am no different than those who broke away from the tradition of the Church and started to dissent against Humanae Vitae, or those who broke away from the Church and dissented against Vatican II. I'm no different from them.
Speaker 5:So, I have endeavored just with a lot of effort at this point as far as time. It's been a very time-consuming thing responding to all of the critics. I've done my best to try to show people it's actually pretty easy to harmonize these things and I'm certainly no authority on the matter. There are much more qualified people who could do a better job. Certainly, Cardinal Zinn could do a much better job than I in harmonizing fiduciary supplicants with documents from the past. Right, Wouldn't you say that? Would you think that I could do a better job than Cardinal Zinn?
Speaker 2:Okay. So today Michael puts out his video and he's like I'm not going to address the ad hominem attacks that you know the mocking of my beard and I'm not going to address the you know the tattoo issue and what he says about people not. But how is this not an ad hominem in all ways? But you know he's not directly insulting him, but the tone of his voice, the condescending tone. Shouldn't Cardinal Zed be able to Just the arrogance of you thinking you understand what's going on? First off, you've been in the church for two years, bro, and you're talking to people who have been lifelong Catholics, have lived through three, four papacies. Some of them I mean Cardinal Zed has lived through four right Something like that.
Speaker 2:Five technically, if you count John Paul I.
Speaker 4:So I mean for maybe even john the 23rd 92 yeah, he's 100, he's almost 100, goodness gracious bro he's been around since the council, this guy, you know, it's like I mean he'd be around, since he would have to have been born like they're a pious the 12th.
Speaker 4:He's an old geezer, but I mean, like the, the reality is is. I mean michael can say this, but then like, okay, well, why did you change your youtube profile to like you know being attacked by cardinals in as if you're going to try, you're using this as almost another notch to prove your point. You're like, everyone else is against me. I'm the only true warrior online defending the holy father. Well, no, michael, just here's the thing. You can have your theories, that's cool. You can do your thing, that's cool. You can try to merge a square into a, into a round hole, etc. But if you really want people's respect, stop doing the 24 7 attack videos. He was born under pious the 11th, sean dang, that's that is wild.
Speaker 2:That's how long it's been around, so yeah, so this is. You're talking about a guy who was born under pious the 11th. He comes, sees world war ii happened. He's I mean this guy's 92 right?
Speaker 4:so wait yeah no, no, it's pretty. No, no, he was young.
Speaker 2:He was young during that, but he still sees the change in, he sees the council happen and he's gung-ho about the council.
Speaker 2:And he's taking Benedict's line of the hermeneutic of continuity, right, and he's saying we need to make sense of tradition, which that whole article that he did talking to Taylor Marshall was essentially that, the hermeneutic of continuity. And he's saying look we, you know, does the Holy Spirit not have something to teach us in this day and age? Now, his interpretation of it is the same as Benedict's. Where there was a council of the media and the things that happened, there was no proper way to implement it, there was no plan to implement it properly. Now, when Francis comes in, stop gaslighting me, man. I know what's happened to the Francis. I know what he did to the John Paul II Institute.
Speaker 2:I know what he's done when Cardinal Seurat was head of the Congregation for Divine Liturgy and he tells everybody hey, you should celebrate Mass ad orientum, you know to try and have that hermeneutic of continuity. And you see the beauty from the old. No, don't listen to Cardinal Seurat, I don't want you to do that. Then he throws Cardinal Seurat. You can see what he did with all of the staffing that he makes, right, he gets. Look at all of the cardinals and bishops that he's elevating and putting into positions of power. Don't tell me, this is a hermeneutic of continuity. We're not the ones looking for a hermeneutic of rupture. Francis is a hermeneutic of rupture, and it's not because we're crazy.
Speaker 4:No, I mean, it's like I made. I made a video like two weeks ago. It was like, within one week, pope francis prays with buddhists and people can say, okay, you know, did he pray with them? Did not pray with them? Okay, they're surrounding him giving their chance inside the Vatican. That's not good Videos up all over the place.
Speaker 4:Same week, he appoints three homosexual activists, open homosexual activists who are clergy members to the congregation of the doctrine of faith, and then, you know, he encourages an openly gay seminarian to quote continue going. But see, here's the thing people have selective hearing, so they look at that or they look at, you know, within a few weeks, the two comments that he made about, uh, you know, vagolias, if you will, he makes it all together and it's like, okay, if I'm, if I wasn't catholic or if I was trying to be unpartisan about it, here's what I would say okay, pope francis, he probably behind closed doors, says some off-color jokes, but in public he's a politician and to be a good politician in the world of classical neoliberalism and globalism, you go along with the changes, right, particularly if you already are suspect of liberation, theology, etc. Yeah, exactly, he's going to be something for for comments against the youtuber so it's just, it's just stuff like that.
Speaker 2:You know it's ridiculous, it's uh it's just, we've really entered bizarro world at this point, where we have cardinals of the church who we all respect, actually not even like. He's, not even um, I'm all over the place, guys. I'm sorry, when rob's right here, let's, let's finish the article, um, okay. So this time, however, I saw that he was criticizing me with great seriousness. He's scandalized that I, who insist so much on the hermeneutic of continuity, now dare to criticize fiducia supplicans. This means that mr lofton does not even know how to distinguish the different value of pronouncements that come from rome. If I remember well, mr lofton sometimes confess that he is not a theologian, but it seems to me that he understands the different, that he understands the differentiated authority of the vatican documents less than any one of my catechumens that is the greatest line, in my opinion, of the entire document, because that's basically like big brain theological trash.
Speaker 4:He's basically saying you don't even know the theological notes. Michael, chill out. That's basically what he's saying.
Speaker 2:My kids know better than this I speak of, of the hermeneutic of continuity, when speaking of the ecumenical councils, the highest degree of authority of the magisterium, the Declaration for Ducer Supplicants, is instead, obviously the work of the most evident tuco, even if rubber-stamped by Francis. Now, often we'll say, yeah, okay, but most papal documents are ghostwritten and rubber-stamped by the Pope. That's fine. Written in rubber stamp by the Pope, that's fine. But if there is going to be a challenge, the proper place for that challenge to come from is not the YouTube guys criticizing, which is usually what Michael says. It is a cardinal of the church and if not just one, it's a group of cardinals who are saying, hey, we're having an issue with this, we want a clarification, we're going to submit a dubia. Yeah, we're not going to answer your dubia, that's an issue right there, like this is. This is what we've been going through for the, especially since tuco's in there like tuco's not exactly a theological brain and the crazy part is guys like lofton have actually said we want to go for pope.
Speaker 4:I know exactly these guys are on crack or something. I don't know what. I don't know what their, what their deal is. I think that at the end of the day I was thinking about this, I was like, why does lofton do so much of this? Because it's like, okay, some of it's conviction for sure, some of it's for for his job. And like, let's be honest, like, if you make a video about like even this video, like this video will get plenty of hits because it just has michael lochten's in right and it's funny because we're not even addressing, and the point of this video is not even to address all his theological points, it's just to meme a bit because he's made himself into a meme.
Speaker 4:But I was thinking like, why does he do all of this? And at the end of the day I really have to wonder. Sometimes it's like, is it a fragile conscience in the sense that he's afraid of what's going on and he's trying to figure out a solution? Is he genuinely trying to help people?
Speaker 2:No, I think he's a total fraud. I really do. I think he's a total fraud. I think this is all a grift. I don't think he has an ounce. I don't think he has an ounce of integrity Not one.
Speaker 4:And that's why I'm inclined to believe with you because it's like you and I know enough people who he has smeared in the fact that it's like reason theology back in the day. Wasn't it like five hosts, four or five hosts back in the day? And it is now literally, as you can see up there in the top right hand corner, the Michael Lofton show. And it's one thing if people you know have lives and they need to move on.
Speaker 2:It's another thing if you grift your way and alienate all of your friends to the point of where they don't want to work with you and now they're your opponents. Nick, I have people in my life that I disagree with, but I would never just bro. I know I know other people who, like were friends, had a falling out and they still wouldn't do the things that he does publicly. They don't publicly smear each other, and so is it with the things that he does is so deplorable. I mean I can I compare him to judas? Like you threw friendships out to get a couple bucks on youtube. To what? To get your channel bigger. And then you sit there and you sit on this moral high ground like I am defending pope frame.
Speaker 2:That's not what you're doing, you're gross.
Speaker 4:No, it's not and that's, and that's the thing is. It's like why? Why are you going off and attacking people like this? Would be the funniest thing, taylor marshall, if you, if you happen to see this clip, this is this is advice from, uh, from a gen's ear. Go onto youtube and make a 10 second short and just say, michael, you are fake and gay, and then that'd be it. He'd make a 10 second short and just say, michael, you are fake and gay, and then that'd be it. He'd make a 10 hour stream reacting to it, talking about all your quote heresies, and it would be the funniest thing online and every single commentator. Just go and make that video alone and you'll be fine.
Speaker 2:I'll never give him the benefit of the doubt, to actually argue his theological points. I just wouldn't even like. That's not anybody who thinks he's this great philosophical or theological mind Like, do you guys? I look, I had to sit through a couple of his videos today and it was legit torture. Guys, sincere question if a cardinal called you out like this, would you make a video hours later acting like he is your peer? So okay, so let's try and see it as, let's say, cardinal Cupich called me out, because obviously, if Cardinal Zen called me out, I'd be like holy cow, like no, like. That's the difference, right? So Cardinal Zen is this respected cardinal who, for under the last pontificate was, was a hero to us. I mean, this is a man who stood up to the chinese government on behalf of the catholic church. Michael, you're a youtuber, you're a youtuber. This man has a life of heroic virtue like are you that?
Speaker 4:that's the thing. And plus, like, okay, let's say soupage was to call me out, but let's say it was in the same mode, this little skinny, scrawny, low-t guy, he can't get with the times, he just wants to go back and he thinks christ worshiped in latin, right, something like that. He'd probably say something like that about me. I would think it would be kind of funny, first off because I'd be like how did you find? For me it would be, how did you find my show, because it's still pretty small. But then, second, it would be funny because I'd be like, all right, yeah, like I am actually on the slimmer side of things. Right, I'm a little bit on the slimmer side of things compared to, especially michael and you know, at the end of the day, it is what it Right. But I wouldn't get up there and I wouldn't say you are like this is Matic dissenter or your lead peeping people into schism. I would just be like, all right, this was.
Speaker 2:No, because at the end of the day, he's still a prince of the church. Exactly so, even if it's stupid, like I don't, I don't know, man Michael will act like he's all high and mighty because he defends Pope Francis, and then he will go and bury the rest of the hierarchy. You're church militant, bro. Stop it. That's all you're doing. You're doing what church militant does or did when they were around. There's no difference there. You're just picking and choosing what authority you want to follow. There's no and anybody.
Speaker 2:The only sin in new church is criticism of Francis. None of these people that he's criticizing are actually attacking Francis in any way. They're saying look, we have some issues with the doctrine here that you're putting forward. It's confusing. Also, these are spiritual fathers to countless people, right? So these men see the flock struggling to make sense of things. So they are speaking up on behalf of that struggling flock and not them. Who? That's what I want to know. Who is supposed to do? This is supposed to be taylor marshall is supposed to be me oh yeah, no, I would the church would be the proper avenue for this exactly, I'd be totally I.
Speaker 4:The thing is is that it is an apples and origins comparison, because it's at the end of the day, fiducia supplicants is, at best a confusing document, right, that caused a lot of issues. Right, at best caused a lot of issues, and he should, and that's the thing, michael's not even conceding that point. At best we should both be able to agree. Even if you think it's perfect, I think it's not that. At least it was confusing, right, and the reality is, is that because it's confusing, I can be like, okay, let's test this to the rest of the magisterium, etc.
Speaker 4:But if first, like supich comes out, right, which he's you know as an example, like thrown pro-life groups out of his diocese, etc. He has no issue with homosexual activity, clearly in his diocese. Okay, well then, compare that to the natural and eternal law. You don't have to come out. If he comes out tomorrow and says Kavasas is a homophobe, I'd be like, okay, badge of honor, because anybody who calls anybody a homophobe at this point is probably rooting for the other team, if you know what I'm saying. So it just doesn't work.
Speaker 2:So the pope is always right when teaching publicly on faith and morals. I've heard this Pope say that people that are living in cohabitation receive the same grace as those in marriage, in the bonds of marriage, in the sacrament of marriage. You're going to tell me that he's right in that situation because he spoke publicly. You're out of your mind.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, that that that comment clearly doesn't know very much. And again, I don't know if you're just trolling or anything, but it's like, uh that that idea I'll put it that way that idea that the pope is always right when he teaches on faith and morals, that's incorrect. There's three levels, broadly speaking, of the magisterium the extraordinary magisterium, the ordinary universal magisterium and the authentic magisterium. Most of what we have seen over the past 60 years has belonged to the realm of the authentic magisterium. The authentic magisterium only demands submission of intellect and will, not of divine and Catholic faith, to it, and it is only going to be something that is beneficial and helpful if the pope or the bishop is teaching from the divine sources of faith. If they're not teaching from the divine sources of faith, then all the theologians are clear that we have the right to question and to withhold assent from it.
Speaker 4:What you're accepting is what Michael has proposed on his show, which is called the papal safety theory. It's this idea that even if the pope was to teach something wrong, it can never damage the faith. Sir, that is a theological opinion as valid as the opposite theological opinion which denies that. Okay, let's both hold different opinions, but if you're going to come out and say, well, you guys are wrong, you're schismatics, you're dissenters. No, sir, you don't know what you're talking about. On the Magisterium, if you want to go and check out that whole discussion, go watch a video called Clear Ideas About the Infallible Magisterium on my show, the Traditional Thomist, and you'll get a whole two-hour lecture on the magisterium.
Speaker 2:Yeah, guys, I'm sure a lot of new people will be checking this out. Go subscribe to the Traditional Thomist. He's got much higher quality content than our channel.
Speaker 5:This is where I nerd out a bit. This is where I actually nerd out.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:All right. So let's let's skip this video and let's go to the next one, and let's see what we got.
Speaker 4:I'm going to say this again no, your reading of this is not in line with the theologians, your personal reading of this. Go watch the video. I cite dozens and dozens and dozens of commentators on the subject.
Speaker 2:So well, I don't know who that is, but he's saying. He's saying my interpretation is wrong. Why do we need Michael Lawton to interpret every single thing that comes out of the Vatican Exactly Like? Well, we need to. We need to interpret everything through the lens of Michael Lawton at this point. Come on, Do we not, as Catholics, deserve to have a Pope who actually teaches the Catholic faith and not have to worry about these messy wordings where he's blessing James Martin's ministry at the beginning of Pride Month every single year? Can we really not expect anything better than that from the papacy?
Speaker 4:I'd say, yeah, just just read fiducia, just read anything that pope francis has said. If it's super clear, then why is there confusion? That's the thing, the entire, starting with amoris starting with amoris from the footnotes amoris.
Speaker 2:This papacy has been nothing but one confusing document after another, plus one confusing action or airplane interview after another, plus every horrific appointment to every single office that he possibly could to make sure that all the damage he's done is not undone. Like, don't make me do this. I don't like doing this on my channel. I honestly don't. I actually do like to cover my father's nakedness. We try not to talk about the Pope, but this guy is so insufferable that there's no way around discussing these things. He will sit there and highlight one little thing that sounded Orthodox and disregard every single thing we have all been watching for the past decade. It's insane.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and when Pope Francis and papacy is done and we have just I predict it's probably going to be just like a pretty chill conservative pope after this. If we have a pretty chill conservative pope after this, what would be so nice is that the Catholic blog sphere will completely dry up on Catholic news for the most part and we'll just go back to actually talking about theology. Can you picture that? That'd be epic.
Speaker 2:Our show will be fine because we just have conversations. We won't be looking for the next crazy story out of Rome. It'll just be a normal papacy where we're not worried about some airplane interview, and it'll just be. Our show will just be friends hanging out having a conversation, which is what we do regularly. You'll be doing nerding out into some traditional thing from the Middle Ages, and you'll still have something to do and people will still watch it the people that I'm so excited for something like that to happen because a guy like him, his channel will collapse. It will collapse completely exactly.
Speaker 4:And see, this is the thing, what? What do you guys do when a pope comes out and he's just like, yeah, so pope francis was, maybe he doesn't go off like full, you know, full cock, but maybe he goes off and he says, yeah, I mean, let's be honest, pope francis, he, he did a lot of damage by uh, saying a lot of ambiguous things, and so we're here to clean this up. Is michael gonna be like it was not ambiguous at all? I literally read it, line by line.
Speaker 2:I wonder if he'll. I wonder if he'll continue to defend the legacy of francis he'll defend pope francis when he's dead.
Speaker 4:He'll defend, even if it's going to be too bad. It's going to be too bad.
Speaker 2:I don't know about this man. I don't know about this. Everybody says that they you don't know the Francis fatigue that's going on.
Speaker 4:Yeah, exactly, I get a little bit of crap from this from typically boomers, but I'm a bit more optimistic about both, like the state of the church overall, as well as elements of us politics. Um, I'm a little bit more optimistic, but yeah, I think, uh, I'm pretty sure, that our next pope is going to be at least at least a neocon of some kind.
Speaker 2:I don't think he'll be a full-blown traditionalist, unfortunately, but probably a neocon um, I think, I mean we've had this conversation, but I think anybody even slightly to the right of francis, you're going to see catastrophe, like if you get a benedict the 17th comes in, do you? There there's a schism. There's no way. The people that are that are that have their hearts set on progress, whatever the heck that means the this progression that's happening in the church, those people are not going to stick around for a Benedict the 17th. So I think, by virtue of the office, I think a Benedict the 17th would end up becoming a pope pius the 10th, because he's gonna see there's. It's futile to try and do a hermeneutic of continuity now. He's gonna go.
Speaker 4:Let's just go back to tradition, it's just yeah, what else are you gonna do? It's gonna be basically like do you know much, anthony, about um, the fifth ladder and council and martin luther, do you know much about that?
Speaker 2:nah not really so.
Speaker 4:It's like the fifth ladder is one of those councils you never really hear talked about at all. Right, and basically fifth ladder and council ended like five years or something before martin luther nailed the 95 theses before. Okay, so before luther, okay, yeah, before luther. And so it was up there. It was pretty short, but basically there were plenty of clergy who for decades kept appealing back to ladder and five, ladder and five, ladder and five, ladder and five. And eventually the popes were like yo, okay, clearly all of the north of europe is apostatizing, this ain't working. And so what do they do? They have the council of trent. They nail things down and they really have to open up and clear things, and that's what I think is going to happen. You'll see a lot of confusion continue. People have been appealing to vatican 2, vatican 2, vatican 2, go back and read it, go back and read it, and then eventually we're going to have trent 2.0, second council. Trent's going to come in there, clean everything.
Speaker 2:I think you're going to okay, so look, but because of the the confusion under this papacy, I think you're going to get a lot of clarification of the actual uh, like what the actual limits of the papacy are going to be after this yeah, well, it's even.
Speaker 4:It's even like I I mentioned on my episode about the papacy and the magisterium, is that we have two extremes at the moment. We have an extreme by excess and defect in excess. You see the hyper papalists and the sedes, who both think that every single thing that the pope says should be submitted to without question, and the setes. The only added variable is that they think that because the Popes have quote taught heresy, I either, not the Pope, and then on the other end of this spectrum and I criticize these people in my video too you have what Tim is called, right, tim Flanders is called the neo-Jansenist trads, which are like it doesn't like, unless it's an infallible declaration, I'm just going to trash the Pope on everything and I will never submit to anything, etc. Etc. Both of those are problems, but both of them lack true understanding of the magisterium as it's already been taught, and that's the issue. And so these videos that Michael is making only reinstills further confusion.
Speaker 2:All right let's play some more.
Speaker 5:Clarification in light of the critics who twisted and distorted things. It seems to me the church has done that multiple times now. What still remains confusing, I don't know, but I'll simply say this If we're having such a difficult time in understanding fiducia supplicans and harmonizing it with the past and what has previously come from the St Dicastery or from the church in general, I honestly fear that you'll be lost in trying to understand Vatican II and reconciling it with the past.
Speaker 2:Like just think about what he's saying here, freudian slip, but just think about the way he's talking about Cardinal Zen. It's just you really think about what this man has lived through, what he's done, that he is a cardinal of the church and he's just talking down to him like I think that if you're having a problem with this, you're too dumb to understand vatican too, but that's not an ad hominem. That's not an ad hominem. That condescending tone is an ad hominem.
Speaker 4:Right, you shouldn't be a bishop. That's not an ad hominem like this is the. Again, he is reminding me of the people who are like man. If you think that that your gas prices are too expensive and that food shortages are a thing, you're just dumb. You need to open your eyes and recognize that this economy is working. It's completely fine. That's the attitude that I'm getting.
Speaker 2:I've heard him highlight Padre Pio's submission to the papacy. That's why I because I saw that Padre Pio submitted to Paul VI even though they were doing all this stuff to him. There's a scene in that Padre Pio movie that we watched and I don't know if it's really happened, but it's an interesting scene, because there was a cardinal who wrote this scandalous article about Padreio and one of the one of the laymen comes up to padre pio and he's like we won't let him get away with this and pio smacks him across the face. He goes that's a, that's a car, that's a prince of the church. Who are you? You're a degenerate. Like that's what he said. So like I could just picture padre pio smacking michael upside down. Who are you? You're a degenerate what are you? Doing my.
Speaker 4:My thing is it's like again that argument for obedience doesn't work. It's a noble expression of obedience 1,000%. But a religious individual, like a religious, as in a religious, in that order, his submission is going to be a bit different than ours because of, for instance, vows of obedience etc. And it's a pious practice to do. But does that mean that that's the universal standard? No, not at all. There's. There's actually a fair amount of diversity, within correct limits. You would have loved his raps maybe. So who knows? Yeah, padre pio is not nuanced I agree he's not nuanced.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you want to know what's funny, though?
Speaker 2:like we don't ever go after other catholics, this is, it's just unique to this guy.
Speaker 4:We've only talked about Michael like three, four times, just because he's the gift that keeps on giving. It's only him.
Speaker 2:But part of me wants to believe that, deep down, cardinal Zen did this for us, not Michael.
Speaker 4:He did this for us.
Speaker 2:He did this for us. He wanted to see it. He did this for us he wanted to see it. Yeah, like part of me just wants to believe, like Cardinal Zen knows, that we're the only ones that can do this.
Speaker 4:I'm going to give a subliminal message to Michael. So, Michael, if you're watching this, as you're preparing for your six hour live stream and response, I want you to know that Cardinal Zen messaged Anthony, Rob and I and told him that he was going to drop this heat and it was for our show. So take that into account as you expose us, please. I'm 100% serious.
Speaker 2:He'll never rebut our show because we're not doing theological stuff.
Speaker 4:Because we'll do another response.
Speaker 2:It'll be more mean. It's just first off, technically it's punching down for him, right? I mean he's a much bigger channel than us. He's punching down if he addresses. I don't think a lot of. I think he's a little afraid of us. I think he knows. He knows I'm a little bit of a bro.
Speaker 4:He already told you you're going to hell because you called him yeah he did.
Speaker 2:You're already the last part the last part of cardinal's end, it will be said that mr lofton is defending the pope and nobody can blame him for that right. He's saying nobody can blame him for defending the pope. That's a catholic sensibility, but I am sure his nonsense will not help the holy father in any way. I am wasting these minutes of time not to defend myself from mr lofton's accusations but to invite those who frequent his site to stop wasting their time and perhaps their money. That's all this whole thing is about. This whole thing is not. It's listening to the condescending way Loftin is speaking about cardinals and bishops of the church who have any kind of issue whatsoever with the way things have been going the past 10 years, the way he talks down to them. Issue whatsoever with the way things have been going the past 10 years, the way he talks down to them, like he is the official interpreter of the magisterium and anybody who has any questions whatsoever is just a schismatic, a crypto sette or whatever nickname he wants to come up with to define us and tell us that we're all sette, adjacent or whatever we are. This is just Cardinal Zengon. Guys, please stop supporting this fraud.
Speaker 2:This wasn't about refuting his arguments. This wasn't even about insulting him. This was to get everybody. Guys, this guy is a huckster. This whole thing, his. You want to know what his entire thing is really about. This, right here is all it actually. Oh no, not that this. This is what it actually comes down to right here.
Speaker 4:Oh, what did I do? What did I do you have to like tab over? Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2:Right here, here it is. This is what it's about.
Speaker 5:Hit that like button, Hit the subscribe button. There's already people jumping on the bandwagon, attacking the channel and calling for its cancellation.
Speaker 2:Who's calling for your cancellation? Who's calling for your cancellation? Who's calling for your cancellation? We want you put in prison, not taking off youtube.
Speaker 4:A random commenter who's like this should be taken down.
Speaker 5:They're calling for my cancellation, y'all we create content that defends jesus's teaching authority on earth today. If you've benefited from the channel in the past, hit that subscribe button, hit that like button and also consider supporting me at patreoncom yeah, of course, that's all that.
Speaker 2:Look his whole day. First off, I woke up giddy when I read this article this morning. I was like I can't wait to do this. This is so exciting to me, but nobody was happier than Loftin, because in the end, what this actually does is raise his profile and it'll bring attention to him and stuff, but hopefully more people see him for what he actually is. I mean he's. You remember this one If you defend the Talmud, you should be canceled. I don't remember that one.
Speaker 4:You don't remember that one, so it was like it was like two months ago he came out with a video saying that the Talmud, every reference to our Lord in it, that's blasphemous and satanic, right that maybe, in fact, that it's not referring to Christ and maybe it's referring to somebody else. And if you go to his YouTube page, you saw this again. People go check out Scholastic Answers video on the subject. He like went to his page this morning and Lofton's doing all these videos now about the Israeli conflict and he has like this video which the thumbnails like the Star of David up on it. I'm just like, hmm, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but what the heck is going on here?
Speaker 2:That's just weird, there was a let me see.
Speaker 3:See, I want to get to. Let's see, this is a short one. What does he say here?
Speaker 5:I'm just not. And if that is the case, if cardinals in or bishops so and so, whoever is unable to harmonize fiducia suplicans with the past, I have a sincere question Should they be a cardinal?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was the one we heard. Okay, I had that clip.
Speaker 5:Should they be a clergyman? That's an honest question. Oh, that's an honest question, Michael. Is it so? I'm not buying it. I don't think that the document's this confusing. I don't think that they're really just struggling to understand it. I think there's something else going on what do you?
Speaker 2:what else do you think is going on like I?
Speaker 1:don't know like this so, after fiducia came out, after fiducia came out.
Speaker 2:Do you remember the picture in the new york times the next day of james martin blessing a couple in a church setting? And he comes out and he goes, the James father, james Martin, is going against fiduciary supplicants. And then, like two weeks later, james Martin's at the Vatican getting blessed by Pope Francis Like no, I know, oh, my goodness, yeah, I don't, I don't understand.
Speaker 4:It's just something to where for me, me it's somewhat amusing, because I sit back and I'm like okay, you know, maybe he just really really likes pope francis, I don't know. I mean, let me tell you something real quick about this.
Speaker 2:Chick me and her like going at it in battle. She's grown on me. I actually like her now oh yeah yeah, I've had like straight up wars with her about like catholicism, but now I kind of like her. She's pretty cool.
Speaker 4:Hey, that's funny. Anthony can respect people who will put up a good fight.
Speaker 2:I'll respect anybody that doesn't get easily offended. I respect anybody that can laugh at themselves. If you can laugh at yourself and poke fun at yourself, obviously you don't take yourself too seriously. People that take themselves so seriously, I don't it's difficult to, you know, I don't. It's just difficult to to be friends with people that are that like just it's just pompous, you know it's too much. This one, I think, was good too. Let me see.
Speaker 5:Again golly.
Speaker 2:I thought I wanted to make fun of you Again.
Speaker 5:Golly, I thought I wanted to make fun of you Again. Golly, you're having this much difficulty with this document, boy, you're ripe for the picking, for a set of a contest, to come along and pick you off pretty quickly and show you oh well, look, vatican II is just completely a rupture with the past and therefore you should reject Vatican II with the past and therefore you should reject Vatican II. An Eastern Orthodox, a well educated Eastern Orthodox apologist, could pick these guys off and pick them apart pretty easily. I would say this is really not hard.
Speaker 2:This is really not hard, like two men getting blessed in a church. Why are you confused? It's really hard, guys, like two men getting blessed in a church. Oh, we're just so confused. Why are you confused? It's you know, blessing the couple and the union are two different things. As of 10 minutes ago.
Speaker 4:I'm like, okay, look, so according to your logic again, is every single bishop's conference, africa, completely just off the rocker, since apparently it's so easy to interpret. That's that. That's the issue that I have is that there seems to be, yeah, like modern papers, like I need to know how somebody can watch what we just watched and say he's pretty impartial, not arrogant.
Speaker 2:He lets logic and facts speak for themselves. People add the attitude to it like Are you watching something different than me? I don't know. Am I nuts? Because I know I'm like.
Speaker 4:You're Italian? Yeah, I'm Italian from New.
Speaker 2:York. You know, things bother me.
Speaker 4:I don't think so. That's just the thing. It's like okay, francis has his words, he has his actions. They've been confusing. Is michael clear? I think michael is clear on the fact that he loves pope francis. Yeah, like that's.
Speaker 2:That's not insane do you think he?
Speaker 4:really does, though I see I don't know. See, this is the thing. Maybe I'm naive. For me, the reason I do youtube is because I genuinely love theology and I love like teaching people and helping people having discussions. So again, like, actually, if you're still in the chat, scholastic answers.
Speaker 4:If you and I want to do a collab one day, that'd be kind of fun nerd out over some scholasticism, but uh it's like I love it for that reason, but I think because this is michael's career and he knew that there was a niche market for the anti-Taylor Marshall crowd, yeah, and he jumped on that bandwagon because actually you still you have the chat. Pull up that, pull up the the. The photo of MOC from back in the day Did you look at that one that I sent you from from earlier, from MOC?
Speaker 2:Pope Lofton. Off the rails, that one.
Speaker 4:No, no, no from the meeting of Catholic. It has Kennedy Halls in the photo.
Speaker 2:I saw one.
Speaker 4:Yeah, let me see it's in the show notes. It should be in the show notes, I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 3:Let me see. Let me see if I can find it.
Speaker 4:I see a bunch of tweets you sent, I'll send it right now again in the show notes.
Speaker 2:Just yeah, send it, send it to the show. Here it is, here it is, I got it, I got it, I got it. Yeah, okay, dude, do you remember this world like?
Speaker 4:so look at this. This is back in the day two years ago. Lofton says, let's just put it this way lefebvre was at least more of a hero than john paul ii lefebvre was at least more of a hero than john paul ii.
Speaker 2:Holy cow. I look at kennedy up there with jeremiah and man this is those were the days. Those were you have to really think about how much this guy has changed his opinion, how many times he's changed his opinion on things. How do you?
Speaker 4:know that was. That was a rare lofton, w though I would actually say that's you know my controversial opinion. But uh, yeah, that's the thing. Like lofton, you can have your opinion. That's cool, bro, but at the same time, what you were doing is causing a disaster. I don't know.
Speaker 2:He said he said, uh, at the end of his show today to Cardinal Zen that I am if you saw how many because in the line where he says stop wasting your time with this guy, where he says I'm wasting these minutes not to defend myself but to invite those who frequent his site to stop wasting their time Wasting their time. I get messages all the time from people who tell me that I saved them from leaving the church. I get messages all the time from people telling me dude, if it wasn't for guys like you speaking out and letting me know I'm not crazy, I'd have left the church. There's people on all different spectrums who need to hear different things.
Speaker 2:I remember I was not attending the sacraments after seeing Francis do some of the things he did, and hearing a show with Taylor Marshall, tim Gordon and Patrick Coffin called Red Pilled on Pope Francis is what brought me back, because I said, wow, there are guys who actually are not hiding what they're seeing. They're not just explaining this stuff away. I felt like I was losing my mind. I felt like I was crazy just explaining this stuff away. I felt like I was losing my mind. I felt like I was crazy. So I do think there are people on different spectrums who they just have different temperaments and they don't want to hear like delusion, like like the things he does is delusion yeah, that's part of it, I think also.
Speaker 4:Just, I mean, maybe this is going to sound a little harsh to everyone, but it's like this. Let's be honest, the catholic, the average catholic layman, is so starved of basic catechesis that he knows that he knows a handful of things right, but when he sees some stuff online one way or the other he can be swayed either way. And so, of course, the mass, if you will, of uncatechized faithful can say you saved me from set of a contest pro, because you made a 56 part series about why fiduciary is based in a 500 plus part series on traditionalism. Or they can look at Taylor Marshall or us and say thank you guys, so much, you know you saved me. Et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 4:I'm not trying to make it relative, my point is just okay, anyone can say that, literally. Anyone can say that it's like, for instance, with the trad recovery conference. Right, they're saying, okay, look at the negative impacts of traditionalism. I'd say, okay, we'll take your exact same arguments and you can apply them to why don't you have the catholic recovery conference, atheists and deconstructionists who are like I was hurt by the catholic church and this is why it's wrong. We need a recovery conference from it? That's the issue. Anyone? So you guys don't even know how many people reached out to me today and this is why it's wrong.
Speaker 2:We need a recovery conference from it. That's the issue. So you guys don't even know how many people reached out to me today. You got a lot. There are a lot of creators that I'm friends with that would love to do what we're doing right now, but like they just don't want to play in the slop, Like we don't mind getting our hand dirty, they wrote bro literally has spotlights focused on his master's degrees. Like who's gonna say that's a fair point.
Speaker 4:Actually, I didn't think about that.
Speaker 2:He's got spotlights on his master's degree. Like how are you gonna tell me this guy isn't pompous? Come on stop it just look at that face.
Speaker 4:Look at that face. That that man is is the magisterium of youtube I am.
Speaker 2:I am sure that people are. I mean, we're going to be flooded with the, the loft and groupies after this in the, in the, in the comments, like we. We get them every time, anytime, whenever kibara came on, whenever we talk about it, we get the the loft and groupies telling me how uncharitable I am. But the whole point of showing these clips is to show that he's uncharitable in a passive-aggressive, underhanded way. He may not be calling names, like I am, but he's doing it in a way that's so underhanded. And just look at how dumb these people are.
Speaker 2:I know better than a car that lifted up to the communist republic of china. Like are you insane, bro?
Speaker 4:do I do? I put up a scholastic answers comment here.
Speaker 2:It's pretty, it's pretty funny, it's pretty funny people call me the n-word, but it doesn't matter, my random messages are not relevant dude, that's so funny, that is so funny, it's true, it's true.
Speaker 4:I yeah, no, I mean, this is what I I find funny. So it's like, okay, think of the buzzwords for a second, let's break this down. Charitable, nuanced, hyper qualified statements like you can't read my heart, stop judging me, etc. Okay, lofton, your literal career is to judge other people. Assume what's in their heart and you're not being charitable, quote, unquote. And that's the thing. All of you guys out there, by watching Lofton, can you guys tell me, aside from maybe scholastic answers, a good definition about what the virtue of charity is, the fruits of the Holy Ghost accompanying the said virtue of charity, the vices that are against the virtue of charity, et cetera. We just use the term charitable as a substitute for nice being, nice being friendly.
Speaker 2:That's all that we do. But is Francis the Pope, though you neither know that he is nor know that he isn't? But not knowing is just too uncomfortable for the trads. They either become 58 sette or tantamount to it, or they become papal idolaters. How about neither Neither Kennedy Hall nor michael lofton, neither tim gordon nor mike lewis, neither father maudsley nor schneider or lofton? Neither say the novus ordo is the, neither say the novus ordo is not a catholic right, nor the tlm is not a catholic right. I don't know what. I don't know what you're getting at there.
Speaker 4:Um, I think that from the majority of oh god, nick, I was just gonna say from kind of what I'm getting from that I'm wondering, and correct me if I'm wrong, sir, who commented that, but are you Eastern Orthodox? And it sounds like it's coming from an Eastern Orthodox perspective. And again, my simple answer, literally, to all of that would be don't follow creators, don't follow us, don't put us into these, like you know, puppet master schemes of like. Always go to them. As my authority, go back to the manuals, go back to the catechisms, study your Catholic faith, get properly trained, build an intellectual habitus and then go and compare. There you go. That's all you need to do. And if you want to say, well, that's too difficult, because we don't read, we want Twitter, okay, well, you're lost.
Speaker 2:I would say the majority of trads that I know have kind of resigned to saying, okay, I'm not 100 sure what's going on right now, but I trust that jesus has promised that the gates of hell will not prevail like. I trust that promise and I'm not going to make crazy pronouncements. I'm going to sit back and just see how god hands look. God writes straight, with crooked lines, things that you think like, the things that we think are so insane. Right now. We don't know what was going on. We don't know what popes held personally in the Middle Ages, because we didn't have access to them. What's getting crazy is kind of the ambiguity in the documents that are coming out that we've never seen in the history of the church. But I still think the majority of people are sitting back and saying, okay, god's going to use this for good.
Speaker 4:He always uses what we do wrong for good in the end, and I think that's the majority of people's positions right now yeah, exactly, if you want, I can give you like a brief, like 30 second debunking of set of a cantism or set of a cantism. If it's probably so it's like here. Here's my big issue with the theory Vatican one is explicit in its anathemas that the papacy and that the sea of Peter right Will endure until the end of time, right, until our Lord returns, right. That is a dogma of faith with an accompanying anathema to it. Here's my question If the papacy has been vacant, or if the See of Rome has been vacant since 1958, then that dogma is rendered, at least in its practical terms, completely useless.
Speaker 4:Therefore, my sentence that I would apply to set of accountism is at least proximate to heresy because in practice it denies one of the dogmas. Now, if one wants to return and say but but what about all this stuff that's been going on since the council? Okay, I agree with you, right, I'm an sspx guy, but I also recognized, or maybe, if I want to meme a bit nuanced enough to say there's different levels of the magisterium, and if you want more information on that, go check out my video.
Speaker 4:So I'm gonna do a 20 the diamond girls are gonna do a 20-hour response video to me I actually it would be really interesting if the diamond brothers just did a video like a hit piece on me, just because I'd be interested to see, like based off of my like little time on youtube what they would quote dig up. They'd be like he presents himself as a traditional catholic but unfortunately he's a heretic, so it's like but that's everybody.
Speaker 2:I mean, you have you had that that crazy broad from boston saying the same thing about you? Yeah, right, the crazy broad. Look, I just think that I have. I have friends who are on like a wide array of the spectrum. You know, I just think it's so confusing right now that I kind of just extend a little charity to regardless of your position, because, first of all, I don't know.
Speaker 4:I have no idea what's going on, yeah, yeah. Like, I have my position and I and I have obviously like concerns about set of a contism et cetera, but I'm also not going to just go out there and blast and be like, oh, it is so obvious that fiducia is completely in line with everything that pope saint pius x did, and if you don't read that, you just don't speak english like I'm not, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do that.
Speaker 2:You know it is crazy how just the whole idea of modernism really has set into the church I mean just in throughout the entire hierarchy, and to the point you made on the trad roundtable that day that we're still all making it like this is about liturgy and that's what's going on right now. But really there's a doctrinal crisis in the church right now and we're dealing with a hierarchy who just does not care what God actually thinks, and they're very concerned with the opinions of men, and that's what I think it comes down to.
Speaker 4:Yeah, bro, if you want, let's do a collab on that. That actually be an interesting discussion. I think it would be proximate to heresy myself at least in practice, with the added variable of no pope since 1958, the 1958 part particularly. I don't see how you don't at least tantamount. Get in practice. Um, proximate to heresy. But yeah, to your point, anthony I I agree like neo-modern. What is so seditious about neo-modernism people? If you want a definition of neo-modernism, you can go find it. Uh, like a father, isn't it? Like Father Hardin? Was it Father Hardin who wrote that Catholic dictionary.
Speaker 4:Yeah, he has a good definition for it online that can be found if you want a shorter version. But basically, neomodernism is taking the dogmas of the faith and rewarding them for modern man's sensibilities, particularly wedding modern philosophy with Catholic theology in some form. The end result of that, of course, is said, the changing of the faith. This is what Humanae Generis was extremely concerned about, right Pius XII and Humanae Generis. I'm actually making a very long video right now on the subject of the new mass.
Speaker 4:It's going to be like my one shop staple video on the new mass for people who don't want to watch my whole series on the new mass, and one of the things that I go over is that when you go over, for instance, boyar Bunini, um Dom Orico sell, et cetera these guys who helped craft the new mass what goes back to the root of it is that they had fundamentally different notions of the redemption, sin, propitiatory sacrifice, justice, man's dignity, etc. And these bled into the new mess. These were different than what was traditionally accepted in scholastic thought, and the result of this was a liturgy that promoted right at least, or weakened or obscured Catholic doctrine, obscured it. The end result being, therefore, is that we see, today your average document from Rome is not written by a Roman congregation filled with Thomistic Dominicans who are applying censors right to the modern errors, but rather it's like the document that you and I covered on transgenderism yeah, a lot of good stuff, but it never talked about how this is an offense against God.
Speaker 2:Yeah absolutely. There was a couple of good things in it, but it was also very messy, that whole document too. So all right. So can one believe that the currency of Peter is vacant and not be a set of accountants, in short, having faith that the next pope will unquestionably be Catholic? I think a lot of people hold that opinion. I think there's like a name for it set of privationists or something, but those they've held it since 1958, too.
Speaker 2:So I think this is an interregnum, was legit, but that there's not been a pope since 2013.
Speaker 4:I would say that that's just a brand. It's not a classical, but it's a brand of set, of a contism, because some set A's say that John XXIII wasn't a pope. Some of them will actually push it further forward and say it was Paul VI. That was the first quote invalid anti-pope. I would say both of those are wrong and again, I would say that for me, I think that there's just overwhelming evidence that pope francis is the pope, but I think that there's also equally overwhelming evidence to suggest that, at best, his teaching, particularly when it comes to his authentic magisterium, has been riddled with at least problematic, problematic things that need to be cleared up asap man.
Speaker 2:All right, we're not going to drag this on for two hours. We're going to wrap it. Here we are. You want to do? You want to go to locals for a little bit nick?
Speaker 2:yeah, we can go to locals for a little bit all right, everybody, if you want to continue this conversation, we're going to cut this portion off over here, but we do have a locals. Uh, I don't have rob here to send you guys the link. I don't even know how to put it up, so you guys will just have to figure it out. We're gonna go over the locals, we're gonna chat, we're gonna, we're gonna discuss with the audience and on locals how they think this whole thing went and how much, how much pushback we're going to get from it. I don't really care anymore. Like I'm kind of comfortable with the fact that we probably you know, I like that you get invited to the theological round table and I'm kind of the outcast because at least a portion of our show gets to have like the highbrow conversations. I don't mind slinging mud here and there.
Speaker 4:Yeah Well, here and there. Yeah well, I mean honestly, the only reason that they didn't have you was because there was literally not enough spots that was part of stream.
Speaker 4:You can only put 10 people in you know, yeah, it was, it was, it was rough, but we're allowed to invite other people. So you and rob totally went. So what it's going to be, for you guys who haven't seen it, if you go to one peter five, once a month we're doing a trad round table of kind of like the bigger trad influencers etc. But it's going to be on different shows. So the next one's going to be on kennedy's show sometime this month and then after that it might be me or actually no, I think it's murray murray who's in the chair.
Speaker 2:We're actually invited on that one catholic family news when it goes on catholic family news. We're invited to that one.
Speaker 4:I'm like yeah, I was gonna say, you can come on mine.
Speaker 2:That's really cool yeah I tease and I make jokes and stuff, but I I'm pretty sure I will be welcome at least on a couple of that's, if I can even make it, because you guys do it during the day while I'm at work. We'll see how it works but um, he builds castles and digs moats, so make sure and like this video and go help them over on locals please, yeah, I, uh, I have to get out of new york, guys, I don't make Lofton money, that's for sure. Maybe I should start insulting Cardinals.
Speaker 4:Don't make Lofton money, I want that Lofton money.
Speaker 2:Yo, yeah, thank you, Murray. I appreciate that. I have a very good relationship with Matt Gaspers and Murray. So I'm pretty sure and Kennedy likes me, you know we'll see Kennedy's a bit of a modernist, I don't know I'm gonna have to straighten him out a little bit, but he's canadian, he can't help it.
Speaker 4:He's a bit of a modernist, see kennedy.
Speaker 2:I asked him to join us today. It is. It is hereditary, I think. Well, he said today's canada day, so he can't and I said with the jokes on you, because we're deporting loft into canada tonight, so that's gonna be his punishment, that's so funny man.
Speaker 4:I guess I'm just such an american that when I hear canada day, I'm like that's the gayest thing I've heard. I'm sorry, I know I probably shouldn't have said that, but I don't care, I stand by the statement. It doesn't sound right, I'm gonna do?
Speaker 2:I'm gonna kill the youtube feed. Um, I'm gonna kill the youtube feed. I think I'm gonna kill the facebook feed. I guess think I'm going to kill the Facebook feed. I guess I'll leave it up on Twitter and locals, so if you're watching on Twitter or locals, you guys can still hang. I'm just going to kill YouTube so that this doesn't turn into a two-hour video. All right, we will see you guys. Oh, you know what I'm going to do. I'm going to pull a Rob right now. I'm going to actually give you guys an outro.
Speaker 2:Let me see. Oh wow, here we go, I'm gonna try. All right, we will see you guys over on the other side. All right, I believe YouTube is gone. I'm going to kill. I still got to kill Facebook. Sorry, guys, if you're watching on Facebook, you're out. Get ready right now.
Speaker 3:And Facebook is gone. All of a sudden, the viewership dropped down to five. If you're watching on Facebook, you're out. Get ready right now. Facebook is gone.
Speaker 4:All of a sudden, the viewership dropped down to five.
Speaker 2:We should be on Locals and Twitter right now. If you guys are watching on Twitter, leave a comment. Let us know you're still there. If you're watching on Twitter. We had a pretty big audience for that too. Yeah, it was like 1200 something yeah, and there was at least like 500 on the youtube portion, which is higher than michael lofton's response to cardinal zed. He only got up to like 360.
Speaker 4:All right, yeah, twitter's still on, man um I personally think, I think I think people really just genuinely dislike him. But I feel like, like you know, kennedy, he was the first one, right, he was the first one to call michael lofton out, and it became a meme because it was michael lofton is a problem, and it was so funny and everyone kind of trashed him, because back then, you know, michael was kind of just starting to ramp up his attacks. But then it's like what was that like two years ago? Now we're all just like, yeah, michael lofton is not only a problem, he's freaking annoying. So so here's where kennedy went wrong.
Speaker 2:Here's where kennedy went wrong with that video. There was no humor in it. It wasn't funny that like he just he just straight out, like went scorched earth on lofton and it just came off as mean right. So I called kennedy after that stream and I was like, listen, if you're gonna do it again, have me on, because I had a couple of things that I wanted to say about lofton. Um, one of them was he was okay. So when he was, remember, when the debate about um, whether or not francis was against event, uh, proselytism, it was like proselytism.
Speaker 2:It was like proselytism versus evangelization. Lofton went through this document that Francis and Benedict wrote together and he was bringing up all this amazing stuff from that document about evangelization. But it was all written by Benedict.
Speaker 2:So when you fast forward to once that document between him and Benedict is gone. So he's like how could Francis be against evangelization? Look at this, look at this section where it says if you uh know somebody, uh, that is not catholic, don't come out and do you know? Do the protestant thing, where it's like uh, have you accepted jesus as your personal lord and savior? He said get to know the person, just be there for them and love the person, and then maybe they'll see the love you give and that will open them up to the fruit of the spirit Things like you know it was. It was very good advice for evangelizing a family member or a friend or something, except it wasn't written by Francis. So it's the same thing Loftin always does, which is highlight something that can be taken as Orthodox and ignoring all of the problematic things. So I called kennedy up and I was like dude, if you're gonna do it again, let me come on and I'll actually have some some things to say about it behind it. And then we wound up.
Speaker 2:I said something to lofton on twitter as a joke you are gay. I think it was something like no, no, no. What I said was in order to hold the same position as lofton does. The amount of cognitive dissonance dissonance required is the same as seeing a man in a dress and saying it's a woman. Right, like that's the level of cognitive dissonance. Like that you have to deny reality.
Speaker 2:And he does this whole stream about how I am against calling men in dresses, when I'm like, did you not even read what I said? Like I didn't say, I didn't accuse you of saying men and women are dresses. I said the level of cognitive dissonance to hold your positions on the papacy is that like. And he, just he, he went off and said you need to repent, you're going to hell, all these things. And I was like that's it, I'm going off on him. And we had that first video where I just lambasted him and uh, yeah, so that's that's how it kind of progressed. But kennedy was the first one to point out that lofton was a problem and everybody called him out as being uncharitable. And yes, I did. I did say stop, it's gay. That was where the meme comes from.
Speaker 4:And I made that meme, by the way. I have to take credit for that I didn't make that meme.
Speaker 2:You couldn't have picked it out of backdrop. It's the one from me speaking at that conference. Man it's so blurry.
Speaker 4:I know, I see it. Yeah, no, but you're right, it was Kennedy in the beginning, and then, I think it was after I forget when, but I think it was after the Sede debate on Pints with Aquinas, tim Gordon started to do some stuff with Michael because Michael was in the chat, like acting as if he was the moderator, demanding that, you know, everyone basically follow his own interpretation. So I think he started doing that, but then it was Most Holy Family Monastery, right interpretation. So I think he started doing that, and but then it was most holy family monastery, right, the. The diamond brothers came out with that video where they were like pope francis is clearly and they're not wrong about this that pope francis does not encourage proselytization, which is, according to francis's own words, trying to convince someone to become catholic. Right, trying to convince somebody to become catholic. And so therefore, uh, michael was like I can't find this clip. I think they're just making it up, it's slander. And then they just show the clip and they're like yeah, here's where he says it exactly. And Tim.
Speaker 2:Gordon was like Yo bro To say that he doesn't Mean Okay. So To say that proselytization is different from evangelization, you have to think about. Is there a current scenario where Catholics are forcing people to become Catholic? I mean, is there really a scenario like that? No, but what Francis really means is defeating someone through argumentation, like I think Francis really just wants, wants. Well, you know the, the fake quote by saint francis, the you know, preach the gospel, use words when necessary. The quote that actually was never said by saint francis. That's what he just wants. A person can become catholic if they see so much love coming from you that they want what you have. But you're not allowed to defeat them through argument. It's like what? Like I came to the church through argument plus.
Speaker 4:The plus the reality is is that now you know I'm getting a little bit more technical here, but I have a video, if you guys want to go watch it, on my show. I keep referencing my show. It's not like a broken clock, but there's a video I made called is the new ecclesiology neo-modernist? If you want to go check out for more detail, go watch that. But basically one thing that I cover in it is that you've heard of the phrase, anthony, the people of God, that came out of the council. That phrase, the people of God, yeah, okay. So when you go and you read Ratzinger, benedict XVI's commentary on that word in the council, he says that in the 1930s German theologians, so the liberals, thought that the term the mystical body of Christ, adjacent with the Catholic church is the church of Christ was too constricting, it was too negative. So they invented this phrase called the people of God and according to Ratzinger that means not just the Catholic church but all Protestants, all Orthodox, all atheists, all Jews, all Muslims. Everybody is in by degrees, the people of God. So this is where you get, of course, out of that the partial versus full communion idea. So I think in Francis's mind he takes this, runs with it and he's like okay, everybody is in some form or fashion related to God.
Speaker 4:Therefore, to try to convince somebody who's already related to God would be the, as he says, it proselytism is the great sin, it the poison against ecumenism. Why try to convince the orthodox to become catholic when they already have valabellism and and you know? I know I'll make some people mad here, but it's like your average catholic, I hear it all the time. They're like the orthodox have sacraments, valid sacraments, therefore they're in the church. No, that's really bad ecclesiology. You actually contradict a lot of major issues. Those elements of the church were stolen. That's the traditional language of the manuals. The sacraments were stolen, the scriptures were stolen. It's not that they're even Christians per se, because Pius XII is clear that only a Roman Catholic or a Catholic in general can technically be called a Christian. Other terms are thievery. My whole point with that, without going on a tangent, is that in Francis's mind, because he's an ecumenist, everybody is in some way related to God and therefore it's okay.
Speaker 2:And that's not even just Francis that thinks that way, because when I was catechizing my kids, the books that the diocese gave me explained it that way that the people of God are all those people of goodwill and that includes muslims, jews, atheists, everything so, and, and it was talking about that so that that now who's in the church, like who is the church, and it actually added those people like I would. I was sending uh, pictures of that to rob and jason and mark and I was losing my mind. I'm like I'm not teaching. This is why I home catechized my kids in the first place, because I knew if I had sent them to the actual diocesan program they'd have picked up all this nonsense. And I'm like I'm not teaching this garbage to my kids, do you still have those photos I.
Speaker 2:I have to look. I still have the books, so I'll just look through the books and I'll find it bro.
Speaker 4:Bro, send me some photos of that, because I'll totally make a follow-up video with those.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I got to look through them. So I think a lot of the language after the council is that way. It's always about ecumenism to the point of making Catholic doctrine irrelevant, and it's like if you don't actually believe this stuff, what is the If you don't believe there's no salvation outside the church, there's no divine command to go forth and baptize all nations because, well, they could be saved some other way it's just, it just makes the whole thing not work plus the thing is is that ecumenism is a great barrier between the catholic church and the mission of the church, which is not just to save souls, but the social kingship of christ, because it's like think about this, you guys.
Speaker 4:I don't know if you ever heard this, but in the great commission, when christ says go forth and teach all not peoples, but all nations to do whatsoever, I've commanded you. Christ is literally in that statement, saying go and make christian nations, yeah, in other words, be christian nationalists. Make a national religion of catholicism in the, in the, in the country, because you're baptizing everyone, you're ordering everyone to christ. Youism in the country, because you're baptizing everyone, you're ordering everyone to Christ, you're teaching them all and you're teaching the whole nation. How does that work, though, with? Let's build the Abrahamic family temple. We've got a church, we've got a mosque, we've got a synagogue this all goes back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, nick, this all goes back to the Danielic prophecy in I think it's either daniel 2 or daniel 9 where he talks about in those oh, it's daniel 2 he talks about. In those days, you know, nebuchadnezzar has the dream and this was that whole danielic mystery episode we did and he will make the you know the, the final empire, the roman empire, will be broken by a stone and it will turn into a mountain that covers the whole earth. Now the early church took that and saw that's's why we're Roman Catholic is because of that Danielic prophecy that the Roman empire would then become Christendom. So then that empire then becomes. The whole idea of Christendom is from that Danielic prophecy. So as the early church is spreading, they have this idea that there is one empire going throughout the world and the Roman Empire then becomes the Christian Empire and it goes throughout the world. Now that eventually becomes subsidiarity and it's as long as the church and the secular and the religious are still united in some way. You could have individual, you know authorities individual.
Speaker 4:You know authorities. Yeah, it's like flavors and disciplines that make sense for the local area but it's not denying any of the universal realities and truths.
Speaker 2:Exactly Now, once the Reformation happens, that whole idea of Christendom just kind of gets shattered and we're just in the remnants of that early Christendom that gets born out of the, you know, out of the Ascension, from the Ascension.
Speaker 4:Exactly Tim. Tim cast on the culture. Where we're talking about this, tim pool on Tim cast the culture were like a week ago or so he had Richard Spencer on off. No people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I actually watched that episode. Andrew Wilson was so good in that episode.
Speaker 4:He was monarchy. Is he? Is he Orthodox or is he Catholic? Yeah, he's Orthodox.
Speaker 2:He generally shows a lot of respect towards Catholics.
Speaker 4:He says a lot of yeah, that's what I got to from it. I thought that he was Orthodox, yeah, but yeah, like in those, we honestly should make a show about just that episode, cause that that was pretty good. But one of the things they bring up in that for people who haven't seen it is he rightly points out the reason that America is failing. We have many good things. I'm not. I'm not. I'm one of the most patriotic people you'll meet.
Speaker 4:But one of the reasons that we're failing is because so much of our system is built on enlightenment principles and the founders took for granted the kind of common Christian morality of the people and they thought, okay, well, everyone's kind of Christian, they're all moral at least. Therefore, let's give them these principles. But, as he says, the enlightenment principles naturally lead to degeneracy 1,000% and this is the reality. Is that the reason that the church has gone and accepted so much degeneracy is because we've accepted so many enlightenment principles from. I mean, just think about the classic right Freedom, equality, fraternity. Those three principles, what are they?
Speaker 4:Religious liberty, ecumenism, collegiality, like even this week, I'll tell you, I'll tell this story. This week I heard the most based and the most cringed sermon at the same time in my diocese and tlm and what happened was is the priest, new priest, gets up there, right? He gets up there and he says this week, right, july 4th, this week is national religious liberty week, national religious freedom week. It's important for us catholics to remember that we all should promote religious liberty in our country, for every religion. Religious liberty means being able to follow the religion according to your conscience. This is a good and Catholic thing. I'm in the Scola. People visibly see me hit my face.
Speaker 4:Gregory XVI literally calls religious liberty an insanity. It's condemned in the syllabus of errors what are you talking about? But then he transitions over that and he starts condemning abortion, contraception, homosexuality, pornography, just like goes off on that for like 40 minutes. It was a long sermon, pretty good, um. But I was like, okay, we wouldn't even have any of those things if we hadn't have accepted all this enlightenment principle. I mean, think about pornography for a second. Pornography got in to the public square in the 1970s and 80s. I believe it was, because the argument was this is freedom of speech.
Speaker 2:First amendment yeah, they put.
Speaker 4:They put larry flint on trial and he winds up yeah, you probably remember that because you were like what you were in your 30s, when all that was going on I'm born at 82.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, the you have to realize, like the idea of religious liberty in the modern context, like god does give us all the freedom to choose him or not, but what the church was saying when they said that, like you can't have religious liberty, they were saying, like nations can't just allow satanism to pop up. Like you can't, you can't allow religious liberty. They were saying, like nations can't just allow Satanism to pop up. Like you can't, you can't allow. Like in the public square. Like error has no rights. The only thing that actually has a right is the truth.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, the individual obviously has. God gives us all freedom to choose him. He doesn't force himself upon us. But it's the same thing as when I think we talked about this last episode that you were on, where, when Obamacare came out and the religious sisters were told they had to pay for abortifacients or birth control, the bishops went out and preached religious liberty instead of preaching on the evil of birth control. And this is the mindset that all of our bishops have now, and it's actually leading to the rot of the Catholic conscience because we have taken Americanism and put it above Catholicism.
Speaker 4:No, exactly.
Speaker 4:The reality is this is that people have the obligation, according to the natural law, to worship God in the way in which he's decreed, and so the problem with religious liberty is this we only have the right to do that which is morally right.
Speaker 4:So, as an example, I have the ability to lie, I have the ability to procure an abortion, but I don't have the right to do those things. I only have the right to do that which is morally right. Same thing I have the ability to worship in any way I want, but I only have the right to do that which is morally right. Same thing I have the ability to worship in any way I want, but I only have the right to do that which is objectively right, which is to obey the Catholic faith, to follow the Catholic faith. How is it helpful, then, to get up into pulpits and say we need to, because we're so passive now that we need to promote religious liberty, and say that the Muslim, that the Jew, et cetera, should be able to get up and to pray and break the first commandment, and they have a right to break the first commandment? So how does the first commandment and the first amendment work in tangent? That's my issue.
Speaker 2:Because, as Americans. So if you look at all of our wars in the Middle East, the reason they all failed is because they were the new Great Commission, which was we're going to go spread democracy and not go. We're going to go spread the Christian faith. If they had gone in and spread the Christian faith, every one of those countries right now will be stable Christian nations. So like if you look at early on a colonialism, everybody knocks colonialism. But early colonialism, like the British empire, went in and set Christianity up in all these nations and they built beautiful architecture and they had a moral law to live by. They didn't force, baptize people but I do not.
Speaker 4:I do not apologize for my conquistador heritage, because I do have conquistadors. They came over and they spread the faith.
Speaker 2:Dude, I work with Spanish guys that one of them is a seventh day adventist. Yeah, one of them is just a generic protestant, and these are all guys from south america, like honduras and ecuador and things like that. I lamb. I'm like do you know nothing of your heritage at all? Do you not have a clue what, what, like, where your roots are? Man Like you, allow we we really America dismantled second Christendom in Central and South America. It was a hundred percent America not wanting the church to have power and authority in Central and South America. So they spread democracy, just like they did in the Middle East, and it undid Christendom and all of it is because they want this what we're seeing come to fruition now, this globalist agenda without religion, and it's just going to get messier and messier as time goes on messier and messier, as time goes on, a lot of it was the vatican allowing it, essentially because, again, through the council, you've seen since then, protestantism has blown up in south america, mexico, etc.
Speaker 4:You've even seen, like, islam blow up in mexico, etc. Why is that the case? Europe, yeah, it's, it's. It's all these former christian nations which are accepting all of these things. So this again, this is the insanity that I see, you know, I guess, if you will, to take it back to 180 with Lofton is that Lofton is defending this system tooth and nail and saying if you don't get how it's, perfectly in conformity with what came before, you're insane, you're off your rocker. The reality is is that we have entire nations which are now mission nations. Again, like Europe is a mission territory. Think about going back to like again, 1924, 100 years ago, and being like yeah, uh, europe's a mission nation. They would be like well, yeah, there's definitely a lot of bads in in europe right now. There's a lot of secularism and liberalism, etc. But like, yeah, we got churches on every corner etc.
Speaker 2:No, it doesn't matter, now we're a major issue you have to realize one of the most insidious things that francis actually pushes is uh oh, no way you're a south bronx girl, get out of here. I like even more now. We were across the street from somali muslims. They did a loud speaker call to prayer at midnight. I called the precincts and they said they could do nothing wow, that's crazy, just wait just wait until they uh open up a sharia court in the south bronx.
Speaker 4:They will. I mean like like you think about how they have it in dearborn right, especially during pride month. Like people wanted to go and put a all of their pride stuff up at the local schools and the muslims like we're gonna throw you out and this is just. We're just sitting back here chuckling saying yeah, it really goes to show you how dumb communists are. They thought classical liberalism and Islam were going to just coexist harmoniously.
Speaker 2:This is one of the most insidious things that Francis pushes is the immigration thing, because you are actually inviting in people that will destroy your children's souls. I mean, it's making atheism more rampant, it's making Islam spread. It's making everything but the Catholic faith being instilled into your children. It is putting every obstacle in the lives of your family members and children's lives because they're seeing Dude. One of the most common things atheists will say is well, look how many religions there are. Everybody just believes whatever they want to believe. How can anyone claim that they're right? They only think that because they don't see a unified Christian culture around them. If everyone around them had this unified Christian culture, that thought wouldn't even pop in their heads. They would just say well, this is clearly the right way. And when you look at places that don't have Christ as King, look at how they treat people Like. If you look to the Middle East east you'll see the crucifix not used as something to worship. You will see the crucifix used as a weapon of depravity to actually crucify people.
Speaker 4:and and it would change the way you actually viewed what is a good religion versus what is not yeah, not to mention the fact that, again, atheists, they haven't stopped to think about the reality that if every single culture is religious, then something has to have. Uh, put that there, if you will, in man, it isn't just born out of nothing. But yeah, you're absolutely right. And uh to uh this comment right here about the muslims yeah, they're creating a majority neighborhood. I'm not surprised at all and this is why, again, like people have been starting to share it recently. But, uh, the comment, it's an old video.
Speaker 4:I don't know if you've seen an anthony of archbishop lefebvre. He's talking about the muslim immigration to france and he's like the muslims are pouring in here and this place is going to be taken over before you know it. 1000 partially. Again, why I support the society of saint pious that's in so much is because they have preserved the two doctrine and they're going to mission territory. Did you guys know that the sspx has chapels in the middle east? No, they have chapels in the middle east. They have chapels in india. They have chapels in japan. They have chapels in korea. They have chapels all over the philippines, all over africa, all over south america. They are expanding and they're doing mission work hardcore. Meanwhile, we are being told that again, if you can't get fiducia to line up with leviticus, then you're insane dude we're in trouble.
Speaker 2:That's why I think the whole system's coming collapsing down soon.
Speaker 4:I think you're gonna have church and state all just pull apart and something new has to be born from it yeah, I think that what you will see is this will be interesting the US Trump is going to slow the decay. He's going to slow the decay and if he has a successor, right, maybe they can slow it some further. But at some point it's going to have to snap how that will snap. I obviously pray that it will be like a peaceful way, ideally right. We have a national repentance and we all just literally go on our faces and weep for god's mercy. That would be, that'd be ideal. We should honestly all pray for that to take place, but more likely than not, because of man's nature, you'll see either a civil war or be some type of like. When the soviet union collapsed, they all broke up right into all those little countries. That wouldn't surprise me yeah, I wouldn't see.
Speaker 4:It wouldn't surprise me if you saw something like that, but that might be interesting because you might actually at that point, with how conservative the young right-wing population is like it's not neocons, they're so conservative you might legitimately see maybe in a small pocket a monarchy form.
Speaker 2:You never know um, all right, we'll ask this last question, then we're going to hop off. So, uh, do you think that the eastern right catholic churches should be worried about losing their own liturgical traditions from this, I guess from this document that's coming?
Speaker 4:oh from the yeah from well, I would say that yes and no. So people have to. This goes to to show you, perhaps, where the conversation has led. People assume that Vatican II only changed the Roman Rite. That's not true. When you go back and you look at the 16 documents, one of the documents actually had to do with the Eastern Catholics and the Eastern Catholic Rites were changed in two ways. Some of them were delatinized, and actually it's interesting If you would have asked the conservative blocs of Catholics.
Speaker 4:They did not want a delatinized. And actually it's interesting if you would have asked the conservative blocks of catholics. They did not want a delatinization. The modernists wanted a delatinization because they wanted to get their rights closer to orthodox, which fits a whole with the whole people of god unity thing, and that's why today the, for instance, the ukrainian catholic church, they specifically tell the priests not to try to evangelize to Orthodox, which is insane. That's why there's the SSPX, eastern right Catholics over there that are not obeying that. However, on the other hand, you do see tendencies with Rome at the moment of trying to continue to push that, and so I do think that you won't see like a Novus Ordo pop up, but you will see the degradation, I mean the marionite right today is nothing like it was even 50 years ago.
Speaker 2:It's been so gutted that situation is very strange, because francis is actually siding with the traditional side. It's a weird one, right? That's that whole thing. So, all right, all right. So we're gonna wrap this one this. This was an interesting one, man. I'm curious to see how people react to it. Uh, modern papers. I'm able to see your comments on my twitter feed. I don't see them. Like, I can't highlight your comments for some reason, I don't know what. Like I guess, when people leave comments on twitter, I can't, you know, highlight all of them but it's showing that we have a lot of people watching man. So probably.
Speaker 4:What will happen is you will get a bunch of agreement in the comment section. You'll get like a handful of lofton's groupies showing up complaining and that will be it. And if lofton does make a response video, it will be. You're uncharitable, you're not nuanced, you can't read my heart and guess what. We'll make another response video, another meme and guess what we need. You guys, if you guys want I'm not on Twitter, right, but Anthony's clearly on Twitter so everyone make a Lofton meme today and send it to Anthony through DM and maybe we'll put it up.
Speaker 2:You never know, guys, share the show man. It's show man. It's the best way to make it grow. Like, subscribe and share the show on youtube, specifically because that's the best place to do it for us. Um, hopefully, the the twitter, um the twitter show like works out too, because if we ever get banned off youtube, that's probably where we'll direct everything. But all right, man, we will see you guys tomorrow night. Uh, we have patrick coffin on tomorrow night. I don't think nick's joining us for that one, so everybody that's not joining us.
Speaker 2:Enjoy your 4th of July If you don't join us tomorrow, and we'll see you next time. Thank you.
Speaker 4:Adios.
